ok, i just spotted this thread, and i just wanna say what i believe.....
First of all, atheism, its both, a religion and a point of view. Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them, or they just simply saw that they couldn´t believe into somthing that they don´t know if it exists. I don´t know if god exists, but i just know that being right now in a world full of life/death joy/suffer, being surrounded right now by million of parasites, viruses and other nasty but beautifull stuff its just a miracle or the bigest coincidence evar.....
In my young life, i´ve suffered much and this lead me to go away from god because i feel so angry about the stuff that happens, so much evil, so much death and destruction, so much corruption in this perfect world, and nobody does anything to change it. (i know ppl is trying to, but i don´t see any changes...... yet) I´ve seen my beloved ones die in front of my eyes, and in the bottom of my heart i know eternal life doesn´t exists and i just feel so angry at everything, sometimes i just can´t take it, life its a precious treasure, and we shall take care of it. Right now, i dont really know if god exists or not, and i don´t really care, because i have my own beliefs and ideals, and they are based in truth, compassion and honor.....
It doesn´t really matters if you are a christian, atheist, jewish,islamic, we all believe in the same good ideals that are out there, and we all know that we are in a strange world, surrounded by other ppl that is as lost as we are, and we are an evil being, because we have freewill.......
After reading through all those posts that is a lot if you didn’t know <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> Even thought the discussion has gone off gaming and religion
I will say how ever this People say religion is good or have no place in society today etc. But really it is up to the individual person to decide what is best for them some people needs it for many reasons not just based on their faith alone knowingly or not.
For those who say people have died because of religion is not entirely correct it is the people who use religion as an excuse to mold it around make right or hide to the fact it is wrong. Crusades prime example villages plundered that aren’t even related to the crusades the terrost today uses it as an excuse “Jihad” I believe is the name of the war called by them
Josiah, Ive had talked to many vicars, priests etc for hours at a time. Ive stayed round a vicars house twice and helped plan a service with another one. In fact Ive even watched a porn movie round a vicars house (thats another story for another time ). We always end up disagreeing. I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is no proof, you just believe! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with what you say, what I was trying to get at is people who say that religion is wrong based soley on their ignorance and unwillingness to listen.
Personally, I don't mind what you believe but I take objection to the fact that people will say that Christainity is wrong because of Old Testament logic or the behaviour of an institution.
It is true The Borgia Popes were the leaders of the Catholic Church. People disagreed with the way the Catholic Church behaved and its interpretation of the Bible, hence the Reformation. That doesn't mean that I feel that Pope John Paul II is an awful Pope and is just like the Borgia Popes.
It is true that before the English Civil War "The Divine Right of Rule", the idea that the king was appointed by God and therefore should not be challenged and be allowed to do what he wanted, people disagreed and hence the Commonwealth of England was formed. It doesn't mean that I feel that the Queen should be overthrown.
It is true that in America slavery was permitted by law, people disagreed, hence one of the main causes of American Civil War (it wasn't the only reason, I know that, please don't argue about it). It doesn't mean I think that the American government now supports slavery and should be got rid of.
It is true that Hitler was a nasty piece of work and he ruled Germany, that doesn't mean that I feel that the German government should be overthrown.
So why is it that people insist on organised Christianity being got rid of because of things in its past?
Because the past things of the bible, are the pillars of the religion, but it shouldn´t be overthrown because of that....... Anyways i think that each person must judge what´s better for them, believing or not believing...... Its up to you, just remember this will change the way you see the world
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Battousai^^x said: Because the past things of the bible, are the pillars of the religion, but it shouldn´t be overthrown because of that.......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pillars of Christianity are the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commandments, at least that's the way I feel.
And what of the past things of the Bible? I don't understand what you mean by that, the history parts of it or what?
In all my conversations with people of faith I notice one thing, it always seems they try to say atheism is a religion. And I say no, it is not. It may be similar but in the end there really is no exact word for atheism so it is grouped with the closest thing, religion. Atheism is atheism, not a religion. If you look at history, you will see the amount of deaths religion has caused, people still die every day because of religion. Does anyone find something odd about that? And what kind of God would create a civilization in which less than half of the world believe in him? And if you say that all religions are really just worshipping the same god in different ways then why would they kill eachother about it? I always hear people speak of the charioty of religion and I wonder how many fewer people would be homeless or poor or starving if the money that went to building churches went to usefull causes. Many christians try to look away from the parts of the bible which disturb them, like the parts where god destroys entire towns or orders his followers to do so in his name. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?(Epicurus) Normally I prefer to create my own quotes but this one covers my view of evil and god very well.
Legion: You mentioned that once we were apart of God but chose to Sin and no longer are. Or something to that affect anyway.
That's according to the Bible. Of which I can not really put much faith in due to contradictions and the mere fact that hundreds of MEN (who, according to the bible itself are imperfect) wrote it- thereby flawed. But who can say exactly what parts are true and which are not?
To Further explain my beliefs: We live in a relative world. You cannot have up if you do not have down. We are a line of infinite length divided in the middle- with what is perceived as good on one end, and evil on the other. But how can infinity have a middle?
