Drop Weapons Before Getting Ha/jps
Kobayashi
Join Date: 2003-07-05 Member: 17956Members
Join Date: 2003-07-05 Member: 17956Members
<div class="IPBDescription">weapons do so much more...</div> I don't see why a Com will go drop the proto, then tech HA, when Fades and the guy who res whor*d for Onos are running around teh map.
that's 80 res which could've gotten you 4 HMGs and a GL. While the marines are trying to fend them off with lmgs, and failing.
They get HA maybe a minute earlier, but lose 2-3 rts and associated buildings, and can only drop maybe 2-3 full suits of HA/HMG/Welder when it finished researching. Which won't stop the fades and onos. Even then then might save teh day if they forget about the HA and just drop HMGs, but they don't.
It doesn't make sense to me why heavy weapons are only given to HA. To me, it's always been teh opposite. HA only if you have a heavy weapon. In fact, weapons can be transferred if the guy dies, but HA can't.
You know all those end-games? where the aliens have everything but MS? You notice how marines can hold an amazing amount of time when they all have HMGs and GLs? even though spores and teh occasional fade come in and whack a guy? That's just a common example of how useful heavy weapons are.
So hand out some heavy weapons before teching. or your marines will be seriously outclassed in teh mid-game.
Edit:: clarification
that's 80 res which could've gotten you 4 HMGs and a GL. While the marines are trying to fend them off with lmgs, and failing.
They get HA maybe a minute earlier, but lose 2-3 rts and associated buildings, and can only drop maybe 2-3 full suits of HA/HMG/Welder when it finished researching. Which won't stop the fades and onos. Even then then might save teh day if they forget about the HA and just drop HMGs, but they don't.
It doesn't make sense to me why heavy weapons are only given to HA. To me, it's always been teh opposite. HA only if you have a heavy weapon. In fact, weapons can be transferred if the guy dies, but HA can't.
You know all those end-games? where the aliens have everything but MS? You notice how marines can hold an amazing amount of time when they all have HMGs and GLs? even though spores and teh occasional fade come in and whack a guy? That's just a common example of how useful heavy weapons are.
So hand out some heavy weapons before teching. or your marines will be seriously outclassed in teh mid-game.
Edit:: clarification
Comments
Make sure you do have armor upgrades from the armslab before doing this. Handing out guns without at least having armor 1 is a big waste. However, a lot better is having armor 2 or 3 combined with some welders. Welders are 5 res each, very cheap.
You don't need HAs to kill the hive with shotguns + catpacks...
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
After the big targets are dead, you can still run around plastering skulks for quite a while.
Until you face something that requires more firepower, concentrate your resources on getting arms lab upgrades. They are the best long-term invenstment, and can only be beat when immediate threats call for other spending (like sieging a hive, an onos eating your rts, etc.).
Its a bit trickier in a train, since the law of averages dictates some of the squad will cluster the weapon guy in order to get the gun when he dies - this makes them fodder for spores, umbra, and stomp. Xeno too, at the higher levels. Also, in train you need to keep moving, thus there's a chance of the guns getting left behind.
Fundamentally however, it IS true that you get more use out of the guns than the armour, but also consider that an Onos can snaffle an HMGer and dump his corpse in a random location, along with weapons.
Edit - some more points
Dropping big guns puts you in a good position while the enemy is recovering from the loss of fades and onos.
Second, I've won games on a pure unupgraded LMG rush to hives, covered by meds and ammo spam alone. So I put a lot more faith in shotties and shooting than I do in HA. IMHO HA is just a safety net for when you are right in a hive and are being rushed every second by aliens - its just not necessary early game when you're not in a hive.
I'd rather have six marines with light machine guns fighting than one or two marines with heavy machine guns.
Kind of hard for your first round, but after that you should know which players can pull their weight, and which ones are just showboaters or griefers.
If everyone spams 'can i have a shirtgun?', I'll just play aliens next game...
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick?
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't expect a unanimous answer to this. The only thing people agree on is getting A1 first, and there are still some stubborn people that don't agree with that.
