Skulk <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> reminds me of the Termagant /Hormagaunt tyranids from warhammer40k if they looked kinda like that in ns2 you wouldnt have to make models gorey. They have an exo skeleton and visable organs and muscle / sinew and tendons, I mean just look at the alien hive in ns1 it looks like a distended uterus/gross so mabybe you dont need blood and gore every where... kinda like doom the movie things kinda look out of place like you missed something and you really shouldnt stay too long kind of feeling.Besides couldnt you get away with more gooey stuff than alien blood for instance the gorge makes buildings and heals and they are CUTE maybe make them more slug footed and make them leave a slimy trail OOO SCARY! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Edit Btw I like the way NS looks just make NS2 the same but more umm detail? more stratigic doors and vents along with welding and sealing. Why cant aliens use super ailen glue on doors?... Oh and instead of having a base all in one place for marines why not have say like the generator room in alpha corridor have to be repaired in order to build... dont forget visual style is enhanced my eire music.
I remember your personal site had some quick fiction describing how you wanted NS to feel. You should start with this again. Don't try to create something out of nothing! If we want to be true to NS of yore, we should start with a rich, vibrant universe to draw inspiration from.
I know I'm planning on resurrecting some old ideas for some new fan-fiction.
Just a quick note, in that first part about the aliens and their location you seem to be forgetting that the aliens (as far as I know) are meant to be taking over ships and stations. IE they DID have prior knowledge of humanity cause they arrived and proceded to kill all the original inhabitants (presumably scientists on a research base, crew on a spaceship, etc) Now given humans were already there, most humans being fairly inteligent will try VERY hard to fight for their lives. They will find anything to use as a weapon, try their best to contain things, or escape, whichever works best. So I'd say even if the aliens were up against "civilians" they would have some idea of fighting humanity in some way.
-edit- Also as far as I am aware the lack of defenses and anything much else on the aliens side is because they have gone into hybernation. Conserving resources and waiting till they can spread or there is a threat.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> umm.. just a suggestion, rather then worrying about a visual style for NS2 maybe the initial focus should be gameplay.
If NS2 ventures out into an open environment gameplay/visuals would greatly differ then if it remained indoors.
I love NS and would gladly drop $40 for a graphically updated version of it, but the reason why i started playing NS wasn't because of the graphics but the gameplay.
Surprise us again! Figure out how to completely recreate the FPS/RTS genre and blow us away. The Source engine's main focus was always on its physics engine yet most mods rarely focus on incorpurating that into their games. Maybe look into that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
One thing the atmosphere needs to hold is some sort of lingering terror, fear, horror... NS1 lacks that entirely. While the HL engine might have been limited in terms of lighting, and balance concerns forcing mappers to be very skillful with placements of darkness, HL2 should change that. My first vote would be in favor of darkness, <b>a lot,</b> and a **** ton of awesome creepy ambiance for the aliens. Give the marines something to cut through the darkness, like an observitory ping illuminating the area around the marines with a blue color (see Dark Massiah's 'night vision' spell!).
One last thing? Motion tracking ruins atmosphere, a lot. I'd get rid of it.
Great responses folks. Some of the concept work you found looks fantastic.
The reason we're doing visuals instead of gameplay now is because the art and levels take the longest time to create so we have to get started on them immediately. Once we establish the visual style that can proceed while we tackle the gameplay side of things. I also have a pretty clear idea of how the gameplay is going to work out, as I've been thinking about it for quite awhile.
Now I know that I should post to the blog more often...to get help!
With NS I <i><b>never</i></b> heard anyone have issues with the graphics it was the gameplay/resource model/teamplay that needed work.
Lets hear about the game Flay, I know you have some <b>super secret resource model/gameplay idea</b> and that's all good... but can we hear some basic things you are thinking about. (ie. engine/map types/game-types/classes/weapons)
What do you say?... give us some sugar papabear! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Agreement. After all, if you tell us then we can help you even more <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
You never heard about people having issues with the graphics because they worked out the graphics long before the gameplay. Now, they're doing the same thing with NS2. The only difference is, this time you have a front row seat, whereas for NS you came in after a lot of the work had been done. You just have to be patient.
I personally love the visual style of Gears of War - crumbling neoclassic and gothic being reclaimed by nature (and constantly rearranged by firepower).
GoW's singleplayer map design is even better, but I can't find a really good repository of screens that reflects its yummy goodness. This is a start: <a href="http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/1167/Gears-of-War/p1/" target="_blank">http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/11...ears-of-War/p1/</a>. Hopefully someone has something better (maybe a single player walkthrough that accidently shows what I'm talking about?).
If the war of Marines and Aliens have spread further into the heart of human civilization, stands to reason the maps could start reflecting it. If!
/me waves <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> (Old friends - ping me in OT if anyone wants to chat, I don't want to hijack this thread)
I'm especially fond of BROWSER_Ice's 1h essay, as he has a point. Since you ask for inspiriation for a theme and basically the graphical content that NS2 will provide (so far, as you've said Flayra).
What better point of view is there than a movie? Now, to draw parallells do another game, it has to be Half-Life 2. The scene at the railwaystation has so much excessive details that you can explore and soak up as a impression of the game, and if the maps are designed to be nothing more than just an empty shell for a multiplayer frenzy to take place in, it would be empty and leave the atmospheric thing aside. So I strongly support BROWSER_Ice's ideas and I hope you take them into consideration when designing the game.
