<!--quoteo(post=1579886:date=Nov 22 2006, 10:49 PM:name=Grahf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grahf @ Nov 22 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]1579886[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Even if it wasn't a matter of balance, the new fade is boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how I feel. Notice I said feel, instead of think. That's because it's entirely too early for public-beta players (like myself) to be commenting intelligently on balance.
The new blink has changed fade from a praying mantis into a cricket, and in my opinion, the fun level of fading has now drastically decreased.
I'll add some comments and opinions here that are outside the scope of 3.2 changes, but which might prove interesting to some people, and I'll highlight the important points for those not wishing to dig through every post here to get the gist of what's being said.
As far as I can tell, ns has been dumbed-down. I'm not really using that word in as much of a derogatory sense as you're probably connoting it, but it's a fitting descriptor in my mind. Thus, I began to ask "why was this done?" and the best logical answer I could find is that the dev team looked at all the servers playing combat over ns and said "NS's learning curve is too high, and it's too difficult." In essence, if I'm correct, some of these changes are seeking to make the game more palpable to new players.
<b>Great. NS could use fresh meat.</b>
But see, if this is correct, then the problem-solution went something like this:
<b>The devs said, "NS is too difficult, so let's make it easier so that new players play it more."</b>
<b>The problem isn't that ns is difficult rather than ns is boring.</b> Fade, lerk, onos, and sometimes skulk is interesting, so that's what the noobs do all the time no matter what. But where does that leave noob teams? With <b>one hive, no chamber</b> (or possibly oc-dc chamber) <b>fades, lerks, and eventually onos if they live that long.</b>
This is the problem with ns, along with how boring it is to bite down marine rts. <b>It takes a series of acts of altruistic gorging to win a game.</b>
As I see it, <b>if something is that important, you should not be discouraging new players from doing it with boredom, which is exactly what the game is currently doing</b> by insisting that the gorge remains the way it does.
I understand that advanced gorges will begin to enjoy exploiting chambers in vents or manipulating node control after 2 hives, but <b>new players</b> (especially the cs players you're likely gunning for in 3.2's nubifications to the game) <b>don't understand any of that, and thus you end up with 1 hive onos and 9:1 res nodes.</b>
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
This beta is awesome. I like the changes to the whole mc first and hive teleport situation. I'm curious what the next "first chamber" will be <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />, but at least each chamber gets dropped sometimes at the moment. I like the changes to lerk and fade movement. I'm getting used to the new blink and imho it's more fun. Web-Gorges got less annoying, that's great.
I don't like +movement, though it might be a good option for new players and those who like having attack and blink/leap on different (mouse)buttons. I tried it, but had to change my controls and it's hard to get used to it, so I'll stick to fastswitch which is fast enough for me.
i take back what i said before; after getting used to it +movement makes fading easier and more interesting. sure, it takes a bit longer to reach max speed, but the new fade rof lets you do maneuvers that were impossible pre-3.2.
I've done a couple of test games, and it is completely impossible for an alien team to break an intelligent marine turtle now.
On my first experiment, I couldn't have lost the game if I tried. And believe me, I tried. I had marines with LMGs taking down Fades and Lerks solo, with no comm support. I didn't defend the map. I didn't drop weapons. I didn't reinforce Phase Gates. I didn't attack Hives. And we <i>couldn't lose</i>. The aliens were so demoralized that even after they finally got a second hive up (which took forever considering the only defense was rambo marines with LMGs, no phase gate or anything), they were asking me to end it, and eventually they all F4ed.
On the second experiment, I relocated to Cargo on NS_Tanith. We only held nodes for the first few minutes of the game, and then let them all die. We let the aliens take the entire map, except for Cargo and Fusion. By 10 minutes into the game we were completely locked in. And we bunkered down, teched up, stopped Fusion hive from going up, and slaughtered wave after wave of aliens that tried to attack our base. Finally, 35 minutes into the game, a Jetpack rush took out Waste hive, and the aliens conceded (F4).
Again on tanith, this time a friend of mine comming, normal game to start with but it goes badly for Marines and they are pushed all the way back to spawn. Aliens get 3 Hives up, and attack the turtle. They make NO PROGRESS. Marines turtle in base, save up money on 1 RT, and eventually Jetpack Rush satcom hive and kill it. Aliens can't kill the Jetpacks, and the next 2 Hives go down shortly after.
