<!--quoteo(post=1591004:date=Dec 21 2006, 03:05 PM:name=Electrical_Tape)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Electrical_Tape @ Dec 21 2006, 03:05 PM) [snapback]1591004[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You state all these things as facts, but where is the evidence to back up your claims? Supposedly, all "competitive" NS players despise Xmenu and Buildmenu, but wheres the proof? Can you give me a survey of all the "competitive" NS players who have left the game, all citing Xmenu and Buildmenu as the primary cause for their leaving? Can you give me an NS population timeline dating back to several months before the induction of Xmenu and Buildmenu, up to today, and show me a noticable decline at the same point Xmenu and Buildmenu were created? Can you totally discount all other possible reasons for why NS is declining?
And before someone says "just look at the boards" for proof of Xmenu's malevolence, realize that a few outspoken members of a community are not a gauge for anything. Show me some real proof.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You ask for something you know you can't have from me. I don't think the dev's even have something that in-depth. But you probably knew from the begining that this argument can't be won through emperical means. Your arguments are no more sound than mine. After all, without data, who is to say that we aren't both lying through our teeth? All we both have is our own experiences and own observations. I prefer a game that I can say that I lost because my team wasn't as skilled as the other team. If you want to play the NS equvilent of Rocket Crowbar and enjoy it, more power to you, but through my own observations of other games with those mods, stuff like that doesn't keep a stable playerbase. After all, once the initial 'afterglow' of the mod being new and exciting wears off, what incentive is there for a player to try and get better at the game if the whole thing is an unbalanced mess?
The best we can hope for is a "Pure" server modifier that is filterable that can filter out server side mods like that. Hopefully, the GOOD serverside mods that actually do something to enhance the gameplay can speak for themselves.
Also, please don't misconstrew me to think that NS is dying JUST because of terrible servers. This topic is about terrible serverside mods, but the site being down for a year and CAL pulling out didn't help either. Now that the community is back, the future is looking bright, and hopefully NS2 will have a sort of 'reboot' effect on NS, which will bring in a huge influx of new players and disgrunteld vets alike. Here's hoping.
EDIT: Also, there's no ill will from me towards Depot. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1591108:date=Dec 21 2006, 09:29 PM:name=ultranewb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ultranewb @ Dec 21 2006, 09:29 PM) [snapback]1591108[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The goal and the outcome of combat are two different things. One could argue that anything that circumvents that goal is harmful against the devs and their/our game.
What was combat created for? Why does it exist? Initially, it was something meaningless to do while waiting to fill the server with enough players to play <i>normal</i> NS. They may have also been some aspect of training a new player in the overall goal, but I don't recall a mention of that and I might bring this point up later.
The outcome is obvious. A game designed for quick games between a few players was *******ized into something else. Instead of attracting people to join a server with an intererum mini-game, it suplemented the game entirely. Instead of having a quick game, plugins - once again - circumvent this with 3 plugins that unbalance team levels by inflating the XP pool (free/late join XP), make players stronger than designed (>10 levels), and do things the game was never designed for (xmenu).
If you try to have an NS server with combat for when the server has too few players, you'll have 2 massive problems when it changes to a normal map. Combat only players will leave, leaving server - once again - with too few players to have a meaningful game and the server will quickly die. The other result is worse, the combat players stay and try to play the game like combat - no communication, no teamwork, reswh*re and insta-die because they can't go cara regen redempt fade with focus adren and celer (and insta-leave the server when they die). NS players new to the server leave - disgusted with the lack of decent players - and don't add it to their favorites. Combat kills the server instead of doing it's original goal. Combat doesn't even use parts of normal NS maps for its games so that combat players will be familiar with the layouts of any NS maps.
If you're saying I've just stated what happens with combat and haven't addressed XMenu specificly - except for one sentence - then you're right. Combat wasn't meant to have any depth of play or breadth of time. If, indeed, combat was meant to train new players, it adds a boatload of things that aren't in NS. Stacked aliens upgrades are bad enough for training players badly how to play the aliens - xmenu upgrades make it way worse. It's not uncommon for an Xmenu combat match to run 6x longer than the design's default max playtime. There's less incintive to move on to NS and even more of a possibility that the player will burn out on NS and leave completely before even playing normal NS. There's also the simple time matter. Players that actually do play both NS modes spend longer not playing normal NS when combat match times are artificially inflated and games balances are unnaturally altered. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This shows every ns server that is online right now. Servers with a <img src="http://src.psix.info/modified.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> icon after them, have plugins running that modify gameplay.
You can check which server dont run such plugins on this way.
This shows every ns server that is online right now. Servers with a <img src="http://src.psix.info/modified.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> icon after them, have plugins running that modify gameplay.
