pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
No, succesful rambos just show the lack of skill and teamwork in the other team. Good players don't charge this rambo one after another, so that he can easily kill all of them. They rather set up an ambush with multiple aliens or wait for a better lifeform to charge the rambo <b>together</b> maybe even from different sides.
Rambos are effective vs bad players which seems the first step in (playing) natural selection. Adapt to this and attack together or whine about imbalance and cheaters and quit the game.
Which again leads without fail to the discussion about the game's learning curve and the tough start for new players, especially when they don't care about reading the manual or forums to improve their skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1589425:date=Dec 17 2006, 03:46 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Dec 17 2006, 03:46 AM) [snapback]1589425[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Whos whining about imbalance and cheaters? All I'm saying is that I think the gameplay of NS 3.x encourages ramboing by making it too effective. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play tremulous and then you won't agree with what you said.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Phasegates encourage ramboing...as well as ammo-/medpacks...well, I've heard of that at least <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1589418:date=Dec 16 2006, 11:06 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Dec 16 2006, 11:06 PM) [snapback]1589418[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The problem, I think, with counting rambos toward teamwork is that ramboing is significantly more effective than it used to be. In that sense, you could say that CS has great teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At high level play, yes there is lots of teamwork. There are some pub communities that emphasize teamwork as well.
Again, utilizing efficient players and minimizing ineffective ones is the key to victory in any situation. I know I know, we are all on the Internet and everybody is equal and whatever, but lets face facts. Some players are better than others. Some players are so good that they can destroy another team. Some players are so terrible they can't do anything but build. Most players are in the middle standard deviation of the bell curve. Utilize the players to the best of their ability. If that means letting a few people rambo WHILE the other team expands, then so be it. I don't see how that isn't teamwork as long as the rambo's goal ties in with the overall team victory
Why not let the people who can take on a majority of the other team do so? Holding them back for the sake of "teamwork" when they are the most productive in the middle of the fray? Let the people who want to build, build as well, don't force them into situations that they will not thrive in. Lumping all the players into one category again for the sake of "teamwork" is maladaptive and inefficient.
Teamwork should be a tool to victory not a crutch. Use your assests to the best of their abilities, or let someone else command/take charge.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that everyone is, or should be, equal. But for the love of god, what is so damn hard to understand about this sentance?:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The problem, I think, with counting rambos toward teamwork is that ramboing is significantly more effective than it used to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that rambos can't be valueable, I'm saying that the game in its current state makes far more valuable than they should be in comparason to groups. Its not just the really good players ramboing, but the moderately good players and even some of the mearly decent players as well. The rambo/non-rambo ration is higher than it should be. It is my opinion that the game, in its current form, relies on rambos more than it should. How many other ways do I have to say it for you people to understand my meaning?
Oh, and FYI, I don't really give a ish about clan play because I have never been in a clan, nor do I ever plan to be in a clan, and I suspect that the vast majority of players who aren't in clans feel the same. Why do people always use that as an argument? If someone complains about balance its "Well, the game is balanced for 6v6", if someone complains that communication isn't as important as it should be its "Try playing in a clan, its much better". Its incredibly annoying.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited December 2006
Maybe less repeating and more elaborating?! I'm perfectly ok with your opinion, but in my opinion the efficiency of rambos is more related to the ns learning curve than to the gameplay, which is explained by the fact that good players deal better with rambos like I told in the last post. So the good players don't try to change the game, but rather adapt and more important have the experience to do so.
Sure, you could change game mechanics to prevent ramboing by changing marine's health regeneration, e.g. Field medics and nearby armories as the only way to get medpacks and ammo doesn't sound that bad, but would just be a too huge change to ns. Suggest it for ns2 and I'll give you my vote.
So what else does, in your opinion, encourage ramboing?
<!--quoteo(post=1589425:date=Dec 16 2006, 10:46 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Dec 16 2006, 10:46 PM) [snapback]1589425[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Whos whining about imbalance and cheaters? All I'm saying is that I think the gameplay of NS 3.x encourages ramboing by making it too effective. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you kidding me? ramboing is not nearly as effective as it should be, or was before. no more marine bhop? free upgrades for skulks? early lerks? self-healing gorges? there have been tons of changes made throughout ns's development that've made ramboing harder. and you are still complaining...
