tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I'm not voting, because I do not know what I prefer. I've played amazing games in all those settings (Ultima Underworld, Darklands, Fallout, System Shock 2, etc.) and I can't help thinking back on those games when I try to compare the settings.
That being said; there is something charming about big swords and sorcery, but it's also very easy to become a cliché that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1595311:date=Jan 6 2007, 03:30 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jan 6 2007, 03:30 AM) [snapback]1595311[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "I grow tired of shouting battle cries when fighting this mage. Boo will finish his eyeballs once and for all, so he does not rise again! Evil, meet my sword! SWORD, MEET EVIL!"
nuff said <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!!"
Anyhoo...
Fantasy has to be it for me. Not just the "I cast level 99 Ultima on j00 as$ and burn all of teh planet away with ya!!!!1oneoneone" magic part, but because there's much more (for the want of a better word) "freedom" in the fantasy setting. Not everything has to be rational, because "you can explain things away with magic", which doesn't always work. Remember, FF7 was what you could call more of a fantasy setting, but it had technological explainations for many things, and magical for others. And the rest of them were mainly down to a guy with a 10ft long sword...
I'd hate to see a historical RPG, mainly because your storyline is pre-determined to many points, unless you use an alternative history, like the bad guys won WW2, and now everyone speaks German, with a small resistance movement fighting the system (yawn...). Use purely historical markers, and you're screwed. Use alternative history ones, and you're clichéd...
The reason being that I don't really have a favourite of the listed genres, for me it's more important what you do with the genres. Let me see if I can explain this.. I like a middleground between our regular world (not really mattering when it is, though, I guess Fantasy or the middleages is about as far back in history for me to keep it interesting, but that could just be because RPGs usually don't take material from THAT far back..) and fantasy/high tech.
So in essence.. Low Fantasy or "low high tech" (hows THAT for an oxymoron <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And especially gritty and dark worlds, Warhammer for instance, or Shadowrun - or postapocalyptic :S, I suppose in a way it gives more character to the world - as opposed to some high fantasy worlds that are "perfect" in a way, and seems superficial, D&D comes to my mind (but it really depends what the DM does with it :S), but somehow magical items and whatnot everywhere just seems wrong to me :X it doesn't add up so to speak.
<!--quoteo(post=1595381:date=Jan 6 2007, 02:35 AM:name=Pulse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pulse @ Jan 6 2007, 02:35 AM) [snapback]1595381[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If Troika were to reform tomorrow and start work on a new RPG, would you rather it be set in Forgotten Realms or Planescape? That is the question posed by the OP. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like tankefugl and DHP both said, I wouldn't care. The setting is just another aspect of what the game designer uses when they make their game. A company like Troika is going to turn out something good no matter where it's set, which is why I think it's silly to have preferences for one setting or another when what you really have a preference for is a good game. I can understand people who enjoy playing more in a postapocalyptic world or a fantasy world, but I think if you're designing for the majority of people, what they want is a good RPG, which they will play regardless of the setting.
Well, another way of putting it I guess, is that I want a fleshed out setting, and a setting with character with as few cliche's as possible (except for those RPGs that go on these in an attempt to be funny I guess <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And to me, high fantasy and the like is just cliche'd and superficial as I'd already said :X. So low fantasy/sci-fi and polish cuts it for me.. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
However, on the computer, there's Action RPGs and J-RPGs, there I don't really mind the cliche's as much, probably because I focus more on the game mechanics, and the "joy" of levelling up and becoming stronger. However, that's because it's what I've come to expect from the action RPG and J-RPGs.
For "actual" RPGs (yeah J-RPGs are this as well, but a seperate genre in a way..), whether it be on the PC or Pen and Paper I prefer what I've mentioned... Which is the reason I don't really like NWN or NWN2 :X, well haven't tried NWN2, but it hasn't caught my interest <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Then again D&D is also the incarnation of cliche in a way :X
Thank you to pulse for pointing out Thief 3 some posts back! The setting, artwork, atmosphere and attitude of thief games rocks so excellently (forgiving the zombies of the first game) that I'm sure it could be made into an awesome film (thinking from hell, that sorta comic book feel).
okay now go back to your mass debating. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1595525:date=Jan 6 2007, 11:25 AM:name=Dirty_Harry_Potter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dirty_Harry_Potter @ Jan 6 2007, 11:25 AM) [snapback]1595525[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, another way of putting it I guess, is that I want a fleshed out setting, and a setting with character with as few cliche's as possible (except for those RPGs that go on these in an attempt to be funny I guess <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And to me, high fantasy and the like is just cliche'd and superficial as I'd already said :X. So low fantasy/sci-fi and polish cuts it for me.. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
However, on the computer, there's Action RPGs and J-RPGs, there I don't really mind the cliche's as much, probably because I focus more on the game mechanics, and the "joy" of levelling up and becoming stronger. However, that's because it's what I've come to expect from the action RPG and J-RPGs.
For "actual" RPGs (yeah J-RPGs are this as well, but a seperate genre in a way..), whether it be on the PC or Pen and Paper I prefer what I've mentioned... Which is the reason I don't really like NWN or NWN2 :X, well haven't tried NWN2, but it hasn't caught my interest <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Then again D&D is also the incarnation of cliche in a way :X <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NWN2 is much more of a game than NWN was. NWN was more of a toolset with a crappy campaign; NWN2's campaign is very well written.