Give me a good 3-Hive answer to a base turtle, and then give me any answer at all to a 2-Hive turtle where Marines have relocated. Aliens just don't have it anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1580354:date=Nov 24 2006, 11:30 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 24 2006, 11:30 AM) [snapback]1580354[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the new fade rof lets you do maneuvers that were impossible pre-3.2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited November 2006
Due to a lower blink rof, you can more often change direction while blinking without running out of adrenaline or into a wall.
@Cxwf: Plz do some "experiments" vs a good alien team and on less big pubs. I mean, c'mon, fades and lerks dieing to (solo)lmgs, jp-rushes against map-controlling 2-3 hives aliens (ocs, webs, spore, focus anyone?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Cxwf: Plz do some "experiments" vs a good alien team and on less big pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see. Pubs aren't important anymore. Good to know.
Seriously, why do you assume that Cxwf is a moron who doesn't know what hes talking about? I get the same reaction from people in this community all the time. I take the time to flesh out a detailed explaination of what I think is wrong and why, and somebody always jumps in and says something like "You need to stop playing in pubs" or "you need to get bet better at the game/play on a <i>good</i> server" ect. If you disagree thats fine, but if someone takes the time to detail their thoughts like that, please don't insult their intelligence.
<!--quoteo(post=1580367:date=Nov 24 2006, 12:12 PM:name=slayerkl2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(slayerkl2 @ Nov 24 2006, 12:12 PM) [snapback]1580367[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I liek the new blink a lot, but I havn't played one game ns or co that aliens have won. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played 5 games yesterday, marines won only one time.
When the consties got to do their own testing, was the balance any better? Things to brainstorm:
-It's not definite, but I would guess that the average (median, mean, whatever) constie is more willing to work as a member of a team, especially during smaller playtests.
-I would like to believe that the constie playtests showed a reasonable balance between the two teams.
-If that's the case, maybe it's a "teamwork scaling" problem. That is, if all teams work as completely independent units, loners, and rambos, the alien team is hit harder by the tactics deficit than the marines are. When both teams work reasonably as teams, the marine advantage narrows. This makes sense because of the decentralized gorging that goes on in version 3, but the disclaimer here is that I'm operating on a bunch of shaky assumptions.
-To remedy an effect such as that, you can't just modify the armor levels. Sure, I think it would be nice if aliens had Hive 2 (instead of 1) armor throughout the game, but that won't fix a problem like the hypothetical one above. My thoughts lean toward a slight improvement to skulks to improve the independent alien game. I know, the game isn't meant to be played that way, but think of a reasonably well-working alien team with a few loners: you don't want to punish the team players by making everyone else a bunch of lead weights.
Just some thoughts. I won't fully extend those suggestions until I've had a few weeks to play many more games.
<!--quoteo(post=1580355:date=Nov 24 2006, 06:35 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 24 2006, 06:35 PM) [snapback]1580355[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the second experiment, I relocated to Cargo on NS_Tanith. We only held nodes for the first few minutes of the game, and then let them all die. We let the aliens take the entire map, except for Cargo and Fusion. By 10 minutes into the game we were completely locked in. And we bunkered down, teched up, stopped Fusion hive from going up, and slaughtered wave after wave of aliens that tried to attack our base. Finally, 35 minutes into the game, a Jetpack rush took out Waste hive, and the aliens conceded (F4).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was on the aliens side at this game. Onos with carapace can't even destroy a building. They die too fast. And without Hive 3 (no web), a JP swarm is impossible to counter.
Onos are extremely nerfed and can't do nothing versus JP. Fade are nerfed. Lerk are nerfed.
and now JP cost less, too much less when we compare it to HA with welder.
