Onos Claw Not Cutting It Vs Ha?
BattleTech
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4137Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4137Members
Doe's anyone else feel that the Oni's primary weapon, the gore (claw), doesn't cut it vs. HA? From my research (<a href='http://nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>Damage Simulator</a>), it take's Onos 6 hit's to kill a lvl 0 HA and 8 hit's to take down a lvl 3 HA. Though, it's only about 3 to take down a Lvl 3 LA. When I'm playing in combat, I'm an offensive rushing Onos, not your typical stomp+devour the entire game (though I still devour, but it's my secondary attack). But, it's irritating beyond belief when I'm trying to take down a HA while I'm being light it up by the group of marine's behind him and it'll take me about 10 second's to actually put one single HA down and by then, I'm dead. I could of taken out 3-4 LA's by the time it took me to take out that single HA! It's ridiculous when I can't even take out 2 HA's with HMG's without being wasted in their first drum (that's including if I devour a 3rd one).
<span style='color:blue'>It's worse in classic then it is in combat because Onos aren't tweaked with carapace/regen combination's. </span>
I know most of you would suggest focus, but it still doesn't cut it imho. It's extremely slow and require's good aim and make's you more vulnerable to dying. It doesn't even work that effective against LA's either, a Skulk can take out a HA or LA with focus faster than an Onos could with a 40-dmg difference.
I'm thinking perhap's we should beef the Onos gore (claw) damage up to 130 vs HA. I'd like to see atleast 4 hit's to kill lvl 0 armor and 5 for lvl 1-2 armor and 6 for lvl 3. Perhap's he'll actually become the "counter" to HA train's if this change was added. <span style='color:red'>Though, this MAY unbalance the game .. especially if the Onos get's focus! </span> (So I need more suggestions on this!)
Atm, STOMP is the only counter for HA train's from an Onos (talking about trains, not a lone HA you can just devour).
(Edited from original post)
<span style='color:blue'>It's worse in classic then it is in combat because Onos aren't tweaked with carapace/regen combination's. </span>
I know most of you would suggest focus, but it still doesn't cut it imho. It's extremely slow and require's good aim and make's you more vulnerable to dying. It doesn't even work that effective against LA's either, a Skulk can take out a HA or LA with focus faster than an Onos could with a 40-dmg difference.
I'm thinking perhap's we should beef the Onos gore (claw) damage up to 130 vs HA. I'd like to see atleast 4 hit's to kill lvl 0 armor and 5 for lvl 1-2 armor and 6 for lvl 3. Perhap's he'll actually become the "counter" to HA train's if this change was added. <span style='color:red'>Though, this MAY unbalance the game .. especially if the Onos get's focus! </span> (So I need more suggestions on this!)
Atm, STOMP is the only counter for HA train's from an Onos (talking about trains, not a lone HA you can just devour).
(Edited from original post)
Comments
Tails is dead on.
Well...
Indeed an onos only using gore won't do much damage. From this point of view onos should become much stronger.
BUT there is a problem. Devour. A good onos player never ever misses with devour. No matter what the marine does, flying in the air with JP, dodging around, crouching, jumping from a platform the onos will always "hit" with the first devour. Most marines are not at full health/armor so marine nr2 and nr3 are dead in 1-2 gores each too. Or the onos can just run away and stomp all following marines (there is NO way to kill this onos before the marine is devoured and if you are unlucky the onos will just turn around and eat you too).
Like the fade the onos is only godlike in the hands of a skilled (onos) player.
Increased damage against HA? Goodbye marines.
A solution to this problem must include changes in stomp and devour too.
in classic i think the onos is fine, stomp/devour is the best attrition weapon against heavies. however, i agree, the damage is too low for an onos to be an assault class, 6 to 8 hits IS way too much.
for combat mode, stomp/devour doesn't help as much toward winning it for the aliens. An upgrade in gore damage for combat would make the onos a lot better. Taking the time to hit the marine in heavy armor 5 to 8 times, only to have him respawn a few seconds later sounds kind of pathetic for the ultimate kharaa melee form. Beef up gore damage and in combat onos will be good for something other than suiciding on the command chair and soaking up bullets.