<!--quoteo(post=1595585:date=Jan 6 2007, 09:53 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jan 6 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]1595585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NWN2 is much more of a game than NWN was. NWN was more of a toolset with a crappy campaign; NWN2's campaign is very well written. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the same with any new engine or toolset. The first game the property developer makes is always a showcase game. Neverwinter Nights was Bioware's way of showing of the Aurora toolset, same as Half-Life 2 is (in my opinion) a showcase of the Source engine.
<b>Non-Linear (Oblivion, MMORPGs):</b> The game is has many alternate storylines besides the main one, or it has no main storyline at all. Typically, there is no definite "end" to the game. High replay values. <b>Linear (Final Fantasy, Fallout):</b> The game contains a definite storyline, with a beginning and an end. It might have some side stories. After the game is beaten, there exists no replay value. <b>Game Mechanics:</b> Battle System, Character Growth, Location Transition, Player Perspective...etc.
<i>A good combination of RPG Archtype along Game Mechanics should create a good RPG, regardless of setting. Setting should not be determining your RPG Archtype or Game Mechanics, because that would essentially mean you are rehashing someone else's idea. If you chose to base your Game Mechanics on the Fantasy, that makes no sense because setting does not determine Game Mechanics. If you DID manage to do this, than it basically meant you derived your Mechanics off someone else's already established Fantasy game.</i>
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Take a look at the difference between Oblivion, Fallout Tactics, and Final Fantasy:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Now, I want you to imagine what would happen if you took the game titles, and switched them around. How would Oblivion look, still retaining all of it's Lore, Setting, and Background, if it was using Final Fantasy VII Mechanics? What about Fallout: Tactics using Oblivion Mechanics? (Tactics is unique in which it combines RPG and RTS, so it has a small exception. Use Fallout 1 or 2 instead.) What do you guys think about this? <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Would a Fallout title STILL be as good if it's post-apocalyptic setting and lore were to be used with Final Fantasy VII or Oblivion Game Mechanics? Personally, I say it would!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<i>NOTICE: "Endurance Based Health System" or "Dwarven Tech Tree" do not count as Game Mechanics. These are merely subsets of "Combat System" and Character Development."</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1595586:date=Jan 6 2007, 01:59 PM:name=Lt_Patch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Patch @ Jan 6 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]1595586[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's the same with any new engine or toolset. The first game the property developer makes is always a showcase game. Neverwinter Nights was Bioware's way of showing of the Aurora toolset, same as Half-Life 2 is (in my opinion) a showcase of the Source engine. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that NWN2 uses an entirely different engine and toolset, which is new. So yeah.
Woot, Crotalus agrees with me too! That makes 4 v 1, Patchy boy.
Keep up the good discussion <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. This will help me as I work on my own design.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited January 2007
If I had to choose, I'd most probably pick fantasy as Heroes of Might&Magic and TES are my favourite roleplaying games.
Also, any praise or unsactioned measuring of Oblivion's worth will result in a very angry Pelinal eating out your neckvein. Seriously, I have yet to grasp how this game could suck that much, yes recieve so much praise. I'll chalk it up to shiny graphics. Fortunately, the faction-expanding plugin KoTN for Oblivion is pure awesome. Though.
Why is Oblivion so good? It's probably because of it's open ended nature that allows no restrictions to what players choose to do, unlike mainstream linear RPGs. One of the biggest likability factors though, is the computer version's construction set. It allows unlimited creation of weapons, items, clothing, armor, quests, campaigns, and even total game conversions. This was what made Morrowind popular, and the same thing applies with Oblivion. Also, alot of the Oblivion fanboys just like the Elderscrolls Lore, too.
If you have Oblivion for 360, then I can see why it is boring. There is no new content besides the ones Bethesda releases. However, for the computer, you can practically play new quests and campaigns forever...atleast until we get Elder Scrolls 5.
I feel Bethesda was trying to simulate a fantasy lifestyle as accurately as possible, instead of molding gameplay around a strong storyline. That is why the game seems rather boring at times, because there is no strong central story to cling to. That being said, to enjoy this game, you need to pretend like you are actually living in the game. This means reading a few books before going to bed for the night, eating some breakfast in the morning, go foraging in the wilderness for wild vegetation, screw around in your laboratory for the afternoon, and patrol the forest in search of a ruin to plunder for the evening. This game is not for everyone though, it wasn't really designed for someone to go "power-leveling" and getting "1337 lewt."
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Are there actually any historical RPGs? I would like an example of a few if anyone knows any good ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was an alternative history WW2 RPG a while ago...but I cannot for the life of me remember what the hell it was called.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would a Fallout title STILL be as good if it's post-apocalyptic setting and lore were to be used with Final Fantasy VII or Oblivion Game Mechanics? Personally, I say it would!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean hideously dumbed down, the waterchips location is given to you immediately by comrade green arrow, NPCs cannot say nothing beyond little quips like "I saw a radscorpion yesterday, horrible creatures.... I avoid them whenever I can. Goodbye" or giving you the option to take a quest or not and finally, the skills system is cut down as much as humanly possible to primarily all combat skills (who needs science, persuasion, outdoorsman etc skills when you have combat skills!).