<!--quoteo(post=1580363:date=Nov 24 2006, 10:58 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Nov 24 2006, 10:58 AM) [snapback]1580363[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> @Cxwf: Plz do some "experiments" vs a good alien team and on less big pubs. I mean, c'mon, fades and lerks dieing to (solo)lmgs, jp-rushes against map-controlling 2-3 hives aliens (ocs, webs, spore, focus anyone?) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your missing the point. The point wasnt how easily the Jetpacks killed the Hives (although thats kind of important too), but in how much freedom we had to set up the perfect attack, because we had absolutely nothing to worry about at our base. We could have taken ALL DAY to kill the Hive if we wanted, because there is no way the Aliens were EVER going to get us out of Cargo. They could send 29 consecutive Onos if they wanted, in Umbra, and they still wouldn't have killed enough to even counter the RFK.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1580383:date=Nov 24 2006, 12:54 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 24 2006, 12:54 PM) [snapback]1580383[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I see. Pubs aren't important anymore. Good to know. ... I get the same reaction from people in this community all the time. I take the time to flesh out a detailed explaination of what I think is wrong and why, and somebody always jumps in and says something like "You need to stop playing in pubs" or "you need to get bet better at the game/play on a <i>good</i> server" ect<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good to know that you don't even try to read and understand other posts, but rather jump on the first opportunity to work off just because people don't always agree with you. I never said, pubs aren't important. I only play on pubs, thus I experienced the described situations from both teams' point of view again and again and this won't happen if the teams are more organized and balanced. I even mentioned which points suggested that aliens weren't as good as marines. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, why do you assume that Cxwf is a moron who doesn't know what hes talking about? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also didn't call or assume Cxwf to be a moron (some more careful reading plz, again), I'm just disagreeing mostly because his experiments seem a little one-sided. Moreover I regard them more like a rough game plot than detailed thoughts, although I partly agree with him that it's hard for aliens to finish the game against a marine turtle, especially on big pubs.
You make the assumption that Cxwf wasn't playing against a good alien team, and basically say that those "experiments" (by placing the word in quotes you sugest that his experiments are not) would not work against a good alien team. So it seems to me that you think Cxwf was so dumb that he mistook a bad alien team for an average, or even good one, and therefore his experiences are not properly representative.
In your post, you make no attempt to relate that your experience is different, and why you think this is so, you mearly express your disbelief in his description of events.
So, if you honestly dind't mean to offend him, then I'm sorry about the light flaming I gave you, but from where I'm sitting it doesn't look like that was the case.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1580390:date=Nov 24 2006, 01:13 PM:name=semipsychotic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(semipsychotic @ Nov 24 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]1580390[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> -If that's the case, maybe it's a "teamwork scaling" problem. That is, if all teams work as completely independent units, loners, and rambos, the alien team is hit harder by the tactics deficit than the marines are. When both teams work reasonably as teams, the marine advantage narrows. This makes sense because of the decentralized gorging that goes on in version 3, but the disclaimer here is that I'm operating on a bunch of shaky assumptions. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Imho this is a very important point and I'm seeing this problem again and again especially on big servers where marines just have to walk in bigger groups all over the map and it's much harder for lerks, fades and oni to survive (or do something against 5 hmgs pointing at them e.g.) without a decent team supporting them.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1580400:date=Nov 24 2006, 01:48 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 24 2006, 01:48 PM) [snapback]1580400[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You make the assumption that Cxwf wasn't playing against a good alien team, and basically say that those "experiments" (by placing the word in quotes you sugest that his experiments are not) would not work against a good alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tbh I expect some more backup and proof and maybe even numbers to consider this as an experiment; I rather would call it experiences, that's why I used quotes and that was not meant to be offensive or pejorative. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> In your post, you make no attempt to relate that your experience is different, and why you think this is so, you mearly express your disbelief in his description of events. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tried to express different experiences , but obviously I wasn't successful. I experienced that good lerks and fades don't die to (solo)lmgs in most cases, thus I made either different experiences or he didn't play vs good aliens. Then I listed all the counter possibilities of hive3-aliens vs jp and I don't see map-controlling hive3 aliens loosing vs jp from my experiences.
Whatever.. There is still his one game left (hive2 aliens vs. relocated marines), and although (like I posted before) I partly agree with him on the difficulty to break marine turtles, I wouldn't say, that aliens never have any chances in such situations.
Played like 5 pugs of 3.2 yesterday. The game seemed pretty balanced, except for the fact that the aliens couldnt finish off the marines very well even though they won the majority of the rounds. In fact, by the 3rd game or so no one wanted to play aliens because if we won then it would end up being drawn out to like 30 minutes and was overall very boring because the marines became fond of digging in and teching up.
The hive increases in armor have to come back for at least the 3rd hive.
Also, I think the consensus was that the new fade was a bit too easy to use now that we are use to the new blink system.
