Well Charlie, I think you overestimate how much Valve grossed via NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> You were calculating at HL = $50, but the price dropped throughout the lifetime of NS. But a solid $1 million could be quite possible, which is still a lot <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> .
Glad I could help with the survey and good luck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Strategy in pubs? Mine is "I go early lerk and pwn lmg'er rines bc A) the com doesn't realize that his marines will keep dying unless he hands out some shotguns and B) I hate Dante b/c he killed me twice in a row on a pub w/ an LMG...
C) Even most really good CS players can't shoot a lerk flying in random directions (at least @ the LAN centers I've been to. lol. Maybe CAL-I CS players can..but..it does take some skill (or toggle, COUGH*dante*COUGH). LOL haha. j/k dante <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
<b>Seriously though, I think 1st day playing has a good logical point. What if the aliens had a way to 'research' extra bonus things on top of dropping res-hungry chambers? That'd be pretty cool. </b>
And...a marine would get faster @ reloading or...running...or could jump higher or whatever when he got a triple kill...or 5 kills in a row, or 10....etc etc. It'd be more of an incentive not to just $#%#'ing run @ good peeps. There'd be consequences other than just dying and giving away field position. But that might be a bit..unbalanced. If a marine went 20-0.....that'd be bad if it was ....unbalanced at all. LOL
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited January 2007
I just spent 30 minutes cleaning up this topic, time I could have spent much better elsewhere. This is not a topic for a detailed discussion of the deep complexities of chess and counter-strike. It is not an invitation to trolls to draw out heated debate on irrelevant points. It is not going to descend into petty sniping again. Some of the posters went outside the community guidelines in their efforts to prove their generally irrelevant points. If it happens again you will be treated to a temporary suspension as a final warning. I also deleted some innocent posts that were part of the derailed thread of discussion.
Now please, can we get back to discussing the survey?
I think the strongest part of the survey was how most people play for teamplay. IMO thats the best part of NS: how in many situations, two or more players working together end up having more strength than the sum of their separate strengths and abilities. This happens in all team games of course, but NS specifically strives for and rewards this. If you're planning on changing aspects of NS, if this general gameplay mechanic is kept in mind (like it has been for so much of the rest), I'm sure it'll turn out great.
This is not a CS discussion, Puzl please be nice <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I've been playing for a lot of time, but only played 1.04 a few times. I've been playing NS since April 2003.
I really liked the idea of a survey but members should receive a mail pointing to it. I only knew there was a forum because of a post in a NS related forum (not hits one).
I can agree with the 43% that play the game from the beggining but like me, only assume that because they have been playing for a long time. Most of the players on the server I play on, are old school players.
Make a new survey and use your user mailing list to reach players. Then cap it to about 5000 and you're done.
i realy wanted a NS:S (i know, just me and my hand want it)... The game is good already... changes should be only for balance and, of course, graphics...
anyway, you managed to use the best of HL1 engine... try do it with source engine too...
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1597730:date=Jan 11 2007, 07:26 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 11 2007, 07:26 PM) [snapback]1597730[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Some food for thought when considering a sequel: <a href="http://actionvault.ign.com/features/interviews/tribes2.shtml" target="_blank">http://actionvault.ign.com/features/interviews/tribes2.shtml</a>
One key issue I can remember about T2 on release: 1. It lacked the connection from the original community due to it's differences. 2. Got canceled due to low sales. 3. It eventually became better with "Classic" mode, and old school maps, after being rehauled by GarageGames, but that was too little too late.
Tribes 3? Got canceled before they even put out the first multiplayer patch. But it sure did have a lot of new things and improvements. Hell, it even had an MTV Music video and a full blown single player mode.
I liked the mention of:
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tribes 2 didn't get cancelled due to low sales, it was cancelled because Sierra pushed it out before it was finished (too many crashes/patches). I loved the game though, was worthy of being a sequal.
Tribes 3 (Vengeance) was a joke - Low budget, made by people who didn't understand or "get" the game, and was really dumbed down and featureless.