Anyway, I think I can get something out of me, so here it goes, it's been a while since I played NS here aswell so don't mind any errors I do ^^;
- Try to show the whole of a map. I'm not sure if outdoors environments is the thing this game is all about, but at least give the illusion about it. If the conflict is happening in a spaceship, shouldn't the interior reflect this little fact aswell? Anyway, speaking of that, as said before, the alien infestation has to start somewhere on the ship, right? I'm not sure how this fits into the story, but how about a large organic shell, infesting the exterior of the ship, crushing and corroding the hull, resulting in a hull breach. Try to connect the inward attack with the outward one, and try to show this by making in viewed from windows and so on. For example, there is a hallway leading to the alien hive, however if you look to your left there is a huge organic piece of flesh eating on the ship, spewing materials and acid into empty space. - Lamps and helmets falling of after death, (not certain how the engine would handle lightsources like that) on the ground, so after a battle you would see traces of blood on the ground (PG-13? Please, just say no!), the helmet's built-in flashlight flickering before it despawns. - Strategic lighting? A marine could be able to plant a powerful lamp on the ground, illuminating the area they are trying to defend. This could be debated for its usefulness though... - Alarms, triggered by alien activity, that if not avoided by the alien team, could indicate where they are at certain locations?
Nevertheless, I'm just happy you've announced NS2 and I'm looking forward to it. Wish you luck ^^
I found some nice art done by a russian, I like his style of corridors and I think it would suit NS2 very well. Loads of obstacles to hidde at and open space for marines to have their advantages.
But ofc if its too easy to nail aliens at some point of the maps, you can always retouch it with some obstacles that would seem apropriate for the place.
<img src="http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Ghost_in_the_Shell_2:_Innocence/2004_ghost_in_the_shell_2_innocence_006.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> would be great as a sky texture <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
maybe for NS2, the architecture of the maps shouldn't be "regular" sci fi only. maybe a mix of ancient design and sci fi design could work. (egyptian, mayan, chinese, cathedrals, aztec etc) Or use designs from other cultures and mix it with sci fi. Or textures with words in chinese. THIS would definatly give NS a unique feeling. BUt it is extremely difficult however.
magmar any one <a href="http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215468/molten-venus-surface.jpg" target="_blank">http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215468/mo...nus-surface.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/0/5/Environnement_5_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/..._5_by_Otram.jpg</a> heck most ofthis guys work <a href="http://otram.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://otram.deviantart.com/gallery/</a> <a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/338/2/c/Ida_in_the_wind_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/338/2...nd_by_Otram.jpg</a> <a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/3/6/Environnement_4_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/..._4_by_Otram.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/329/5/2/Ikarus___Resurrection_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/329/...by_sekido54.jpg</a> <a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/303/c/a/Deliverance_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/303/...by_sekido54.jpg</a> some of this guys work <a href="http://sekido54.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://sekido54.deviantart.com/gallery/</a> eh its tasteful <a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/213/7/d/Bullfrog_Powersuit_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/213/...by_sekido54.jpg</a> <a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/205/c/9/tank_stalkers__the_ambush_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/205/c...by_sekido54.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/a/e/Catachan_Moonlight_Fight_by_KasrkinCK.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/...y_KasrkinCK.jpg</a> this person draws errr orbs really well <a href="http://aztlan2006.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://aztlan2006.deviantart.com/gallery/</a>
HHMG? heavy heavy ma.. <a href="http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/i/2006/318/f/2/a_half" target="_blank">http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/i/2006/318/f/2/a_half</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-"The Pointy-Haired Boss"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("The Pointy-Haired Boss")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to make sure we appeal to you guys, our existing fan-base, yet also differentiate ourselves from NS and others in the market so it doesn't seem to be "more of the same"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html" target="_blank">:taste for makers:</a>
For some sewer-kindish map areas, I'd go with the visual style shown in the movie "Twelve Monkeys". It's a bit overdetailed for NS2 maybe, but the lightning atmosphere, flooded water and overall industrial disorder would fit perfectly. There's also that "metallic machines versus living organisms" -theme shown in these screen captures:
I really think that the visual theme of NS2 would have to rely on a basic structure, while map builders would build off the core to create their own architectural styles. For example, I would imagine there being a major difference between military class vessel compared to a backwater vessel. One would appear clean and professional looking (Battlestar Galactica) while the other would appear gritty and industrial (Firefly / Serenity).
This is what I imagine for now:
Each alien speices would appear very unique from each other. Although this imparts a feeling of inconsistency among the Kharaa, it would allow each alien to send a different message to the player, such as nervousness from a skulk or epic amazement from an onos. In NS, did you notice that the Fade was the only black colored alien? My idea would have each alien stand out from each other as much as the Fade did in NS, instead of all aliens sharing similar colors and anatomy.
I really can't tell you how you would define an overall architecture for NS2. NS mainly takes place on space stations and space vessels. They've ranged from sleek technology to industrial complexes. I honestly don't think that it would be possible to clearly define a set of rules for NS2 (besides basic "sci-fi") unless we were to only narrow NS2 to "military class space vessels" or something. Each ship would reflect a different architecture. Otherwise, all NS2 maps would abide by the same architecture and appear bland.