If I see an ono or fade I will drop 2-3 good players some weapons and tell them to chase down the alien. With some medspam if needed problem solved. If there are no aliens who are that much of a threat then I just wait till HA to insure victory.
Without HA there is a chance for rape. In groups a noob will block good players and with no HA s good skulk can just rip through the marines and kill several of them or a lerk can spore/umbra on them.
How do you get to 3/3 HA with that team to begin with?
Not so much a problem on good servers... but then on those servers we tend to be zipping around with JPs.
Yes, HA is good, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that a marine with no HA but carrying an HMG >> an HA marine with an lmg.
and a group of 6 marines with HMG/GL >> 2-3 marines with HA/HMG/Welder
Mid game heavy weapons are the way why I'm usually teching a1-a2-w1-a3 on pubs nowadays. 4-5 bite 3-4 swipe rines become a **** to kill when they wield heavy weapons even without ha, and I'd rather have a few lvl0-1 HMGs in the field then tons of lvl2-3 lmgs. Armor 3 = greedy comm's HA, fade's worst nightmare <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can someone confirm this? Up until this day I always go in the A1/W1-W3 order, then worry about the rest of armor upgrades. Does it really pay off to get all the armor upgrades first or do the lvl 3 weapons with A1 do the trick? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very few people would agree with that. These days it's usually A1/W1/W2/W3/A2/A3, or A1/W1/A2/W2/W3/A3. MAYBE they'll get the first two armor upgrades first, but it's not often seen. The big difference in 3.0 is that armor 2 now gives 4 skulk bites, so rushing to armor 2 has a bit of merit. However a lack of weapon upgrades generally leads to fades running rampant all over the map. I'd only rush armor if you have enough res to drop the entire team shotties and welders.
Don't expect a unanimous answer to this. The only thing people agree on is getting A1 first, and there are still some stubborn people that don't agree with that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sif A1 first - maybe on a pub server where you have n00bs that can't aim, but definitely not in wars.
Marines usually have 2-3 seconds to shoot a skulk before he comes in range, if they are careful and don't get ambushed. In this time they could almost empty an LMG clip into the skulk. Assuming worst case scenario (ie. it doesn't kill it), the marine then has his pistol ammo followed by a reload before he can fire off another LMG clip (assuming he can avoid the bites). Level 1 armor will give you about a half a second more lifespan (one more bite) which is not enough time to reload.
Getting W1 first means that assuming the marine gets the same amount of bullets in, chances are the skulk will be dead and hopefully the marine took it out before it came in range of bite (worst case scenario, reen only took one bite).
If you notice early on that the aliens went sensory for first chamber, then definitely get A1 first, or your team will be screwed. Personally though I think its kinda silly to get A1 first - getting W1 first means you're that much closer to W2 when the fades come. Drop a couple shotties and watch those fades fall.
As a rule I generally go W1/W2/A1/W3/A2/A3, with A3 being optional as by that stage of the game the winner is pretty much already decided. This is just my general rule of thumb tho.
--Samah
As Samah quoting me above shows, there are still stubborn people that don't realize that A1 first is the best way to go.
I personally prefer W1 first, so that's just a personal choice rather than stubbornness.
If however I agreed with you and was arguing W1 for the sake of irking you, THAT would be stubborn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fortunately I'm not that kinda guy <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
armor2 before weapon1 for win!
... Unless you suspect someones saving for fade, as well as getting a lot of rfk. Armor2 can give a marine 4 skulk bites, unless hes clever and parasites a lot. And even then, you can drop a medpack after a few bites, and he will still have armor1 value. Try it, honestly, if the marines are any good, the skulks will have MAJOR problems killing your guys without leap.
Don't forget gun upgrade 1 is USELESS against skulks..
Also armor upgrade restores armor on players in field, which is great if you have elite rines guarding certain location.
That is no longer the case in 3.0. Now, when an armor upgrade completes, a marine will keep the same percentage of his maximum armor that he had before the upgrade.