Man does not appear to have the ability to understand something that does not have an opposite. Which is how the Devil was born. Not a corrupt angel (angels do not have free will after all), but man created the Devil in their minds as Evil, so that God could be better understood as Good. But God is neither. God is Both.
I believe Jesus of Nazerith was very real, and his teachings are to be followed. I'm a little shakey on the specifics the Bible gives of his story- but here is what I perceive. It'll likely differ to the Bible's truth.
Jesus came to the understanding that he was the "Son of God." He also knew that he was no different from the rest of the human race. In his teachings he continually said that all of the miracles he performed could be done by anyone. Of course, no one believed him- he was after all the Son of God. Eventually (if I am not mistaken) the Apostles also performed such miracles- but as recorded by the Bible it was "done through Jesus." I do not think so. I think he simply presented them with the fact that they COULD, and so they believed that they could and did. When Jesus died.. they lost that faith.
/me takes a breath Harum. On a side note: how many of you knew that Angels have 3 sets of wings? That's right according to the bible, angels have 6 wings. Pretty cool huh?
It is funny when people of faith try to degrade atheism by simply saying it was caused by something bad happening in that persons life, they act almost like it is depression.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bronto+Oct. 26 2002,23:08--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bronto @ Oct. 26 2002,23:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also like to say that atheism is actually a relegion. It takes just as much faith to beleive in something that can be "proven" by scientific theories as it does to beleive in a God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, it takes little to no faith at all. At least for me. If a scientist makes a declaration as to how he believes the world works, he or she is expected to back his or her contention up with logic and data that can be reproduced. Contending scientists are driven to find the errors in your work, if only to make a name for themselves. I can have faith that gravity exists, or I can drop a ball. I can have faith that light if affected by gravity, or I can observe the recorded shifts of starlight as they pass near the sun. It takes faith to belive that there is no God, as there is little evidence either way, but it takes no evidence to accept proof in a scientific theory. Science welcomes anyone interested to come join our ranks, learn what you can, and question all of it. We will only support that which stands up to questioning.
Too many Christians I know consider questioning the Bible and Christianity as a disloyal lack of faith. Even today, sadly.
In fact, I know only two Christians who are willing to allow me to question their faith in their presence. And I envy their faith.
For the record, I'm not atheist. Being atheist would imply that you have undisputable evidence (or faith) that God does not exist. I'm agnostic. Something begat the universe, or evidence of a Big Bang wouldn't exist. On the other hand, countless experiemnts have shown that organic molecules can form spontaneously, and reproduce and evolve on their own. Whether God used science to begin this world is the question, now.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith. -- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history." -- Robert A. Heinlein
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein
"One man's religion is another man's belly laugh." -- Robert A. Heinlein
Hey elitebear <!--QuoteBegin--Battousai^^x+Oct. 27 2002,06<!--emo&:0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Battousai^^x @ Oct. 27 2002,06<!--emo&<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why can I never get my quotes to look right? I press the quote button then press it again to close the quote and it always comes out screwed up.
Sorry I think I worded that wrong H'BNayr, I was trying to go twards the atheism part, not the scientific. So yes, you are right (In my views) that you need faith to beleive that there is a God, or not one at all. Thanks for pointing that out.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Oct. 27 2002,16:11--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Oct. 27 2002,16:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->To Further explain my beliefs: We live in a relative world. You cannot have up if you do not have down. We are a line of infinite length divided in the middle- with what is perceived as good on one end, and evil on the other. But how can infinity have a middle?
Man does not appear to have the ability to understand something that does not have an opposite. Which is how the Devil was born. Not a corrupt angel (angels do not have free will after all), but man created the Devil in their minds as Evil, so that God could be better understood as Good. But God is neither. God is Both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting point, and theory.
You talk about contradictions within the bible. It's not an unknown concept, I've heard of them many times before, but I can never seem to locate any myself. Perhaps I am jsut not looking hard enough. Would you care to express where these contradictions take place?
Anyway, beside the point. You make an interesting case for morality, and it's application. You say that the "number line" if you will of human morality is infinite... Not true, according to my beliefs anyway.
Christian teaching stresses that God, and Jesus too, are perfect morally. What they(he, if you wanna trow the trinity into this whole mess) say and do goes is law. Does this mean that perfect is only a point? Only a speck in the neverending ribbon that is the fabric of our concience? I think not, for how perfect can one get? Can one become so benevolent and good that the point of being perfect is too far in the distance to comprehend?
I think not. I believe that there is an absolute good, and an absolute bad. There is a state of being that is absolutely blameless, and a state where one becomes the embodiment and epitome of everything that is evil and wrong. You say that humans cannot comprehend something that has no opposite... this may be true, but is it possible that such things do not exist in the first place?
Genesis 11:6 'The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.'
If it is impossible for anything to stand in the way of the combined force of human ambition/perseverance, is it really possible that we cannot comprehend something as simple as a concept?
I'll stop now, and let you get a word in edgewise, I'm sure you will want to respond.