<!--quoteo(post=1600070:date=Jan 19 2007, 09:07 AM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Plasma @ Jan 19 2007, 09:07 AM) [snapback]1600070[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Tribes 2 didn't get cancelled due to low sales, it was cancelled because Sierra pushed it out before it was finished (too many crashes/patches). I loved the game though, was worthy of being a sequal. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, well either way, the community transition sucked.
_
One thing to take notice what they did right though, Largely for the "new" and "improved" elements. They weren't *instead* of classic content. They were in addition to it.
If they were going to make a Tribes minus the Disc Launcher, Skiing, and Chaingun. They game would feel rather hollow.
And in this blog Flayara mentions NS2 should only maintain a mere third of it's original content.
I just can't see that going over well. It's basically forfieting what they've built up, in favor of going back to the drawing board, and praying it they can achieve the same calibre of fine tuned gameplay.
One thing you learn about sequels is that the community is much less tolerant of the game's flaws. Usually expecting something equal or better than the original at Day 1. Source port would easily deliver that. Redesigning nearly the whole game has a strong chance not to.
I've played, on and off, sporadically, since right before v2.0 came out. I remember the first time I played. I ran from the IP, not knowing what I was doing, saw a skulk, killed it, and thought: "holy skulk! THIS IS FUN! AND EASY AS ish!" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
...
I still suck at NS. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Sometimes, I'll do well, run k/d ratios of 1.0-1.2. Those days are over. Not only did I fail to really grasp how to deal with the various alien lifeforms, and I'm only smart enough to know to build crap, but now that I've got tremors, and a bad mouse, I can't even kill things. An in depth walkthrough would be quite sexy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
If anyone is still paying attention to this thread, I'd like to point out one thing:
This, <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of these results didn't surprise me, but "longer games" sure did. I think the bigger audience (ie, older audience, which I am) doesn't have the free time to enjoy longer games so that is my bias there. Most of our audience has 40-120 minutes to spend when they sit down to play. In contrast, most "casual" players probably have 10-15 minutes to play a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can be easily explained by this, <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Most respondents play for the teamplay</b> ...not "strategy", "commanding", "ambience" or "setting", but for "teamplay". "RTS/strategy" was close behind though I forgot to put in "action" as a choice so that might've changed the results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shorter game provides the player with more opportunity to begin the game and end the game (win/lose). But, if the majority are playing for teamwork as opposed to winning or losing then longer games would be ideal. Speaking for myself, the one and only thing that keeps pushing me away from NS is the lack of teamwork. It's great that there are players out there who can wipe an entire alien team with their LMG but that does nothing for my enjoyment of the game.
As pointed out earlier (by people who pay way more attention to this stuff than me-whew), NS is generally about gaining and holding territory in a map. Many of the early NS games were insanely long. I remember leaving a game on a Saturday morning after playing for a couple of hours and returning later that evening to the same game! But, did it matter to me? No. Why? Because winning and losing means little more than switching teams and/or playing on a new map.
Don't take this as meaning I want more rewards for winners or anything like that, I just want to point out that the time spent in-game is more precious to players like me who don't have enough extra time to spend online. Winning as fast as possible just means I have to sit and wait for a map to load and then listen to 10 marines explain why they're smarter than anyone else but they won't command or how every alien needs resource nodes but they're the "early lerk".
It's long been known that you can only fix the game, not the players. I just want NS and NS2 to be fun again.
join a clan then. youll get to play with the same people every time, so teamwork is on a whole new level compared to pubs. there are no mandatory "training sessions" or any nonsense like that, you'll play when you have the time, although sometimes sacrifices are required.
if you have a tightly-knit team you dont even need all of you sitting on irc waiting for a scrim, just get someone to call you if they need a player and you happen to have spare time (unless you already spend all your spare time on the computer).
It still baffles me everytime people say that 'ns lost its fun ever since 1.04' etc. Yeah 1.04 was awesome, but imo this version is way better. I mean, come on, needing two hives to get fade?! Only ever going DC first? Always being starved for res and overly depending on that one goddamn voted-in gorge?