There was more but I cant think of what it was right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1580399:date=Nov 24 2006, 12:36 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Nov 24 2006, 12:36 PM) [snapback]1580399[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Moreover I regard them more like a rough game plot than detailed thoughts, although I partly agree with him that it's hard for aliens to finish the game against a marine turtle, especially on big pubs. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1580500:date=Nov 24 2006, 10:02 PM:name=Grahf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grahf @ Nov 24 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]1580500[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Played like 5 pugs of 3.2 yesterday. The game seemed pretty balanced, except for the fact that the aliens couldnt finish off the marines very well even though they won the majority of the rounds. In fact, by the 3rd game or so no one wanted to play aliens because if we won then it would end up being drawn out to like 30 minutes and was overall very boring because the marines became fond of digging in and teching up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Need I say more?
Pubs have nothing to do with it. Skilled alien teams that can win better than 50% STILL cant finish off marines in less than 30 minutes, and thats with a THREE hive situation. Now imagine it with two.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I am in favor armor bonus coming back when aliens have 3 hives up for 5 minutes or more. Making it easier for aliens to finish the game when they've already won is a good thing...and at the same time not making it any easier for them to get to the point where they've already won.
I hope enigma doesn't mind. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->revert to 3.1 blink. hit-run fading against teched marines is out of the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i take back what i said before; after getting used to it +movement makes fading easier and more interesting. sure, it takes a bit longer to reach max speed, but the new fade rof lets you do maneuvers that were impossible pre-3.2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, let's take a second and think for a second about what I said back on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=7695504232391094272&showtopic=98798&view=findpost&p=1579980" target="_blank">page two, post #35</a>. Basically, the current basic key-binds do not effectively support using the new +Movement command. To get a cohesive UI, we have to resort to creating several of our own .cfg files, one for each lifeform. Or, NS developers have to alter the key-binding choices to support using the new +Movement command adequately.
So, assuming I'm correct, and that most people aren't currently using the new +Move command very well, then we can conclude that the balancing and playtesting being done is innacurate. We as players CANNOT accurately test the balance of the two sides until we can play BOTH sides adequately. This means both adjusting to new keys and keybinds, and possibly adjusting to new playstyles.
With that, I have a few questions.
To the community at large: How many people are comfortable/willing to learn about creating config files for each lifeform and marines. This is in particular directed at the blockscripts=1 crowd. Is it realistic to expect the majority of people to adjust to this on their own?
To the developers: I understand the reasoning puzl stated about coupling +Movement with reload in the keybind menu, because otherwise many players probably would never touch it. Are you planning on updating the current keybind menu and allowing players to set up different keys for each lifeform? Or will they have to create their own .cfg files?
To enigma, and perhaps other players who feel comfortable with the new +Move command: What, if anything, did you change? Playstyle? Key binds? And, how did you make those changes?
I bound mouse5 to +movement. Previously, I used the slot keys to leap/blink/charge and mouse5 was unbound. Therefore, it's all good for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Note that I'm using mouse5 because mouse2 is the popupmenu (been that way ever since day1 and can't be bothered to optimize mouse useage) and mouse3 is my ex-ventrilo key (I hate voice-activation) so I don't use mouse3.
-I had to get used to the new turret sound, but I think I like it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> -I could build sieges through Kharaa buildings -The weapon icon in the scoreboard needs to be bigger, It's kinda tiny now (I'm on 1280x1024 if it matters)
@Slink: Well, since +movement is not blocked by mp_blockscript 1, i use this: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +fslotS smovement; alias -fslotS -movement; alias smovement "weapon_bitegun; weapon_healingspray; weapon_bite2gun; +movement"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> When i leap, the only attack i need after is bite. When i'm a gorge, it can be used to select healing spray. When i'm a lerk, it can be used to select bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1580609:date=Nov 25 2006, 04:22 PM:name=Zaggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zaggy @ Nov 25 2006, 04:22 PM) [snapback]1580609[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> -I had to get used to the new turret sound, but I think I like it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a new sound?
Don't make the weapon icon bigger; it's good as it is now. It's not meant to be super-detailed but rather to provide an overlook of what weapons you have at your disposal in your team.
<!--quoteo(post=1580551:date=Nov 25 2006, 05:30 AM:name=Slink)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Slink @ Nov 25 2006, 05:30 AM) [snapback]1580551[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To enigma, and perhaps other players who feel comfortable with the new +Move command: What, if anything, did you change? Playstyle? Key binds? And, how did you make those changes? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all I did was bind mouse2 to +movement. as for playstyle, I had to become much less aggressive after the second/third hive went up because of the armor nerf.