<!--quoteo(post=1589454:date=Dec 17 2006, 01:26 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Dec 17 2006, 01:26 AM) [snapback]1589454[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't think anyone is trying to say that everyone is, or should be, equal. But for the love of god, what is so damn hard to understand about this sentance?: I'm not saying that rambos can't be valueable, I'm saying that the game in its current state makes far more valuable than they should be in comparason to groups. Its not just the really good players ramboing, but the moderately good players and even some of the mearly decent players as well. The rambo/non-rambo ration is higher than it should be. It is my opinion that the game, in its current form, relies on rambos more than it should. How many other ways do I have to say it for you people to understand my meaning?
Oh, and FYI, I don't really give a ish about clan play because I have never been in a clan, nor do I ever plan to be in a clan, and I suspect that the vast majority of players who aren't in clans feel the same. Why do people always use that as an argument? If someone complains about balance its "Well, the game is balanced for 6v6", if someone complains that communication isn't as important as it should be its "Try playing in a clan, its much better". Its incredibly annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it kind of ironic that your signature says "1.04ever" in the time where Rambos were their most dominant due to silent bunnyhopping, generally poor alien play, and lack of counters on the alien side. Now you are crying "Rambo" when with each new version, rambos have taken a dive because the aliens learned how to get a little better, and there are available counters in the beginning other than ambushing.
The competitive players are citing relevant examples from their gameplay experience, I see no crime in that.
I recommend you find a server that bans competitive players that way you don't have to deal with them. The highest skilled player(s) determine the tempo of the game for everyone else in the server, meaning if they are using techniques and skills that are A)Frowned Upon 8( B)Not used due to eHonour C)Not Developed by the average NSer or D) All of the above, those players will get destroyed by people who utilize said techniques and skills.
Don't subject yourself to that kind of gameplay, find a server that bans competitive play and at the end of each game, make sure they have a plugin so both teams are winners. Casual players will always be submissive to competitive players in a pub enviornment until the admin bans the competitive players(s). Don't be submissive anymore, empower yourself and find that server!
Just come on out and start flaming that guy. I don't know why you are bothering with such sarcastic posts. OH AND BTW RAMBO4EVAR.
To nubbait: This game is called natural selection, either adapt or go die in a fire. This game has never catered to either pubs nor the clanners so stop crying and whining. You want NS1.04ever go play it then and stop wasting people's time on these forums. Every ###### post i see you whining about rambos, skilled players, and blah and blah. Maybe the problem isn't the game but YOU. Think about it.
Now I'm pretty sure my post is gonna be edited and I'll be warned. But it never ceases to amaze me why NUBTARDS like you keep posting the same thing over and over again and are not stopped. And he keeps on baiting over and over. Guys, listen to me, you are never gonna change his point of view. So don't bother its just wasting valuable unknownworlds bandwidth.
<!--quoteo(post=1589526:date=Dec 17 2006, 12:33 PM:name=Hassaan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hassaan @ Dec 17 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]1589526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just come on out and start flaming that guy. I don't know why you are bothering with such sarcastic posts. OH AND BTW RAMBO4EVAR.
To nubbait: This game is called natural selection, either adapt or go die in a fire. This game has never catered to either pubs nor the clanners so stop crying and whining. You want NS1.04ever go play it then and stop wasting people's time on these forums. Every ###### post i see you whining about rambos, skilled players, and blah and blah. Maybe the problem isn't the game but YOU. Think about it.
Now I'm pretty sure my post is gonna be edited and I'll be warned. But it never ceases to amaze me why NUBTARDS like you keep posting the same thing over and over again and are not stopped. And he keeps on baiting over and over. Guys, listen to me, you are never gonna change his point of view. So don't bother its just wasting valuable unknownworlds bandwidth.
Yours in love, Hassaan. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complaints are the only weapons that the in-game submissive have, despite the fact that they are mostly ineffective.