I don't think beefing up gore would be unbalancing for classic. With a little more damage the onos can drop one heavy out of a train, and then run to go heal, instead of stupidly dying before being able to finish off a single heavy in the train.
... two heavies if you count the one that should be in his belly.
For Classic
- upgraded damage wouldn't hurt... too much... it's suposed to be the most powerful creature the kharaa can front
For Combat
- upgraded damage is a must
Fixed typo's.
Gorge annihlates marines. It has the most range of any alien melee attack and kills much faster to boot.
If the onos killed HA any faster than HA would be completley useless against onos.
Not to mention, the numbers:
1 Onos vs. 1 HA = Onos wins
1 Onos vs. 2 HA = Onos wins
1 Onos vs. 3 HA = Either side's game, but if the onos uses devour and hits and runs the onos wins
1 Onos vs. 4 HA = Onos better have stomp, and even then he must eat, hit, and run away from marines
This is a non-issue
Pick your ground to stomp advancing heavies, devour one, stomp again, run away. Repeat. When teammates appear, stomp so they can attack, gore twice, HA down, devour another one, run away, stomp, marines reloading, entire HA train down....well ok, exaggerating, but ive seen it happen. NOTHING wrong with gore.
Kill one HA at a time with devour
If you think you can devour one and stomp + gore the other
Don't be stupid with your 75 res investment, don't take more than you can
Onos rips lights to pieces
Onos is a tank, sometimes marines can hold a room off from the aliens for a long time by keeping fades at bay and skulks dead, an onos can pretty much rip up anything that does'nt have 2+ shotguns or HMGs and even if they do with support onos will win the battle for aliens
Onos is worth it, leave it alone
Guess why the light armor marines only have 270 hp? So they always die to onos in 3 hits (2 if you have no armor, by which you're already dead).
And versus heavy armor? The best part about HA is that they tend to stick together, one stomp will just freeze most of them or even the whole train, devour, repeat. Oh, and NEVER be greedy, if you miss that first devour, just run away, if you try again, you're dead, it's that simple.
You've been playing combat too long.
An onos has 700 Hps and 600 armor, giving him an effective 1900 hps (600 * 2 + 700)
If an onos is paired with a lerk being umbraed constantly, the onos will have an effective 5700 hps (1900 * 3, since 1 in every 3 bullets will ever hit).
This makes Forlon's estimation tipped against the marines when the onos is under the umbra condition.
In other words: If you think Forlon's numbers doesnt quite cut it, throw a lerk with umbra into the equation. You could take down 3 marines easily, with a safe max of 5. This is assuming that you have a second hive. And teamwork.
Hate to admit it, but I'm riding in the same boat as BattleTech. Plus, the LA marines take way more longer to kill than before now....currenly, the problem with the Onos is that it isn't effective as a bullet sponge. More like target practise.
The onos is now no longer feared like in 1.04, more it's just a "Meh, an Onos. Let's shoot it."
BTW, you forgot to mention that Stomp barely does anything with its new one second stun. It may have been to balance combat, but it sure is annoying to get riddeld with bullets even though you stomped them. Before it was the marines who were annoyed, now it's the Onos turn :/
2. Gore is nearly never used. With the exeption of light marines gore is simply not used any more, devour is too much more effective. Focus gore is the worst thing I have ever seen in my life.
3. Onos is extreamly efficiant assault class, If you think otherwize you need to play less combat. The onos is not supposed to be able to rambo into highly concentrated fire, if you think it is you might as well belive that skulks are supposed to be able to take on marines without jumping hiding or straithing. Any good onos has some gage on weather or not he is gonna be able to get out of a situation alive, and that is what they use to decide weather or not they rush that HA squad or not.
To sum this point up, I agree with the original statement and dissagree with your reasons for why the onos sucks. The onos is fine, gore is just useless against HA (with the rare exception that the HA has no backup)
An onos has 700 Hps and 600 armor, giving him an effective 1900 hps (600 * 2 + 700)
If an onos is paired with a lerk being umbraed constantly, the onos will have an effective 5700 hps (1900 * 3, since 1 in every 3 bullets will ever hit).