Would ne nifty if +movement would work with lerk also, i mean instead of using +jump to fly, use +movement or heck have both options open to use. Wouldnt need to bother with that many different binds for different classes then. Oh and yeah, would we cool if you could use the jetpack with +movement too. That would narrow by binding even more! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
theres is a MAJOR problem with marine turtline atm . . . . was playing on caged just now, HORRIBLE marine team, i had 50% more kills than anyone else, and im a bad shot. comm did nothing except treat ex-double like it was still double, we had 2 rts the whole game . . . at about 15 min we lost gen hive for the last time, from then on it was turtle in ms with 1 rt, 8v11, i wasnt even trying, cant speak for anyone else. around 48 minutes they rushed with 8 onos . . . (most at a time before that was 3 + 4 fades), they were actually able to kill us because, well, they devoured half our team.
somehow i think there should be a way to kill an inferior marine team short of an all-team onos rush . . .
No Hive armor bonus is freaking ridiculous. I just played a game where after 15 mins with 3 Hives we managed to lose 1 hive, and then again a 2nd hive, and then finally our 3rd. This was after 45 minutes of Aliens dominating. Losing legitimately to a Marine team is one thing, but losing after you have 3 Hives, all chambers and all but 1 Res node is annoying. It just makes the game very irritating and not fun.
Overall it seems like aliens are wayyy underpowered now.
Thinks I like:<ul><li>The new alien hive teleport is great.</li><li>The new +movement bind is very cool, especially for the no scripters out there.</li><li>The defense chamber healing bonus is pretty decent...not too much...might be too little.</li></ul>Things I don't like so much:<ul><li>The new charge for Onos....really not fun. Onos runs outta energy way too fast with how it is now...and if you take adrenaline..yer so slow yer like a twiching hamburger...waiting to happen.</li><li>The hive armor bonus is sorely missed....Onos are soooo easy to kill now.</li><li>Overall..Onos are way nerfed imho....Fades are about the same....Lerks are nerfed...and overall the armor bonus on top of those nerfs.</li></ul>What this means is ALOT fewer alien wins...been playing beta for a couple days....Alien wins are few and far between. People don't even wanna play aliens on the servers I've been on...because its soooo unlikely for them to win.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Merged in with the main 3.2 discussion - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
I like the new fade blink, it's really easy to control.
Even if it wasn't a matter of balance, the new fade is boring.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how I feel. Notice I said feel, instead of think. That's because it's entirely too early for public-beta players (like myself) to be commenting intelligently on balance.
The new blink has changed fade from a praying mantis into a cricket, and in my opinion, the fun level of fading has now drastically decreased.
I'll add some comments and opinions here that are outside the scope of 3.2 changes, but which might prove interesting to some people, and I'll highlight the important points for those not wishing to dig through every post here to get the gist of what's being said.
As far as I can tell, ns has been dumbed-down. I'm not really using that word in as much of a derogatory sense as you're probably connoting it, but it's a fitting descriptor in my mind. Thus, I began to ask "why was this done?" and the best logical answer I could find is that the dev team looked at all the servers playing combat over ns and said "NS's learning curve is too high, and it's too difficult." In essence, if I'm correct, some of these changes are seeking to make the game more palpable to new players.
<b>Great. NS could use fresh meat.</b>
But see, if this is correct, then the problem-solution went something like this:
<b>The devs said, "NS is too difficult, so let's make it easier so that new players play it more."</b>
<b>The problem isn't that ns is difficult rather than ns is boring.</b> Fade, lerk, onos, and sometimes skulk is interesting, so that's what the noobs do all the time no matter what. But where does that leave noob teams? With <b>one hive, no chamber</b> (or possibly oc-dc chamber) <b>fades, lerks, and eventually onos if they live that long.</b>
This is the problem with ns, along with how boring it is to bite down marine rts. <b>It takes a series of acts of altruistic gorging to win a game.</b>
As I see it, <b>if something is that important, you should not be discouraging new players from doing it with boredom, which is exactly what the game is currently doing</b> by insisting that the gorge remains the way it does.
I understand that advanced gorges will begin to enjoy exploiting chambers in vents or manipulating node control after 2 hives, but <b>new players</b> (especially the cs players you're likely gunning for in 3.2's nubifications to the game) <b>don't understand any of that, and thus you end up with 1 hive onos and 9:1 res nodes.</b>
I like the changes to the whole mc first and hive teleport situation.