I think this is pretty oviously just a question about a difference in skill levels. If the teams were filled with players of around the same skill level, you would be hard pressed to find very effective lone players roaming the map. If you however, as it is on most pubs, mix bad and average players with two or three much better players this will obviously upset the default strenght between different units.
Only ways to get around this is either to start playing in organised matches where you're in a team that fits you and you play a team on your level, or do what Firewater said and find a server where you remove players who are too good.
As for the "when I was young..." argument, what the f***? In 1.04 and even 2.01 lone marines were much more effective. As Tomekki said: change to enable bhop without losing speed when hitting the cap, early lerks, unbound life forms from hives, no marine bhopping, silent walk removed, faster skulks, more agile skulks, free upgrades, better upgrades, random shotgun, default alien tactics and teamplay improved, better hitboxes (1.0-2.01 hitboxes where hard to find, but when you found them you basically couldn't miss a skulk if you wanted), wallwalk, walljump and probably a few more that I can't remember.
I like ramboing for 2 reasons: 1. allows more flexibility in smaller games, 2. promotes individual skill
atm rambos really arent much of a threat, but theyre not paper either <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Hassaan, Judging by your join date you have no right to be calling anybody "nub". So tell you what, why don't you take your post (which I'm not even going to bother to read) and shove it just right up your ######, k? That goes for all of you who are aparently unable to express your viewpoint without insults. Too much CS in you mayhap?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe less repeating and more elaborating?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the current version of NS, combat relies more on FPS point-n-click-WASD skill than it used to (it used to be more tactical, due to lower damage amounts and higher health and armor IIRC). Higher alien lifeforms have been significantly weakend because they are no longer chained to hives. Additionally, R4K effectively makes medpacks free for good players. This makes it much easier for a lone marine to remain alive longer and kill more enemies (thus giving more R4K).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there have been tons of changes made throughout ns's development that've made ramboing harder. and you are still complaining...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was expressing an opinion, not complaining. Hell, I don't even play this game anymore so I could really care less where it goes because it sure as hell aint going back to the way I liked it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it kind of ironic that your signature says "1.04ever" in the time where Rambos were their most dominant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I've said before whenever this gets said: I don't know what servers you were playing on, but even a mediocre-at-best player like myself was able to defeat rambos with ease. Of course, its entirely possible my memory is bad, but I doubt its <i>that</i> bad.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The competitive players are citing relevant examples from their gameplay experience, I see no crime in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't have a problem if that was all they were doing (indeed, some of them are just doing that), I have a problem when they expect that the rest of the community should suffer through something thats a real problem in pubs just because it isn't a problem in clan play. someone will state that they think X is a problem, and some clanner will come in and say that X isn't a problem in clan play.
Banning good players is just stupid. We had good players way-back-when too you know, and they did set the tempo of the game, but they did it by motivating their team to do what they knew needed to be done, not by raboing off and never communicating. Again, its entirely possible my memory is fuzzy, but I doubt it. The only thing I remember for sure was that every update after a certain magical version of NS has made it less and less fun.
IF YOU DON'T ###### PLAY THIS GAME ANYMORE, WHY ARE YOU WHINING AND COMPLAINING?! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> Go to the Cal-ns forums if you wanna do that lol.
Oh yeah, the join date and the number of forum posts make your e-[male-specific body part] larger. Kudos kid. They mean nothing like the internet.
Maybe he's just cranky because somebody stole his pacifier, I don't know.
Just in case anyone else missed it, I'll reitterate:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was expressing an opinion, not complaining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did my share of complaining when I first noticed the game moving away from what I considered fun, but the devs made it abundantly clear that the changes would continue to take the game down that path, so I stopped. When a thread like this popus up I'll throw in my opinion, but thats the extent of it. Still, saying the things I say (without even suggesting that they be changed!) is enough to set most people off. I have no idea what their problem is.
oh ya in reply to pages 2-4 I FOUND THEM! :O My PC died a coupla days ago and for some reason today I was looking at the 3.1 server lists, there must have been atleast 6 full euro servers going at the time... this seems to suggest that the population has GONE UP... but theyre no-name players (not bots I checked)... playing 3.1 :o So this looks like an actual real increase in players theyre just not all playing 3.2 (which is ish hot btw).