A better way to explore architectural theme besides having a "set style" would be a "set theme." We need to figure out what OVERALL feeling the player needs to feel. Will we give him fear and nervousness (Survival Horror Games), or determination and logic (Common Warfare FPS/RTS)? Personally, I am all up for a "Survival Horror-esque" theme, as opposed to the "less scary" original NS theme. Granted, NS had tense moments, but not enough in my opinion. I would want the player to be extremely wary. He would feel scared and want someone to come with him. Another marine would come and join him, and they would want to move a bit slowly and besure to examine everything to make sure they don't have something following them. How do we do that? Well, I think ambience and lighting are the key elements.
Just as a prototype, NS2 would comprise of many styles of architecture that vary from setting to setting, but all maps would have one common Survival Horror-esque theme. This would grant diversity to the game because you could be fighting on a military space ship, giant industrial space furnace, planetside science outpost, planetside crashed ship, or a junker craft on the fringe of the galatic arm. Some maps would be cramped or wide open, or, dirty or clean. All maps would provide good ambience sound and intelligent lighting to generate tenseness and nervousness in the player. That way, it is possible to create a WIDE variety of style of architecture in NS2 but all would impart that one unique cohesive NS2 feeling.
So to end this, I would first develop the type of emotion and theme you want to impart to the player. Then decide what elements you need to use to impart this emotion. In my case, ambience and lighting. Then decide the types of battles you want. Don't limit yourself to a single architectural style, I feel it would become bland.
Eh nice post cortalus, it interesting if you read the old school fan fic you will find a ultra huge range pre made factions and enough history and back drop that any system with phase tech could and would have the power to start a war, if a single pillar of the TSA charter was taken away.
Its cos of this offical fan fic of what we are fighting for that if these systems if these factions are found to be harboring breeding or have a vessal unintensionaly over ran with kharaa, the tsa can come in and kick the door down across many planets, ship and stations with millions of diff types of archtecture. and your correct people should NOT stick to a single type of arctechture
but with that said there are still a few things to remeber tho they arnt solid and iron clad
most ships that would get cleared out and have priority would be tsa owned ships, so alot of maps will be TSA colored and or style and feel with that said there would be different era of tsa archetecture as well as diffrent qualitys and usaly the quality will degrade as the product becomes older. So with that said i belive there are some map packs or map builder packs running around already with heavyly tsa theamed core elements to those packs
The other thing to consiter is even tho we are huge gallaxys and star systems there is still going to be coka cola soft drink, there is still going to be nike shoes, there will still be black and deck power tools
well not exsacky those names, BUT there are only going to to be a few companys that make really good quality air vents and ducts fans and so on, theres only going to be a hand full of diff companys that make lights furecent and other wise, ram door air locks, tho this isnt solid iron clad its a nice rule of thumb, not every system can produce its own airlocks ram doors lights console's monitars res node caps, vetilation ,fans, its much easyer for systems to go to other systems and perchase the required parts that system makes so there builder may build requried said ship
what would be nice is if we could get a cataloge some more fan fiction up and get a list of factions there insignia there rough age from what era they are from when was they where at their peak and what type of archtecture ones may come across in products from that system.
The system of the MOUSE, *sorry Mouse i always seam to use you as a exsample, Mouses maps have a feel to them a arctecture, mouse may or may not allow other to use his arctecture but if he wants to he could safely complie a mapers pack with all his bits, maybe add a few custom mouse sprays and suddenly if mouses arctecture is liked more and more style ships from a arctecture style mouse has made so there for maps could start popping up and looking like lots of vessals and structures are controled and owned by mouses galaxy or mouse just happens to have a heavy kharaa presence in his start system, or his factions has better ties with tsa to get aliens clear out more efficently or offtan
you would notice that if fans from mouses map get worked into other archtectures you would get the feeling mouses galaxy exsports fan as a company produces good quality solid vetilation, and same goes for if mouse use's a air lock from some one else mappers pack
i under stand not every one is a brilliant mapper and so on, but if just about every mapper realsed a mapper pack, and some erganomic traits where kept solid people could easaly, quite easly build LEGO blocks leggo blocks that are compattable with everyone else's lego blocks
then people can just drop in leggo blocks and make entire new lvls in seconds
most door should nearly always be the same size, most palces should have disablity acess, most maintinace shafts should always be big enough to fit a golfcart of a fork lift, most air locks should stick to a rule of thumb
the best rule and way to judge erganomics is to look at the human body, every kitchen every car anything that is designed by humans for humans usaly and should consiter erganomics as this object is going to be around humans for human use
and the same runs true for the kharaa spesies as well
this if we had 20 differnt color bits of lego so much leggo we have a infinate amount at the click of a button, now imagine if ver single bit of that lego was comptable with ever other peice if so desired
OK so basically in a nut shell, we would need to determine what information to draw from. We first need to figure exactly what TSA ships look like, junker ships, science stations, space factories, etc... After that, we apply the information with a bit of common sense to create a broad range of architecture.
Then, we create a few maps based upon the basic architectural sense and we end up with three or four maps that possess pretty similar architecture. However, we would end up having many other "map packs" which feature their own architectural style. Each pack could represent a specfic region in the NS Universe, a certain space ship construction company, etc...