You can check which server dont run such plugins on this way. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the Natural Selection Server Browser, created by one of our Developers, mE. NS v3.2 do not show on there yet, but should soon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You ask for something you know you can't have from me. I don't think the dev's even have something that in-depth. But you probably knew from the begining that this argument can't be won through emperical means. Your arguments are no more sound than mine. After all, without data, who is to say that we aren't both lying through our teeth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I did know that this argument could not be won through evidence, as no evidence exists that would substantiate such an outrageous claim as "Xmenu killed NS". But, the only reason I am asking for such evidence is because the above claim is constantly proclaimed as fact, and not opinion. Most people do not seem to understand the difference between the two, and if they do, then they seem to think that a statement made as a fact with no supporting evidence carries more weight than one made as an opinion without supporting evidence.
Saying "Xmenu killed NS" is going to make people ask "well, why did it kill NS?". Answering that with another opinion made out to be a fact is just going to continue the cycle, and nothing gets done.
Saying "I think Xmenu killed NS" is completely different. It shows that you are giving your opinion. You are still going to be questioned as to why you think that, but if you reply with another opinion, such as, "Well, judging from my own person experiences, I noticed a decline in the NS population the months following Xmenus wide spread use", you are much more likely to be considered as a meaningful voice on the forums, instead of someone who has nothing better to do than troll forums and start arguments with toothless facts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All we both have is our own experiences and own observations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Thats all we have, all of us. And with only that, all we have are our opinions.
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
Im not sure if this is already said because i skiped the last 3 or 4 pages (dont got the time to read everything).
The main reason for all the plugins in CO is because the game hasen't been updated to any big amount for a long while. People just got bored of the good old orginial stuff, so they added their own stuff (plugins). CO also encouraged the people from CS (the amazing people with super aiming skills) to come play CO, which is good, but hurt the game balance very much.
I can't blame the dev team because of the funding scarity, large amount of work needed done before the game etc. I cant blame us either because we get bored. Its just a chain reaction, the only solution i can think of is vs. 4.0 (doubt it would really happen) or better, NS2, but i dunno how well they would work.
You're arguing semantics. It should be a given that what we post here is our opinions unless we come out and explicitly claim it as a fact. I think a little bit of good faith on your part would go a long way in the future, because it results in silly dead end arguments like "Are we stating things as facts or opinions?". Not one single person in this entire thread has felt the need to back up his statements with statistics. In fact, only one person in this thread brought them at all, and he just threw them out there, for better or for worse. But is that necissarily even a bad thing? I don't feel like writing an annotated dissertation every time I post, and I also don't feel like being choosey with my words, because I feel they dillute how strongly I feel on the subject.
INTERNET PROTIP: Unless other people on the internet either (1) Explicitly state that it is a fact, (2) Back it up with statistics instead of mere logic, you should assume what people say are their opinions.
Comments
o p i n i <b><u><i>o</i></u></b> n ***
You state all these things as facts, but where is the evidence to back up your claims? Supposedly, all "competitive" NS players despise Xmenu and Buildmenu, but wheres the proof? Can you give me a survey of all the "competitive" NS players who have left the game, all citing Xmenu and Buildmenu as the primary cause for their leaving? Can you give me an NS population timeline dating back to several months before the induction of Xmenu and Buildmenu, up to today, and show me a noticable decline at the same point Xmenu and Buildmenu were created? Can you totally discount all other possible reasons for why NS is declining?
And before someone says "just look at the boards" for proof of Xmenu's malevolence, realize that a few outspoken members of a community are not a gauge for anything. Show me some real proof.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You ask for something you know you can't have from me. I don't think the dev's even have something that in-depth. But you probably knew from the begining that this argument can't be won through emperical means. Your arguments are no more sound than mine. After all, without data, who is to say that we aren't both lying through our teeth? All we both have is our own experiences and own observations. I prefer a game that I can say that I lost because my team wasn't as skilled as the other team. If you want to play the NS equvilent of Rocket Crowbar and enjoy it, more power to you, but through my own observations of other games with those mods, stuff like that doesn't keep a stable playerbase. After all, once the initial 'afterglow' of the mod being new and exciting wears off, what incentive is there for a player to try and get better at the game if the whole thing is an unbalanced mess?
The best we can hope for is a "Pure" server modifier that is filterable that can filter out server side mods like that. Hopefully, the GOOD serverside mods that actually do something to enhance the gameplay can speak for themselves.
Also, please don't misconstrew me to think that NS is dying JUST because of terrible servers. This topic is about terrible serverside mods, but the site being down for a year and CAL pulling out didn't help either. Now that the community is back, the future is looking bright, and hopefully NS2 will have a sort of 'reboot' effect on NS, which will bring in a huge influx of new players and disgrunteld vets alike. Here's hoping.
EDIT: Also, there's no ill will from me towards Depot. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The goal and the outcome of combat are two different things. One could argue that anything that circumvents that goal is harmful against the devs and their/our game.
What was combat created for? Why does it exist? Initially, it was something meaningless to do while waiting to fill the server with enough players to play <i>normal</i> NS. They may have also been some aspect of training a new player in the overall goal, but I don't recall a mention of that and I might bring this point up later.