On the subject of elitish ragers, I think people fail to appreciate, atleast I find myself guilty of this sometimes, is that a lot of people who play NS are quite young and will rage or ###### more than a normal human being would <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Quite alarmingly I have found myself raging on a couple of occasions in the past few weeks! Though the main factor of aggrovation in these is ignorance w/ a healthy dose of personal harassment. Which is pretty pathetic lol but it IS a rarity <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> The only thing in this part that I would agree with on this point is that those sorts of people place too much concious thought into reg etc, if they just relaxed and phased such things out of their mind they would play better and probably be more flexible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I was playing a few games on NS-Game today and was quite pleased with the level of cooperation on both teams, no I wasnt impressed with the sophistication of the game but it was certainly an enjoyable series of double edged battles with a sense of achievement on victory.
With regards to how teamwork is percieved(i think this is directed at your post firewater?) generally the two things youre looking at from my own analysis are. A level of coordination (a communication listen-talk method of some kind, text, voicecomm, telepathy, smokesignals, whatever) combined with EVERYONE taking RESPONSIBILITY for the team(a kind of active teamwork thats not exactly hard to work with <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
One last thing... whats with all the personal attacks in this thread? :/
It has been almost 18 months since I last played this game. I just recently bought a copy of Half-Life, and immediately got a hold of this mod. Even though some things have changed, I must say I had the most fun I've had in a very, very long time. And I don't even have a working sound card!
Glad to hear it khaze! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> You know what you need to do now, get all your m8s to play it and make it EVEN MORE fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The man loves to quote himself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The man loves to quote himself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The man loves to quote himself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Banning good players is just stupid. We had good players way-back-when too you know, and they did set the tempo of the game, but they did it by motivating their team to do what they knew needed to be done, not by raboing off and never communicating. Again, its entirely possible my memory is fuzzy, but I doubt it. The only thing I remember for sure was that every update after a certain magical version of NS has made it less and less fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a little hint of sarcasm in there, sorry you didn't pick it up.
I think your memory is quite fuzzy actually, because you forgetting that one JP/HMG can destroy a hive in one and a half clips. I dunno how that involves any teamwork or any people other than the one player for the most part.
Good players were mostly cocky, I know my team was. It was a new game to showcase talents. The competitive community was very arrogant until it the scene was dying off a little bit. It wasn't until NSlearn was launched that attempted to bridge the gaps between the competitive community. That wasn't until 3.0.
Sounds like you need to do a little Dumpster Diving to clear your mind.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the current version of NS, combat relies more on FPS point-n-click-WASD skill than it used to (it used to be more tactical, due to lower damage amounts and higher health and armor IIRC). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you remember wrong. stop talking about things you dont know a thing about. you dont even play this game anymore, and i'm having serious doubts of whether you ever did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was expressing an opinion, not complaining. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> well done, you completely avoided my main clause (read back if you already forgot what it was) and instead grabbed hold of the only part of the sentence you could assault. fine argumentation right there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't have a problem if that was all they were doing (indeed, some of them are just doing that), I have a problem when they expect that the rest of the community should suffer through something thats a real problem in pubs just because it isn't a problem in clan play. someone will state that they think X is a problem, and some clanner will come in and say that X isn't a problem in clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> suffer? god, this is a Free Online Game. if youre suffering whenever you play the game, why play it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We had good players way-back-when too you know, and they did set the tempo of the game, but they did it by motivating their team to do what they knew needed to be done, not by raboing off and never communicating. Again, its entirely possible my memory is fuzzy, but I doubt it. The only thing I remember for sure was that every update after a certain magical version of NS has made it less and less fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> oh, you can still motivate your teammates to doing something that's so childishly obvious that it almost makes you cry to see them not understand (it). but its hard. and it gets harder. why? that i cannot answer. maybe its because the playerbase has gotten younger (by overall). or maybe its because it has gotten older, and more stubborn not to listen to anybody else but themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1589573:date=Dec 17 2006, 01:58 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Dec 17 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]1589573[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Hassaan, Judging by your join date you have no right to be calling anybody "nub". So tell you what, why don't you take your post (which I'm not even going to bother to read) and shove it just right up your ######, k? That goes for all of you who are aparently unable to express your viewpoint without insults. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
join date and post count <i>must</i> mean everything, I mean look at Talesin
T0mekki, I'm forced to wonder, do you do anything but flame? Ever? Somewhere deep down, is theres a piece of you that isn't an ######?
