WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Ok here's a thought. Why include the "play for fun" part at all? You're saying that's "part of your rules", which you hope to keep objective and "simple" whenever possible, but "fun" is arguably one of online gaming administration's most subjective measurements, no?
There's no audience that will tell you with a straight face that they *don't* play "for fun", right? Once you rule out that audience (which doesn't exist), then you're left with "fun" being nothing more than a subjective and high-maintenance euphemism for "play to beat the opposition" ("play to win"), right? <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't really disable play for fun (though I think playing to win is fun), as part of my server rules is to have fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is it not fair to reword what you said there as follows:
"I can't administratively sanction people who don't place competitive victory as their highest priority (what I call "fun"), as, for some players, "playing for fun" doesn't include placing competitive victory as the highest priority."
Don't you save yourself some headache by ditching the "play for fun" language altogether, opting instead on a more pure pitch of the "play to win" angle, since that's really and truly what makes your offering unique (while "play to win" doesn't, at all)?
I prefer to leave the "have fun, play to win" statement in there because while a majority of competitive players have fun competing in their game, some don't.
It is a pub, I want it to be competitive in a sense where high skill players aren't restricted by gameplay deterrents. Part of the fun for that group is playing at their highest level. But bottom line is, its a public server, meaning any variable of skill levels can play there. Hopefully as the server grows people who do not want to max out their gaming will be weeded out, and those who want to compete and have fun can do so in a positive envoirnment. The ideal is to have everyone on the server share that mindset, the realistic side is that there are going to be randoms and regulars just like other servers. I just want to get enough regulars so that the game quality is significantly raised from the average pub server.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
You say "weeded out" as if there's some sort of test or trial to see if you're <i>good enough</i> to play on your server. Why dont you just say "no pub scrubs" instead? you give out the same message it's just worded so people can understand they're not wanted unless they're playing to win.
The minimum skill level lies within the player who plays there.
I predict one or two things will happen:
1. The player does not fit the idealology, and gets frustrated against those who will play to win, and will eventually leave the server.
2. The player adopts the idealology, still gets beat, but is learning. The community (since its based on positive affect) will help the player grow and become more skilled (think of like an NSlearn type of thing).
I will not ban a person who is trying is just playing to play. I won't have to. If the server I run runs true to the theory I have then I will not have to do anything. The player determines whether they are right for the server, not the other way around.
Saying "no pub scrubs welcome" will not be effective because most people who are scrubs do not realize that they are (think of the pub-allstar that just dominates their particular regular server but the results do not generalize to other servers/players).
Also, everyone will have a clean slate minus steambanned players, as cheating results in a permanent ban.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
edited October 2006
The minimum skill level lies within the player who plays there.
I predict one or two things will happen: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1. The player does not fit the idealology, and gets frustrated against those who will play to win, and will eventually leave the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Player joins, gets frustrated by all the higher skilled players with inflated ego's exploiting and generally doing lame things just to win. player leaves. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 2. The player adopts the idealology, still gets beat, but is learning. The community (since its based on positive affect) will help the player grow and become more skilled (think of like an NSlearn type of thing).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
next player sees same thing but wants to be just like them. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I will not ban a person who is trying is just playing to play. I won't have to. If the server I run runs true to the theory I have then I will not have to do anything. The player determines whether they are right for the server, not the other way around. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't the goat of a community to make a player feel welcomed whatever the skill level? sounds to me like you're just going to let all the "pro" players run your average joe out of the server. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Saying "no pub scrubs welcome" will not be effective because most people who are scrubs do not realize that they are (think of the pub-allstar that just dominates their particular regular server but the results do not generalize to other servers/players).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever you say, it's just going to have the same effect.
The pros will run out those without the mindset of "play to win".
The lesser skilled players that <i><b>ACCEPT</b></i> the idealology will learn how to improve with the guidance of the admins and the players. They are welcome. Others than do not want to accept that can move on to another server, a point which was stressed earlier.
Your making another generalization where there is skill there is ego. If any player disrespects another player they will be dealt with. This falls into the concept of <b><i>POSITIVE AFFECT</i></b>, another point that has been stressed a few times.
either way Sonic, its clear that you choose not to understand what I am trying to do and continue to be bitter towards the competitive community for whatever reason.
I will ignore further posts from you, as conversing with you is about as fulfilling as trying to convince a KKK member that racism is wrong.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
How is it possible for somebody to run themselfs off a server? Have you ever actually seen a "pro" player that doesn't 'play to win' by any means nessesary?
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1570968:date=Oct 23 2006, 06:40 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 23 2006, 06:40 PM) [snapback]1570968[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your making another generalization where there is skill there is ego. If any player disrespects another player they will be dealt with. This falls into the concept of <b><i>POSITIVE AFFECT</i></b>, another point that has been stressed a few times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is key. I'm reminded of Grendel's quote from back in the day (two years ago almost to the day): <!--quoteo(post=0:date=Oct 2004:name=Grendel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grendel @ Oct 2004)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the necessary confidence required to play competitively frequently displays itself in the teenage psyche as total arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I have found that to be all too true. I'm certain it's largely to blame for CAL-NS' struggle to thrive.