This makes Forlon's estimation tipped against the marines when the onos is under the umbra condition.
In other words: If you think Forlon's numbers doesnt quite cut it, throw a lerk with umbra into the equation. You could take down 3 marines easily, with a safe max of 5. This is assuming that you have a second hive. And teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My numbers are true like this:
2 HA can be taken on by a 1 hive onos
3 HA can be taken on by a 2 hive onos
4 HA or more you will need umbra
edit: I'm talking classic only.
edit: I'm talking classic only. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I see where he's coming from I think-
Stomp, devour, run away, now you're down to the 2 HA scenario.
But yeah, it would take a while.
So there; onos isn't effective class. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Just try replacing those heavies with vanilla)
(Er... why did that sound so stupid...? l77t talk again. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
edit: I'm talking classic only. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 onos = eat one
Heal
Go back and just gorge/eat the other
3 HA = stomp, eat, heal, eat/gorge the remaining
With 4 (or LA for that matter) HA they can mess you up pretty quick, you will need umbra support, or lots of onos
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So there; onos isn't effective class.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of silly statement is that?
Running away mean's it's not effective?
So the onos should just run in, clobber everything, and call it a GG? huh?
Onos is a base breaking bullet muncher, not a tank of doom.
but you guys all have valid points... yes, the onos can currently kill groups of 3 HA or less easily, and 4 HA or more with difficulty, and there isn't really any reason or way to change that...
but its PRIMARY WEAPON is just too underpowered. it kills buildings? fascinating. now what about killing marines? You'd rather use devour every single time, because gore just doesn't cut it except against LAs.
Increase gore damage so it doesn't take 6-8 hits to kill a heavy!
5-7 hits (5 for no armor upgrades, 7 for max) sounds a lot better.
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT YOU WANT ONE PLAYER TO TOTALLY DOMINATE OVER THE OTHER TEAM WHILST HIS OTHER MATES KEEP THEIR STATS?!?!?!?!
Because if that's your reasoning, the aliens would win all the time given the suggestions you want.
Simply put, it is NOT fair give such an extremely powerful class WHILE still having the same entourage of teammates.
That's like saying we should have a nearly unstoppable weapon...coupled with that extra oomph to make it unstoppable.
Jeez people, get out of combat, get to NS, and learn how to use teamwork.
One onos and 3 skulks will MAIM a heavy train if they don't watch themselves. Man...
<b>1. Devour is the only real anti-HA weapon aliens have</b>
True - at Hive 1 and 2.
<b>2. Gore is underpowered against non-structures</b>
True. Taking 3 hits against most Light Armor marines puts you in the same ballpark as a Skulk efficiency wise, not to mention that you're a bigger target, slower and alot, lot less expendable. Even for it not being the Onos proficiency, it sucks majorly - in fact, the best way to fight onos is probably with lights (alot cheaper than JPs).
<b>3. Boosting Gore would not unbalance the game horribly</b>
Say if it were boosted to the point that it could take Armor 2 out with 2 hits (230/2 = 115 Gore damage), or anything reasonably close to that effect, the Onos would still be far from overpowered - a Level 2 HA for comparison would still take 620/115 = <b>6 hits</b>. Right now it takes 7.
There is very little in the way of conceivable downsides to tweaking the Onos slighty to suck a bit less when a base is actually manned - he would remain in his current role, but not be maimed to the point of ridicule in actual Melee. In all actuality, the current Onos is the hardest class to overpower - seeing as how it as the only lategame tech on either side has severe movement impediments (HA with phasetech and beacon backup doesn't even remotely compare).
What about the knife thread?
Yes, Onos is fine against HA (provided there's teamword), but (as SaltzBad pointed out in his summary) it isn't very cost-effective against LA marines with heavy weaponry.
Yes, Onos is fine against HA (provided there's teamwork), but (as SaltzBad pointed out in his summary) it isn't very cost-effective against LA marines with heavy weaponry.