I still have an absolute blast playing NS. I did the competitive scene for awhile and might get back into it, but pubs are still my mainstay. Obviously there are times where the rounds are pretty pathetic or stupidly stacked, but I find that those rounds greatly decrease as you familiarize yourself with a certain server. I used to hate Guns, but then my home server died and i got Donator on guns. Its been months now, and i know most of the players. As such, I know how to get teamwork out of them, and how to balance the initial stacking, much like they do with me.
If you guys are having such horrible games, maybe you have the wrong attitude, or the wrong approach. But the underlying game mechanics are not to blame whatsoever.
Maybe, they liked it when you didn't have to rely on uber-fades to get you through to hive 2 or when fades actually had a decent learning curve with acid-rockets...
I don't like the gap between the competitive and pub games as of now.
You have these uber 43-3 fades, then you have the pub fade who dies in 3 seconds because he lost acceleration when he hit the wall (3.2 ahem).
Then when someone says perhaps make the game easier, people scream, YOO NEEDS TO GET BETTAR AT IT on the forums.
If you really want fast-paced games, there's combat people. NS should be about strategy and strategy means thinking, which doesn't mean it'll be fast.
But then again, we could make the game harder so that clanners will dominate pub games, which is 99% of NS, yet gets appropiately 1% of the attention.
this game isnt as popular as cs for a reason. there comes a time when you should stop listening to the hardcore players, because they arent the ones making your fanbase big. when you are so deep in, its hard to see teh surface.
maybe a new player wil play for a day, see how hard the game is because you die so fast, and quit.
ns requires a big amount of effort to become good at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ns requires a big amount of effort to become good at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Otherwise, it would be a hollow game compared to what it is now. CS also requires a ton of effort to become good at; its just a completely different form of gameplay. Thats why people love CS, too.
Keep in mind that, yes, great fades can get huge ratios, but with evenly skilled teams (so one great marine as well, or just a few good players on both sides), and maybe a shotgun or two (e.g. adequate material counters to higher life forms), fades wont get nearly as high. Just like how a few great marines can dominate an entire team of aliens, just slightly lacking the skill required to counter them.
Keep in mind again, that you can generally only get one fade for the first while. If you get more, you might be belating the second hive. A lot rests on the shoulders of the early fade. Its a goddamn responsibility. New players quickly realize (hopefully with a team that wont yell at them too much), that it will take months of late-game fade training to be confident enough to attempt the early fade. And there's no real trick to it, you just gotta know your hud_fastswitch 1 (or +movement these days, yeesh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), and be <i>fast</i>. Its a purely legitimate skill in its own right.
And if you want to make the game more appealing to new players? Give them atmosphere. Ambience. Remember the feeling of running around the old Bast, when you were new to NS? (its still there, though i miss the vents). Or even Agora, which i thought was one of the most fun maps to explore. The ninja route through the vents (unnamed -> Pit -> siege loc rafters -> cargo) to Cargo hive... just awesome.
Thats what new players want. I have a buddy, started up recently bud mostly plays on Marine Trainers. I keep begging him to come to a real server, but he just enjoys the skill level. Its been a little while, and he thinks hes just about ready to start really pubbing and especially commanding. If you've ever put on the Bot filter, you can see that there are just tons of bot trainer servers, and they're fairly filled (with noobs, but still, filled).
Basically, i'm saying to keep the high level of gameplay and its necessary sidekick, high learning curve. Put serious effort into the <i>experience</i>, (which NS has done very well for a long time), and people will always enjoy it... if they know about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1602566:date=Jan 29 2007, 07:11 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 29 2007, 07:11 AM) [snapback]1602566[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <u>Don't dumb down NS, please <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah yes, "dumb down". Haven't seen any term in game design open to so much interpretation.
Usually this is just a matter of "omg twitch > all"
However the ideal approach I'd like to see would be tactical and strategic diversity.