Oh yes, I can imagine it now and it's utterly horrible. Now Oblivion with its graphics and world, with Fallouts depth, actual choices with meaningful consequences, NPCs that are actually characters and not walking fenceposts for one-liners plus more visceral nature overall, that's a game I could get into.
Fallout works because of SPECIAL, which for its setting and the way the game was designed was a perfect system. Oblivions system would not work in Fallout because it does not have the depth of SPECIAL or the skills in Fallout (namely the multitude of non-combat skills).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel Bethesda was trying to simulate a fantasy lifestyle as accurately as possible, <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: The alternative history WW2 RPG I was thinking about is called Another War. There may also be a sequel being made called Weird War. IIRC Another War is strange for having MG42s+1 (not even kidding) among other bizzaire things.
Fallout and Final Fantasty VII both have switchable systems, and can either be turn based, or active based. Unless you're using the default settings of course <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Space Opera seems to be a rather small genre, seeing as you've got the likes of fantasy, and medieval in there as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another War is strange for having MG42s+1 (not even kidding) among other bizzaire things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WW2 doesn't really translate well in AD&D, eh?
<!--quoteo(post=1596584:date=Jan 9 2007, 07:50 AM:name=Lt_Patch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Patch @ Jan 9 2007, 07:50 AM) [snapback]1596584[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Space Opera seems to be a rather small genre, seeing as you've got the likes of fantasy, and medieval in there as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I should have done a better job of picking options for this poll but my main goal was to get some discussion going <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
Still, a lot of RPG games go for either Fantasy, or Sci-fi, because of the incredible artistic freedom with explaining things that are otherwise inexplicable. If you come across something in a sci-fi RPG which shouldn't be able to happen, you can say something like "Well, 50 years ago physicists perfected a method to manipulate the basic parts that make up the molecular items, and we make this technology that does this, which explains why that happens"...
I stil don't think you aren't understanding what I am saying. I mean for the most basic mechanics to be translated. Basic game mechanics, like the first person perspective, real time combat, character progression system, and location transition. Your examples are not core game mechanics. I could actually change all those things you just listed with maybe 30 minutes in the Elder Scrolls Construction Set.
Look, your pretending like we would take Oblivion, and replace the mudcrab with a radscorpion, the dremora with robots, and the towns with junkyards, and uh, that's it. No, this is NOT what I mean. We would not simply CONVERT a bunch of Fallout Lore into Oblivion and leave it at that. Obviously, some changes need to be made! The only thing that the newFallout would have in common with Oblivion is:
1. First Person Perspective 2. Real Time Combat 3. Fully Rendered Game World 4. Level Based Character Development
IT WILL NOT HAVE
1. Alchemy 2. Swordfighting 3. NPC Dialog 4. Compass System
I hope you understand what I mean now. We will all see soon though, because Bethesda is already in the planning stages of Fallout 3 anyways.
Also, that video you posted was just game manipulation, the game didn't predict the character would go off and cheat. If any sensible game NPC saw you kill another person, he would alarm the guards immediately. If you noticed, the character was completely invisible, which is extremely hard to achieve without cheats. Granted, Radiant AI sometimes spawns off really strange behaviour. At one point, the developers had a problem because a guard would get really hungry, and leave his post to search for any food items closeby. The other guards would run off to arrest him. Then, all the NPCs in the Town began looting all the stores because there were no guards. Even if that behaviour was unrealistic, it still demonstrates that Radiant AI is a pretty good simulation of humans for a game. I've never heard of a game whose NPCs could achieve this sort of behaviour without the use of scripted events.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->! The only thing that the newFallout would have in common with Oblivion is:
1. First Person Perspective 2. Real Time Combat 3. Fully Rendered Game World 4. Level Based Character Development<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh, this causes a mutitude of problems game balancing and system wise, especially because you're porting a system [SPECIAL] that works a certain way in a turn based environment into a real time one. That causes a lot more issues than you realise, especially if it's skill based and not stats based. For example, what exactly does the perception stat do in a real time environment that is skill based and no longer turn based? Pretty much nothing.
Also I'm not sure what you mean by level based character development, because SPECIAL already includes levels as a part of its mechanics.
I'm still very unconvinced by your argument.
A game isn't just its background and theme, it's also about how its mechanics fit into the whole and the way these mechanics support all of the elements together. While I'm sick of fantasy as a general rule (it's popular because it's easy to do), it's not like you can just take any games basic concepts and throw a different games mechanics on it and end up with the same result.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I hope you understand what I mean now. We will all see soon though, because Bethesda is already in the planning stages of Fallout 3 anyways. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, I can't wait for Oblivion with guns. Woohoo! I saw a mudcrab! Wait I mean radscorpion!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any sensible game NPC saw you kill another person, he would alarm the guards immediately. If you noticed, the character was completely invisible, which is monumentally impossible to achieve without cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not, check again: The eye indicates that he is actually fully visible at the time and not invisible. I've also done this for myself just to see if it would work (and in fact, it does). The reason for the sneak attack is to one shot the character (IE cause enough damage), not to actually not be seen while doing it.
