[/quote] <!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You shouldn't be waiting for minutes in one ambush point, then you're doing it wrong. Knowing where and when is also a skill - a strategical and tactical skill for all you fanatics out there. If you're waiting in the same spot for minutes then you'll get bored, and you're a useless team mate all at the same time. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> once motion tracking is available the only way you can ambush is to stay still for a long time. the alternative is to rush at marines and you know what happens when you do that as a skulk...
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't see how parasiting marines would be un-fun even though it might not be actual fun. What's the problem here? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because that's all you can do to a camping marine. if you want to kill him you have to rush at him and you know what happens when you do that
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Getting killed in a fraction of a second, and being able to kill in a fraction of a second. It adds to the tension and excitement of the game - I think it's fun. *shrug* <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but you can't kill in a fraction of a second. a marine only need to turn around and get line of sight and blast you in a fraction of a second. as a skulk you have to spend time to run up to him and chomp him x amount of times. all the while the marine is hopping around and shooting you
Being outskilled is never fun, but that is hardly the fault of the game design. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> but players of equal skill should have an equal chance to triumph in 1v1, no? this isn't what happens to skulk vs light marine. marine team kill scores are almost ALWAYS much higher than aliens on an equal skilled game until fades come out.
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As for RfK: dying is seldom fun, agreed. Don't see how this would be any different as something other than a skulk either though. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point is skulks can't do that they're supposed to do, zerg marines if there is nothing to gain from it. if you send x amount of skulks to attack a place and they die, more often than not then do NOT do more damage than the amount of res the marines get back from killing those skulks. remember then can get up to 3 res per dead skulk. i don't mind dying, but dying and giving resources to the other team? that's too much
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Not everyone is reswhoring for fade, and they shouldn't. I don't know what crappy servers you play on, but this is hardly any reason to dislike the SKULK for. Switch servers to one where people play roles depending on what their team needs. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i play mostly pubs and regardless of what server you play on the skulk as a unit is crappy vs a marine with a potent aim
As for the mid and late game, no not even a good skulk would keep a positive death ratio there, but that's because the role of the life forms change throughout the game. I don't see a problem with one life form not being meant to charge into marines and fight all the time, but instead go around and carry out scouting missions and looking for the right opportunity to go in and attack. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not about changing roles. it's about having a USEFUL role to play, and being able to make a difference. do you feel useful as a mid-game skulk, or do you feel powerless in the face of shotguns and mines and hmgs in the room next to your hive while sieges are going up? do you feel you can make a difference by hurling your weak body at marines without doing any significant damage before you turn into 1-3 resources for the other team?
A skulk deals more damage than a fade or a lerk at close distance, and the job of the alien team when fighting marines is to set up situations where skulks can get close and deal that damage. That is the challange and the fun in the mid and late game skulking. All I see is you people crying over not being able to rack up as high scores with your skulk as someone who's gone fade. Stop looking at the scoreboard and crying over your "poor" stats, and try to see the game for what it is. A skilled skulk doing his job could go 6-20 during a round and still have contributed more than his share. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you died 20 times as a skulk you have given the marines anywhere from 20-60 resources, average of 40 resources. do you think marines deserve that many resources solely from killing ONE skulk player? i know of many marine end games where our primary source of income was killing skulks because we have lost control of most of the map. because of the res from the skulk deaths we can afford to ninja-phase in a hive and siege it down. a skulk cannot put pressure on marines if they have to be conservative about dying. i'd rather marines get increased res flow from res towers and map control. skulks need to be able to pressure marines by zerging them non-stop. let the higher-lifeforms worry about dying. skulks should be meat thrown into the fray. the penalty of a long spawn queue and loss of ground should be enough
Take pride in what you accomplish. Lerks will spore and scout, gorges will build heal and distract and skulks will do damage where they can by being careful when and how they go in, and what they do when they're not confronting marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
except more often than not as a skulk you accomplish nothing more than filling marine coffers with res. and that sucks the big one
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 04:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't see how parasiting marines would be un-fun even though it might not be actual fun. What's the problem here? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think someone needs to make a "Ker-Ching!" replacement parasite hit sound!
I find parasiting fun in fact ;< Quite funny to see marines stress out when you chain parasite them without knowing where you are. Of course, getting pistol-whipped is annoying like hell, but toying with your food is fun.
Now with that being said, how about considering making the pistol a sidearm rather than a railgun? There should be almost no reason for a marine to take his pistol out rather than his rifle other than having no more ammo. But as it is, pistols can take out skulks before they react (the problem being with the pistols, not the skulks)
Oh, and no, I'm not a good player at all. I just have coordination problems or something, but no matter how long I've been playing this game, I manage to suck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> That doesn't mean I'm not helpful to the team though, the k:d ratio isn't the most important part of the game and I know I'm usually doing what's best for my team.
its funny you should mention pistal whiping, i frigan hate the pistal the damn thing is a fully automatic sniper rifle mounted to have no recoil what so ever. i have seen people put a full ten rounds in me with in 1 second.
