It's just that even when the controls are well done, controllers are still a clunky input method for first person shooters compared to mouse and keyboard. Put simply, if two people of equal skill were to fight each other, one with a controller, one with mouse and keyboard, I feel confident saying that the player with mouse and keyboard would score an overwhelming victory.
We've had all that before, of course, and nobody is really challenging that. It is just frustrating for me as a PC player to see perfectly good first person shooters being wasted on inferior input devices.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
We'll get to find out with Shadowrun, which will allow 360 and pc gamers to play on the same servers.
Anwyay, my brother is fairly good at halo2, and it amazes me how well he can play that game with just a controller. He will concede that the mouse and KB is superior, but not by too much.
Shadowrun sounds interesting in that regard. It would be even better if we could tell which of the console players are using a controller, and which are using mouse and keyboard. I think we could get some very interesting statistics that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1576601:date=Nov 13 2006, 09:07 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Nov 13 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]1576601[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Shadowrun sounds interesting in that regard. It would be even better if we could tell which of the console players are using a controller, and which are using mouse and keyboard. I think we could get some very interesting statistics that way. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be the only case were using a controller instead of mouse + keyboard would matter, in my opinion. Console shooters are built around using the controller as an input method, and the other guys you're playing against are in the same boat regarding controls.
As long as the difficulty is right and the controls <b>feel</b> good, I have no objection to playing FPS's with controllers, even though I'm vastly more accurate with a mouse combo.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
One thing I might add to this controls argument: The mouse/keyboard combos for 360s, or really just about every console period(I wonder if the PS3 will be like this), is the kind of thing where its not even ideal for a mouse anyway- the input method is one where the analog stick is little more than a D-Pad thats a bit easier to control, so you're essentially still moving in the same 8 directions, not to mention that sensitivity settings on them are usually so bad that you could move the mouse a few millimeters and the game wouldn't pick it up at all- not the hardware's fault(the mouse, I mean), but purely the console just not being made to pick up that kind of input.
The thing is, playing an fps with a controller feels like walking on crutches to me. So IF I were to buy a 360 and play Gears of War on it, I still wouldn't enjoy the game as much as I would on the PC.
To me, it's a matter of getting used to it. Before I got an Xbox (and later, a 360), I had only played PC games. The first time I played Halo, I couldn't aim at all. Eventually, I just got used to aiming with sticks. I'm fine with it now. That's not to say that a mouse isn't more accurate than sticks (I'm leaving out the keyboard, because I've never felt a noticable difference between the two); it's just that playing with a controller isn't exactly the crippling input method that you make it out to be, given enough learning time.
<!--quoteo(post=1575142:date=Nov 9 2006, 03:50 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Nov 9 2006, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1575142[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's in Bellevue, a few blocks from the library (assuming you've been to the library).
That said, I watched the 12 multiplayer gameplay videos that were released before this came out. It looks very pretty, yes, but with a console controller you can't hit the broad side of a barn. The player would sneak up behind two enemies and open up with a shotgun, and he'd miss all his shots. The two guys would see him and return fire with their machineguns, and they'd all miss. Then all involved dove for cover to reload. It's basically hilarious and sad at the same time.
In another video, the guy has his back against a wall, and on the other side of the wall there's an enemy. They both edge towards the doorway and jump out at the same time. They're about three feet apart and they both fire, AND THEY BOTH MISS. Then they went back behind each side of the wall. Eventually I think the guy killed the other one with a chainsaw, but really, it's ridiculous. I'll stick with the PC and my mouse and keyboard when it comes to shooters. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that bad. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
Playing COD2 on the 360 on the Veteran difficulty with a joypad has NEVER been a problem. Not once have I thought to myself "Argh, I could've used a mouse here".
To be honest I've always been a tad underwhelmed with both control systems for FPS games. On keyboard and mouse your aim/look may be precise and smooth but your character's motion is fairly clunky and if you have a joypad your aim won't be 100% as good as with a mouse but moving your actual character around is a joy.
therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a fun note, I wonder how the wii controls will be for FPSing...