Edit: It is worth noting that virtually everyone who tries to make excuses for the incredibly poor AI in oblivion tries to simply write this off as 'cheating', modding the game or similar. The absolute fact of the matter though is it succinctly demonstrates how bad the AI in Oblivion truly is, especially after Bethsofts rather, shall we say <i>less than modest</i> claims about how realistic it would be. If you don't believe what you can see with your own eyes, try it for yourself. I did and gained endless amusement from killing them repeatedly until I eventually knocked them out the door. The video maker is only using sneak attack to one-shot the characters (which is how this hillarity works), but if you can do sufficient damage you can use anything else you feel like. Also once again, he is visible while attacking.
There is no cheating involved in any of these cases <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Just incredibly poor AI programming.
To be quite frank, I'd rather Fallout use the mechanics that made the game great to begin with.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lt Patch+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt Patch)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WW2 doesn't really translate well in AD&D, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it was AD&D based or anything, it had some weird system that I still don't really understand. All I know is you could get +1 M1 Garands, a MG42 +1 and all sorts of zany stuff. It was a fairly decent game as well but nothing to write home about.
I still don't think you are understand what I am saying. Why are you talking about transfering turn-based system into real-time? Why do you talk about the Perception Stat? Why do you refer to Oblivion with guns? WE AREN'T TRYING TO RECREATE FALLOUT 1. We are trying to create a <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->NEW<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> real-time, fully rendered world, first-person game SET IN THE FALLOUT UNIVERSE. I don't understand why you keep trying to "hold on" to the game mechanics in Fallout 1. We would drop these, and replace them with other things.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->WE TAKE THE FREAKIN' OBLIVION GAME ENGINE AND BUILD A FALLOUT TITLE OFF IT. WE DO NOT SIMPLY TAKE OBLIVION AND CREATE NEW SOUNDS, MODELS, AND TEXTURES.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now Oblivion with its graphics and world, with Fallouts depth, <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->actual choices with meaningful consequences<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, NPCs that are actually characters and not walking fenceposts for one-liners plus more visceral nature overall, that's a game I could get into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look, you already GOT IT right here, man. I NEVER said that we would retain Oblivion's non-linear gameplay. In fact, it is certainly possible to convert stock Oblivion into a linear RPG by using the Construction Set, with no modification to the game engine. Go ahead and make the new Fallout title with linear gameplay if it works better (which I agree it most likely does). The point is that we use Oblivion's game engine.
If you want to grasp my idea better, I REALLY reccomend this free game, Strife. It's one of those awesomely good games that didn't get enough publicity. This game is actually created off the DOOM1 engine. You might be thinking how the hell would anyone create a good RPG off DOOM1? Well, take a look. In addition to the fast-paced FPS combat style, you've got voice acting, good plot, multiple endings, emotional characters, etc... all the stuff of good RPGs.
ATLEAST read the wiki if you don't have time to try it. It IS a DOS game, so don't expect awesome graphics...
<!--quoteo(post=1597071:date=Jan 10 2007, 08:22 AM:name=emperor_awesome)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(emperor_awesome @ Jan 10 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]1597071[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I like the game that... what's it called, you hit the ball from one side of the screen to the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO as a game designer, first you define the game play elements your interested in exploiting primarily. Then build a story that allows you to implement game play as effectively and abundantly as possible throughout the story. And from there the ideal universe for your title should fall into place naturally as the story takes shape. If I want to include alot of fast paced gunfighting I probably don't want a medieval fantasy universe. If I want long drawn out strategical battles I need to choose a genera that allows the characters the abilities to make my game play realistic, probably more something medival or magic oriented that allows me to magically shield characters from damage and what not.
As a creative writer I generally develop characters first and then put them into a universe that allows them to do the things I'm interested in seeing them do, rather then trying to define a universe and then make up characters to fit within it. Universe and genera is irrelevant to the game if you can't sell game play and character first.
<!--quoteo(post=1597071:date=Jan 10 2007, 08:22 AM:name=emperor_awesome)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(emperor_awesome @ Jan 10 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]1597071[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I like the game that... what's it called, you hit the ball from one side of the screen to the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1597177:date=Jan 10 2007, 06:32 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jan 10 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]1597177[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IMO as a game designer, first you define the game play elements your interested in exploiting primarily. Then build a story that allows you to implement game play as effectively and abundantly as possible throughout the story. And from there the ideal universe for your title should fall into place naturally as the story takes shape. If I want to include alot of fast paced gunfighting I probably don't want a medieval fantasy universe. If I want long drawn out strategical battles I need to choose a genera that allows the characters the abilities to make my game play realistic, probably more something medival or magic oriented that allows me to magically shield characters from damage and what not.
As a creative writer I generally develop characters first and then put them into a universe that allows them to do the things I'm interested in seeing them do, rather then trying to define a universe and then make up characters to fit within it. Universe and genera is irrelevant to the game if you can't sell game play and character first. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, that is what many games companies have done in the past, and sold the universe over the characters, and their development (FF10-2 is a prime example of this IMO).