I tryed scroll wheel i tryed clicking as fast as i can only thing i didnt try is macroing my nostromo, i have and many others have always said this yet no change has come along
thats cool tho i can some times dodge those ten rounds what gets me is the damn knife
me i personaly think aliens need to slow the heck down, running bunny hopeing you die more than you kill if you slow down ambush take out a wave move up a little take out another wave you will do quite a bit of damage a baiter para sulk, baiter heal bot gorgie you can cover quite a few junction
the thing that gets me is no one walks while cloaked these days *shrugs, every ones jsut in to much of a hurry to die as quike as possable
Drop the RFK income for killing a Skulk to 0 and raise the RFK income for killing higher lifeforms. So you'd be getting 0 for Skulks, 1 for Gorges, 2 for Lerks, 3 for Fades and 5 for Oni. Doing this would definately drop the mad res income for the marines when they get better weapons and/or spawncamp. (Suggested in the first post aswell.)
Secondly, make Skulks spawn faster than other lifeforms to put more concentration on keeping the pressure up and throwing waves after waves of Skulks at the oncoming enemy forces.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drop the RFK income for killing a Skulk to 0 and raise the RFK income for killing higher lifeforms. So you'd be getting 0 for Skulks, 1 for Gorges, 2 for Lerks, 3 for Fades and 5 for Oni. Doing this would definately drop the mad res income for the marines when they get better weapons and/or spawncamp. (Suggested in the first post aswell.)
Secondly, make Skulks spawn faster than other lifeforms to put more concentration on keeping the pressure up and throwing waves after waves of Skulks at the oncoming enemy forces.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Thread author- just because you don't enjoy skulking doesn't mean we don't. I like skulking- unless I'm forced to use (or fight against) cloak.
There are so many inaccurcies in your post that I'm not even going to bother breaking it down with a different point of view. Basically- skulks are lithe, agile melee fighters. They're the closest thing you'll get to finding an alien ninja. It's undoubtedly too hard to learn how to skulk properly (if you lack either brains or skill, or make a single mistake you're mince meat) but when you know how to do it is fun. Fragging shotgunners with a circle strafe when they only have time to fire once blindly is real satisfying.
Skulks and the commander are the best part of NS. The versatility of the skulk is amazingly fun to play and enjoy and the commander adds a great aspect to the game. Staying on topic though, if you are skulking against HA/HMG or motion and you don't have sufficient chambers or fades/lerks to back you up then your team is not working together and i can understand how you might like skulk is boring running into marines again and again, but quite simply, the most fun part of the game is the start for a lot of players because they can demolish multiples of the opposition with skulk or marine but late game is complex and requires a lot of team work. The better you become as skulk the more you'll realise how fun it really is. For the players that dont enjoy skulking that you say 'half the players are like' need to get themselves out of pubs and into clans and play the _real_ game and what it's balanced and designed for in 6v6 match-ups.
Either way, the whole point about the skulk is that they are the fast attack units, they are NOT a walking tank. Take this in the context of Starcraft. The Zergling will not cause any major headaches at the mid to end of a game if the Terran commander has anything above the normal level of grunts. A commander in C&C has nothing to fear from the lone rifle infantryman that is running at the base. Only if they go unchecked will they be a problem. Now, out in the field, a zergling against a grunt is around 1:1. A rifle infantryman against another is 1:1.
These aren't tanks, they're the <b>lightest form of alien there is in NS</b>. If you want to rack up kills, get yourself a Mammoth Tank, Hydralisk, or something similar. Don't walk around as a zergling, because the first thing you see has a good chance of killing you.
Christ, you must play NS nearly every single day. I on the other hand, have not played for <i>almost a year</i>, and I still know that the little things running about aren't going to stand up to much above base tech level.
Step teh hell back, and realise what you're posting. You're moaning about a unit that can't fight in a face off against a marine, when it's a common fact that the whole point about the skulk is that it's a fast attack unit, not suited to 1:1 faceup combat. If you want to skulk, then ambush. Even with motion tracking, you'll still kill more lone marines than what will kill you. If you want to run at them head on, then get something with more health, and more armour, then go eat some squads.
Until then, chew res, set up ambushes, and <b>parasite everything in sight</b>
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Let me say how I see a skulk should act, not in particular order.
* they should defend gorges, RTs and Hives * they should attack rines for (self)defense or if there are no other higher units on the job * they must chew up everything which isn't kharaa based, every RT, structure and building. (skulks get them down fastest, exeption for onos and hive2_gorge.
As you can see I nowhere say they should massively attack rines. Thats the higher lvls lifeforms job. Defense and destruction of rine material is the skulks best job. Especially cause higher lifeforms can kill structures less fast but kill alot faster.
Sure a skulk can attack, but try to do it out a practical note. Defense. (if you rush in there base and nail half there team I count it onder destroy rine structures as I asume you were gona do when base was empty)
So start defending, and chewing up stuff and let the searching for trouble be done by higher lifeforms. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The problem is that a single spawncamping marine can easily kill 4-5 Skulks while they're spawning. That averages out to 8-10 RFK in a very short amount of time. And this is what I've seen in EARLY games, a single marine with only LMG and Pistol. It's even worse when they get Shotguns and HMGs, not to mention jetpacks.
I've literally seen a single marine keep an entire Hive at bay by killing every skulk when they respawned, while his friends build up phasegates and sieges.