I'm curious what the next "first chamber" will be <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />, but at least each chamber gets dropped sometimes at the moment.
I like the changes to lerk and fade movement.
I'm getting used to the new blink and imho it's more fun.
Web-Gorges got less annoying, that's great.
I don't like +movement, though it might be a good option for new players and those who like having attack and blink/leap on different (mouse)buttons.
I tried it, but had to change my controls and it's hard to get used to it, so I'll stick to fastswitch which is fast enough for me.
On my first experiment, I couldn't have lost the game if I tried. And believe me, I tried. I had marines with LMGs taking down Fades and Lerks solo, with no comm support. I didn't defend the map. I didn't drop weapons. I didn't reinforce Phase Gates. I didn't attack Hives. And we <i>couldn't lose</i>. The aliens were so demoralized that even after they finally got a second hive up (which took forever considering the only defense was rambo marines with LMGs, no phase gate or anything), they were asking me to end it, and eventually they all F4ed.
On the second experiment, I relocated to Cargo on NS_Tanith. We only held nodes for the first few minutes of the game, and then let them all die. We let the aliens take the entire map, except for Cargo and Fusion. By 10 minutes into the game we were completely locked in. And we bunkered down, teched up, stopped Fusion hive from going up, and slaughtered wave after wave of aliens that tried to attack our base. Finally, 35 minutes into the game, a Jetpack rush took out Waste hive, and the aliens conceded (F4).
Again on tanith, this time a friend of mine comming, normal game to start with but it goes badly for Marines and they are pushed all the way back to spawn. Aliens get 3 Hives up, and attack the turtle. They make NO PROGRESS. Marines turtle in base, save up money on 1 RT, and eventually Jetpack Rush satcom hive and kill it. Aliens can't kill the Jetpacks, and the next 2 Hives go down shortly after.
Give me a good 3-Hive answer to a base turtle, and then give me any answer at all to a 2-Hive turtle where Marines have relocated. Aliens just don't have it anymore.
What do you mean by that?
@Cxwf: Plz do some "experiments" vs a good alien team and on less big pubs.
I mean, c'mon, fades and lerks dieing to (solo)lmgs,
jp-rushes against map-controlling 2-3 hives aliens (ocs, webs, spore, focus anyone?)
I see. Pubs aren't important anymore. Good to know.
Seriously, why do you assume that Cxwf is a moron who doesn't know what hes talking about? I get the same reaction from people in this community all the time. I take the time to flesh out a detailed explaination of what I think is wrong and why, and somebody always jumps in and says something like "You need to stop playing in pubs" or "you need to get bet better at the game/play on a <i>good</i> server" ect. If you disagree thats fine, but if someone takes the time to detail their thoughts like that, please don't insult their intelligence.
I liek the new blink a lot, but I havn't played one game ns or co that aliens have won.
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I played 5 games yesterday, marines won only one time.
-It's not definite, but I would guess that the average (median, mean, whatever) constie is more willing to work as a member of a team, especially during smaller playtests.
-I would like to believe that the constie playtests showed a reasonable balance between the two teams.
-If that's the case, maybe it's a "teamwork scaling" problem. That is, if all teams work as completely independent units, loners, and rambos, the alien team is hit harder by the tactics deficit than the marines are. When both teams work reasonably as teams, the marine advantage narrows. This makes sense because of the decentralized gorging that goes on in version 3, but the disclaimer here is that I'm operating on a bunch of shaky assumptions.
-To remedy an effect such as that, you can't just modify the armor levels. Sure, I think it would be nice if aliens had Hive 2 (instead of 1) armor throughout the game, but that won't fix a problem like the hypothetical one above. My thoughts lean toward a slight improvement to skulks to improve the independent alien game. I know, the game isn't meant to be played that way, but think of a reasonably well-working alien team with a few loners: you don't want to punish the team players by making everyone else a bunch of lead weights.
Just some thoughts. I won't fully extend those suggestions until I've had a few weeks to play many more games.
I was on the aliens side at this game. Onos with carapace can't even destroy a building. They die too fast.
And without Hive 3 (no web), a JP swarm is impossible to counter.
Onos are extremely nerfed and can't do nothing versus JP.
Fade are nerfed.
Lerk are nerfed.
and now JP cost less, too much less when we compare it to HA with welder.