Now, what I would do (as a storywriter) is to think of a plot first, get a reasonable idea of how things were going to happen, get some good vital parts (like a character dies, a war starts, etc), then put that all to one side, except for the setting, and start to create some core characters, quite a few of them, because the story probably won't be driven by one person in particular (games where the main character gets kidnapped or otherwise incapacitated, and you have to rescue them or get something for them to recover, or take over command until they recover, etc).
After you've got your setting, first draft plot, and a good selection of characters, you look at your people, and you look at your plot. Try to piece them into different places. Who looks like the leader? Someone people can instantly see is the leader, or are they given clues as to who it really is? Any love interests in the characters? (Although they are a nightmare to pull off properly...)
If the plot needs changing to accomodate these characters, then start making subtle changes to it. The story should be based around the characters, even though you've pulled the characters from the setting, which creates the plot.
Plot spins are NOT necessary if you're a good story teller. Only very bad writers rely on consistantly throwing the plot out of the window. Maybe one or two spins, if the story is long enough. But if you put too many in, then your audience gets a sense of unpredicability, and becomes uninterested in the plot, because they would then be unable to follow it properly.
And KFDM, Fantasy is probably chosen the most (over other types of fiction) because people feel more creatively at home writing a fantasy setting, than a sci-fi one. Mainly because in a sci-fi setting, you have to be coherant between all the technology that the characters actively use. They're in a ship (for arguments sake), now the shields, if you look at the Freelancer world, are also used in tractor beams to direct gravity. Now, if you look in a different sense, it might be direct manipulation of gravity through a single piece of machinery that can make directional, small cone, gravity that creates tractor beams, and not the shield technology that indirectly manipulates it. Cohesion is a ######, and it's probably th main reason why people tend to use "traditional" fantasy instead of science fiction for their RPGs. Ok, you get all the cool explosions which will cater for the lowest denominator, but you've got to do so much more work to get the setting to be believable. Direct surroundings need to be properly explained, so as to not seem random. Basing a game in a scientifically driven world is too much hassle for some people. I've tried it once, and it was SO much more work than just using direct fantasy...
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That being said; there is something charming about big swords and sorcery, but it's also very easy to become a cliché that way.
"I grow tired of shouting battle cries when fighting this mage. Boo will finish his eyeballs once and for all, so he does not rise again! Evil, meet my sword! SWORD, MEET EVIL!"
nuff said <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!!"
Anyhoo...
Fantasy has to be it for me. Not just the "I cast level 99 Ultima on j00 as$ and burn all of teh planet away with ya!!!!1oneoneone" magic part, but because there's much more (for the want of a better word) "freedom" in the fantasy setting. Not everything has to be rational, because "you can explain things away with magic", which doesn't always work. Remember, FF7 was what you could call more of a fantasy setting, but it had technological explainations for many things, and magical for others. And the rest of them were mainly down to a guy with a 10ft long sword...
I'd hate to see a historical RPG, mainly because your storyline is pre-determined to many points, unless you use an alternative history, like the bad guys won WW2, and now everyone speaks German, with a small resistance movement fighting the system (yawn...). Use purely historical markers, and you're screwed. Use alternative history ones, and you're clichéd...
The reason being that I don't really have a favourite of the listed genres, for me it's more important what you do with the genres. Let me see if I can explain this.. I like a middleground between our regular world (not really mattering when it is, though, I guess Fantasy or the middleages is about as far back in history for me to keep it interesting, but that could just be because RPGs usually don't take material from THAT far back..) and fantasy/high tech.
So in essence.. Low Fantasy or "low high tech" (hows THAT for an oxymoron <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And especially gritty and dark worlds, Warhammer for instance, or Shadowrun - or postapocalyptic :S, I suppose in a way it gives more character to the world - as opposed to some high fantasy worlds that are "perfect" in a way, and seems superficial, D&D comes to my mind (but it really depends what the DM does with it :S), but somehow magical items and whatnot everywhere just seems wrong to me :X it doesn't add up so to speak.
If Troika were to reform tomorrow and start work on a new RPG, would you rather it be set in Forgotten Realms or Planescape? That is the question posed by the OP.
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Like tankefugl and DHP both said, I wouldn't care. The setting is just another aspect of what the game designer uses when they make their game. A company like Troika is going to turn out something good no matter where it's set, which is why I think it's silly to have preferences for one setting or another when what you really have a preference for is a good game. I can understand people who enjoy playing more in a postapocalyptic world or a fantasy world, but I think if you're designing for the majority of people, what they want is a good RPG, which they will play regardless of the setting.
However, on the computer, there's Action RPGs and J-RPGs, there I don't really mind the cliche's as much, probably because I focus more on the game mechanics, and the "joy" of levelling up and becoming stronger. However, that's because it's what I've come to expect from the action RPG and J-RPGs.