I've already siad that my memory could be wrong, afterall it is clouded by nostalgia. I don't think it is, but many of you do, and thats fine. As I said, all I know for certain is that as the game progressed from 1.04 things kept getting less fun for me.
The reason I didn't respond to the rest of your post is because it was unimportant. I'm willing to let those statements go unchallenged because I really don't care. But I challenged the piece at the end because it was about me and it wasn't true.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->suffer? god, this is a Free Online Game. if youre suffering whenever you play the game, why play it? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) If putting up with people like you isn't suffering, then I don't know what is. B) I don't play it, as you well know. I made that statement because I remember how much I used to hear it, and how annoying it was, and how I still see it used.
BTW, I'd like to congradulate you on sucessfully derailing annother thread because you just can't keep yourself from flaming me. Good Job.
EDIT: Wasn't saying that his join date meant anything about him other than it doesn't look like he's been playing longer than me, and therefore couldn't call me a nub.
<i>Fighting over the internet is like racing in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded</i>
Most, if not all, wont' accept other understandings of the game than their own. To make it simple: Play where you like and where you are welcome. If you don't like the server rules, switch to another (or better, make your own!). And if you prefer the rambo way because you are so 1337 with you skillz etc, search yourself a server where you are welcome, too.
Comments
They rather set up an ambush with multiple aliens or wait for a better lifeform to charge the rambo <b>together</b> maybe even from different sides.
Rambos are effective vs bad players which seems the first step in (playing) natural selection.
Adapt to this and attack together or whine about imbalance and cheaters and quit the game.
Which again leads without fail to the discussion about the game's learning curve and the tough start for new players, especially when they don't care about reading the manual or forums to improve their skill.
Whos whining about imbalance and cheaters? All I'm saying is that I think the gameplay of NS 3.x encourages ramboing by making it too effective.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play tremulous and then you won't agree with what you said.
The problem, I think, with counting rambos toward teamwork is that ramboing is significantly more effective than it used to be. In that sense, you could say that CS has great teamwork.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At high level play, yes there is lots of teamwork. There are some pub communities that emphasize teamwork as well.
Again, utilizing efficient players and minimizing ineffective ones is the key to victory in any situation. I know I know, we are all on the Internet and everybody is equal and whatever, but lets face facts. Some players are better than others. Some players are so good that they can destroy another team. Some players are so terrible they can't do anything but build. Most players are in the middle standard deviation of the bell curve. Utilize the players to the best of their ability. If that means letting a few people rambo WHILE the other team expands, then so be it. I don't see how that isn't teamwork as long as the rambo's goal ties in with the overall team victory
Why not let the people who can take on a majority of the other team do so? Holding them back for the sake of "teamwork" when they are the most productive in the middle of the fray? Let the people who want to build, build as well, don't force them into situations that they will not thrive in. Lumping all the players into one category again for the sake of "teamwork" is maladaptive and inefficient.
Teamwork should be a tool to victory not a crutch. Use your assests to the best of their abilities, or let someone else command/take charge.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The problem, I think, with counting rambos toward teamwork is that ramboing is significantly more effective than it used to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that rambos can't be valueable, I'm saying that the game in its current state makes far more valuable than they should be in comparason to groups. Its not just the really good players ramboing, but the moderately good players and even some of the mearly decent players as well. The rambo/non-rambo ration is higher than it should be. It is my opinion that the game, in its current form, relies on rambos more than it should. How many other ways do I have to say it for you people to understand my meaning?
Oh, and FYI, I don't really give a ish about clan play because I have never been in a clan, nor do I ever plan to be in a clan, and I suspect that the vast majority of players who aren't in clans feel the same. Why do people always use that as an argument? If someone complains about balance its "Well, the game is balanced for 6v6", if someone complains that communication isn't as important as it should be its "Try playing in a clan, its much better". Its incredibly annoying.
