Expensive Classes, Why Keep 'em?

Wirhe · April 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">[Beta 3: Classic]</div> After reading "Onos Claw Not Cutting It Vs Ha?", concerning the relative weakness of onos vs. HA (or anything bigger than my toe-nail), I thought: why should aliens have that expensive class at all? They die quick, wasting their res in the process, so why keep expensive classes to hinder them? Why not make some cheaper class instead, or nerf onos so that the cost could be the same as with fade? (50 at max).

Just in comparison: fully equipped HA costs 45 res, so that's just as much marines can lose per death at maximum.

Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true, but are doing fairly well against anything not-turret-farmed. Onos isn't necessary, it's expensive, it's obsolete.

So, tell us your opinion: why should it be kept and why not? I have told mine with a good reason, so flame away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

BlueNovember · April 2004

I think Onos are still necessary in group to break those HA + Turret farm turtling rines.

Besides, Onos + Umbra = Teh win.

Still, I prefer (and use) fade far more. Their hit and run attacks not only are effectrive, but they reduce marine morale too.

Fade > Onos atm imo. (With any amount of hives)

Squinage · April 2004

If you think about it, a fully equiped HA cost more than 45 res (reserching into HA and HMG) where an onos, with upgrades cost 81 res max.

Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max

Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max

CommunistWithAGun · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Apr 14 2004, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> After reading "Onos Claw Not Cutting It Vs Ha?", concerning the relative weakness of onos vs. HA (or anything bigger than my toe-nail), I thought: why should aliens have that expensive class at all? They die quick, wasting their res in the process, so why keep expensive classes to hinder them? Why not make some cheaper class instead, or nerf onos so that the cost could be the same as with fade? (50 at max).

Just in comparison: fully equipped HA costs 45 res, so that's just as much marines can lose per death at maximum.

Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true, but are doing fairly well against anything not-turret-farmed. Onos isn't necessary, it's expensive, it's obsolete.

So, tell us your opinion: why should it be kept and why not? I have told mine with a good reason, so flame away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
At one time the Onos had a ton of HP, and was extremely awesome and fit perfectly in classic. It however, was changed to suit combat. GG <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

CommunistWithAGun · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squinage @ Apr 14 2004, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you think about it, a fully equiped HA cost more than 45 res (reserching into HA and HMG) where an onos, with upgrades cost 81 res max.

Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max

Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You can't follow that logic because a 10 res shotgun can easily destroy a 50 resource fade.

Rue · April 2004

lol iv devoured countless groups of HA with an onos, thats what onos are for, and if ff is on you sometimes get the HA killing each other

While I do find it uberly lame when onos devour and run after camping outside the rine spawn, its the most usefull weapon against HA the kharaa have

Edit: Just thought I'd add
Natural Selection Classic should never be compromised for Combat balance, never!
All these Co nubs are making it harder to get a good ns game

Fro5ty · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squinage @ Apr 14 2004, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you think about it, a fully equiped HA cost more than 45 res (reserching into HA and HMG) where an onos, with upgrades cost 81 res max.

Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max

Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
But you don't have to research them over again to hand out another heavy or HMG, which makes that rather invalid as you would have to follow what would be the alien's ideal onos.

Let's make a 6v6 game... Let's take the average 8 minutes for an onos to appear.

5 people gorge to drop RTs 50, 5 rts 75, 3 dcs 30, hive 2 50 (someone has to regorge,) 3 mcs 30, onos 75, upgrades 4. All that equals 314 res, and that HA, doesn't even half that...

XCan · April 2004

I still keep on my opinion to lower the cost of all high tech units and make them weaker. Why? Because it works, just look at StarCraft (ignoring battelcruisers as they don't appear during a normal game), it has great variety of high tech units, but none are too powerful.

rockst4r · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Apr 14 2004, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I still keep on my opinion to lower the cost of all high tech units and make them weaker. Why? Because it works, just look at StarCraft (ignoring battelcruisers as they don't appear during a normal game), it has great variety of high tech units, but none are too powerful.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
si senior. more fun for everyone.

briDge · April 2004

Where are aliens losing most of the matches?

I play on a server with truckloads of vets and consties, and aliens win about 75% of all matches if I had to guess.

Squinage · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But you don't have to research them over again to hand out another heavy or HMG, which makes that rather invalid as you would have to follow what would be the alien's ideal onos.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

very true, didnt think of that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Wirhe · April 2004

@ briDge

On regular pubs with (mostly) Average Joe's <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

The basic line behind this thought was, if you read closely: "they die quick." Marines die in a minute or two, and so do aliens. Whereas marines do not need to worry about their upgrades, every alien takes care only for himself. So, why make the hit so big? Why not make more regular units available more often than some ?ber extra-expensive class seen only once per player (per game)?

(Eh, not even sure did *I* hit the bottom line clearly enough <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> )

Hawkeye · April 2004

Onos costs 100 res, right?

Ha costs 45 res, right? Lets round that up to 50 to make it simple.