For "actual" RPGs (yeah J-RPGs are this as well, but a seperate genre in a way..), whether it be on the PC or Pen and Paper I prefer what I've mentioned... Which is the reason I don't really like NWN or NWN2 :X, well haven't tried NWN2, but it hasn't caught my interest <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Then again D&D is also the incarnation of cliche in a way :X
okay now go back to your mass debating. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Well, another way of putting it I guess, is that I want a fleshed out setting, and a setting with character with as few cliche's as possible (except for those RPGs that go on these in an attempt to be funny I guess <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And to me, high fantasy and the like is just cliche'd and superficial as I'd already said :X. So low fantasy/sci-fi and polish cuts it for me.. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
However, on the computer, there's Action RPGs and J-RPGs, there I don't really mind the cliche's as much, probably because I focus more on the game mechanics, and the "joy" of levelling up and becoming stronger. However, that's because it's what I've come to expect from the action RPG and J-RPGs.
For "actual" RPGs (yeah J-RPGs are this as well, but a seperate genre in a way..), whether it be on the PC or Pen and Paper I prefer what I've mentioned... Which is the reason I don't really like NWN or NWN2 :X, well haven't tried NWN2, but it hasn't caught my interest <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Then again D&D is also the incarnation of cliche in a way :X
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NWN2 is much more of a game than NWN was. NWN was more of a toolset with a crappy campaign; NWN2's campaign is very well written.
NWN2 is much more of a game than NWN was. NWN was more of a toolset with a crappy campaign; NWN2's campaign is very well written.
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It's the same with any new engine or toolset. The first game the property developer makes is always a showcase game. Neverwinter Nights was Bioware's way of showing of the Aurora toolset, same as Half-Life 2 is (in my opinion) a showcase of the Source engine.
<b>Linear (Final Fantasy, Fallout):</b> The game contains a definite storyline, with a beginning and an end. It might have some side stories. After the game is beaten, there exists no replay value.
<b>Game Mechanics:</b> Battle System, Character Growth, Location Transition, Player Perspective...etc.
<i>A good combination of RPG Archtype along Game Mechanics should create a good RPG, regardless of setting. Setting should not be determining your RPG Archtype or Game Mechanics, because that would essentially mean you are rehashing someone else's idea. If you chose to base your Game Mechanics on the Fantasy, that makes no sense because setting does not determine Game Mechanics. If you DID manage to do this, than it basically meant you derived your Mechanics off someone else's already established Fantasy game.</i>
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Take a look at the difference between Oblivion, Fallout Tactics, and Final Fantasy:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/RPGGameMechanics.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Now, I want you to imagine what would happen if you took the game titles, and switched them around. How would Oblivion look, still retaining all of it's Lore, Setting, and Background, if it was using Final Fantasy VII Mechanics? What about Fallout: Tactics using Oblivion Mechanics? (Tactics is unique in which it combines RPG and RTS, so it has a small exception. Use Fallout 1 or 2 instead.) What do you guys think about this? <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Would a Fallout title STILL be as good if it's post-apocalyptic setting and lore were to be used with Final Fantasy VII or Oblivion Game Mechanics? Personally, I say it would!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<i>NOTICE: "Endurance Based Health System" or "Dwarven Tech Tree" do not count as Game Mechanics. These are merely subsets of "Combat System" and Character Development."</i>
It's the same with any new engine or toolset. The first game the property developer makes is always a showcase game. Neverwinter Nights was Bioware's way of showing of the Aurora toolset, same as Half-Life 2 is (in my opinion) a showcase of the Source engine.
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Except that NWN2 uses an entirely different engine and toolset, which is new. So yeah.
Woot, Crotalus agrees with me too! That makes 4 v 1, Patchy boy.
Also, any praise or unsactioned measuring of Oblivion's worth will result in a very angry Pelinal eating out your neckvein. Seriously, I have yet to grasp how this game could suck that much, yes recieve so much praise. I'll chalk it up to shiny graphics. Fortunately, the faction-expanding plugin KoTN for Oblivion is pure awesome. Though.
For instance, V:tM Bloodlines. Easily my favorite RPG of the last 5 years, and probably only because I'm a World of Darkness fan.
If you have Oblivion for 360, then I can see why it is boring. There is no new content besides the ones Bethesda releases. However, for the computer, you can practically play new quests and campaigns forever...atleast until we get Elder Scrolls 5.
I feel Bethesda was trying to simulate a fantasy lifestyle as accurately as possible, instead of molding gameplay around a strong storyline. That is why the game seems rather boring at times, because there is no strong central story to cling to. That being said, to enjoy this game, you need to pretend like you are actually living in the game. This means reading a few books before going to bed for the night, eating some breakfast in the morning, go foraging in the wilderness for wild vegetation, screw around in your laboratory for the afternoon, and patrol the forest in search of a ruin to plunder for the evening. This game is not for everyone though, it wasn't really designed for someone to go "power-leveling" and getting "1337 lewt."
There was an alternative history WW2 RPG a while ago...but I cannot for the life of me remember what the hell it was called.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would a Fallout title STILL be as good if it's post-apocalyptic setting and lore were to be used with Final Fantasy VII or Oblivion Game Mechanics? Personally, I say it would!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean hideously dumbed down, the waterchips location is given to you immediately by comrade green arrow, NPCs cannot say nothing beyond little quips like "I saw a radscorpion yesterday, horrible creatures.... I avoid them whenever I can. Goodbye" or giving you the option to take a quest or not and finally, the skills system is cut down as much as humanly possible to primarily all combat skills (who needs science, persuasion, outdoorsman etc skills when you have combat skills!).