The outcome is obvious. A game designed for quick games between a few players was *******ized into something else. Instead of attracting people to join a server with an intererum mini-game, it suplemented the game entirely. Instead of having a quick game, plugins - once again - circumvent this with 3 plugins that unbalance team levels by inflating the XP pool (free/late join XP), make players stronger than designed (>10 levels), and do things the game was never designed for (xmenu).
If you try to have an NS server with combat for when the server has too few players, you'll have 2 massive problems when it changes to a normal map. Combat only players will leave, leaving server - once again - with too few players to have a meaningful game and the server will quickly die. The other result is worse, the combat players stay and try to play the game like combat - no communication, no teamwork, reswh*re and insta-die because they can't go cara regen redempt fade with focus adren and celer (and insta-leave the server when they die). NS players new to the server leave - disgusted with the lack of decent players - and don't add it to their favorites. Combat kills the server instead of doing it's original goal. Combat doesn't even use parts of normal NS maps for its games so that combat players will be familiar with the layouts of any NS maps.
If you're saying I've just stated what happens with combat and haven't addressed XMenu specificly - except for one sentence - then you're right. Combat wasn't meant to have any depth of play or breadth of time. If, indeed, combat was meant to train new players, it adds a boatload of things that aren't in NS. Stacked aliens upgrades are bad enough for training players badly how to play the aliens - xmenu upgrades make it way worse. It's not uncommon for an Xmenu combat match to run 6x longer than the design's default max playtime. There's less incintive to move on to NS and even more of a possibility that the player will burn out on NS and leave completely before even playing normal NS. There's also the simple time matter. Players that actually do play both NS modes spend longer not playing normal NS when combat match times are artificially inflated and games balances are unnaturally altered.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man knows what hes talking about.
<a href="http://www.nsbrowser.org/en/browser/servers/" target="_blank">http://www.nsbrowser.org/en/browser/servers/</a>
This shows every ns server that is online right now.
Servers with a <img src="http://src.psix.info/modified.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> icon after them, have plugins running that modify gameplay.
You can check which server dont run such plugins on this way.
Here:
<a href="http://www.nsbrowser.org/en/browser/servers/" target="_blank">http://www.nsbrowser.org/en/browser/servers/</a>
This shows every ns server that is online right now.
Servers with a <img src="http://src.psix.info/modified.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> icon after them, have plugins running that modify gameplay.
You can check which server dont run such plugins on this way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the Natural Selection Server Browser, created by one of our Developers, mE. NS v3.2 do not show on there yet, but should soon.
Yes, I did know that this argument could not be won through evidence, as no evidence exists that would substantiate such an outrageous claim as "Xmenu killed NS". But, the only reason I am asking for such evidence is because the above claim is constantly proclaimed as fact, and not opinion. Most people do not seem to understand the difference between the two, and if they do, then they seem to think that a statement made as a fact with no supporting evidence carries more weight than one made as an opinion without supporting evidence.
Saying "Xmenu killed NS" is going to make people ask "well, why did it kill NS?". Answering that with another opinion made out to be a fact is just going to continue the cycle, and nothing gets done.
Saying "I think Xmenu killed NS" is completely different. It shows that you are giving your opinion. You are still going to be questioned as to why you think that, but if you reply with another opinion, such as, "Well, judging from my own person experiences, I noticed a decline in the NS population the months following Xmenus wide spread use", you are much more likely to be considered as a meaningful voice on the forums, instead of someone who has nothing better to do than troll forums and start arguments with toothless facts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All we both have is our own experiences and own observations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Thats all we have, all of us. And with only that, all we have are our opinions.
The main reason for all the plugins in CO is because the game hasen't been updated to any big amount for a long while. People just got bored of the good old orginial stuff, so they added their own stuff (plugins). CO also encouraged the people from CS (the amazing people with super aiming skills) to come play CO, which is good, but hurt the game balance very much.
I can't blame the dev team because of the funding scarity, large amount of work needed done before the game etc. I cant blame us either because we get bored. Its just a chain reaction, the only solution i can think of is vs. 4.0 (doubt it would really happen) or better, NS2, but i dunno how well they would work.
:words:
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're arguing semantics. It should be a given that what we post here is our opinions unless we come out and explicitly claim it as a fact. I think a little bit of good faith on your part would go a long way in the future, because it results in silly dead end arguments like "Are we stating things as facts or opinions?". Not one single person in this entire thread has felt the need to back up his statements with statistics. In fact, only one person in this thread brought them at all, and he just threw them out there, for better or for worse. But is that necissarily even a bad thing? I don't feel like writing an annotated dissertation every time I post, and I also don't feel like being choosey with my words, because I feel they dillute how strongly I feel on the subject.
INTERNET PROTIP: Unless other people on the internet either (1) Explicitly state that it is a fact, (2) Back it up with statistics instead of mere logic, you should assume what people say are their opinions.