Try to make it so that there's a large ammount of options to choose from. Multiple ways to complete an objective.
Then balance things such that near every piece of equipment/armortype has tactical signifigance.
Rule of thumb would essentially be balancing flexibility versus effectiveness. Highly effective? Weak flexibility. Specialized. Highly flexible? Weak effectiveness. Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None etc.
Often, you get the 'AWPs' of the game which break that mold Which are both supremely flexible, and effective. Thats actually the type of thing I'd like to see avoided.
Being new and not knowing what you're doing applies to everything, Bananaman. I start a new job and even with previous experience it will still have a learning curve. There are a number of difficulties with NS but they're all very simple.
1) The difference between CS and NS is that I can join a CS server as an idiot and run around and kill stuff because everything has the same HP as me; join a NS server and run around and you're going to die to fades as a lone LMG; that's not a learning curve, that's a gameplay dynamic. Newer plays become frustated because without the support of some skilled players there is nothing they can do versus higher lifeforms.
2) NS isn't just marine fun. Whilst not a massive learning curve in itself -as evident by the number of pub nub skulks who score frags- it does take some time to adjust your mind to a new style of play. It's hardly rocket science however to establish that with melee units you don't run down long corridors. It is however this difference in gameplay that is a huge attraction to players, it offers a very unique experience.
3) Public NS requires a level of team play because you cannot just win by fragging, there is another element to NS with the res war which requires team participation. It is however this team reliant aspect of the game that again attracts so many people. New people struggle to grasp that they cannot just run around and get guns and spend their res how they see fit. This isn't CS, you can't just buy what gun you want you have to work as a team, this means sometimes dropping RTs, chambers, hives as well as fading. However given the importance of a fades role a new player should accept that there are better times to learn than by ######ing away 50 res. Combat? Simply loading a map and learning to blink properly? Situations where your actions do it impede your team.
4) Finally, some players are just dumb. These are the players who weren't cut out for FPS games and to whom simple things do not apply. A lovely an example is the straight line skulk: The player doesn't even think to jump to present a more difficult target, he's quite happy to just run at you. These players are just stupid, the learning curve here is due to their ineptitude and inability to grasp basic FPS skills, not NS as a game.
Even all added together though this isn't a massive learning curve. The game is deep and complex but to understand the basics isn't too difficult, what NS offers is a higher level of play for more experienced players to avoid the game becoming dull and tiresome. So you understand theres a res war? Learn to fight it effectively? Learn how to master these classes? Learn to command? - and within all of them is an infinite number of new skills to learn. Whilst part of a learning curve it is not essential for strictly public players to have that level of understanding of the game providing they can grasp the very basic concepts and aren't totally brain dead.
It is often peoples arrogance that prevents them from improving, or the servers they play on. Take this F O X guy who plays on VH2, he has a solid grasp of commanding and is clearly better than most who play there yet he can't take criticism and if his team loses it's his marines fault, not the decisions he made from the CC. By simply not assuming he was the best and spending 5 minutes talking to me about commanding theory he could become a very competant public commander with potential for clan play. Another great example of progression is Sherpa, before he joined nL he was a joke comm who couldn't win 1/13 marine rounds, now he comms the best NS team and is considered a top commander. By playing with better players he increases his knowledge and understanding but also his ability to execute plans. YO clanners who idolise whoever the hell it is they now idolise just morbidly skew their perspective of NS and assume they have reached the apex of NS when so much more of exactly what they want awaits. They want teamplay and think because 3 out of 9 use a microphone and co-ordinate themselves they've achieved it. So you can see players attitudes and surrounding have a massive effect on their ability to improve.
Stop wasting your breath Ben - Smooth, grey and banana just like trolling every NS topic they see. Instead of playing the game to get better at it they improve their trolling skills on the NS forums.