Oh yes, I can imagine it now and it's utterly horrible. Now Oblivion with its graphics and world, with Fallouts depth, actual choices with meaningful consequences, NPCs that are actually characters and not walking fenceposts for one-liners plus more visceral nature overall, that's a game I could get into.
Fallout works because of SPECIAL, which for its setting and the way the game was designed was a perfect system. Oblivions system would not work in Fallout because it does not have the depth of SPECIAL or the skills in Fallout (namely the multitude of non-combat skills).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel Bethesda was trying to simulate a fantasy lifestyle as accurately as possible, <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KN7cKO8-P0" target="_blank">They sure succeeded there.</a>
Edit: The alternative history WW2 RPG I was thinking about is called Another War. There may also be a sequel being made called Weird War. IIRC Another War is strange for having MG42s+1 (not even kidding) among other bizzaire things.
Fallout and Final Fantasty VII both have switchable systems, and can either be turn based, or active based. Unless you're using the default settings of course <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Space Opera seems to be a rather small genre, seeing as you've got the likes of fantasy, and medieval in there as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another War is strange for having MG42s+1 (not even kidding) among other bizzaire things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WW2 doesn't really translate well in AD&D, eh?
Yeah, I should have done a better job of picking options for this poll but my main goal was to get some discussion going <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
Look, your pretending like we would take Oblivion, and replace the mudcrab with a radscorpion, the dremora with robots, and the towns with junkyards, and uh, that's it. No, this is NOT what I mean. We would not simply CONVERT a bunch of Fallout Lore into Oblivion and leave it at that. Obviously, some changes need to be made! The only thing that the newFallout would have in common with Oblivion is:
1. First Person Perspective
2. Real Time Combat
3. Fully Rendered Game World
4. Level Based Character Development
IT WILL NOT HAVE
1. Alchemy
2. Swordfighting
3. NPC Dialog
4. Compass System
I hope you understand what I mean now. We will all see soon though, because Bethesda is already in the planning stages of Fallout 3 anyways.
Also, that video you posted was just game manipulation, the game didn't predict the character would go off and cheat. If any sensible game NPC saw you kill another person, he would alarm the guards immediately. If you noticed, the character was completely invisible, which is extremely hard to achieve without cheats. Granted, Radiant AI sometimes spawns off really strange behaviour. At one point, the developers had a problem because a guard would get really hungry, and leave his post to search for any food items closeby. The other guards would run off to arrest him. Then, all the NPCs in the Town began looting all the stores because there were no guards. Even if that behaviour was unrealistic, it still demonstrates that Radiant AI is a pretty good simulation of humans for a game. I've never heard of a game whose NPCs could achieve this sort of behaviour without the use of scripted events.
1. First Person Perspective
2. Real Time Combat
3. Fully Rendered Game World
4. Level Based Character Development<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh, this causes a mutitude of problems game balancing and system wise, especially because you're porting a system [SPECIAL] that works a certain way in a turn based environment into a real time one. That causes a lot more issues than you realise, especially if it's skill based and not stats based. For example, what exactly does the perception stat do in a real time environment that is skill based and no longer turn based? Pretty much nothing.
Also I'm not sure what you mean by level based character development, because SPECIAL already includes levels as a part of its mechanics.
I'm still very unconvinced by your argument.
A game isn't just its background and theme, it's also about how its mechanics fit into the whole and the way these mechanics support all of the elements together. While I'm sick of fantasy as a general rule (it's popular because it's easy to do), it's not like you can just take any games basic concepts and throw a different games mechanics on it and end up with the same result.
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I hope you understand what I mean now. We will all see soon though, because Bethesda is already in the planning stages of Fallout 3 anyways. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, I can't wait for Oblivion with guns. Woohoo! I saw a mudcrab! Wait I mean radscorpion!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any sensible game NPC saw you kill another person, he would alarm the guards immediately. If you noticed, the character was completely invisible, which is monumentally impossible to achieve without cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not, check again: The eye indicates that he is actually fully visible at the time and not invisible. I've also done this for myself just to see if it would work (and in fact, it does). The reason for the sneak attack is to one shot the character (IE cause enough damage), not to actually not be seen while doing it.
Edit: It is worth noting that virtually everyone who tries to make excuses for the incredibly poor AI in oblivion tries to simply write this off as 'cheating', modding the game or similar. The absolute fact of the matter though is it succinctly demonstrates how bad the AI in Oblivion truly is, especially after Bethsofts rather, shall we say <i>less than modest</i> claims about how realistic it would be. If you don't believe what you can see with your own eyes, try it for yourself. I did and gained endless amusement from killing them repeatedly until I eventually knocked them out the door. The video maker is only using sneak attack to one-shot the characters (which is how this hillarity works), but if you can do sufficient damage you can use anything else you feel like. Also once again, he is visible while attacking.
Also:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q%5dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q...h?v=fRWY6TOeR1Q</a>.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEN6avvCiMI%5dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEN6avvCiMI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEN6avvCiMI...h?v=PEN6avvCiMI</a>.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8hetpJxXSw&mode=user&search=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8hetpJxXSw...ser&search=</a>.
There is no cheating involved in any of these cases <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Just incredibly poor AI programming.