I am not saying that the Skulk should be tougher or do more damage, I'm merely saying that a single marine should not be able to kill enemies so fast that he gets so much RFK his commander can keep supplying him with health and ammunition infinitely. Hence my and the topic startes suggestion of Skulks giving no RFK and my suggestion of faster spawn rates for Skulks.
If you want Skulks to be able to defend a Hive, they NEED to be able to counter-attack very fast, multiple times if needed and not give any benefit to the attackers to further enhance their assault.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Now thats a good point on what I said. I see them as defensive units, but you say they can't even do that.
I have seen the situation you described before, usually the result of enevenly matched teams. A camping rine with comm support can hold a hive is he is good yes, and kharaa might have problems hitting that marine. (although not impossible).
I would not call it a counter to this, not having the whole team in the hive is far better, but I always found rfk to be bad anywayz. If you lost all RTs you deserve to lose. On this point I liked the old system better. NO rfk, res limits since we had lifeforms linked to hives. (so we had a general pool which got the acumulated res for immediate use by for example a gorge) Also that general respool was far better
We know that skulks are light ambush units; please stop telling us that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well ambushes isnt all about waiting somewhere expecting the marine not to see you while he walks past so you can chew his behind. It's about closing the distance without having to do it in sight on the marine, if he's not sure that you're there then all the better. Just dont expect to be able to sit in that corner you think is dark without being notices, that's naive.
Most good 'ambushes' are actually executed by the skulk going around the corner into the marine, rather than waiting for the marine to come through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1593277:date=Dec 30 2006, 06:33 PM:name=semipsychotic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(semipsychotic @ Dec 30 2006, 06:33 PM) [snapback]1593277[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We know that skulks are light ambush units; please stop telling us that. Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1593113:date=Dec 30 2006, 12:29 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Dec 30 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]1593113[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Hrmm, wonder what would happen if just Skulks were immune to Motion Tracking ;D <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulking is awesome fun, only reason i dont skulk all day long is because fading is even more fun. I dont know why you are complaining about mt sure it makes it easier for the marine but a good skulk still gets the kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1593277:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:33 PM:name=semipsychotic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(semipsychotic @ Dec 30 2006, 01:33 PM) [snapback]1593277[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We know that skulks are light ambush units; please stop telling us that. Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game. Node killing is a very important job.
<!--quoteo(post=1593257:date=Dec 30 2006, 12:03 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Dec 30 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]1593257[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The problem is that a single spawncamping marine can easily kill 4-5 Skulks while they're spawning. That averages out to 8-10 RFK in a very short amount of time. And this is what I've seen in EARLY games, a single marine with only LMG and Pistol. It's even worse when they get Shotguns and HMGs, not to mention jetpacks.
I've literally seen a single marine keep an entire Hive at bay by killing every skulk when they respawned, while his friends build up phasegates and sieges.
I am not saying that the Skulk should be tougher or do more damage, I'm merely saying that a single marine should not be able to kill enemies so fast that he gets so much RFK his commander can keep supplying him with health and ammunition infinitely. Hence my and the topic startes suggestion of Skulks giving no RFK and my suggestion of faster spawn rates for Skulks.
If you want Skulks to be able to defend a Hive, they NEED to be able to counter-attack very fast, multiple times if needed and not give any benefit to the attackers to further enhance their assault. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once.
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 06:52 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 06:52 PM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hive2 no longer gives skulks extra armor :O
It gives leap and second chambers tho <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
i agree with your statement. skulks and marines start off cose to equal but overtime the skulk becomes useless and has much less staying power then its equal marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1593228:date=Dec 30 2006, 05:52 AM:name=Garet_Jax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Garet_Jax @ Dec 30 2006, 05:52 AM) [snapback]1593228[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Thread author- just because you don't enjoy skulking doesn't mean we don't. I like skulking- unless I'm forced to use (or fight against) cloak.
There are so many inaccurcies in your post that I'm not even going to bother breaking it down with a different point of view. Basically- skulks are lithe, agile melee fighters. They're the closest thing you'll get to finding an alien ninja. It's undoubtedly too hard to learn how to skulk properly (if you lack either brains or skill, or make a single mistake you're mince meat) but when you know how to do it is fun. Fragging shotgunners with a circle strafe when they only have time to fire once blindly is real satisfying. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you feel you've accomplished a net gain for your team by killing said shotgunners? do you make the marines LOSE enough shotguns each round to make up for all the res you're giving them in return? if another LMG picks up the dropped shotgun it doesn't count because it is a net gain for them. they keep the shotty and get res for killing you. hence why skulking sucks. you can't eve hope to break even for your effort because you die too friggin easily and dying gives marine resources.
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you kidding me? MT can be researched immedately at game start with the marines STARTING RESOURCES. it can be available in less than 1 minute. once it is up, it nullifies the skulk completely as an offensive force. if you cannot be on the offensive effectively you will lose. you cannot make gains on enemy held territory and you cannot regain lost territory, you just shrivel up and die and that's not fun (slippery slope)
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> when are skulks NOT weaker than marines? they are weaker at the beginning and throughout the game as marines get yummy upgrades. the only time i would argue that skulks are stronger are when they havfe 3 upgrades and can xeno. other than that, light marines own skulks
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Node killing is a very important job. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do?