Hey, I have an idea. Spend as much time playing NS as you do grieving on the forums and maybe there is some slight chance that you will get better at this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1602646:date=Jan 29 2007, 10:33 AM:name=Hassaan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hassaan @ Jan 29 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]1602646[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Stop wasting your breath Ben - Smooth, grey and banana just like trolling every NS topic they see. Instead of <b>playing the game to get better</b> at it they improve their trolling skills on the NS forums.
Hey, I have an idea. Spend as much time playing NS as you do grieving on the forums and maybe there is some slight chance that you will <b>get better at this game</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Behold my powers of prediction!
Stones, atmosphere is not going to make the game playable. Look at bast. Atmosphere? FRIGGIN OOZES IT. Playability? Plays like potato. Shooting at skulks in near-pitch-black hallways is only fun for so long. If we were so anal about atmosphere, we wouldn't tone up gamma, mute music or change our rates.
What you have in CS are slow-moving players that just aim and control fire. Then you go to NS where you need to marine dodge, aim at fast-moving players that have models the size of HL boxes and so on. I think there's a quite a bit of jump here.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>playing the game to get better = get better at this game</b> <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
this game is not as popular as cs for reason. thats what im saying. why? who knows, maybe its learning curve, maybe its something else. if people want the game to be popular then it has to change. do you or the devs want it to change? no? well then you are stuck with what you have, and i understand that you may like it that way.
id personally like to see more people play and see less of a requirement to feel good when you play the game. thats why i post. what about you?
<!--quoteo(post=1602809:date=Jan 30 2007, 04:59 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Jan 30 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]1602809[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS needs more players and making the game easier will solve the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns will always be too difficult for kids that have trouble controlling even their own ejaculations. ideal new nsplayers are seasoned fps gamers that can take the jump from whatever game to ns and start playing at a high level immediately. its a shame every public server gives a disgusting, deformed image of natural selection to new nsplayers
Comments
You were calculating at HL = $50, but the price dropped throughout the lifetime of NS.
But a solid $1 million could be quite possible, which is still a lot <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> .
Glad I could help with the survey and good luck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
C) Even most really good CS players can't shoot a lerk flying in random directions (at least @ the LAN centers I've been to. lol. Maybe CAL-I CS players can..but..it does take some skill (or toggle, COUGH*dante*COUGH). LOL haha. j/k dante <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
<b>Seriously though, I think 1st day playing has a good logical point. What if the aliens had a way to 'research' extra bonus things on top of dropping res-hungry chambers? That'd be pretty cool. </b>
And...a marine would get faster @ reloading or...running...or could jump higher or whatever when he got a triple kill...or 5 kills in a row, or 10....etc etc. It'd be more of an incentive not to just $#%#'ing run @ good peeps. There'd be consequences other than just dying and giving away field position. But that might be a bit..unbalanced. If a marine went 20-0.....that'd be bad if it was ....unbalanced at all. LOL
Now please, can we get back to discussing the survey?
I really liked the idea of a survey but members should receive a mail pointing to it. I only knew there was a forum because of a post in a NS related forum (not hits one).
I can agree with the 43% that play the game from the beggining but like me, only assume that because they have been playing for a long time. Most of the players on the server I play on, are old school players.
Make a new survey and use your user mailing list to reach players. Then cap it to about 5000 and you're done.
i realy wanted a NS:S (i know, just me and my hand want it)... The game is good already... changes should be only for balance and, of course, graphics...
anyway, you managed to use the best of HL1 engine... try do it with source engine too...
Some food for thought when considering a sequel:
<a href="http://actionvault.ign.com/features/interviews/tribes2.shtml" target="_blank">http://actionvault.ign.com/features/interviews/tribes2.shtml</a>
One key issue I can remember about T2 on release:
1. It lacked the connection from the original community due to it's differences.
2. Got canceled due to low sales.
3. It eventually became better with "Classic" mode, and old school maps,
after being rehauled by GarageGames, but that was too little too late.
Tribes 3?
Got canceled before they even put out the first multiplayer patch.
But it sure did have a lot of new things and improvements.
Hell, it even had an MTV Music video and a full blown single player mode.