@Cxwf: Plz do some "experiments" vs a good alien team and on less big pubs.
I mean, c'mon, fades and lerks dieing to (solo)lmgs,
jp-rushes against map-controlling 2-3 hives aliens (ocs, webs, spore, focus anyone?)
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Your missing the point. The point wasnt how easily the Jetpacks killed the Hives (although thats kind of important too), but in how much freedom we had to set up the perfect attack, because we had absolutely nothing to worry about at our base. We could have taken ALL DAY to kill the Hive if we wanted, because there is no way the Aliens were EVER going to get us out of Cargo. They could send 29 consecutive Onos if they wanted, in Umbra, and they still wouldn't have killed enough to even counter the RFK.
I see. Pubs aren't important anymore. Good to know.
...
I get the same reaction from people in this community all the time. I take the time to flesh out a detailed explaination of what I think is wrong and why, and somebody always jumps in and says something like "You need to stop playing in pubs" or "you need to get bet better at the game/play on a <i>good</i> server" ect<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know that you don't even try to read and understand other posts, but rather jump on the first opportunity to work off just because people don't always agree with you.
I never said, pubs aren't important. I only play on pubs, thus I experienced the described situations from both teams' point of view again and again and this won't happen if the teams are more organized and balanced. I even mentioned which points suggested that aliens weren't as good as marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, why do you assume that Cxwf is a moron who doesn't know what hes talking about?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also didn't call or assume Cxwf to be a moron (some more careful reading plz, again), I'm just disagreeing mostly because his experiments seem a little one-sided. Moreover I regard them more like a rough game plot than detailed thoughts, although I partly agree with him that it's hard for aliens to finish the game against a marine turtle, especially on big pubs.
In your post, you make no attempt to relate that your experience is different, and why you think this is so, you mearly express your disbelief in his description of events.
So, if you honestly dind't mean to offend him, then I'm sorry about the light flaming I gave you, but from where I'm sitting it doesn't look like that was the case.
-If that's the case, maybe it's a "teamwork scaling" problem. That is, if all teams work as completely independent units, loners, and rambos, the alien team is hit harder by the tactics deficit than the marines are. When both teams work reasonably as teams, the marine advantage narrows. This makes sense because of the decentralized gorging that goes on in version 3, but the disclaimer here is that I'm operating on a bunch of shaky assumptions.
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Imho this is a very important point and I'm seeing this problem again and again especially on big servers where marines just have to walk in bigger groups all over the map and it's much harder for lerks, fades and oni to survive (or do something against 5 hmgs pointing at them e.g.) without a decent team supporting them.
You make the assumption that Cxwf wasn't playing against a good alien team, and basically say that those "experiments" (by placing the word in quotes you sugest that his experiments are not) would not work against a good alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tbh I expect some more backup and proof and maybe even numbers to consider this as an experiment; I rather would call it experiences, that's why I used quotes and that was not meant to be offensive or pejorative.
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In your post, you make no attempt to relate that your experience is different, and why you think this is so, you mearly express your disbelief in his description of events. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried to express different experiences , but obviously I wasn't successful.
I experienced that good lerks and fades don't die to (solo)lmgs in most cases, thus I made either different experiences or he didn't play vs good aliens.
Then I listed all the counter possibilities of hive3-aliens vs jp and I don't see map-controlling hive3 aliens loosing vs jp from my experiences.
Whatever..
There is still his one game left (hive2 aliens vs. relocated marines), and although (like I posted before) I partly agree with him on the difficulty to break marine turtles, I wouldn't say, that aliens never have any chances in such situations.
The hive increases in armor have to come back for at least the 3rd hive.
Also, I think the consensus was that the new fade was a bit too easy to use now that we are use to the new blink system.
There was more but I cant think of what it was right now.
Moreover I regard them more like a rough game plot than detailed thoughts, although I partly agree with him that it's hard for aliens to finish the game against a marine turtle, especially on big pubs.
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<!--quoteo(post=1580500:date=Nov 24 2006, 10:02 PM:name=Grahf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grahf @ Nov 24 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]1580500[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Played like 5 pugs of 3.2 yesterday. The game seemed pretty balanced, except for the fact that the aliens couldnt finish off the marines very well even though they won the majority of the rounds. In fact, by the 3rd game or so no one wanted to play aliens because if we won then it would end up being drawn out to like 30 minutes and was overall very boring because the marines became fond of digging in and teching up.