<!--QuoteBegin--H'BNayr+Oct. 27 2002,20:42--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (H'BNayr @ Oct. 27 2002,20:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Bronto+Oct. 26 2002,23<!--emo&:0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bronto @ Oct. 26 2002,23<!--emo&<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also like to say that atheism is actually a relegion. It takes just as much faith to beleive in something that can be "proven" by scientific theories as it does to beleive in a God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, it takes little to no faith at all. At least for me. If a scientist makes a declaration as to how he believes the world works, he or she is expected to back his or her contention up with logic and data that can be reproduced. Contending scientists are driven to find the errors in your work, if only to make a name for themselves. I can have faith that gravity exists, or I can drop a ball. I can have faith that light if affected by gravity, or I can observe the recorded shifts of starlight as they pass near the sun. It takes faith to belive that there is no God, as there is little evidence either way, but it takes no evidence to accept proof in a scientific theory. Science welcomes anyone interested to come join our ranks, learn what you can, and question all of it. We will only support that which stands up to questioning.
Too many Christians I know consider questioning the Bible and Christianity as a disloyal lack of faith. Even today, sadly.
In fact, I know only two Christians who are willing to allow me to question their faith in their presence. And I envy their faith.
For the record, I'm not atheist. Being atheist would imply that you have undisputable evidence (or faith) that God does not exist. I'm agnostic. Something begat the universe, or evidence of a Big Bang wouldn't exist. On the other hand, countless experiemnts have shown that organic molecules can form spontaneously, and reproduce and evolve on their own. Whether God used science to begin this world is the question, now.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith. -- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history." -- Robert A. Heinlein
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein
"One man's religion is another man's belly laugh." -- Robert A. Heinlein<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm quite upset that you only know two people like this. I believe that a person should be able to defend his faith, if for no other reason then to grow closer with the Lord by studying his word for answers.
Maybe you should add me to that list?
EDIT: Where the <i>hell</i> do you find those quotes <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 27 2002,22:29--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 27 2002,22:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->You talk about contradictions within the bible. It's not an unknown concept, I've heard of them many times before, but I can never seem to locate any myself. Perhaps I am jsut not looking hard enough. Would you care to express where these contradictions take place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Certainly, certainly.
In this thread alone we have stated that the bible says "To love God, and God loves us." Also that the bible states to "fear god". And then some one else quoted.. ehh.. what was it now.. A perfect love throws out fear.. or something to that extent. Stating that Love abolishes fear, not promote it.
And for my favorite contradiction... Look at the first 2 chapters- Genesis 1 and 2. Read carefully. In chapter 1 it describes creation, earth sky all that then animals, then Man. In early part of Chapter two, it states that Adam was lounging around in the Garden of Eden bored, so God made animals and had Adam name them.
Did you catch it? Animals then Man. Man then Animals. You don't even have to look beyond the first two chapters. Then there's "Love thy enemy" and "Eye for an Eye". <-- check exodus, i forget exactly where.
I'm fairly confident it states somewhere that one cannot/will not be punished for the sins of another. And then we bring out the tenth plague and kill all the first born sons. Not because they were necessarily "evil", but for vengence against (Ramses wasn't it?) and his followers for ordering the same against the Jews.
I'm sure there's more I've come across that I've forgotten, but those should be enough to prove I'm not just throwing the contradiction statement around. I've heard many use it as well, and few come up with an example on the spot.
Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God.
The only thing I consider to be wrong is altering anothers life in any way they do not want. And no two people want EXACTLY the same from life. So by my way of thinking- no rule can be set without exceptions. As an example: Most would rather u not kill them- but there are a few who suffer from cancer or what have you, and wish to die and be at peace. All very controversial.
Oh hey, I didn't see anyone respond to my angels thing. Anyone know about the 6 wings? Or where to find it in the Bible? I was in a Youth Group a couple years ago and was taught this- but forgot where it mentions it. Doh.
-EDIT- "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein
I love it. It sums up my view on right/wrong so very nicely.
Okay I had to skip a lot of pages so I could get my opinion down- I only made it to page four btw <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
Way back in the town I used to live in I went to two churches, the newman center at the college and the Main church in town, both were very different. I have noticed that a lot of priests are VERY educated, some with double docerates and that when they go into school to become priests they have classes of a hard intellectual nature. Anyway where I was going was that there were two priests, Father Jim of the Newman center who was twenty five or so and Father Fox of St. Francis who was 70+, now for their own special reasons they are both special to me both being great people who I admire- and let me tell you a little about them so I can help tie to my own beliefs and apply to this thread, or hope so:
Father Jim: he was very young and open to new ideas, he even let a jahova witness into the church to discuss with the students different relegions and was a very cool guy. But in the end he found the conflictions to much to bear, the church's stance on homosexuality and such and more aiming towards the fact that he wanted to get married and have a family, it was sad seeing him go but he was probably better for it...
Father Fox:An old but HIGHLY educated person, he believed very deeply in what the church stood for and this includes all of the above mentioned things- and he is now in a type of retirement (if that is what you call it)
Now my point is that these two people came from two very different view points and I think it accuratley depicts how the times are changeing and how the oldstyle relegion is not quite what it was cracked up to be. I am catholic, I believe there is a god yes but I don't feel that some of the churches view on issues is fair, if god loves everyone and anyone without exception? Then why does he hate homosexuals? It is because of this that I now stand with a line in the sand, if you will, of where I should go.