I think that one of your community's greatest contributions to whatever game(s) it hosts will be to create an environment not only in which players can enjoy the soft warmth of "growth-enabling" (or whatever) admins, but where those same players, of all skill levels, can come to find peers which treat them as peers, and as friends.
For the record I am not guarenteeing that this community will be successful, I am just using previous evidence from what I seen to attempt to change the status quo a little bit. I feel if you will that I have something valuable to offer to those who want high level play in a pub. Maybe the demand is not there, maybe it is. I can only go my past information, as well present research done now.
We will see in 2007
If there are no more comments/insight, I feel this topic has served its purpose.
I also disagree with the competitive attitude being the downfall of CAL NS. Attrition is an unfortunate but prominant function in every single online game. Some people simply choose not to play anymore. Attrition is only a problem when there are not enough new players to replace the ones that leave. CAL NS has been "recycle mode" since around season 5 (i.e. many top teams were just reformed teams such as Terror, Exigent, Reflect etc...) That is, that was the beginning of attrition without significant replacement. It didn't really have a major effect however until the NS forums went down. Attrition, then started to significantly effect not only competitive play, but public play as well too. Attrition destroyed several communities, such as Lunixmonster and Fr31ns, and with each month less and less players were playing NS. Server numbers dwindled down significantly as there were no new influx of players to fill these servers to justify their existence. Only a few servers were actually able to produce the numbers neccesary to survive (i.e. Tactical Gamer). If I had to blame anyone it would be the developers for having the forums down for over a year.
I also feel if this new version of the game disappoints that it will result in more attrition simply because it has been an extremely long time since an update has come out, and loyal fans who have been waiting all this time will be very upset (justifiably so).
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
So, it's around six months later FireWater. How is your theory translating into practice? I played a bit on your Dystopia Binary Clash just after 1.0 came out and it seemed to be working okay, but the server is usually empty now when I consider playing dystopia. Probably a function of Dystopia's low player numbers.
Actually, in a related question. Why is nobody playing source mods? Some of the mods are really good, but even the most popular of them barely scrape 3million player minutes a month.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Good lord. It's been six months? Man... you have a kid and everything becomes a blur.
I don't play Source mods (much; well, I hardly game at all until this lil' tax deduction starts sleeping on a regular schedule <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />) because they just don't perform well (I'm sure tweaking would help) out of the box. I've only played a handful (CSS, ZP, DYS, etc).
That, and I'm one of these guys who kinda gets happy with a game and sticks with it for a while. Sometimes 5 years at a time, it would seem. :/
I'm curious to hear (ideally from its members -- the more grass-roots-level the better) how/where the following idea has manifested itself in/at 3pg during its first six months: <!--QuoteBegin-Wyzcrak+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that one of your community's greatest contributions to whatever game(s) it hosts will be to create an environment not only in which players can enjoy the soft warmth of "growth-enabling" (or whatever) admins, but where those same players, of all skill levels, can come to find peers which treat them as peers, and as friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
There's no audience that will tell you with a straight face that they *don't* play "for fun", right? Once you rule out that audience (which doesn't exist), then you're left with "fun" being nothing more than a subjective and high-maintenance euphemism for "play to beat the opposition" ("play to win"), right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't really disable play for fun (though I think playing to win is fun), as part of my server rules is to have fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is it not fair to reword what you said there as follows:
"I can't administratively sanction people who don't place competitive victory as their highest priority (what I call "fun"), as, for some players, "playing for fun" doesn't include placing competitive victory as the highest priority."
Don't you save yourself some headache by ditching the "play for fun" language altogether, opting instead on a more pure pitch of the "play to win" angle, since that's really and truly what makes your offering unique (while "play to win" doesn't, at all)?
It is a pub, I want it to be competitive in a sense where high skill players aren't restricted by gameplay deterrents. Part of the fun for that group is playing at their highest level. But bottom line is, its a public server, meaning any variable of skill levels can play there. Hopefully as the server grows people who do not want to max out their gaming will be weeded out, and those who want to compete and have fun can do so in a positive envoirnment. The ideal is to have everyone on the server share that mindset, the realistic side is that there are going to be randoms and regulars just like other servers. I just want to get enough regulars so that the game quality is significantly raised from the average pub server.
So I think "Have fun, play to win" will stay.
I predict one or two things will happen:
1. The player does not fit the idealology, and gets frustrated against those who will play to win, and will eventually leave the server.
2. The player adopts the idealology, still gets beat, but is learning. The community (since its based on positive affect) will help the player grow and become more skilled (think of like an NSlearn type of thing).
I will not ban a person who is trying is just playing to play. I won't have to. If the server I run runs true to the theory I have then I will not have to do anything. The player determines whether they are right for the server, not the other way around.