To be quite frank, I'd rather Fallout use the mechanics that made the game great to begin with.
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WW2 doesn't really translate well in AD&D, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it was AD&D based or anything, it had some weird system that I still don't really understand. All I know is you could get +1 M1 Garands, a MG42 +1 and all sorts of zany stuff. It was a fairly decent game as well but nothing to write home about.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->WE TAKE THE FREAKIN' OBLIVION GAME ENGINE AND BUILD A FALLOUT TITLE OFF IT.
WE DO NOT SIMPLY TAKE OBLIVION AND CREATE NEW SOUNDS, MODELS, AND TEXTURES.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now Oblivion with its graphics and world, with Fallouts depth, <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->actual choices with meaningful consequences<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, NPCs that are actually characters and not walking fenceposts for one-liners plus more visceral nature overall, that's a game I could get into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, you already GOT IT right here, man. I NEVER said that we would retain Oblivion's non-linear gameplay. In fact, it is certainly possible to convert stock Oblivion into a linear RPG by using the Construction Set, with no modification to the game engine. Go ahead and make the new Fallout title with linear gameplay if it works better (which I agree it most likely does). The point is that we use Oblivion's game engine.
If you want to grasp my idea better, I REALLY reccomend this free game, Strife. It's one of those awesomely good games that didn't get enough publicity. This game is actually created off the DOOM1 engine. You might be thinking how the hell would anyone create a good RPG off DOOM1? Well, take a look. In addition to the fast-paced FPS combat style, you've got voice acting, good plot, multiple endings, emotional characters, etc... all the stuff of good RPGs.
ATLEAST read the wiki if you don't have time to try it. It IS a DOS game, so don't expect awesome graphics...
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strife_%28computer_game%29" target="_blank">Wikipedia: Strife</a>
<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/strife/index.html" target="_blank">Strife Download</a>
I like the game that... what's it called, you hit the ball from one side of the screen to the other.
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Missile commander.
wait..
As a creative writer I generally develop characters first and then put them into a universe that allows them to do the things I'm interested in seeing them do, rather then trying to define a universe and then make up characters to fit within it. Universe and genera is irrelevant to the game if you can't sell game play and character first.
I like the game that... what's it called, you hit the ball from one side of the screen to the other.
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Pong ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
IMO as a game designer, first you define the game play elements your interested in exploiting primarily. Then build a story that allows you to implement game play as effectively and abundantly as possible throughout the story. And from there the ideal universe for your title should fall into place naturally as the story takes shape. If I want to include alot of fast paced gunfighting I probably don't want a medieval fantasy universe. If I want long drawn out strategical battles I need to choose a genera that allows the characters the abilities to make my game play realistic, probably more something medival or magic oriented that allows me to magically shield characters from damage and what not.
As a creative writer I generally develop characters first and then put them into a universe that allows them to do the things I'm interested in seeing them do, rather then trying to define a universe and then make up characters to fit within it. Universe and genera is irrelevant to the game if you can't sell game play and character first.
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Unfortunately, that is what many games companies have done in the past, and sold the universe over the characters, and their development (FF10-2 is a prime example of this IMO).
Now, what I would do (as a storywriter) is to think of a plot first, get a reasonable idea of how things were going to happen, get some good vital parts (like a character dies, a war starts, etc), then put that all to one side, except for the setting, and start to create some core characters, quite a few of them, because the story probably won't be driven by one person in particular (games where the main character gets kidnapped or otherwise incapacitated, and you have to rescue them or get something for them to recover, or take over command until they recover, etc).
After you've got your setting, first draft plot, and a good selection of characters, you look at your people, and you look at your plot. Try to piece them into different places. Who looks like the leader? Someone people can instantly see is the leader, or are they given clues as to who it really is? Any love interests in the characters? (Although they are a nightmare to pull off properly...)
If the plot needs changing to accomodate these characters, then start making subtle changes to it. The story should be based around the characters, even though you've pulled the characters from the setting, which creates the plot.
Plot spins are NOT necessary if you're a good story teller. Only very bad writers rely on consistantly throwing the plot out of the window. Maybe one or two spins, if the story is long enough. But if you put too many in, then your audience gets a sense of unpredicability, and becomes uninterested in the plot, because they would then be unable to follow it properly.
And KFDM, Fantasy is probably chosen the most (over other types of fiction) because people feel more creatively at home writing a fantasy setting, than a sci-fi one. Mainly because in a sci-fi setting, you have to be coherant between all the technology that the characters actively use. They're in a ship (for arguments sake), now the shields, if you look at the Freelancer world, are also used in tractor beams to direct gravity. Now, if you look in a different sense, it might be direct manipulation of gravity through a single piece of machinery that can make directional, small cone, gravity that creates tractor beams, and not the shield technology that indirectly manipulates it. Cohesion is a ######, and it's probably th main reason why people tend to use "traditional" fantasy instead of science fiction for their RPGs.
Ok, you get all the cool explosions which will cater for the lowest denominator, but you've got to do so much more work to get the setting to be believable. Direct surroundings need to be properly explained, so as to not seem random. Basing a game in a scientifically driven world is too much hassle for some people. I've tried it once, and it was SO much more work than just using direct fantasy...