Oh. And though it's not super relevant isn't gears of war a Third-Person Shooter anyhoo? :3
<!--quoteo(post=1576728:date=Nov 13 2006, 10:02 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Nov 13 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]1576728[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To be honest I've always been a tad underwhelmed with both control systems for FPS games. On keyboard and mouse your aim/look may be precise and smooth but your character's motion is fairly clunky and if you have a joypad your aim won't be 100% as good as with a mouse but moving your actual character around is a joy.
therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a fun note, I wonder how the wii controls will be for FPSing...
Oh. And though it's not super relevant isn't gears of war a Third-Person Shooter anyhoo? :3 <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1576766:date=Nov 13 2006, 04:55 PM:name=Exploder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Exploder @ Nov 13 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1576766[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Jup, it's a Third-Person Shooter not an FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shhh, you're going to break the discussion status quo. It'll break out into "Are First Person Shooters or Third Person Shooters better." And we just can't have that.
I think the Wii aiming system may well end up being better than a mouse...I mean, just look at the CoD3 'ironsight' aiming stuff you've got to do. That's like...actual skill needed to aim. No more of that point and click, now it's hold two connected controller parts up, line them up and then press.
...The key to making FPS/TPS more aiming friendly is to make them so complicated that no one is capable of shooting - it will solve all of our problems!
(Really, the Wii aiming looks cool, even if you get to look like a moron when you do it)
Well, like every clanner tells me, "just get better".
I could see that pc gamers have an advantage against comps with the kbm, but against other players, I don't care. As much as you think you're handicapped with a joystick, you have to realize the other guy who got his brains blasted is also using a joystick. You're on equal footing.
And a stick just feels better. Carpal tunnel anyone?
<!--quoteo(post=1576811:date=Nov 14 2006, 01:25 AM:name=UltimaGecko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UltimaGecko @ Nov 14 2006, 01:25 AM) [snapback]1576811[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Shhh, you're going to break the discussion status quo. It'll break out into "Are First Person Shooters or Third Person Shooters better." And we just can't have that. [...] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Games where you can switch back and forth are better. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I always had a love-hate relationship with that boss in Super Metroid. If you time it poorly, the fight can end up taking forever. But the finale is excellent.
<!--quoteo(post=1576728:date=Nov 13 2006, 05:02 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Nov 13 2006, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1576728[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I read somewhere the guy in <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=306950722938597270" target="_blank">this</a> movie does that.
Ima go get myself a trailer for GoW, I'm not a controller/gamepad fan either, I got owned in my first Halo fight ><.
My first halo fight consisted me and another friend who hadn't played before taking on two guys who'd owned it for a month or two.
I think it ended with both of them being very displeased with us. I'm not sure if it's the fact they failed miserably to kill either of us at all or that we'd beaten the snot out of them while still casually looking around, getting used to the controls and learning the map :p
The strongest memory of that match is the guy using the jeep that he'd intially taken to try and run me over instead using it to escape from me ^^;
I've played consoles for as long as i can remember though and so had my friend :D
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
edited November 2006
I played GOW co-op at my friends house the other day; and it made me say "Halo has co-op?"
Honestly; its that good. We hopped on live and played online also; that was also alot of fun. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Comments
We've had all that before, of course, and nobody is really challenging that. It is just frustrating for me as a PC player to see perfectly good first person shooters being wasted on inferior input devices.
Anwyay, my brother is fairly good at halo2, and it amazes me how well he can play that game with just a controller. He will concede that the mouse and KB is superior, but not by too much.
Shadowrun sounds interesting in that regard. It would be even better if we could tell which of the console players are using a controller, and which are using mouse and keyboard. I think we could get some very interesting statistics that way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be the only case were using a controller instead of mouse + keyboard would matter, in my opinion. Console shooters are built around using the controller as an input method, and the other guys you're playing against are in the same boat regarding controls.