I'm perfectly ok with your opinion, but in my opinion the efficiency of rambos is more related to the ns learning curve than to the gameplay,
which is explained by the fact that good players deal better with rambos like I told in the last post.
So the good players don't try to change the game, but rather adapt and more important have the experience to do so.
Sure, you could change game mechanics to prevent ramboing by changing marine's health regeneration, e.g.
Field medics and nearby armories as the only way to get medpacks and ammo doesn't sound that bad, but would just be a too huge change to ns.
Suggest it for ns2 and I'll give you my vote.
So what else does, in your opinion, encourage ramboing?
Whos whining about imbalance and cheaters? All I'm saying is that I think the gameplay of NS 3.x encourages ramboing by making it too effective.
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are you kidding me? ramboing is not nearly as effective as it should be, or was before. no more marine bhop? free upgrades for skulks? early lerks? self-healing gorges? there have been tons of changes made throughout ns's development that've made ramboing harder. and you are still complaining...
I don't think anyone is trying to say that everyone is, or should be, equal. But for the love of god, what is so damn hard to understand about this sentance?:
I'm not saying that rambos can't be valueable, I'm saying that the game in its current state makes far more valuable than they should be in comparason to groups. Its not just the really good players ramboing, but the moderately good players and even some of the mearly decent players as well. The rambo/non-rambo ration is higher than it should be. It is my opinion that the game, in its current form, relies on rambos more than it should. How many other ways do I have to say it for you people to understand my meaning?
Oh, and FYI, I don't really give a ish about clan play because I have never been in a clan, nor do I ever plan to be in a clan, and I suspect that the vast majority of players who aren't in clans feel the same. Why do people always use that as an argument? If someone complains about balance its "Well, the game is balanced for 6v6", if someone complains that communication isn't as important as it should be its "Try playing in a clan, its much better". Its incredibly annoying.
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I find it kind of ironic that your signature says "1.04ever" in the time where Rambos were their most dominant due to silent bunnyhopping, generally poor alien play, and lack of counters on the alien side. Now you are crying "Rambo" when with each new version, rambos have taken a dive because the aliens learned how to get a little better, and there are available counters in the beginning other than ambushing.
The competitive players are citing relevant examples from their gameplay experience, I see no crime in that.
I recommend you find a server that bans competitive players that way you don't have to deal with them. The highest skilled player(s) determine the tempo of the game for everyone else in the server, meaning if they are using techniques and skills that are A)Frowned Upon 8( B)Not used due to eHonour C)Not Developed by the average NSer or D) All of the above, those players will get destroyed by people who utilize said techniques and skills.
Don't subject yourself to that kind of gameplay, find a server that bans competitive play and at the end of each game, make sure they have a plugin so both teams are winners. Casual players will always be submissive to competitive players in a pub enviornment until the admin bans the competitive players(s). Don't be submissive anymore, empower yourself and find that server!
To nubbait: This game is called natural selection, either adapt or go die in a fire. This game has never catered to either pubs nor the clanners so stop crying and whining. You want NS1.04ever go play it then and stop wasting people's time on these forums. Every ###### post i see you whining about rambos, skilled players, and blah and blah. Maybe the problem isn't the game but YOU. Think about it.
Now I'm pretty sure my post is gonna be edited and I'll be warned. But it never ceases to amaze me why NUBTARDS like you keep posting the same thing over and over again and are not stopped. And he keeps on baiting over and over. Guys, listen to me, you are never gonna change his point of view. So don't bother its just wasting valuable unknownworlds bandwidth.
Yours in love,
Hassaan.
Just come on out and start flaming that guy. I don't know why you are bothering with such sarcastic posts. OH AND BTW RAMBO4EVAR.
To nubbait: This game is called natural selection, either adapt or go die in a fire. This game has never catered to either pubs nor the clanners so stop crying and whining. You want NS1.04ever go play it then and stop wasting people's time on these forums. Every ###### post i see you whining about rambos, skilled players, and blah and blah. Maybe the problem isn't the game but YOU. Think about it.