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really? how about sloppy base defence for marines huh? how many times have you wandered into empty marine start and chew on a few buldings? the next spawning marine will kill you easily and if he doesn't, the next one surely will blast you with your low hp. comm can come out and kill you, or someone will phase back or they can beacon. a small number of skulks in marine start usually cannot do jack squat. 1 marine in the hive can effectively hold off the entire team and keep them in the spawn queue. is this not imbalanced? 1 marine guarding marine start will negate any skulk rush you care to assemble. how many skulks does it take to prevent a spawn camper? you need to have at least 2 skulks at each entrance way to the hive. more if they are multiple incoming marines.
why must aliens allocate such huge numbers to defend their hive but marines can leave it empty and go on the offensive?
and keeping marines out of the hive? if marines want in your hive, they can keep camping long halls until they get there. with MT up, this is not hard at all. as a skulk there is little you can do to a determined marine force encroaching on the hive. everytime a skulk falls he pays for a medpack. a good comm can keep spawn campers alive near indefinately.
<!--quoteo(post=1593312:date=Dec 30 2006, 04:25 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Dec 30 2006, 04:25 PM) [snapback]1593312[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i agree with your statement. skulks and marines start off cose to equal but overtime the skulk <strike>becomes useless and</strike> has much less staying power then its equal marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It takes at least 3 skulks to take out 1 good marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> if you're smart you can take 3 decent marines easly tbh.
Killing a shotgunner is quite useful, not only because he loses a shotgun, but you're gaining map control. Now I know for sure that a free skulk is not always going to come out victorious over a shotgunner, it's not without a price. Now considering that you're not half bad, you're still most probably going to hit him. That means a medpack, and that's where your RFK comes into play. I've rarely seen shotguns taking down hordes of skulks without a scratch himself, that is to say, unless the skulks come down one by one down a corridor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you kidding me? MT can be researched immedately at game start with the marines STARTING RESOURCES. it can be available in less than 1 minute. once it is up, it nullifies the skulk completely as an offensive force. if you cannot be on the offensive effectively you will lose. you cannot make gains on enemy held territory and you cannot regain lost territory, you just shrivel up and die and that's not fun (slippery slope) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At what cost? Meanwhile you're barely taking any ground. I'm not saying this isn't an effective tactic, but it's far from being flawless, which is why you don't see it every game. In fact, I'm quite sure that most games I've seen with MT first have ended with alien victory, because the first moments of the game are alien-dominated.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this comes with the assumption marines have infinite res and time I suppose, because elec is a lengthy and expensive process. I take it you play on large servers, which would make sense, because the larger the game, the larger the marine bias. On a decent-sized server, no commander is going to risk electrifying RT's early in the game because he's going to risk having a second hive up and gorges bilebombing the elec RT's before he actually compensates for the lost resources (compared to a strategy where marines take more res nodes without elec)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how many times have you wandered into empty marine start and chew on a few buldings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have no idea, I've downed advanced armories many more times than I've been successful in reaching the hive and spawnkilling. Skulks are very mobile and they should be able to reach marine start without too many problems. One skulk can take down an advanced armory without too much difficulty, and with two it's quite easy if the marines have a moment of inattention. Your death (and the rfk going along with it) is going to be very insignificant compared to the loss of time you've given your team by destroying access to advanced weaponry. And if you force them to beacon, that means you gain control on the rest of the map because they're all back to base. At the very worst, you've just given your team the opportunity to overwhelm an essential phase gate, and if they try to phase back, it's usualy free RFK for your teammates
<!--quoteo(post=1593314:date=Dec 30 2006, 04:31 PM:name=kill4thrills)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kill4thrills @ Dec 30 2006, 04:31 PM) [snapback]1593314[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> do you feel you've accomplished a net gain for your team by killing said shotgunners? do you make the marines LOSE enough shotguns each round to make up for all the res you're giving them in return? if another LMG picks up the dropped shotgun it doesn't count because it is a net gain for them. they keep the shotty and get res for killing you. hence why skulking sucks. you can't eve hope to break even for your effort because you die too friggin easily and dying gives marine resources. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> res means a lot but not everything. by killing that shotgunner youve weakened their push on your rt's by one marine. it matters.
i agree with you on mt, i think its a ridiculous upgrade that should be removed from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when are skulks NOT weaker than marines? they are weaker at the beginning and throughout the game as marines get yummy upgrades. the only time i would argue that skulks are stronger are when they havfe 3 upgrades and can xeno. other than that, light marines own skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> read my first post. or are you afraid to get better at ns? whats there to be afraid of?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> elec is stupid and pointless and should be removed from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 marine in the hive can effectively hold off the entire team and keep them in the spawn queue. is this not imbalanced? 1 marine guarding marine start will negate any skulk rush you care to assemble. how many skulks does it take to prevent a spawn camper? you need to have at least 2 skulks at each entrance way to the hive. more if they are multiple incoming marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> just get a gorge to spit or a lerk, problem solved
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why must aliens allocate such huge numbers to defend their hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they dont. scout ahead of the hive. parasite marines. here, let me emphasize that one for you: <b><i><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF6600--><span style="color:#FF6600"><!--/coloro--><u>PARASITE</b></i></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines can leave it empty and go on the offensive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they cant, lol
<!--quoteo(post=1593337:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:35 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 30 2006, 10:35 PM) [snapback]1593337[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> they dont. scout ahead of the hive. parasite marines. here, let me emphasize that one for you: <b><i><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF6600--><span style="color:#FF6600"><!--/coloro--><u>PARASITE</b></i></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't just stop there. Any good skulk will be parasiting <b>everything in sight, multiple times</b>. You can flick off a quick parasite, it being a hitscan weapon, and be back behind that corner before the marine even knows you're there. All they hear is the dreaded thud when you get 'sited.