Saying "no pub scrubs welcome" will not be effective because most people who are scrubs do not realize that they are (think of the pub-allstar that just dominates their particular regular server but the results do not generalize to other servers/players).
Also, everyone will have a clean slate minus steambanned players, as cheating results in a permanent ban.
I predict one or two things will happen:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
1. The player does not fit the idealology, and gets frustrated against those who will play to win, and will eventually leave the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Player joins, gets frustrated by all the higher skilled players with inflated ego's exploiting and generally doing lame things just to win. player leaves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
2. The player adopts the idealology, still gets beat, but is learning. The community (since its based on positive affect) will help the player grow and become more skilled (think of like an NSlearn type of thing).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
next player sees same thing but wants to be just like them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I will not ban a person who is trying is just playing to play. I won't have to. If the server I run runs true to the theory I have then I will not have to do anything. The player determines whether they are right for the server, not the other way around.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't the goat of a community to make a player feel welcomed whatever the skill level? sounds to me like you're just going to let all the "pro" players run your average joe out of the server.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Saying "no pub scrubs welcome" will not be effective because most people who are scrubs do not realize that they are (think of the pub-allstar that just dominates their particular regular server but the results do not generalize to other servers/players).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever you say, it's just going to have the same effect.
The lesser skilled players that <i><b>ACCEPT</b></i> the idealology will learn how to improve with the guidance of the admins and the players. They are welcome. Others than do not want to accept that can move on to another server, a point which was stressed earlier.
Your making another generalization where there is skill there is ego. If any player disrespects another player they will be dealt with. This falls into the concept of <b><i>POSITIVE AFFECT</i></b>, another point that has been stressed a few times.
either way Sonic, its clear that you choose not to understand what I am trying to do and continue to be bitter towards the competitive community for whatever reason.
I will ignore further posts from you, as conversing with you is about as fulfilling as trying to convince a KKK member that racism is wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Oct 2004:name=Grendel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grendel @ Oct 2004)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the necessary confidence required to play competitively frequently displays itself in the teenage psyche as total arrogance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I have found that to be all too true. I'm certain it's largely to blame for CAL-NS' struggle to thrive.
I think that one of your community's greatest contributions to whatever game(s) it hosts will be to create an environment not only in which players can enjoy the soft warmth of "growth-enabling" (or whatever) admins, but where those same players, of all skill levels, can come to find peers which treat them as peers, and as friends.
For the record I am not guarenteeing that this community will be successful, I am just using previous evidence from what I seen to attempt to change the status quo a little bit. I feel if you will that I have something valuable to offer to those who want high level play in a pub. Maybe the demand is not there, maybe it is. I can only go my past information, as well present research done now.
We will see in 2007
If there are no more comments/insight, I feel this topic has served its purpose.
I also disagree with the competitive attitude being the downfall of CAL NS. Attrition is an unfortunate but prominant function in every single online game. Some people simply choose not to play anymore. Attrition is only a problem when there are not enough new players to replace the ones that leave. CAL NS has been "recycle mode" since around season 5 (i.e. many top teams were just reformed teams such as Terror, Exigent, Reflect etc...) That is, that was the beginning of attrition without significant replacement. It didn't really have a major effect however until the NS forums went down. Attrition, then started to significantly effect not only competitive play, but public play as well too. Attrition destroyed several communities, such as Lunixmonster and Fr31ns, and with each month less and less players were playing NS. Server numbers dwindled down significantly as there were no new influx of players to fill these servers to justify their existence. Only a few servers were actually able to produce the numbers neccesary to survive (i.e. Tactical Gamer). If I had to blame anyone it would be the developers for having the forums down for over a year.
I also feel if this new version of the game disappoints that it will result in more attrition simply because it has been an extremely long time since an update has come out, and loyal fans who have been waiting all this time will be very upset (justifiably so).
But then again I could be wrong.
Good luck, regardless.
Actually, in a related question. Why is nobody playing source mods? Some of the mods are really good, but even the most popular of them barely scrape 3million player minutes a month.
I agree with everything Wyz said, except for answer 1. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<b>1. What server community(s) do/did you belong to?</b>
TacticalGamer.com, since 2005.
Back in the 2.1(?) days, p3dr0's hungry hunrgy onos.
I don't play Source mods (much; well, I hardly game at all until this lil' tax deduction starts sleeping on a regular schedule <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />) because they just don't perform well (I'm sure tweaking would help) out of the box. I've only played a handful (CSS, ZP, DYS, etc).
That, and I'm one of these guys who kinda gets happy with a game and sticks with it for a while. Sometimes 5 years at a time, it would seem. :/
I'm curious to hear (ideally from its members -- the more grass-roots-level the better) how/where the following idea has manifested itself in/at 3pg during its first six months:
<!--QuoteBegin-Wyzcrak+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that one of your community's greatest contributions to whatever game(s) it hosts will be to create an environment not only in which players can enjoy the soft warmth of "growth-enabling" (or whatever) admins, but where those same players, of all skill levels, can come to find peers which treat them as peers, and as friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->