Today the bishop came to my church and he talked about how if the ten commandments say to love everybody and everyone, how should we feel towards people like Saddam Hussain and Osama Bin Ladan, or the Sniper- but he said that there was enough hate in the world that we didn't need to be a part of it and that there is forgivness in all.
Some of what he said makes sense and some of it contradicts itself, forgivness? Iternal love? It all just stems off to what Im saying that a lot of what the bible doesn't apply, and that god could not possibly condemn us for being ourselves, its the only constant I can find in the everchanging views of relegion...
I think I lost myself in this rant but I hope it opened up something different <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is funny when people of faith try to degrade atheism <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> after you said this, i told you that no one actually said it which i realized was incorrect. then you quoted him (batt)saying this: "Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them" which you tried to use to prove me wrong. ok, ok, i was wrong, someone said it but still, to me this didnt seem to make sense because batt isnt even a man of faith so you cant what he said as an example to bolden what you said (It is funny when people of <b>faith</b> ry to degrade atheism )
thats why i said what i said, he isnt a man of faith (ill kill myself if im forced to faith again) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ehhh i shouldnt say this
Whatever. I think it's interesting though how almost all white americans become less and less spiritual with each generation, especially so with the introduction of contraversial media and video games, coupled with substence drugs like crack, pot, pcp, etc., and people who repel others from religion like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and other so-called religous moral "leaders. None of these men in my opinion are role models fit to be followed because they've all exhibited behaviour in their personal lives and said things the media that figure them as people they attempt to degredate (gays, lesbians, atheists, etc). I for one will make it a point to atleast have my kid go through sunday-school and get atleast a LITTLE religous education, as it will atleast give him some basic mental morals and personal restrictions. I won't however force him to do certain things (sports, eat foods he doesn't want to, that stuff), nor will I bar him from expressing himself and exploring things (he's got to learn on his own that drugs aren't a good thing). Should he turn into something I don't favor, like becoming g@y, I won't shun him for it, because it's the way he's going to be. I'll keep religion in my family and my life, and I'll keep gaming and service to America as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 27 2002,22:31--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 27 2002,22:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite upset that you only know two people like this. I believe that a person should be able to defend his faith, if for no other reason then to grow closer with the Lord by studying his word for answers.
Maybe you should add me to that list?
EDIT: Where the <i>hell</i> do you find those quotes <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel the same way. That is, someone should defend their faith. And if they fear questioning their faith, it is almost telling me that they fear defending their faith to themselves. And then I wonder if they really have anything spiritual to teach me.
I know other people that don't mind questioning their faith, but they all take it with a smile, and a deft verbal sidestep of the issue. I know only these two Christians, who will take my questions head-on. And sometimes, I'll admit, I'll make a comment in an attempt to get a rise of of them. And they rarely, if ever, bite back. I envy that kind of faith and dedication.
I see a few people like that online, but it doesn't usually carry the same amount of weight unless you can actually see the amount of atmosphere they're displacing. But I'll admit you've taken almost every issue head-on without flinching in your words. I'm sure that you'd be included, Legionnaired, the moment I meet you. Perhaps at some nationwide NS tourney someday.
Then again, I'm not that good at Half-life mods. Hopefully NS will be the exception...
I pick up my quotes in various places. I have notepad right there, ready with a Quicklauch icon, and I always carry a pen. About three years ago I started collecting whatever quotes that really meant something to me (although sometimes I wonder what I was thinking). Books, magazines, or the internet, wherever I might see a good quote, I copy it down. I confirm as many as I can, whether it be through a reputable source (Time magazine) or through <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google</a>.
I now have a nice-sized text document full of nifty quotes. Some I can remember, and find using a search. Sometimes it's random.
I really should organize this thing...
-Ryan!
"I quote others only the better to express myself." -- Michel de Montaigne
"When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple; take it and copy it." -- Anatole France
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Oct. 27 2002,22:52--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Oct. 27 2002,22:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh hey, I didn't see anyone respond to my angels thing. Anyone know about the 6 wings? Or where to find it in the Bible? I was in a Youth Group a couple years ago and was taught this- but forgot where it mentions it. Doh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wrote a paragraph in reply to this, then decided it was <i>too</i> off-topic, even for me. But, what the hey!
This is mentioned in Revelations, which in itself differs greatly from both the Old and New Testament. The Cherubim, or possibly the Seraphim, the highest ranking of angels, are described as appearing this way in heaven. This is the group commonly referred to as archangels, and includes, among others, Michael (with the horn that will end humanity's existence), and The Morning Star. Now Lucifer.
Although the Seraphim have also been described as appearing as bright points of light elsewhere in the Bible. Does anyone have the more/better information?
The writer of Revelations, in a vision, sees these great 6-winged angels circling God's head, as he sits upon his throne.
I sometimes wonder what it would look like to see God. And how I would express it.
Because I'm sure no words would be able to contain it.
-Ryan!