If you take a look at the original NS maps, they had a variety of architectural design. Some are techy, and some are industrial. However, all the maps seem to basically come down to rooms connected by a system of halls. I don't want this to happen, I want the maps to have variety of layouts as well as archtectural design. For example, when we make a space ship, the space ship should have decks and sections, not random rooms connected by halls. When we make a science station, it should have efficient room organization, not rooms connected by halls. Essentially, I think each map should have a set theme, then design the map layout to match. It needs to be logical, not a strange system of rooms and halls which would make no sense if implemented into a real space ship.
Example: 2-3 spaceship maps that are built in a scheme and design very similar to Battlestar Galactica. 2-3 space factory maps that are built to look like something out of dirty industrial plant. All maps need to make some sort of logical sense when it is planned out. All "maps packs" need to be sufficiently different in design to prevent the game from seeming bland.
EDIT: I have read alot of the old manual, and it had a ton of fiction. I feel we should draw upon the fiction in the old manual instead of trying to create a new one, cause it was pretty good.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2006
I totally agree with you that maps need to be realistic/plauseable in layout.
But this also introduces another problem. Balancing maps will be harder if you have location which are set like main engines, generators, onboard weapons systems, support systems etc... This could of course be fixed by creating no-build areas like I'm doing right now in my map, designed to have a ship layout. But in HL1 it's harder to do because it will eat up runtime entities (275max) if you want it to look like a nobuild zone with damage or particle effects etc... Bah, NS2 will probably not have this problem so you point is still valid XD
What I would love to see is water. Water should play a bigger role in NS2, it's probably one of the best ways to create atmosphere in a map. I'd say it's right up there with steamy/misty areas, sound design and ofcourse Dynamic infestation <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Your very right about that, "important" water doesn't ever show up in FPS games. In a game like NS2, water would seem to hold some potential for creating atmosphere. I could see aliens having some distinct advantages in water, such as being able to move around effectively while marines would have a harder time with thier armor and what not.
Imagine something like a very dark laboratory, and it's flooded with water. There are lights coming from below the water, illuminating the water and casting a erie light from below. A glass partition is in the room, forcing you to swim under to get to the other side. This could create tension in the player because if he wants to get to the other side, he will need to become completely vulnerable or get a buddy to cover him.
Well, on the point of level layout, I hope NS2 won't have the same exact spawn system as NS with it's three predefined hives and marine start. I hope they will try to do something new that preserves balance but allows a variety of level layouts.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--quoteo(post=1584245:date=Dec 4 2006, 07:02 PM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Dec 4 2006, 07:02 PM) [snapback]1584245[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Your very right about that, "important" water doesn't ever show up in FPS games. In a game like NS2, water would seem to hold some potential for creating atmosphere. I could see aliens having some distinct advantages in water, suck being able to move around effectively while marines would have a harder time with thier armor and what not. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gameplay wise; aliens already have an advantage in the few area's where theres deep water in NS: They can attack. Marines cant, unless they wip out the knife.
the issue Crotalus, with erganomicly planed designed maps is in lay out wise unbalanced, you cant have rooms near rooms devided by a single wall. Its the same reasons that there are no multi lvl maps out there, that arnt combat with out a huge huge distance between each lvl, seige guns, as well as coming rines overlaping alien dots and many many other hazardish issues with multi lvl maps, but for side by side rooms the maps would suddenly grow in tramendious file sizes, you would have many rooms and area's that dont hardly ever get used, scent of fear and motion would no doupt become less reliable and or interfeared with
now IF coms got a three D comander view and could zoom out and pick multiple lvls to com on ok then you have elminated some of the top down com issues,
plus seige gun range would have to heavly be reduced
but this doesnt mean you cant have room there design the map around them then block off and delete access to those room and or the rooms entirely
but yes your on the right track you will find tech ship's have a lot of consols, junkers all industrial even maybe non digital contols, tsa mill grade ships will be very clean very ship shape,
Since we are talking abour environments, what about cold ones ? Some parts of the map being affected by the outside because of either openings, loss of power and the outside would somehow affect the inside of it either partialy or totaly.
Underwater - hall brieches where like you pointed, water would occupy part/entire sections. Humidity would be higher everywhere because of that. Therefore, more drippings, more water leaking partialy everywhere. High humidy would benefit the hives and mucus growth because of nutriants being present in water/humidity. Marines would have a harder moving around and accessing functioning equipements
Frozen world - lack of power in some areas would cause tempeture to drop down considerably therefore affecting aliens growth/movements. Marines would be affected also but more on the movements aspects
More then one sun world or sandworld - sands, sands, sands everywhere, causing equipement to malfunction. - higher tempetature, affecting both races and reducing alien mucus growth - geting exausted faster because of high tempetarue - less or non-existant humidity affecting aliens
There could be dozens of ways that an enviornement could affect the map in its entirity and affect the gameplay of either or boty races. Maybe jetpacks would work less in a sand like world because of sand geting in the turbine ? HA rusting faster because of water ? Rines non-HA freezing ? Also, all equipement either map's or team's should be affected by this. The overall lightings also. Lots and lots of stuffs can be elaborated from that.