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 12:52 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game. Node killing is a very important job. Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should a 2 hive skulk be any weaker than a marine at that time?? Both units are free.
If the super-skilled marine can spawn camp the entire hive himself, then I'm sure he has no problems getting in.
I don't think the problem neccessarily lies with the skulks, but with marines. A skilled marine is extremely difficult to kill in the early game... and mid game... and late game (esp. if they get a jetpack). The marines have almost infinite skill potential but skulks are very limited in what they can do.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You shouldn't be waiting for minutes in one ambush point, then you're doing it wrong. Knowing where and when is also a skill - a strategical and tactical skill for all you fanatics out there. If you're waiting in the same spot for minutes then you'll get bored, and you're a useless team mate all at the same time.
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once motion tracking is available the only way you can ambush is to stay still for a long time. the alternative is to rush at marines and you know what happens when you do that as a skulk...
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I don't see how parasiting marines would be un-fun even though it might not be actual fun. What's the problem here?
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because that's all you can do to a camping marine. if you want to kill him you have to rush at him and you know what happens when you do that
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Getting killed in a fraction of a second, and being able to kill in a fraction of a second. It adds to the tension and excitement of the game - I think it's fun. *shrug*
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but you can't kill in a fraction of a second. a marine only need to turn around and get line of sight and blast you in a fraction of a second. as a skulk you have to spend time to run up to him and chomp him x amount of times. all the while the marine is hopping around and shooting you
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Being outskilled is never fun, but that is hardly the fault of the game design.
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but players of equal skill should have an equal chance to triumph in 1v1, no? this isn't what happens to skulk vs light marine. marine team kill scores are almost ALWAYS much higher than aliens on an equal skilled game until fades come out.
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
As for RfK: dying is seldom fun, agreed. Don't see how this would be any different as something other than a skulk either though.
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the point is skulks can't do that they're supposed to do, zerg marines if there is nothing to gain from it. if you send x amount of skulks to attack a place and they die, more often than not then do NOT do more damage than the amount of res the marines get back from killing those skulks. remember then can get up to 3 res per dead skulk. i don't mind dying, but dying and giving resources to the other team? that's too much
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Not everyone is reswhoring for fade, and they shouldn't. I don't know what crappy servers you play on, but this is hardly any reason to dislike the SKULK for. Switch servers to one where people play roles depending on what their team needs.
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i play mostly pubs and regardless of what server you play on the skulk as a unit is crappy vs a marine with a potent aim
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
--
As for the mid and late game, no not even a good skulk would keep a positive death ratio there, but that's because the role of the life forms change throughout the game. I don't see a problem with one life form not being meant to charge into marines and fight all the time, but instead go around and carry out scouting missions and looking for the right opportunity to go in and attack.
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it's not about changing roles. it's about having a USEFUL role to play, and being able to make a difference. do you feel useful as a mid-game skulk, or do you feel powerless in the face of shotguns and mines and hmgs in the room next to your hive while sieges are going up? do you feel you can make a difference by hurling your weak body at marines without doing any significant damage before you turn into 1-3 resources for the other team?
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
A skulk deals more damage than a fade or a lerk at close distance, and the job of the alien team when fighting marines is to set up situations where skulks can get close and deal that damage. That is the challange and the fun in the mid and late game skulking.
All I see is you people crying over not being able to rack up as high scores with your skulk as someone who's gone fade. Stop looking at the scoreboard and crying over your "poor" stats, and try to see the game for what it is. A skilled skulk doing his job could go 6-20 during a round and still have contributed more than his share.
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if you died 20 times as a skulk you have given the marines anywhere from 20-60 resources, average of 40 resources. do you think marines deserve that many resources solely from killing ONE skulk player? i know of many marine end games where our primary source of income was killing skulks because we have lost control of most of the map. because of the res from the skulk deaths we can afford to ninja-phase in a hive and siege it down. a skulk cannot put pressure on marines if they have to be conservative about dying. i'd rather marines get increased res flow from res towers and map control. skulks need to be able to pressure marines by zerging them non-stop. let the higher-lifeforms worry about dying. skulks should be meat thrown into the fray. the penalty of a long spawn queue and loss of ground should be enough
<!--quoteo(post=1593193:date=Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 30 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1593193[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Take pride in what you accomplish. Lerks will spore and scout, gorges will build heal and distract and skulks will do damage where they can by being careful when and how they go in, and what they do when they're not confronting marines.