"I don't have any problems with the Lord; it's His earthly representatives who worry the hell out of me." -- Larry Flynt
"This is my commandment, that ye love one another." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, John 15:12)
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 27 2002,22:29--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 27 2002,22:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->You talk about contradictions within the bible. It's not an unknown concept, I've heard of them many times before, but I can never seem to locate any myself. Perhaps I am jsut not looking hard enough. Would you care to express where these contradictions take place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are a few between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but many of these can be attributed (some might say, brushed off) to God spending 32 years upon this mortal coil. The contradictions I have some issue with is with contradictions in the New Testament.
I can't cite these, but there was an attribute to Jesus an admonition to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. In that, there was a quote saying something similar to "I bring not peace but the sword." But in another book, Jesus is attributed with, "All those who take up the sword shall likewise perish by the sword." Not a complete contradiction, but still odd.
In Matthew One and in Luke, the fact that Jesus was to come from the like of David was foretold, but the genealogies were almost completely different. Not to mention the fact that Matthew traced 28 generations, and Luke traced 43. And both traced the lineage from David to Joseph, not from David to Mary. (Again, the concept of immaculate conception is a new idea, declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854, and yet so many people insist on arguing for it. Does the idea that Jesus was not born of God's seed lessen his teachings in the slightest?) Some might consider this "cooking the data."
And what of Jesus's promise that the Kingdom of God would come in the lifetime of some people in his audience? Some might say that he offered them eternal life when they died, provided they admitted their shortcomings, or that the Kingdom is within us all. But I imagine that he may have been meaning quite literally. His audience seems to take it so.
Contradictions do exist, and are important to note. But not a fraction as important as the teachings of love and kindness found in the book, as well.
-Ryan!
"An eye for an eye just ends up making everyone blind." -- Mahatma Ghandi
"I have nothing new to teach the world. Truth and Non-violence are as old as the hills. All I have done is to try experiments in both on as vast a scale as I could." -- Mahatma Ghandi
Kind of off-topic kind of not but here is all the angel hierarchy stuff <a href="http://web.nmsu.edu/~tomlynch/swlit.angels.html" target="_blank">Angels</a>
I contend that we are both atheists; when you understand why you don't believe in the gods of others, they you will understand why I don't believe in yours.
Comments
First of all, atheism, its both, a religion and a point of view.
Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them, or they just simply saw that they couldn´t believe into somthing that they don´t know if it exists.
I don´t know if god exists, but i just know that being right now in a world full of life/death joy/suffer, being surrounded right now by million of parasites, viruses and other nasty but beautifull stuff its just a miracle or the bigest coincidence evar.....
In my young life, i´ve suffered much and this lead me to go away from god because i feel so angry about the stuff that happens, so much evil, so much death and destruction, so much corruption in this perfect world, and nobody does anything to change it. (i know ppl is trying to, but i don´t see any changes...... yet)
I´ve seen my beloved ones die in front of my eyes, and in the bottom of my heart i know eternal life doesn´t exists and i just feel so angry at everything, sometimes i just can´t take it, life its a precious treasure, and we shall take care of it.
Right now, i dont really know if god exists or not, and i don´t really care, because i have my own beliefs and ideals, and they are based in truth, compassion and honor.....
It doesn´t really matters if you are a christian, atheist, jewish,islamic, we all believe in the same good ideals that are out there, and we all know that we are in a strange world, surrounded by other ppl that is as lost as we are, and we are an evil being, because we have freewill.......
Even thought the discussion has gone off gaming and religion
I will say how ever this
People say religion is good or have no place in society today etc.
But really it is up to the individual person to decide what is best for them some people needs it for many reasons not just based on their faith alone knowingly or not.
For those who say people have died because of religion is not entirely correct it is the people who use religion as an excuse to mold it around make right or hide to the fact it is wrong.
Crusades prime example villages plundered that aren’t even related to the crusades the terrost today uses it as an excuse “Jihad” I believe is the name of the war called by them
I’ll leave you their to think about it
Josiah, Ive had talked to many vicars, priests etc for hours at a time. Ive stayed round a vicars house twice and helped plan a service with another one. In fact Ive even watched a porn movie round a vicars house (thats another story for another time ). We always end up disagreeing. I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is no proof, you just believe!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with what you say, what I was trying to get at is people who say that religion is wrong based soley on their ignorance and unwillingness to listen.
Personally, I don't mind what you believe but I take objection to the fact that people will say that Christainity is wrong because of Old Testament logic or the behaviour of an institution.
It is true The Borgia Popes were the leaders of the Catholic Church. People disagreed with the way the Catholic Church behaved and its interpretation of the Bible, hence the Reformation. That doesn't mean that I feel that Pope John Paul II is an awful Pope and is just like the Borgia Popes.
It is true that before the English Civil War "The Divine Right of Rule", the idea that the king was appointed by God and therefore should not be challenged and be allowed to do what he wanted, people disagreed and hence the Commonwealth of England was formed. It doesn't mean that I feel that the Queen should be overthrown.