I liked the mention of:
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tribes 2 didn't get cancelled due to low sales, it was cancelled because Sierra pushed it out before it was finished (too many crashes/patches). I loved the game though, was worthy of being a sequal.
Tribes 3 (Vengeance) was a joke - Low budget, made by people who didn't understand or "get" the game, and was really dumbed down and featureless.
Tribes 2 didn't get cancelled due to low sales, it was cancelled because Sierra pushed it out before it was finished (too many crashes/patches). I loved the game though, was worthy of being a sequal.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, well either way, the community transition sucked.
_
One thing to take notice what they did right though,
Largely for the "new" and "improved" elements.
They weren't *instead* of classic content.
They were in addition to it.
If they were going to make a Tribes minus the Disc Launcher, Skiing, and Chaingun.
They game would feel rather hollow.
And in this blog Flayara mentions NS2 should only maintain a mere third of it's original content.
I just can't see that going over well.
It's basically forfieting what they've built up,
in favor of going back to the drawing board,
and praying it they can achieve the same calibre of fine tuned gameplay.
One thing you learn about sequels is that the community is much less tolerant of the game's flaws.
Usually expecting something equal or better than the original at Day 1.
Source port would easily deliver that.
Redesigning nearly the whole game has a strong chance not to.
...
I still suck at NS. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Sometimes, I'll do well, run k/d ratios of 1.0-1.2. Those days are over. Not only did I fail to really grasp how to deal with the various alien lifeforms, and I'm only smart enough to know to build crap, but now that I've got tremors, and a bad mouse, I can't even kill things. An in depth walkthrough would be quite sexy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
This,
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of these results didn't surprise me, but "longer games" sure did. I think the bigger audience (ie, older audience, which I am) doesn't have the free time to enjoy longer games so that is my bias there. Most of our audience has 40-120 minutes to spend when they sit down to play. In contrast, most "casual" players probably have 10-15 minutes to play a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can be easily explained by this,
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Most respondents play for the teamplay</b>
...not "strategy", "commanding", "ambience" or "setting", but for "teamplay". "RTS/strategy" was close behind though I forgot to put in "action" as a choice so that might've changed the results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shorter game provides the player with more opportunity to begin the game and end the game (win/lose). But, if the majority are playing for teamwork as opposed to winning or losing then longer games would be ideal. Speaking for myself, the one and only thing that keeps pushing me away from NS is the lack of teamwork. It's great that there are players out there who can wipe an entire alien team with their LMG but that does nothing for my enjoyment of the game.
As pointed out earlier (by people who pay way more attention to this stuff than me-whew), NS is generally about gaining and holding territory in a map. Many of the early NS games were insanely long. I remember leaving a game on a Saturday morning after playing for a couple of hours and returning later that evening to the same game! But, did it matter to me? No. Why? Because winning and losing means little more than switching teams and/or playing on a new map.
Don't take this as meaning I want more rewards for winners or anything like that, I just want to point out that the time spent in-game is more precious to players like me who don't have enough extra time to spend online. Winning as fast as possible just means I have to sit and wait for a map to load and then listen to 10 marines explain why they're smarter than anyone else but they won't command or how every alien needs resource nodes but they're the "early lerk".
It's long been known that you can only fix the game, not the players. I just want NS and NS2 to be fun again.
if you have a tightly-knit team you dont even need all of you sitting on irc waiting for a scrim, just get someone to call you if they need a player and you happen to have spare time (unless you already spend all your spare time on the computer).
I still have an absolute blast playing NS. I did the competitive scene for awhile and might get back into it, but pubs are still my mainstay. Obviously there are times where the rounds are pretty pathetic or stupidly stacked, but I find that those rounds greatly decrease as you familiarize yourself with a certain server. I used to hate Guns, but then my home server died and i got Donator on guns. Its been months now, and i know most of the players. As such, I know how to get teamwork out of them, and how to balance the initial stacking, much like they do with me.