That's all fine and all, but we still need to find some certain thing to tie all the levels together, or the entire map collection for NS2 will seem unrelated from each because of each's diverse architecture. I'm thinking of similar lighting effects for all maps to preserve continuity. What do you guys think would be a good way to tie all the maps together?
Comments
Edit Btw I like the way NS looks just make NS2 the same but more umm detail? more stratigic doors and vents along with welding and sealing. Why cant aliens use super ailen glue on doors?...
Oh and instead of having a base all in one place for marines why not have say like the generator room in alpha corridor have to be repaired in order to build... dont forget visual style is enhanced my eire music.
I remember your personal site had some quick fiction describing how you wanted NS to feel. You should start with this again. Don't try to create something out of nothing! If we want to be true to NS of yore, we should start with a rich, vibrant universe to draw inspiration from.
I know I'm planning on resurrecting some old ideas for some new fan-fiction.
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Just a quick note, in that first part about the aliens and their location you seem to be forgetting that the aliens (as far as I know) are meant to be taking over ships and stations. IE they DID have prior knowledge of humanity cause they arrived and proceded to kill all the original inhabitants (presumably scientists on a research base, crew on a spaceship, etc) Now given humans were already there, most humans being fairly inteligent will try VERY hard to fight for their lives. They will find anything to use as a weapon, try their best to contain things, or escape, whichever works best. So I'd say even if the aliens were up against "civilians" they would have some idea of fighting humanity in some way.
-edit- Also as far as I am aware the lack of defenses and anything much else on the aliens side is because they have gone into hybernation. Conserving resources and waiting till they can spread or there is a threat.
If NS2 ventures out into an open environment gameplay/visuals would greatly differ then if it remained indoors.
I love NS and would gladly drop $40 for a graphically updated version of it, but the reason why i started playing NS wasn't because of the graphics but the gameplay.
Surprise us again! Figure out how to completely recreate the FPS/RTS genre and blow us away. The Source engine's main focus was always on its physics engine yet most mods rarely focus on incorpurating that into their games. Maybe look into that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
One last thing? Motion tracking ruins atmosphere, a lot. I'd get rid of it.
The reason we're doing visuals instead of gameplay now is because the art and levels take the longest time to create so we have to get started on them immediately. Once we establish the visual style that can proceed while we tackle the gameplay side of things. I also have a pretty clear idea of how the gameplay is going to work out, as I've been thinking about it for quite awhile.
Now I know that I should post to the blog more often...to get help!
Lets hear about the game Flay, I know you have some <b>super secret resource model/gameplay idea</b> and that's all good... but can we hear some basic things you are thinking about. (ie. engine/map types/game-types/classes/weapons)
What do you say?... give us some sugar papabear! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
EDiT: TYPoS/HtML
<a href="http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gears-of-War-Multiplayer-Map-Media/p7/" target="_blank">http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gea...r-Map-Media/p7/</a>
<a href="http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gears-of-War-Multiplayer-Map-Media/p1/" target="_blank">http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gea...r-Map-Media/p1/</a>
<a href="http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gears-of-War-Multiplayer-Map-Media/p2/" target="_blank">http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1780/Gea...r-Map-Media/p2/</a>
GoW's singleplayer map design is even better, but I can't find a really good repository of screens that reflects its yummy goodness. This is a start: <a href="http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/1167/Gears-of-War/p1/" target="_blank">http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/11...ears-of-War/p1/</a>. Hopefully someone has something better (maybe a single player walkthrough that accidently shows what I'm talking about?).
If the war of Marines and Aliens have spread further into the heart of human civilization, stands to reason the maps could start reflecting it. If!
/me waves <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> (Old friends - ping me in OT if anyone wants to chat, I don't want to hijack this thread)
And Flayra... we are your long term fans.. inside goss please!!
I'm especially fond of BROWSER_Ice's 1h essay, as he has a point. Since you ask for inspiriation for a theme and basically the graphical content that NS2 will provide (so far, as you've said Flayra).
What better point of view is there than a movie?
Now, to draw parallells do another game, it has to be Half-Life 2. The scene at the railwaystation has so much excessive details that you can explore and soak up as a impression of the game, and if the maps are designed to be nothing more than just an empty shell for a multiplayer frenzy to take place in, it would be empty and leave the atmospheric thing aside. So I strongly support BROWSER_Ice's ideas and I hope you take them into consideration when designing the game.
Anyway, I think I can get something out of me, so here it goes, it's been a while since I played NS here aswell so don't mind any errors I do ^^;
- Try to show the whole of a map. I'm not sure if outdoors environments is the thing this game is all about, but at least give the illusion about it. If the conflict is happening in a spaceship, shouldn't the interior reflect this little fact aswell? Anyway, speaking of that, as said before, the alien infestation has to start somewhere on the ship, right? I'm not sure how this fits into the story, but how about a large organic shell, infesting the exterior of the ship, crushing and corroding the hull, resulting in a hull breach. Try to connect the inward attack with the outward one, and try to show this by making in viewed from windows and so on. For example, there is a hallway leading to the alien hive, however if you look to your left there is a huge organic piece of flesh eating on the ship, spewing materials and acid into empty space.
- Lamps and helmets falling of after death, (not certain how the engine would handle lightsources like that) on the ground, so after a battle you would see traces of blood on the ground (PG-13? Please, just say no!), the helmet's built-in flashlight flickering before it despawns.