Now I'm pretty sure my post is gonna be edited and I'll be warned. But it never ceases to amaze me why NUBTARDS like you keep posting the same thing over and over again and are not stopped. And he keeps on baiting over and over. Guys, listen to me, you are never gonna change his point of view. So don't bother its just wasting valuable unknownworlds bandwidth.
Yours in love,
Hassaan.
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Complaints are the only weapons that the in-game submissive have, despite the fact that they are mostly ineffective.
Only ways to get around this is either to start playing in organised matches where you're in a team that fits you and you play a team on your level, or do what Firewater said and find a server where you remove players who are too good.
As for the "when I was young..." argument, what the f***? In 1.04 and even 2.01 lone marines were much more effective. As Tomekki said: change to enable bhop without losing speed when hitting the cap, early lerks, unbound life forms from hives, no marine bhopping, silent walk removed, faster skulks, more agile skulks, free upgrades, better upgrades, random shotgun, default alien tactics and teamplay improved, better hitboxes (1.0-2.01 hitboxes where hard to find, but when you found them you basically couldn't miss a skulk if you wanted), wallwalk, walljump and probably a few more that I can't remember.
atm rambos really arent much of a threat, but theyre not paper either <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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In the current version of NS, combat relies more on FPS point-n-click-WASD skill than it used to (it used to be more tactical, due to lower damage amounts and higher health and armor IIRC). Higher alien lifeforms have been significantly weakend because they are no longer chained to hives. Additionally, R4K effectively makes medpacks free for good players. This makes it much easier for a lone marine to remain alive longer and kill more enemies (thus giving more R4K).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there have been tons of changes made throughout ns's development that've made ramboing harder. and you are still complaining...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was expressing an opinion, not complaining. Hell, I don't even play this game anymore so I could really care less where it goes because it sure as hell aint going back to the way I liked it.
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As I've said before whenever this gets said: I don't know what servers you were playing on, but even a mediocre-at-best player like myself was able to defeat rambos with ease. Of course, its entirely possible my memory is bad, but I doubt its <i>that</i> bad.
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I wouldn't have a problem if that was all they were doing (indeed, some of them are just doing that), I have a problem when they expect that the rest of the community should suffer through something thats a real problem in pubs just because it isn't a problem in clan play. someone will state that they think X is a problem, and some clanner will come in and say that X isn't a problem in clan play.
Banning good players is just stupid. We had good players way-back-when too you know, and they did set the tempo of the game, but they did it by motivating their team to do what they knew needed to be done, not by raboing off and never communicating. Again, its entirely possible my memory is fuzzy, but I doubt it. The only thing I remember for sure was that every update after a certain magical version of NS has made it less and less fun.
Go to the Cal-ns forums if you wanna do that lol.
Oh yeah, the join date and the number of forum posts make your e-[male-specific body part] larger. Kudos kid. They mean nothing like the internet.
Just in case anyone else missed it, I'll reitterate:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was expressing an opinion, not complaining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did my share of complaining when I first noticed the game moving away from what I considered fun, but the devs made it abundantly clear that the changes would continue to take the game down that path, so I stopped. When a thread like this popus up I'll throw in my opinion, but thats the extent of it. Still, saying the things I say (without even suggesting that they be changed!) is enough to set most people off. I have no idea what their problem is.
My PC died a coupla days ago and for some reason today I was looking at the 3.1 server lists, there must have been atleast 6 full euro servers going at the time... this seems to suggest that the population has GONE UP... but theyre no-name players (not bots I checked)... playing 3.1 :o So this looks like an actual real increase in players theyre just not all playing 3.2 (which is ish hot btw).
On the subject of elitish ragers, I think people fail to appreciate, atleast I find myself guilty of this sometimes, is that a lot of people who play NS are quite young and will rage or ###### more than a normal human being would <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Quite alarmingly I have found myself raging on a couple of occasions in the past few weeks! Though the main factor of aggrovation in these is ignorance w/ a healthy dose of personal harassment. Which is pretty pathetic lol but it IS a rarity <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
The only thing in this part that I would agree with on this point is that those sorts of people place too much concious thought into reg etc, if they just relaxed and phased such things out of their mind they would play better and probably be more flexible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I was playing a few games on NS-Game today and was quite pleased with the level of cooperation on both teams, no I wasnt impressed with the sophistication of the game but it was certainly an enjoyable series of double edged battles with a sense of achievement on victory.