Now, that means 2 HA should be an even match vs an onos.
I think this is what was intended to happen anyway.

Supposing 2 HA can stand their ground and win 50% of the time vs an onos, does this seem imbalanced?

The answer isn't obvious, but no, it is not balanced, because it requires 2 teammates on one side and 1 on another. Unless humans have twice the number of players, we're talking a serious imbalance if aliens attack in groups.

My thoughts were just to prevent HA devour and make them cost more for more armor. This way, 1 HA can stand his own against 1 onos. It makes it balanced in every respect, not just cost and effectiveness.

Wirhe · April 2004

@ Hawkeye

Wrong, onos costs 75 res, but you're off-topic <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> The subject wasn't HA vs. Onos, but should onos stay as a expensive unit like that, or should there be high-res units at all.

Retales · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Apr 14 2004, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true--  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What servers are you playing in? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

It is true, that onii die very easily to even one HMG (with some LMG support). Fades are minced meat vs shotties. But also the number of hives and the players skill makes a HUUUUUGE difference.

A 2-hive onos with regen and adren + some skilz is damn difficult to kill. Adrenaline allowes the onos to stomp for very long, regen (and maybe some unlucky marine) heals the damage that has been caused. And it's important to know when to run away. Skilled players know, and usually by the time they die, they can afford another onos.

And fade is even more dependant on skills. It shouldnt try to take out more than three LMG LA:s at a time (maybe not more than two, if rines have LVL 3 weapons). Once again, retreating and healing is the key.

So I think the costs are good, but something needs to be done with balance.

Fro5ty · April 2004

Whatever anyone says, onos in classic need a massive bump up in power. A lone marine with an HMG can own an onos. (no pun intended)

The HMG does what, 15 base damage? 15x125 (you have to be an idiot to miss with all 125 shots or have horrid lag/HB lag)=1875 points of damage. That onos is gone folks, despite armor, upgrades and what not. In V2, onos was rather balanced due to the FUBARED hitboxes. Now, they're like skulks. Hell 2-3 LMG marines can kill one with concentrated fire. Something needs to be done about that kinda thing, either through a drop in cost (the thought of a 5 min onos though is unsettling and truthfully, would make more problems) or beefing up one of it's attributes (I've always been partial to onos having different armor absorbtion of damage rate.) HA is rather balanced, a few skulks jump just one and jump around, biting him and he'll die rather quick. Add in a bit of umbra, a few fade swipes or something and it's all the easier. JPs need a nerfing but that's an entirely different thrread.

In short, the onos needs it's stats beefed up, or something to that. It should still cost a pretty penny, but maybe lowering the res cost a bit (65 sounds nice to my ears...) might help as well.

im_lost · April 2004

The base damage for the hmg is 20 damage, according to the 3.0 manual. That means a clip is 2500 damage. It takes 1900 damage to kill an onos, for comparison. Three level 3 lmg clips deal 1950 damage. A regen onos won't die to that, but they had better be running pretty quick.

digz · April 2004

Why should the onos stay?

1: Resource control. So what if a group of fully equiped marines can take on 1 onos, that seems fair. An onos, however, can take out an rt/electified rt in a matter of seconds.

2: Crowd control: If a group of marines are headed to point A, you can pick off at least 1 and still run away. Devour is a great weapon when used correctly (that means that you should have celerity/regen and a path that you can escape to *omg you need to think!*). On average it takes a rine 30-60 seconds to digest. By then you could have completely healed and can take another rine out.

3: High Tech: At 2 hives, if you can team up with a lerk, the combo of stomp and umbra is unbeatable. 3 HA fully equiped marines stand no chance, 4 if you have good aim.

We should keep the higher class, it is most neccesary for countering the upper rine tech IF you dont treat Classic like Combat.

999Hydralisk · April 2004

I only use the onos to eat HA in a turret farmed base or to knock out res towers as digz suggested.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' />

Palin · April 2004

Part of the problem lies in the hands of the Combat mode being so popular. Don't get me wrong, I still like it, but it has brought with it a particular mindset to many players. The biggest change in mindset is that every alien (including gorge to an extent) has a very viable and effective mechanism for attack. Following this line of thought, there has been a great development of skilled Lerks because of the better flight model and the addition of bite. This has translated to many people playing the classic mode by using the Lerk as a primary attack force instead of a largely supportive force. The teamwork has simply lagged behind for the aliens since Combat's reception. In time though, many of these players will finally learn how effective thinking about other people's welfare is many times more beneficial than being selfish.

Oh, and I can't wait for Apr 23 (read main page if you're still out of the loop).

BattleTech · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Apr 14 2004, 07:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Apr 14 2004, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> After reading "Onos Claw Not Cutting It Vs Ha?", concerning the relative weakness of onos vs. HA (or anything bigger than my toe-nail), I thought: why should aliens have that expensive class at all? They die quick, wasting their res in the process, so why keep expensive classes to hinder them? Why not make some cheaper class instead, or nerf onos so that the cost could be the same as with fade? (50 at max).