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except more often than not as a skulk you accomplish nothing more than filling marine coffers with res. and that sucks the big one
I don't see how parasiting marines would be un-fun even though it might not be actual fun. What's the problem here?
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I think someone needs to make a "Ker-Ching!" replacement parasite hit sound!
Now with that being said, how about considering making the pistol a sidearm rather than a railgun? There should be almost no reason for a marine to take his pistol out rather than his rifle other than having no more ammo. But as it is, pistols can take out skulks before they react (the problem being with the pistols, not the skulks)
Oh, and no, I'm not a good player at all. I just have coordination problems or something, but no matter how long I've been playing this game, I manage to suck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> That doesn't mean I'm not helpful to the team though, the k:d ratio isn't the most important part of the game and I know I'm usually doing what's best for my team.
I tryed scroll wheel i tryed clicking as fast as i can only thing i didnt try is macroing my nostromo, i have and many others have always said this yet no change has come along
thats cool tho i can some times dodge those ten rounds what gets me is the damn knife
me i personaly think aliens need to slow the heck down, running bunny hopeing you die more than you kill if you slow down ambush take out a wave move up a little take out another wave you will do quite a bit of damage a baiter para sulk, baiter heal bot gorgie you can cover quite a few junction
the thing that gets me is no one walks while cloaked these days *shrugs, every ones jsut in to much of a hurry to die as quike as possable
Drop the RFK income for killing a Skulk to 0 and raise the RFK income for killing higher lifeforms. So you'd be getting 0 for Skulks, 1 for Gorges, 2 for Lerks, 3 for Fades and 5 for Oni. Doing this would definately drop the mad res income for the marines when they get better weapons and/or spawncamp. (Suggested in the first post aswell.)
Secondly, make Skulks spawn faster than other lifeforms to put more concentration on keeping the pressure up and throwing waves after waves of Skulks at the oncoming enemy forces.
Secondly, make Skulks spawn faster than other lifeforms to put more concentration on keeping the pressure up and throwing waves after waves of Skulks at the oncoming enemy forces.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
There are so many inaccurcies in your post that I'm not even going to bother breaking it down with a different point of view. Basically- skulks are lithe, agile melee fighters. They're the closest thing you'll get to finding an alien ninja. It's undoubtedly too hard to learn how to skulk properly (if you lack either brains or skill, or make a single mistake you're mince meat) but when you know how to do it is fun. Fragging shotgunners with a circle strafe when they only have time to fire once blindly is real satisfying.
Either way, the whole point about the skulk is that they are the fast attack units, they are NOT a walking tank. Take this in the context of Starcraft. The Zergling will not cause any major headaches at the mid to end of a game if the Terran commander has anything above the normal level of grunts. A commander in C&C has nothing to fear from the lone rifle infantryman that is running at the base. Only if they go unchecked will they be a problem. Now, out in the field, a zergling against a grunt is around 1:1. A rifle infantryman against another is 1:1.
These aren't tanks, they're the <b>lightest form of alien there is in NS</b>. If you want to rack up kills, get yourself a Mammoth Tank, Hydralisk, or something similar. Don't walk around as a zergling, because the first thing you see has a good chance of killing you.
Christ, you must play NS nearly every single day. I on the other hand, have not played for <i>almost a year</i>, and I still know that the little things running about aren't going to stand up to much above base tech level.
Step teh hell back, and realise what you're posting. You're moaning about a unit that can't fight in a face off against a marine, when it's a common fact that the whole point about the skulk is that it's a fast attack unit, not suited to 1:1 faceup combat. If you want to skulk, then ambush. Even with motion tracking, you'll still kill more lone marines than what will kill you. If you want to run at them head on, then get something with more health, and more armour, then go eat some squads.
Until then, chew res, set up ambushes, and <b>parasite everything in sight</b>
* they should defend gorges, RTs and Hives
* they should attack rines for (self)defense or if there are no other higher units on the job
* they must chew up everything which isn't kharaa based, every RT, structure and building. (skulks get them down fastest, exeption for onos and hive2_gorge.
As you can see I nowhere say they should massively attack rines. Thats the higher lvls lifeforms job. Defense and destruction of rine material is the skulks best job. Especially cause higher lifeforms can kill structures less fast but kill alot faster.
Sure a skulk can attack, but try to do it out a practical note. Defense. (if you rush in there base and nail half there team I count it onder destroy rine structures as I asume you were gona do when base was empty)
So start defending, and chewing up stuff and let the searching for trouble be done by higher lifeforms. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I've literally seen a single marine keep an entire Hive at bay by killing every skulk when they respawned, while his friends build up phasegates and sieges.
I am not saying that the Skulk should be tougher or do more damage, I'm merely saying that a single marine should not be able to kill enemies so fast that he gets so much RFK his commander can keep supplying him with health and ammunition infinitely. Hence my and the topic startes suggestion of Skulks giving no RFK and my suggestion of faster spawn rates for Skulks.
If you want Skulks to be able to defend a Hive, they NEED to be able to counter-attack very fast, multiple times if needed and not give any benefit to the attackers to further enhance their assault.
I have seen the situation you described before, usually the result of enevenly matched teams. A camping rine with comm support can hold a hive is he is good yes, and kharaa might have problems hitting that marine. (although not impossible).