With regards to how teamwork is percieved(i think this is directed at your post firewater?) generally the two things youre looking at from my own analysis are. A level of coordination (a communication listen-talk method of some kind, text, voicecomm, telepathy, smokesignals, whatever) combined with EVERYONE taking RESPONSIBILITY for the team(a kind of active teamwork thats not exactly hard to work with <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
One last thing... whats with all the personal attacks in this thread? :/
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I had a little hint of sarcasm in there, sorry you didn't pick it up.
I think your memory is quite fuzzy actually, because you forgetting that one JP/HMG can destroy a hive in one and a half clips. I dunno how that involves any teamwork or any people other than the one player for the most part.
Good players were mostly cocky, I know my team was. It was a new game to showcase talents. The competitive community was very arrogant until it the scene was dying off a little bit. It wasn't until NSlearn was launched that attempted to bridge the gaps between the competitive community. That wasn't until 3.0.
Sounds like you need to do a little Dumpster Diving to clear your mind.
you remember wrong. stop talking about things you dont know a thing about. you dont even play this game anymore, and i'm having serious doubts of whether you ever did.
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well done, you completely avoided my main clause (read back if you already forgot what it was) and instead grabbed hold of the only part of the sentence you could assault. fine argumentation right there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't have a problem if that was all they were doing (indeed, some of them are just doing that), I have a problem when they expect that the rest of the community should suffer through something thats a real problem in pubs just because it isn't a problem in clan play. someone will state that they think X is a problem, and some clanner will come in and say that X isn't a problem in clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
suffer? god, this is a Free Online Game. if youre suffering whenever you play the game, why play it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We had good players way-back-when too you know, and they did set the tempo of the game, but they did it by motivating their team to do what they knew needed to be done, not by raboing off and never communicating. Again, its entirely possible my memory is fuzzy, but I doubt it. The only thing I remember for sure was that every update after a certain magical version of NS has made it less and less fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh, you can still motivate your teammates to doing something that's so childishly obvious that it almost makes you cry to see them not understand (it). but its hard. and it gets harder. why? that i cannot answer. maybe its because the playerbase has gotten younger (by overall). or maybe its because it has gotten older, and more stubborn not to listen to anybody else but themselves.
Hassaan, Judging by your join date you have no right to be calling anybody "nub". So tell you what, why don't you take your post (which I'm not even going to bother to read) and shove it just right up your ######, k? That goes for all of you who are aparently unable to express your viewpoint without insults.
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join date and post count <i>must</i> mean everything, I mean look at Talesin
I've already siad that my memory could be wrong, afterall it is clouded by nostalgia. I don't think it is, but many of you do, and thats fine. As I said, all I know for certain is that as the game progressed from 1.04 things kept getting less fun for me.
The reason I didn't respond to the rest of your post is because it was unimportant. I'm willing to let those statements go unchallenged because I really don't care. But I challenged the piece at the end because it was about me and it wasn't true.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->suffer? god, this is a Free Online Game. if youre suffering whenever you play the game, why play it? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) If putting up with people like you isn't suffering, then I don't know what is. B) I don't play it, as you well know. I made that statement because I remember how much I used to hear it, and how annoying it was, and how I still see it used.
BTW, I'd like to congradulate you on sucessfully derailing annother thread because you just can't keep yourself from flaming me. Good Job.
EDIT:
Wasn't saying that his join date meant anything about him other than it doesn't look like he's been playing longer than me, and therefore couldn't call me a nub.
I'm out.
Most, if not all, wont' accept other understandings of the game than their own. To make it simple: Play where you like and where you are welcome. If you don't like the server rules, switch to another (or better, make your own!). And if you prefer the rambo way because you are so 1337 with you skillz etc, search yourself a server where you are welcome, too.