- Strategic lighting? A marine could be able to plant a powerful lamp on the ground, illuminating the area they are trying to defend. This could be debated for its usefulness though...
- Alarms, triggered by alien activity, that if not avoided by the alien team, could indicate where they are at certain locations?
Nevertheless, I'm just happy you've announced NS2 and I'm looking forward to it. Wish you luck ^^
<a href="http://www.rkoart.com/concept/neuro_sketch4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.rkoart.com/concept/neuro_sketch4.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.rkoart.com/concept/neuro_sketch2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.rkoart.com/concept/neuro_sketch2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.rkoart.com/concept/3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.rkoart.com/concept/3.jpg</a>
But ofc if its too easy to nail aliens at some point of the maps, you can always retouch it with some obstacles that would seem apropriate for the place.
<img src="http://www.wired.com/news/images/full/ghost2_f.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Ghost_in_the_Shell_2:_Innocence/2004_ghost_in_the_shell_2_innocence_015.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Ghost_in_the_Shell_2:_Innocence/2004_ghost_in_the_shell_2_innocence_014.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Ghost_in_the_Shell_2:_Innocence/2004_ghost_in_the_shell_2_innocence_006.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
would be great as a sky texture <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<img src="http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_Ghost_in_the_Shell_2:_Innocence/2004_ghost_in_the_shell_2_innocence_001.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
screenshot from ghost in the shell 2.
maybe for NS2, the architecture of the maps shouldn't be "regular" sci fi only.
maybe a mix of ancient design and sci fi design could work. (egyptian, mayan, chinese, cathedrals, aztec etc)
Or use designs from other cultures and mix it with sci fi.
Or textures with words in chinese.
THIS would definatly give NS a unique feeling.
BUt it is extremely difficult however.
<img src="http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/1939/1273/lo/eh6422.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/1939/1273/lo/eh806.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
event horizon movie stills
hum out door maps with alien flora and fawna
<a href="http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~micah/img_0082_small.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~micah/img_0082_small.jpg</a>
<a href="http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/1477/1477_1127939791.jpg" target="_blank">http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits..._1127939791.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/69461/2/istockphoto_69461_alien_egg.jpg" target="_blank">http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview...1_alien_egg.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ct.pbase.com/v3/34/564334/1/48262398.20050818flow01.jpg" target="_blank">http://ct.pbase.com/v3/34/564334/1/4826239...50818flow01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/246422/2/istockphoto_246422_cuttlefish_02.jpg" target="_blank">http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview...ttlefish_02.jpg</a>
cuttle fish on land
<a href="http://www.artbeacon.com/products/regulars/216/705.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.artbeacon.com/products/regulars/216/705.jpg</a>
hairy eared monkeys?
<a href="http://www.institutohorus.org.br/download/fotos/index/Figura24.gif" target="_blank">http://www.institutohorus.org.br/download/...ex/Figura24.gif</a>
magmar any one
<a href="http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215468/molten-venus-surface.jpg" target="_blank">http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215468/mo...nus-surface.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.speed101.com/images/sb/z990922VirtualEdgeOpenSideWE.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.speed101.com/images/sb/z990922V...eOpenSideWE.JPG</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/318/1/f/Cave_by_Fallen_Yggdrasil.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/318/...n_Yggdrasil.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/0/5/Environnement_5_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/..._5_by_Otram.jpg</a>
heck most ofthis guys work
<a href="http://otram.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://otram.deviantart.com/gallery/</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/338/2/c/Ida_in_the_wind_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/338/2...nd_by_Otram.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/3/6/Environnement_4_by_Otram.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/315/..._4_by_Otram.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/329/5/2/Ikarus___Resurrection_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/329/...by_sekido54.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/303/c/a/Deliverance_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/303/...by_sekido54.jpg</a>
some of this guys work
<a href="http://sekido54.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://sekido54.deviantart.com/gallery/</a>
eh its tasteful
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/213/7/d/Bullfrog_Powersuit_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/213/...by_sekido54.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/205/c/9/tank_stalkers__the_ambush_by_sekido54.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/205/c...by_sekido54.jpg</a>
eh
<a href="http://fedya.deviantart.com/" target="_blank">http://fedya.deviantart.com/</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs10/f/2006/325/5/e/Minigun_by_quellion.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs10/f/2006/325/...by_quellion.jpg</a>
<a href="http://s.deviantart.com/styles/blank.png" target="_blank">http://s.deviantart.com/styles/blank.png</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/e/1/End_of_Days_by_CoolNitro.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/...y_CoolNitro.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/a/e/Catachan_Moonlight_Fight_by_KasrkinCK.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/321/...y_KasrkinCK.jpg</a>
this person draws errr orbs really well
<a href="http://aztlan2006.deviantart.com/gallery/" target="_blank">http://aztlan2006.deviantart.com/gallery/</a>
HHMG?
heavy heavy ma..