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Need I say more?
Pubs have nothing to do with it. Skilled alien teams that can win better than 50% STILL cant finish off marines in less than 30 minutes, and thats with a THREE hive situation. Now imagine it with two.
I hope enigma doesn't mind.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->revert to 3.1 blink. hit-run fading against teched marines is out of the question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i take back what i said before; after getting used to it +movement makes fading easier and more interesting. sure, it takes a bit longer to reach max speed, but the new fade rof lets you do maneuvers that were impossible pre-3.2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, let's take a second and think for a second about what I said back on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=7695504232391094272&showtopic=98798&view=findpost&p=1579980" target="_blank">page two, post #35</a>. Basically, the current basic key-binds do not effectively support using the new +Movement command. To get a cohesive UI, we have to resort to creating several of our own .cfg files, one for each lifeform. Or, NS developers have to alter the key-binding choices to support using the new +Movement command adequately.
So, assuming I'm correct, and that most people aren't currently using the new +Move command very well, then we can conclude that the balancing and playtesting being done is innacurate. We as players CANNOT accurately test the balance of the two sides until we can play BOTH sides adequately. This means both adjusting to new keys and keybinds, and possibly adjusting to new playstyles.
With that, I have a few questions.
To the community at large: How many people are comfortable/willing to learn about creating config files for each lifeform and marines. This is in particular directed at the blockscripts=1 crowd. Is it realistic to expect the majority of people to adjust to this on their own?
To the developers: I understand the reasoning puzl stated about coupling +Movement with reload in the keybind menu, because otherwise many players probably would never touch it. Are you planning on updating the current keybind menu and allowing players to set up different keys for each lifeform? Or will they have to create their own .cfg files?
To enigma, and perhaps other players who feel comfortable with the new +Move command: What, if anything, did you change? Playstyle? Key binds? And, how did you make those changes?
Previously, I used the slot keys to leap/blink/charge and mouse5 was unbound.
Therefore, it's all good for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Note that I'm using mouse5 because mouse2 is the popupmenu (been that way ever since day1 and can't be bothered to optimize mouse useage) and mouse3 is my ex-ventrilo key (I hate voice-activation) so I don't use mouse3.
-I had to get used to the new turret sound, but I think I like it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
-I could build sieges through Kharaa buildings
-The weapon icon in the scoreboard needs to be bigger, It's kinda tiny now (I'm on 1280x1024 if it matters)
Well, since +movement is not blocked by mp_blockscript 1, i use this:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +fslotS smovement;
alias -fslotS -movement;
alias smovement "weapon_bitegun; weapon_healingspray; weapon_bite2gun; +movement"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
When i leap, the only attack i need after is bite.
When i'm a gorge, it can be used to select healing spray.
When i'm a lerk, it can be used to select bite.
-I had to get used to the new turret sound, but I think I like it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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There's a new sound?
Don't make the weapon icon bigger; it's good as it is now. It's not meant to be super-detailed but rather to provide an overlook of what weapons you have at your disposal in your team.
To enigma, and perhaps other players who feel comfortable with the new +Move command: What, if anything, did you change? Playstyle? Key binds? And, how did you make those changes?
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all I did was bind mouse2 to +movement. as for playstyle, I had to become much less aggressive after the second/third hive went up because of the armor nerf.
(i use mouse2 for +movement/+jump atm)
somehow i think there should be a way to kill an inferior marine team short of an all-team onos rush . . .
Thinks I like:<ul><li>The new alien hive teleport is great.</li><li>The new +movement bind is very cool, especially for the no scripters out there.</li><li>The defense chamber healing bonus is pretty decent...not too much...might be too little.</li></ul>Things I don't like so much:<ul><li>The new charge for Onos....really not fun. Onos runs outta energy way too fast with how it is now...and if you take adrenaline..yer so slow yer like a twiching hamburger...waiting to happen.</li><li>The hive armor bonus is sorely missed....Onos are soooo easy to kill now.</li><li>Overall..Onos are way nerfed imho....Fades are about the same....Lerks are nerfed...and overall the armor bonus on top of those nerfs.</li></ul>What this means is ALOT fewer alien wins...been playing beta for a couple days....Alien wins are few and far between. People don't even wanna play aliens on the servers I've been on...because its soooo unlikely for them to win.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Merged in with the main 3.2 discussion - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->