It is true that in America slavery was permitted by law, people disagreed, hence one of the main causes of American Civil War (it wasn't the only reason, I know that, please don't argue about it). It doesn't mean I think that the American government now supports slavery and should be got rid of.
It is true that Hitler was a nasty piece of work and he ruled Germany, that doesn't mean that I feel that the German government should be overthrown.
So why is it that people insist on organised Christianity being got rid of because of things in its past?
Anyways i think that each person must judge what´s better for them, believing or not believing......
Its up to you, just remember this will change the way you see the world
Because the past things of the bible, are the pillars of the religion, but it shouldn´t be overthrown because of that.......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pillars of Christianity are the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commandments, at least that's the way I feel.
And what of the past things of the Bible? I don't understand what you mean by that, the history parts of it or what?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?(Epicurus)
Normally I prefer to create my own quotes but this one covers my view of evil and god very well.
That's according to the Bible. Of which I can not really put much faith in due to contradictions and the mere fact that hundreds of MEN (who, according to the bible itself are imperfect) wrote it- thereby flawed. But who can say exactly what parts are true and which are not?
To Further explain my beliefs:
We live in a relative world. You cannot have up if you do not have down. We are a line of infinite length divided in the middle- with what is perceived as good on one end, and evil on the other. But how can infinity have a middle?
Man does not appear to have the ability to understand something that does not have an opposite. Which is how the Devil was born. Not a corrupt angel (angels do not have free will after all), but man created the Devil in their minds as Evil, so that God could be better understood as Good. But God is neither. God is Both.
I believe Jesus of Nazerith was very real, and his teachings are to be followed. I'm a little shakey on the specifics the Bible gives of his story- but here is what I perceive. It'll likely differ to the Bible's truth.
Jesus came to the understanding that he was the "Son of God." He also knew that he was no different from the rest of the human race. In his teachings he continually said that all of the miracles he performed could be done by anyone. Of course, no one believed him- he was after all the Son of God. Eventually (if I am not mistaken) the Apostles also performed such miracles- but as recorded by the Bible it was "done through Jesus." I do not think so. I think he simply presented them with the fact that they COULD, and so they believed that they could and did. When Jesus died.. they lost that faith.
/me takes a breath
Harum. On a side note: how many of you knew that Angels have 3 sets of wings? That's right according to the bible, angels have 6 wings. Pretty cool huh?
Actually, it takes little to no faith at all. At least for me. If a scientist makes a declaration as to how he believes the world works, he or she is expected to back his or her contention up with logic and data that can be reproduced. Contending scientists are driven to find the errors in your work, if only to make a name for themselves. I can have faith that gravity exists, or I can drop a ball. I can have faith that light if affected by gravity, or I can observe the recorded shifts of starlight as they pass near the sun. It takes faith to belive that there is no God, as there is little evidence either way, but it takes no evidence to accept proof in a scientific theory. Science welcomes anyone interested to come join our ranks, learn what you can, and question all of it. We will only support that which stands up to questioning.
Too many Christians I know consider questioning the Bible and Christianity as a disloyal lack of faith. Even today, sadly.
In fact, I know only two Christians who are willing to allow me to question their faith in their presence. And I envy their faith.
For the record, I'm not atheist. Being atheist would imply that you have undisputable evidence (or faith) that God does not exist. I'm agnostic. Something begat the universe, or evidence of a Big Bang wouldn't exist. On the other hand, countless experiemnts have shown that organic molecules can form spontaneously, and reproduce and evolve on their own. Whether God used science to begin this world is the question, now.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith.
-- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
"One man's religion is another man's belly laugh."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
<!--QuoteBegin--Battousai^^x+Oct. 27 2002,06<!--emo&:0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Battousai^^x @ Oct. 27 2002,06<!--emo&<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why can I never get my quotes to look right?
I press the quote button then press it again to close the quote and it always comes out screwed up.
We live in a relative world. You cannot have up if you do not have down. We are a line of infinite length divided in the middle- with what is perceived as good on one end, and evil on the other. But how can infinity have a middle?
Man does not appear to have the ability to understand something that does not have an opposite. Which is how the Devil was born. Not a corrupt angel (angels do not have free will after all), but man created the Devil in their minds as Evil, so that God could be better understood as Good. But God is neither. God is Both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting point, and theory.
You talk about contradictions within the bible. It's not an unknown concept, I've heard of them many times before, but I can never seem to locate any myself. Perhaps I am jsut not looking hard enough. Would you care to express where these contradictions take place?
Anyway, beside the point. You make an interesting case for morality, and it's application. You say that the "number line" if you will of human morality is infinite... Not true, according to my beliefs anyway.
Christian teaching stresses that God, and Jesus too, are perfect morally. What they(he, if you wanna trow the trinity into this whole mess) say and do goes is law. Does this mean that perfect is only a point? Only a speck in the neverending ribbon that is the fabric of our concience? I think not, for how perfect can one get? Can one become so benevolent and good that the point of being perfect is too far in the distance to comprehend?
I think not. I believe that there is an absolute good, and an absolute bad. There is a state of being that is absolutely blameless, and a state where one becomes the embodiment and epitome of everything that is evil and wrong. You say that humans cannot comprehend something that has no opposite... this may be true, but is it possible that such things do not exist in the first place?