If you guys are having such horrible games, maybe you have the wrong attitude, or the wrong approach. But the underlying game mechanics are not to blame whatsoever.
I don't like the gap between the competitive and pub games as of now.
You have these uber 43-3 fades, then you have the pub fade who dies in 3 seconds because he lost acceleration when he hit the wall (3.2 ahem).
Then when someone says perhaps make the game easier, people scream, YOO NEEDS TO GET BETTAR AT IT on the forums.
If you really want fast-paced games, there's combat people. NS should be about strategy and strategy means thinking, which doesn't mean it'll be fast.
But then again, we could make the game harder so that clanners will dominate pub games, which is 99% of NS, yet gets appropiately 1% of the attention.
maybe a new player wil play for a day, see how hard the game is because you die so fast, and quit.
ns requires a big amount of effort to become good at.
Otherwise, it would be a hollow game compared to what it is now. CS also requires a ton of effort to become good at; its just a completely different form of gameplay. Thats why people love CS, too.
Keep in mind that, yes, great fades can get huge ratios, but with evenly skilled teams (so one great marine as well, or just a few good players on both sides), and maybe a shotgun or two (e.g. adequate material counters to higher life forms), fades wont get nearly as high. Just like how a few great marines can dominate an entire team of aliens, just slightly lacking the skill required to counter them.
Keep in mind again, that you can generally only get one fade for the first while. If you get more, you might be belating the second hive. A lot rests on the shoulders of the early fade. Its a goddamn responsibility. New players quickly realize (hopefully with a team that wont yell at them too much), that it will take months of late-game fade training to be confident enough to attempt the early fade. And there's no real trick to it, you just gotta know your hud_fastswitch 1 (or +movement these days, yeesh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), and be <i>fast</i>. Its a purely legitimate skill in its own right.
<u>Don't dumb down NS, please <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /></u>
And if you want to make the game more appealing to new players? Give them atmosphere. Ambience. Remember the feeling of running around the old Bast, when you were new to NS? (its still there, though i miss the vents). Or even Agora, which i thought was one of the most fun maps to explore. The ninja route through the vents (unnamed -> Pit -> siege loc rafters -> cargo) to Cargo hive... just awesome.
Thats what new players want. I have a buddy, started up recently bud mostly plays on Marine Trainers. I keep begging him to come to a real server, but he just enjoys the skill level. Its been a little while, and he thinks hes just about ready to start really pubbing and especially commanding. If you've ever put on the Bot filter, you can see that there are just tons of bot trainer servers, and they're fairly filled (with noobs, but still, filled).
Basically, i'm saying to keep the high level of gameplay and its necessary sidekick, high learning curve. Put serious effort into the <i>experience</i>, (which NS has done very well for a long time), and people will always enjoy it... if they know about it.
Another bit of a rant on my part
<u>Don't dumb down NS, please <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, "dumb down".
Haven't seen any term in game design open to so much interpretation.
Usually this is just a matter of "omg twitch > all"
However the ideal approach I'd like to see would be tactical and strategic diversity.
Try to make it so that there's a large ammount of options to choose from.
Multiple ways to complete an objective.
Then balance things such that near every piece of equipment/armortype has tactical signifigance.
Rule of thumb would essentially be balancing flexibility versus effectiveness.
Highly effective? Weak flexibility. Specialized.
Highly flexible? Weak effectiveness. Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None
etc.
Often, you get the 'AWPs' of the game which break that mold
Which are both supremely flexible, and effective.
Thats actually the type of thing I'd like to see avoided.
1) The difference between CS and NS is that I can join a CS server as an idiot and run around and kill stuff because everything has the same HP as me; join a NS server and run around and you're going to die to fades as a lone LMG; that's not a learning curve, that's a gameplay dynamic. Newer plays become frustated because without the support of some skilled players there is nothing they can do versus higher lifeforms.