<a href="http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/i/2006/318/f/2/a_half" target="_blank">http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/i/2006/318/f/2/a_half</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/313/7/9/spherecity_by_yozartwork.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/313/..._yozartwork.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/291/b/8/alien_intentions_by_bestelix.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/291/...by_bestelix.jpg</a>
<a href="http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/310/8/5/cavern_roots_by_bestelix.jpg" target="_blank">http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/310/...by_bestelix.jpg</a>
slumps to the ground
<a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html" target="_blank">:taste for makers:</a>
It's a bit overdetailed for NS2 maybe, but the lightning atmosphere, flooded water and overall industrial disorder would fit perfectly. There's also that "metallic machines versus living organisms" -theme shown in these screen captures:
<img src="http://dicola.loota.fi/12monkeys1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://dicola.loota.fi/12monkeys2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://dicola.loota.fi/12monkeys3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
This is what I imagine for now:
Each alien speices would appear very unique from each other. Although this imparts a feeling of inconsistency among the Kharaa, it would allow each alien to send a different message to the player, such as nervousness from a skulk or epic amazement from an onos. In NS, did you notice that the Fade was the only black colored alien? My idea would have each alien stand out from each other as much as the Fade did in NS, instead of all aliens sharing similar colors and anatomy.
I really can't tell you how you would define an overall architecture for NS2. NS mainly takes place on space stations and space vessels. They've ranged from sleek technology to industrial complexes. I honestly don't think that it would be possible to clearly define a set of rules for NS2 (besides basic "sci-fi") unless we were to only narrow NS2 to "military class space vessels" or something. Each ship would reflect a different architecture. Otherwise, all NS2 maps would abide by the same architecture and appear bland.
A better way to explore architectural theme besides having a "set style" would be a "set theme." We need to figure out what OVERALL feeling the player needs to feel. Will we give him fear and nervousness (Survival Horror Games), or determination and logic (Common Warfare FPS/RTS)? Personally, I am all up for a "Survival Horror-esque" theme, as opposed to the "less scary" original NS theme. Granted, NS had tense moments, but not enough in my opinion. I would want the player to be extremely wary. He would feel scared and want someone to come with him. Another marine would come and join him, and they would want to move a bit slowly and besure to examine everything to make sure they don't have something following them. How do we do that? Well, I think ambience and lighting are the key elements.
Just as a prototype, NS2 would comprise of many styles of architecture that vary from setting to setting, but all maps would have one common Survival Horror-esque theme. This would grant diversity to the game because you could be fighting on a military space ship, giant industrial space furnace, planetside science outpost, planetside crashed ship, or a junker craft on the fringe of the galatic arm. Some maps would be cramped or wide open, or, dirty or clean. All maps would provide good ambience sound and intelligent lighting to generate tenseness and nervousness in the player. That way, it is possible to create a WIDE variety of style of architecture in NS2 but all would impart that one unique cohesive NS2 feeling.
So to end this, I would first develop the type of emotion and theme you want to impart to the player. Then decide what elements you need to use to impart this emotion. In my case, ambience and lighting. Then decide the types of battles you want. Don't limit yourself to a single architectural style, I feel it would become bland.
Its cos of this offical fan fic of what we are fighting for that if these systems if these factions are found to be harboring breeding or have a vessal unintensionaly over ran with kharaa, the tsa can come in and kick the door down across many planets, ship and stations with millions of diff types of archtecture. and your correct people should NOT stick to a single type of arctechture
but with that said there are still a few things to remeber tho they arnt solid and iron clad
most ships that would get cleared out and have priority would be tsa owned ships, so alot of maps will be TSA colored and or style and feel with that said there would be different era of tsa archetecture as well as diffrent qualitys and usaly the quality will degrade as the product becomes older.
So with that said i belive there are some map packs or map builder packs running around already with heavyly tsa theamed core elements to those packs
The other thing to consiter is even tho we are huge gallaxys and star systems there is still going to be coka cola soft drink, there is still going to be nike shoes, there will still be black and deck power tools
well not exsacky those names, BUT there are only going to to be a few companys that make really good quality air vents and ducts fans and so on, theres only going to be a hand full of diff companys that make lights furecent and other wise, ram door air locks, tho this isnt solid iron clad its a nice rule of thumb, not every system can produce its own airlocks ram doors lights console's monitars res node caps, vetilation ,fans, its much easyer for systems to go to other systems and perchase the required parts that system makes so there builder may build requried said ship
what would be nice is if we could get a cataloge some more fan fiction up and get a list of factions there insignia there rough age from what era they are from when was they where at their peak and what type of archtecture ones may come across in products from that system.
The system of the MOUSE, *sorry Mouse i always seam to use you as a exsample, Mouses maps have a feel to them a arctecture, mouse may or may not allow other to use his arctecture but if he wants to he could safely complie a mapers pack with all his bits, maybe add a few custom mouse sprays and suddenly if mouses arctecture is liked more and more style ships from a arctecture style mouse has made so there for maps could start popping up and looking like lots of vessals and structures are controled and owned by mouses galaxy or mouse just happens to have a heavy kharaa presence in his start system, or his factions has better ties with tsa to get aliens clear out more efficently or offtan
you would notice that if fans from mouses map get worked into other archtectures you would get the feeling mouses galaxy exsports fan as a company produces good quality solid vetilation, and same goes for if mouse use's a air lock from some one else mappers pack
i under stand not every one is a brilliant mapper and so on, but if just about every mapper realsed a mapper pack, and some erganomic traits where kept solid people could easaly, quite easly build LEGO blocks
leggo blocks that are compattable with everyone else's lego blocks
then people can just drop in leggo blocks and make entire new lvls in seconds
most door should nearly always be the same size, most palces should have disablity acess, most maintinace shafts should always be big enough to fit a golfcart of a fork lift, most air locks should stick to a rule of thumb
the best rule and way to judge erganomics is to look at the human body, every kitchen every car anything that is designed by humans for humans usaly and should consiter erganomics as this object is going to be around humans for human use
and the same runs true for the kharaa spesies as well
this if we had 20 differnt color bits of lego so much leggo we have a infinate amount at the click of a button, now imagine if ver single bit of that lego was comptable with ever other peice if so desired
NOW YOU HAVE BUILDING BLOCK ANY ONE CAN USE
Then, we create a few maps based upon the basic architectural sense and we end up with three or four maps that possess pretty similar architecture. However, we would end up having many other "map packs" which feature their own architectural style. Each pack could represent a specfic region in the NS Universe, a certain space ship construction company, etc...