Just in comparison: fully equipped HA costs 45 res, so that's just as much marines can lose per death at maximum.

Just look at the situation now: aliens are losing most of the matches, true, but are doing fairly well against anything not-turret-farmed. Onos isn't necessary, it's expensive, it's obsolete.

So, tell us your opinion: why should it be kept and why not? I have told mine with a good reason, so flame away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
At one time the Onos had a ton of HP, and was extremely awesome and fit perfectly in classic. It however, was changed to suit combat. GG <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
*sniff* Ol' 900/850 Onos. <-- Might be wrong on the carapace.

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68243' target='_blank'>Onos Claw Not Cutting it Vs HA Discussion.</a>

Forlorn · April 2004

Sorry Tails but you aren't correct on several accounts.

Aliens win more often than marines, (Don't believe me? Go find some stats) that's the #1 wrong assumption you make,

and Onos are nessesary counters to huge base farms (onos are completley invincible to turrets) and HA.

This comes from tons of clan play and pub experience.

Zek · April 2004

While it would be interesting if some of the res cost gap was closed and the species were balanced more as alternate strategies like in an RTS rather than a relatively straight upgrade path(though Fades are in many cases superior to Onoses), the game really hasn't been built for that. I think it would take some major ability changes to make Fades and Onoses relatively equal choices for alien combat(so that they both have a distinct strategic advantage over the other), in addition to obvious map size and atmosphere issues with hordes of Onoses.

While I think it would be more flexible and fun if aliens had equal-but-different species choices instead of a linear progression, making Onoses that cost effective and, well, ordinary really goes against everything they've been designed as. Onoses have already become relatively routine due to their lessened res cost and current power level...

Drakken · April 2004

If any of you guys have used charge as an onos with celerity + regen + scent of fear (for finding the marines) would know that it is incredibly easy to devour a marine when you're running so damned fast.

Rush in as onos with charge, devour HA, and flee before you lose any kind of health.

Onos are very good counter to HA, you just don't know how to do it correctly. All aliens are hit and run, no matter how "good" you are. They are NOT tanks, except for the onos in umbra... that is a different story.

Zek · April 2004

Hive 3 should always be considered the exception, not the rule. Once the marines start up HA trains, getting and/or maintaining 3 hives is not an easy task.

miniman · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squinage @ Apr 14 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you think about it, a fully equiped HA cost more than 45 res (reserching into HA and HMG) where an onos, with upgrades cost 81 res max.

Fully equiped HA = HA 20, welder 5, HMG 20, research HA 40, upgrade armoury 30, 115 Max

Fully tanked up onos = gestation 75, upgrades 2 each, 81 res Max  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
umm HA's and HMG's only cost 15 each
But thats still over 100 res all-up more than 1 alein can hold- duh
Sorry I had to. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' />

ktimekiller · April 2004

i was playing onos and i died in about 10 sec after trying to kill a bunch of marines with shotguns. onos really needs more hp beefing, that shotgun or hmg can take out 100 life in about 2 secs! onos is completely usless if u go far enough for HA and hmgs to appear, the only way i see to kill HA is to eat them or go 1v1 and hope i win(depends if HA player sucks or not) HA is way overpowered, the only way a HA is going to die is from about 10 aliens attacking one HA or getting eaten by a onos. today, i was a onos and i tried to disarm the mines for my allie skulks and after steping on about 5 i had like 40% life left! and i had to go back, and when i came back to disarm the mines again, there was marines all equiped with shotguns and my life from 300 droped to none in about matter or 2 secs. i think its not possible to kill a HA with a onos unless u have company with u unless u eat him for breakfast/lunch/dinner/snack

im_lost · April 2004

Did you use stomp at all? Seriously, if you are going by yourself against marines with anything above lmg's, you shouldn't expect to stick around for long. Any time I do that, I generally run in through the entrance, already running for the other entrance, hitting anything in the path (if there is something to hit). Otherwise, if you are by yourself, you will have to just stick your head in and then retreat, reducing their clip size or forcing them to reload.

Wirhe · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seriously, if you are going by yourself against marines with anything above lmg's, you shouldn't expect to stick around for long</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Not a assault class, and not a blocker class either... But that is beside the point. Like someone said, onos is very good against heavies when it comes to devouring and stomping, and pretty good against farms too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> So, why keep the res cost so high then, hindering aliens so much when there is ALWAYS at least three persons saving for onos?

Why not just make onos 50 res devourer-class with stats a class like that would need?

(Notice the question mark <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /> )

Cpt_Krunch · April 2004

I saw beef up the Onos so when u see an Onos it inspire fear in the marines. But put a requirement of 2 hives for the onos. So ou can get a truly powerful onos, but not after 5 mins.

I dunno how it could work out, but its maybe a solution to look into.

kolokol · April 2004

I ve seen one onos win a 9 v 9 game singlehandely.

Expensive Classes, Why Keep 'em?

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