Genesis 11:6 'The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.'
If it is impossible for anything to stand in the way of the combined force of human ambition/perseverance, is it really possible that we cannot comprehend something as simple as a concept?
I'll stop now, and let you get a word in edgewise, I'm sure you will want to respond.
Actually, it takes little to no faith at all. At least for me. If a scientist makes a declaration as to how he believes the world works, he or she is expected to back his or her contention up with logic and data that can be reproduced. Contending scientists are driven to find the errors in your work, if only to make a name for themselves. I can have faith that gravity exists, or I can drop a ball. I can have faith that light if affected by gravity, or I can observe the recorded shifts of starlight as they pass near the sun. It takes faith to belive that there is no God, as there is little evidence either way, but it takes no evidence to accept proof in a scientific theory. Science welcomes anyone interested to come join our ranks, learn what you can, and question all of it. We will only support that which stands up to questioning.
Too many Christians I know consider questioning the Bible and Christianity as a disloyal lack of faith. Even today, sadly.
In fact, I know only two Christians who are willing to allow me to question their faith in their presence. And I envy their faith.
For the record, I'm not atheist. Being atheist would imply that you have undisputable evidence (or faith) that God does not exist. I'm agnostic. Something begat the universe, or evidence of a Big Bang wouldn't exist. On the other hand, countless experiemnts have shown that organic molecules can form spontaneously, and reproduce and evolve on their own. Whether God used science to begin this world is the question, now.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith.
-- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
"One man's religion is another man's belly laugh."
-- Robert A. Heinlein<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite upset that you only know two people like this. I believe that a person should be able to defend his faith, if for no other reason then to grow closer with the Lord by studying his word for answers.
Maybe you should add me to that list?
EDIT: Where the <i>hell</i> do you find those quotes <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Certainly, certainly.
In this thread alone we have stated that the bible says "To love God, and God loves us." Also that the bible states to "fear god". And then some one else quoted.. ehh.. what was it now..
A perfect love throws out fear.. or something to that extent. Stating that Love abolishes fear, not promote it.
And for my favorite contradiction... Look at the first 2 chapters- Genesis 1 and 2. Read carefully. In chapter 1 it describes creation, earth sky all that then animals, then Man. In early part of Chapter two, it states that Adam was lounging around in the Garden of Eden bored, so God made animals and had Adam name them.
Did you catch it? Animals then Man. Man then Animals. You don't even have to look beyond the first two chapters. Then there's "Love thy enemy" and "Eye for an Eye". <-- check exodus, i forget exactly where.
I'm fairly confident it states somewhere that one cannot/will not be punished for the sins of another. And then we bring out the tenth plague and kill all the first born sons. Not because they were necessarily "evil", but for vengence against (Ramses wasn't it?) and his followers for ordering the same against the Jews.
I'm sure there's more I've come across that I've forgotten, but those should be enough to prove I'm not just throwing the contradiction statement around. I've heard many use it as well, and few come up with an example on the spot.
Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God.
The only thing I consider to be wrong is altering anothers life in any way they do not want. And no two people want EXACTLY the same from life. So by my way of thinking- no rule can be set without exceptions. As an example: Most would rather u not kill them- but there are a few who suffer from cancer or what have you, and wish to die and be at peace. All very controversial.
Oh hey, I didn't see anyone respond to my angels thing. Anyone know about the 6 wings? Or where to find it in the Bible? I was in a Youth Group a couple years ago and was taught this- but forgot where it mentions it. Doh.
-EDIT-
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
I love it. It sums up my view on right/wrong so very nicely.
Way back in the town I used to live in I went to two churches, the newman center at the college and the Main church in town, both were very different. I have noticed that a lot of priests are VERY educated, some with double docerates and that when they go into school to become priests they have classes of a hard intellectual nature. Anyway where I was going was that there were two priests, Father Jim of the Newman center who was twenty five or so and Father Fox of St. Francis who was 70+, now for their own special reasons they are both special to me both being great people who I admire- and let me tell you a little about them so I can help tie to my own beliefs and apply to this thread, or hope so:
Father Jim: he was very young and open to new ideas, he even let a jahova witness into the church to discuss with the students different relegions and was a very cool guy. But in the end he found the conflictions to much to bear, the church's stance on homosexuality and such and more aiming towards the fact that he wanted to get married and have a family, it was sad seeing him go but he was probably better for it...
Father Fox:An old but HIGHLY educated person, he believed very deeply in what the church stood for and this includes all of the above mentioned things- and he is now in a type of retirement (if that is what you call it)
Now my point is that these two people came from two very different view points and I think it accuratley depicts how the times are changeing and how the oldstyle relegion is not quite what it was cracked up to be. I am catholic, I believe there is a god yes but I don't feel that some of the churches view on issues is fair, if god loves everyone and anyone without exception? Then why does he hate homosexuals? It is because of this that I now stand with a line in the sand, if you will, of where I should go.