If you take a look at the original NS maps, they had a variety of architectural design. Some are techy, and some are industrial. However, all the maps seem to basically come down to rooms connected by a system of halls. I don't want this to happen, I want the maps to have variety of layouts as well as archtectural design. For example, when we make a space ship, the space ship should have decks and sections, not random rooms connected by halls. When we make a science station, it should have efficient room organization, not rooms connected by halls. Essentially, I think each map should have a set theme, then design the map layout to match. It needs to be logical, not a strange system of rooms and halls which would make no sense if implemented into a real space ship.
Example:
2-3 spaceship maps that are built in a scheme and design very similar to Battlestar Galactica.
2-3 space factory maps that are built to look like something out of dirty industrial plant.
All maps need to make some sort of logical sense when it is planned out.
All "maps packs" need to be sufficiently different in design to prevent the game from seeming bland.
EDIT: I have read alot of the old manual, and it had a ton of fiction. I feel we should draw upon the fiction in the old manual instead of trying to create a new one, cause it was pretty good.
But this also introduces another problem. Balancing maps will be harder if you have location which are set like main engines, generators, onboard weapons systems, support systems etc... This could of course be fixed by creating no-build areas like I'm doing right now in my map, designed to have a ship layout. But in HL1 it's harder to do because it will eat up runtime entities (275max) if you want it to look like a nobuild zone with damage or particle effects etc... Bah, NS2 will probably not have this problem so you point is still valid XD
What I would love to see is water. Water should play a bigger role in NS2, it's probably one of the best ways to create atmosphere in a map. I'd say it's right up there with steamy/misty areas, sound design and ofcourse Dynamic infestation <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Imagine something like a very dark laboratory, and it's flooded with water. There are lights coming from below the water, illuminating the water and casting a erie light from below. A glass partition is in the room, forcing you to swim under to get to the other side. This could create tension in the player because if he wants to get to the other side, he will need to become completely vulnerable or get a buddy to cover him.
Well, on the point of level layout, I hope NS2 won't have the same exact spawn system as NS with it's three predefined hives and marine start. I hope they will try to do something new that preserves balance but allows a variety of level layouts.
Your very right about that, "important" water doesn't ever show up in FPS games. In a game like NS2, water would seem to hold some potential for creating atmosphere. I could see aliens having some distinct advantages in water, suck being able to move around effectively while marines would have a harder time with thier armor and what not.
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Gameplay wise; aliens already have an advantage in the few area's where theres deep water in NS: They can attack. Marines cant, unless they wip out the knife.
Its the same reasons that there are no multi lvl maps out there, that arnt combat with out a huge huge distance between each lvl, seige guns, as well as coming rines overlaping alien dots and many many other hazardish issues with multi lvl maps, but for side by side rooms the maps would suddenly grow in tramendious file sizes, you would have many rooms and area's that dont hardly ever get used, scent of fear and motion would no doupt become less reliable and or interfeared with
now IF coms got a three D comander view and could zoom out and pick multiple lvls to com on ok then you have elminated some of the top down com issues,
plus seige gun range would have to heavly be reduced
but this doesnt mean you cant have room there design the map around them then block off and delete access to those room and or the rooms entirely
but yes your on the right track
you will find tech ship's have a lot of consols, junkers all industrial even maybe non digital contols, tsa mill grade ships will be very clean very ship shape,
Underwater
- hall brieches where like you pointed, water would occupy part/entire sections. Humidity would be higher everywhere because of that. Therefore, more drippings, more water leaking partialy everywhere. High humidy would benefit the hives and mucus growth because of nutriants being present in water/humidity. Marines would have a harder moving around and accessing functioning equipements
Frozen world
- lack of power in some areas would cause tempeture to drop down considerably therefore affecting aliens growth/movements. Marines would be affected also but more on the movements aspects
More then one sun world or sandworld
- sands, sands, sands everywhere, causing equipement to malfunction.
- higher tempetature, affecting both races and reducing alien mucus growth
- geting exausted faster because of high tempetarue
- less or non-existant humidity affecting aliens
There could be dozens of ways that an enviornement could affect the map in its entirity and affect the gameplay of either or boty races. Maybe jetpacks would work less in a sand like world because of sand geting in the turbine ? HA rusting faster because of water ? Rines non-HA freezing ? Also, all equipement either map's or team's should be affected by this. The overall lightings also. Lots and lots of stuffs can be elaborated from that.
Think about it.