I would not call it a counter to this, not having the whole team in the hive is far better, but I always found rfk to be bad anywayz. If you lost all RTs you deserve to lose. On this point I liked the old system better. NO rfk, res limits since we had lifeforms linked to hives. (so we had a general pool which got the acumulated res for immediate use by for example a gorge) Also that general respool was far better
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well ambushes isnt all about waiting somewhere expecting the marine not to see you while he walks past so you can chew his behind. It's about closing the distance without having to do it in sight on the marine, if he's not sure that you're there then all the better. Just dont expect to be able to sit in that corner you think is dark without being notices, that's naive.
Most good 'ambushes' are actually executed by the skulk going around the corner into the marine, rather than waiting for the marine to come through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun.
We know that skulks are light ambush units; please stop telling us that.
Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun.
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<!--quoteo(post=1593113:date=Dec 30 2006, 12:29 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Dec 30 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]1593113[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Hrmm, wonder what would happen if just Skulks were immune to Motion Tracking ;D
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
I dont know why you are complaining about mt sure it makes it easier for the marine but a good skulk still gets the kill.
We know that skulks are light ambush units; please stop telling us that.
Motion tracking destroys that. If I see a blue blip approaching a doorway from the side, I can turn my safety off, turn the corner, and put twenty rounds into the alien before its pointed claws leave the floor. Even if I can't, there's always another armor-clad soldier behind me, ready to clean up my mess.
Skulks have little to do but parasite and chew on resources by the time motion tracking rolls around. Even then, sharpshooting marines can nail parasite skulks, and that's no fun.
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You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game. Node killing is a very important job.
<!--quoteo(post=1593257:date=Dec 30 2006, 12:03 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Dec 30 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]1593257[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The problem is that a single spawncamping marine can easily kill 4-5 Skulks while they're spawning. That averages out to 8-10 RFK in a very short amount of time. And this is what I've seen in EARLY games, a single marine with only LMG and Pistol. It's even worse when they get Shotguns and HMGs, not to mention jetpacks.
I've literally seen a single marine keep an entire Hive at bay by killing every skulk when they respawned, while his friends build up phasegates and sieges.
I am not saying that the Skulk should be tougher or do more damage, I'm merely saying that a single marine should not be able to kill enemies so fast that he gets so much RFK his commander can keep supplying him with health and ammunition infinitely. Hence my and the topic startes suggestion of Skulks giving no RFK and my suggestion of faster spawn rates for Skulks.
If you want Skulks to be able to defend a Hive, they NEED to be able to counter-attack very fast, multiple times if needed and not give any benefit to the attackers to further enhance their assault.
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Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once.
You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2.
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Hive2 no longer gives skulks extra armor :O
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Sherpa Warps<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->aA warps<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Thread author- just because you don't enjoy skulking doesn't mean we don't. I like skulking- unless I'm forced to use (or fight against) cloak.
There are so many inaccurcies in your post that I'm not even going to bother breaking it down with a different point of view. Basically- skulks are lithe, agile melee fighters. They're the closest thing you'll get to finding an alien ninja. It's undoubtedly too hard to learn how to skulk properly (if you lack either brains or skill, or make a single mistake you're mince meat) but when you know how to do it is fun. Fragging shotgunners with a circle strafe when they only have time to fire once blindly is real satisfying.
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do you feel you've accomplished a net gain for your team by killing said shotgunners? do you make the marines LOSE enough shotguns each round to make up for all the res you're giving them in return? if another LMG picks up the dropped shotgun it doesn't count because it is a net gain for them. they keep the shotty and get res for killing you. hence why skulking sucks. you can't eve hope to break even for your effort because you die too friggin easily and dying gives marine resources.
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2.
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are you kidding me? MT can be researched immedately at game start with the marines STARTING RESOURCES. it can be available in less than 1 minute. once it is up, it nullifies the skulk completely as an offensive force. if you cannot be on the offensive effectively you will lose. you cannot make gains on enemy held territory and you cannot regain lost territory, you just shrivel up and die and that's not fun (slippery slope)
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game.
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when are skulks NOT weaker than marines? they are weaker at the beginning and throughout the game as marines get yummy upgrades. the only time i would argue that skulks are stronger are when they havfe 3 upgrades and can xeno. other than that, light marines own skulks
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Node killing is a very important job.
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yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do?
<!--quoteo(post=1593283:date=Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 30 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]1593283[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once.
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really? how about sloppy base defence for marines huh? how many times have you wandered into empty marine start and chew on a few buldings? the next spawning marine will kill you easily and if he doesn't, the next one surely will blast you with your low hp. comm can come out and kill you, or someone will phase back or they can beacon. a small number of skulks in marine start usually cannot do jack squat. 1 marine in the hive can effectively hold off the entire team and keep them in the spawn queue. is this not imbalanced? 1 marine guarding marine start will negate any skulk rush you care to assemble. how many skulks does it take to prevent a spawn camper? you need to have at least 2 skulks at each entrance way to the hive. more if they are multiple incoming marines.
why must aliens allocate such huge numbers to defend their hive but marines can leave it empty and go on the offensive?
and keeping marines out of the hive? if marines want in your hive, they can keep camping long halls until they get there. with MT up, this is not hard at all. as a skulk there is little you can do to a determined marine force encroaching on the hive. everytime a skulk falls he pays for a medpack. a good comm can keep spawn campers alive near indefinately.
i agree with your statement. skulks and marines start off cose to equal but overtime the skulk <strike>becomes useless and</strike> has much less staying power then its equal marine.