Today the bishop came to my church and he talked about how if the ten commandments say to love everybody and everyone, how should we feel towards people like Saddam Hussain and Osama Bin Ladan, or the Sniper- but he said that there was enough hate in the world that we didn't need to be a part of it and that there is forgivness in all.
Some of what he said makes sense and some of it contradicts itself, forgivness? Iternal love? It all just stems off to what Im saying that a lot of what the bible doesn't apply, and that god could not possibly condemn us for being ourselves, its the only constant I can find in the everchanging views of relegion...
I think I lost myself in this rant but I hope it opened up something different <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is funny when people of faith try to degrade atheism <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
after you said this, i told you that no one actually said it which i realized was incorrect. then you quoted him (batt)saying this: "Most of the atheists left their beliefs because something sad happened to them" which you tried to use to prove me wrong. ok, ok, i was wrong, someone said it but still, to me this didnt seem to make sense because batt isnt even a man of faith so you cant what he said as an example to bolden what you said (It is funny when people of <b>faith</b> ry to degrade atheism )
thats why i said what i said, he isnt a man of faith (ill kill myself if im forced to faith again)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ehhh i shouldnt say this
Maybe you should add me to that list?
EDIT: Where the <i>hell</i> do you find those quotes <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel the same way. That is, someone should defend their faith. And if they fear questioning their faith, it is almost telling me that they fear defending their faith to themselves. And then I wonder if they really have anything spiritual to teach me.
I know other people that don't mind questioning their faith, but they all take it with a smile, and a deft verbal sidestep of the issue. I know only these two Christians, who will take my questions head-on. And sometimes, I'll admit, I'll make a comment in an attempt to get a rise of of them. And they rarely, if ever, bite back. I envy that kind of faith and dedication.
I see a few people like that online, but it doesn't usually carry the same amount of weight unless you can actually see the amount of atmosphere they're displacing. But I'll admit you've taken almost every issue head-on without flinching in your words. I'm sure that you'd be included, Legionnaired, the moment I meet you. Perhaps at some nationwide NS tourney someday.
Then again, I'm not that good at Half-life mods. Hopefully NS will be the exception...
I pick up my quotes in various places. I have notepad right there, ready with a Quicklauch icon, and I always carry a pen. About three years ago I started collecting whatever quotes that really meant something to me (although sometimes I wonder what I was thinking). Books, magazines, or the internet, wherever I might see a good quote, I copy it down. I confirm as many as I can, whether it be through a reputable source (Time magazine) or through <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google</a>.
I now have a nice-sized text document full of nifty quotes. Some I can remember, and find using a search. Sometimes it's random.
I really should organize this thing...
-Ryan!
"I quote others only the better to express myself."
-- Michel de Montaigne
"When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple; take it and copy it."
-- Anatole France
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I wrote a paragraph in reply to this, then decided it was <i>too</i> off-topic, even for me. But, what the hey!
This is mentioned in Revelations, which in itself differs greatly from both the Old and New Testament. The Cherubim, or possibly the Seraphim, the highest ranking of angels, are described as appearing this way in heaven. This is the group commonly referred to as archangels, and includes, among others, Michael (with the horn that will end humanity's existence), and The Morning Star. Now Lucifer.
Although the Seraphim have also been described as appearing as bright points of light elsewhere in the Bible. Does anyone have the more/better information?
The writer of Revelations, in a vision, sees these great 6-winged angels circling God's head, as he sits upon his throne.
I sometimes wonder what it would look like to see God. And how I would express it.
Because I'm sure no words would be able to contain it.
-Ryan!
"I don't have any problems with the Lord; it's His earthly representatives who worry the hell out of me."
-- Larry Flynt
"This is my commandment, that ye love one another."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, John 15:12)
There are a few between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but many of these can be attributed (some might say, brushed off) to God spending 32 years upon this mortal coil. The contradictions I have some issue with is with contradictions in the New Testament.
I can't cite these, but there was an attribute to Jesus an admonition to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. In that, there was a quote saying something similar to "I bring not peace but the sword." But in another book, Jesus is attributed with, "All those who take up the sword shall likewise perish by the sword." Not a complete contradiction, but still odd.
In Matthew One and in Luke, the fact that Jesus was to come from the like of David was foretold, but the genealogies were almost completely different. Not to mention the fact that Matthew traced 28 generations, and Luke traced 43. And both traced the lineage from David to Joseph, not from David to Mary. (Again, the concept of immaculate conception is a new idea, declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854, and yet so many people insist on arguing for it. Does the idea that Jesus was not born of God's seed lessen his teachings in the slightest?) Some might consider this "cooking the data."
And what of Jesus's promise that the Kingdom of God would come in the lifetime of some people in his audience? Some might say that he offered them eternal life when they died, provided they admitted their shortcomings, or that the Kingdom is within us all. But I imagine that he may have been meaning quite literally. His audience seems to take it so.
Contradictions do exist, and are important to note. But not a fraction as important as the teachings of love and kindness found in the book, as well.
-Ryan!
"An eye for an eye just ends up making everyone blind."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
"I have nothing new to teach the world. Truth and Non-violence are as old as the hills. All I have done is to try experiments in both on as vast a scale as I could."
-- Mahatma Ghandi