2) NS isn't just marine fun. Whilst not a massive learning curve in itself -as evident by the number of pub nub skulks who score frags- it does take some time to adjust your mind to a new style of play. It's hardly rocket science however to establish that with melee units you don't run down long corridors. It is however this difference in gameplay that is a huge attraction to players, it offers a very unique experience.
3) Public NS requires a level of team play because you cannot just win by fragging, there is another element to NS with the res war which requires team participation. It is however this team reliant aspect of the game that again attracts so many people. New people struggle to grasp that they cannot just run around and get guns and spend their res how they see fit. This isn't CS, you can't just buy what gun you want you have to work as a team, this means sometimes dropping RTs, chambers, hives as well as fading. However given the importance of a fades role a new player should accept that there are better times to learn than by ######ing away 50 res. Combat? Simply loading a map and learning to blink properly? Situations where your actions do it impede your team.
4) Finally, some players are just dumb. These are the players who weren't cut out for FPS games and to whom simple things do not apply. A lovely an example is the straight line skulk: The player doesn't even think to jump to present a more difficult target, he's quite happy to just run at you. These players are just stupid, the learning curve here is due to their ineptitude and inability to grasp basic FPS skills, not NS as a game.
Even all added together though this isn't a massive learning curve. The game is deep and complex but to understand the basics isn't too difficult, what NS offers is a higher level of play for more experienced players to avoid the game becoming dull and tiresome. So you understand theres a res war? Learn to fight it effectively? Learn how to master these classes? Learn to command? - and within all of them is an infinite number of new skills to learn. Whilst part of a learning curve it is not essential for strictly public players to have that level of understanding of the game providing they can grasp the very basic concepts and aren't totally brain dead.
It is often peoples arrogance that prevents them from improving, or the servers they play on. Take this F O X guy who plays on VH2, he has a solid grasp of commanding and is clearly better than most who play there yet he can't take criticism and if his team loses it's his marines fault, not the decisions he made from the CC. By simply not assuming he was the best and spending 5 minutes talking to me about commanding theory he could become a very competant public commander with potential for clan play. Another great example of progression is Sherpa, before he joined nL he was a joke comm who couldn't win 1/13 marine rounds, now he comms the best NS team and is considered a top commander. By playing with better players he increases his knowledge and understanding but also his ability to execute plans. YO clanners who idolise whoever the hell it is they now idolise just morbidly skew their perspective of NS and assume they have reached the apex of NS when so much more of exactly what they want awaits. They want teamplay and think because 3 out of 9 use a microphone and co-ordinate themselves they've achieved it. So you can see players attitudes and surrounding have a massive effect on their ability to improve.
Hey, I have an idea. Spend as much time playing NS as you do grieving on the forums and maybe there is some slight chance that you will get better at this game.
Stop wasting your breath Ben - Smooth, grey and banana just like trolling every NS topic they see. Instead of <b>playing the game to get better</b> at it they improve their trolling skills on the NS forums.
Hey, I have an idea. Spend as much time playing NS as you do grieving on the forums and maybe there is some slight chance that you will <b>get better at this game</b>.
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Behold my powers of prediction!
Stones, atmosphere is not going to make the game playable. Look at bast. Atmosphere? FRIGGIN OOZES IT. Playability? Plays like potato. Shooting at skulks in near-pitch-black hallways is only fun for so long. If we were so anal about atmosphere, we wouldn't tone up gamma, mute music or change our rates.
What you have in CS are slow-moving players that just aim and control fire. Then you go to NS where you need to marine dodge, aim at fast-moving players that have models the size of HL boxes and so on. I think there's a quite a bit of jump here.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>playing the game to get better = get better at this game</b>
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id personally like to see more people play and see less of a requirement to feel good when you play the game. thats why i post. what about you?
NS needs more players and making the game easier will solve the problem.
NS needs more players and making the game easier will solve the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns will always be too difficult for kids that have trouble controlling even their own ejaculations. ideal new nsplayers are seasoned fps gamers that can take the jump from whatever game to ns and start playing at a high level immediately. its a shame every public server gives a disgusting, deformed image of natural selection to new nsplayers