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there is something wrong with that because...?
if you're smart you can take 3 decent marines easly tbh.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you kidding me? MT can be researched immedately at game start with the marines STARTING RESOURCES. it can be available in less than 1 minute. once it is up, it nullifies the skulk completely as an offensive force. if you cannot be on the offensive effectively you will lose. you cannot make gains on enemy held territory and you cannot regain lost territory, you just shrivel up and die and that's not fun (slippery slope)
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At what cost? Meanwhile you're barely taking any ground. I'm not saying this isn't an effective tactic, but it's far from being flawless, which is why you don't see it every game. In fact, I'm quite sure that most games I've seen with MT first have ended with alien victory, because the first moments of the game are alien-dominated.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do?
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Well this comes with the assumption marines have infinite res and time I suppose, because elec is a lengthy and expensive process. I take it you play on large servers, which would make sense, because the larger the game, the larger the marine bias. On a decent-sized server, no commander is going to risk electrifying RT's early in the game because he's going to risk having a second hive up and gorges bilebombing the elec RT's before he actually compensates for the lost resources (compared to a strategy where marines take more res nodes without elec)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how many times have you wandered into empty marine start and chew on a few buldings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have no idea, I've downed advanced armories many more times than I've been successful in reaching the hive and spawnkilling. Skulks are very mobile and they should be able to reach marine start without too many problems. One skulk can take down an advanced armory without too much difficulty, and with two it's quite easy if the marines have a moment of inattention. Your death (and the rfk going along with it) is going to be very insignificant compared to the loss of time you've given your team by destroying access to advanced weaponry.
And if you force them to beacon, that means you gain control on the rest of the map because they're all back to base. At the very worst, you've just given your team the opportunity to overwhelm an essential phase gate, and if they try to phase back, it's usualy free RFK for your teammates
do you feel you've accomplished a net gain for your team by killing said shotgunners? do you make the marines LOSE enough shotguns each round to make up for all the res you're giving them in return? if another LMG picks up the dropped shotgun it doesn't count because it is a net gain for them. they keep the shotty and get res for killing you. hence why skulking sucks. you can't eve hope to break even for your effort because you die too friggin easily and dying gives marine resources. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
res means a lot but not everything. by killing that shotgunner youve weakened their push on your rt's by one marine. it matters.
i agree with you on mt, i think its a ridiculous upgrade that should be removed from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when are skulks NOT weaker than marines? they are weaker at the beginning and throughout the game as marines get yummy upgrades. the only time i would argue that skulks are stronger are when they havfe 3 upgrades and can xeno. other than that, light marines own skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read my first post. or are you afraid to get better at ns? whats there to be afraid of?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, and the marines have something to prevent skulks from doing this too. it's called electrification. marines have a counter to all things skulks do. what's a little skulk to do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
elec is stupid and pointless and should be removed from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 marine in the hive can effectively hold off the entire team and keep them in the spawn queue. is this not imbalanced? 1 marine guarding marine start will negate any skulk rush you care to assemble. how many skulks does it take to prevent a spawn camper? you need to have at least 2 skulks at each entrance way to the hive. more if they are multiple incoming marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just get a gorge to spit or a lerk, problem solved
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why must aliens allocate such huge numbers to defend their hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they dont. scout ahead of the hive. parasite marines. here, let me emphasize that one for you:
<b><i><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF6600--><span style="color:#FF6600"><!--/coloro--><u>PARASITE</b></i></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines can leave it empty and go on the offensive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they cant, lol
they dont. scout ahead of the hive. parasite marines. here, let me emphasize that one for you:
<b><i><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF6600--><span style="color:#FF6600"><!--/coloro--><u>PARASITE</b></i></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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And you don't just stop there. Any good skulk will be parasiting <b>everything in sight, multiple times</b>.
You can flick off a quick parasite, it being a hitscan weapon, and be back behind that corner before the marine even knows you're there. All they hear is the dreaded thud when you get 'sited.
Chew res, 'site marines, buildings, <b>everything</b>
You're right, MT counters hive 1 skulks. It's a midgame upgrade. You should have a Fade by the time it's researched, if not hive 2. Skulks are supposed to be inherently weaker than marines at this point in the game. Node killing is a very important job.
Spawncamping is a result of sloppy alien defense. The solution is to not let marines into your hive and/or not to let your entire team die at once.
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Why should a 2 hive skulk be any weaker than a marine at that time?? Both units are free.
If the super-skilled marine can spawn camp the entire hive himself, then I'm sure he has no problems getting in.
I don't think the problem neccessarily lies with the skulks, but with marines. A skilled marine is extremely difficult to kill in the early game... and mid game... and late game (esp. if they get a jetpack). The marines have almost infinite skill potential but skulks are very limited in what they can do.