As long as the difficulty is right and the controls <b>feel</b> good, I have no objection to playing FPS's with controllers, even though I'm vastly more accurate with a mouse combo.
It's in Bellevue, a few blocks from the library (assuming you've been to the library).
That said, I watched the 12 multiplayer gameplay videos that were released before this came out. It looks very pretty, yes, but with a console controller you can't hit the broad side of a barn. The player would sneak up behind two enemies and open up with a shotgun, and he'd miss all his shots. The two guys would see him and return fire with their machineguns, and they'd all miss. Then all involved dove for cover to reload. It's basically hilarious and sad at the same time.
In another video, the guy has his back against a wall, and on the other side of the wall there's an enemy. They both edge towards the doorway and jump out at the same time. They're about three feet apart and they both fire, AND THEY BOTH MISS. Then they went back behind each side of the wall. Eventually I think the guy killed the other one with a chainsaw, but really, it's ridiculous. I'll stick with the PC and my mouse and keyboard when it comes to shooters.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that bad. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
Playing COD2 on the 360 on the Veteran difficulty with a joypad has NEVER been a problem. Not once have I thought to myself "Argh, I could've used a mouse here".
therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a fun note, I wonder how the wii controls will be for FPSing...
Oh. And though it's not super relevant isn't gears of war a Third-Person Shooter anyhoo? :3
To be honest I've always been a tad underwhelmed with both control systems for FPS games. On keyboard and mouse your aim/look may be precise and smooth but your character's motion is fairly clunky and if you have a joypad your aim won't be 100% as good as with a mouse but moving your actual character around is a joy.
therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
On a fun note, I wonder how the wii controls will be for FPSing...
Oh. And though it's not super relevant isn't gears of war a Third-Person Shooter anyhoo? :3
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jup, it's a Third-Person Shooter not an FPS.
Jup, it's a Third-Person Shooter not an FPS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shhh, you're going to break the discussion status quo. It'll break out into "Are First Person Shooters or Third Person Shooters better." And we just can't have that.
I think the Wii aiming system may well end up being better than a mouse...I mean, just look at the CoD3 'ironsight' aiming stuff you've got to do. That's like...actual skill needed to aim. No more of that point and click, now it's hold two connected controller parts up, line them up and then press.
...The key to making FPS/TPS more aiming friendly is to make them so complicated that no one is capable of shooting - it will solve all of our problems!
(Really, the Wii aiming looks cool, even if you get to look like a moron when you do it)
I could see that pc gamers have an advantage against comps with the kbm, but against other players, I don't care. As much as you think you're handicapped with a joystick, you have to realize the other guy who got his brains blasted is also using a joystick. You're on equal footing.
And a stick just feels better. Carpal tunnel anyone?
Shhh, you're going to break the discussion status quo. It'll break out into "Are First Person Shooters or Third Person Shooters better." And we just can't have that. [...]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games where you can switch back and forth are better. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Good job.
I've had that damn song stuck in my head all day long
Jup, it's a Third-Person Shooter not an FPS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have to aim your weapons so it doesn't matter if its over the shoulder or first person
...
therefore maybe the best control system for FPS is a one-hand joypad and mouse? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I read somewhere the guy in <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=306950722938597270" target="_blank">this</a> movie does that.
Ima go get myself a trailer for GoW, I'm not a controller/gamepad fan either, I got owned in my first Halo fight ><.
I think it ended with both of them being very displeased with us. I'm not sure if it's the fact they failed miserably to kill either of us at all or that we'd beaten the snot out of them while still casually looking around, getting used to the controls and learning the map :p
The strongest memory of that match is the guy using the jeep that he'd intially taken to try and run me over instead using it to escape from me ^^;
I've played consoles for as long as i can remember though and so had my friend :D
Honestly; its that good. We hopped on live and played online also; that was also alot of fun. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Cant wait to get my 360.
username: TigersmithGU