Alien Rts Are Worth More Than Marine Rts
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Marine rts are easier to put up!</div> You could practically skip reading this and just look at the title. With ingame insights and forum facts, I've realized that it's much more valuable to take down alien rts than to save your own.
Think about it. An alien has to go gorge first, and then put up the rt. That's already a pain, not to mention the fact that it costs 25 res (10 res for gorge + 15 for rt). Or if they're a permagorge, then that's a lot of time to wait for 15 res to roll in.
Whereas three marines can run to a res node, cap it very quickly, and then move on. They just have to get there and let the comm know. And they can defend themselves much better than gorges.
If you can't hold your rts, don't fight an uphill battle trying to save/rebuild them. Aliens are better at taking down rts than marines. Soon you'll be seeing fades everywhere.
Instead, take down alien rts. It's like trading a bishop for a rook in chess. They won't have res to get anything, whereas marines can still live off of one rt. No fades in lategame = aliens lose.
So give it a shot - both rambo marines and comms. It strikes a crushing blow to the alien's biggest weakness, their res system.
Think about it. An alien has to go gorge first, and then put up the rt. That's already a pain, not to mention the fact that it costs 25 res (10 res for gorge + 15 for rt). Or if they're a permagorge, then that's a lot of time to wait for 15 res to roll in.
Whereas three marines can run to a res node, cap it very quickly, and then move on. They just have to get there and let the comm know. And they can defend themselves much better than gorges.
If you can't hold your rts, don't fight an uphill battle trying to save/rebuild them. Aliens are better at taking down rts than marines. Soon you'll be seeing fades everywhere.
Instead, take down alien rts. It's like trading a bishop for a rook in chess. They won't have res to get anything, whereas marines can still live off of one rt. No fades in lategame = aliens lose.
So give it a shot - both rambo marines and comms. It strikes a crushing blow to the alien's biggest weakness, their res system.
Comments
Think about it. An alien has to go gorge first, and then put up the rt. That's already a pain, not to mention the fact that it costs 25 res (10 res for gorge + 15 for rt). Or if they're a permagorge, then that's a lot of time to wait for 15 res to roll in.
Whereas three marines can run to a res node, cap it very quickly, and then move on. They just have to get there and let the comm know. And they can defend themselves much better than gorges.
If you can't hold your rts, don't fight an uphill battle trying to save/rebuild them. Aliens are better at taking down rts than marines. Soon you'll be seeing fades everywhere.
Instead, take down alien rts. It's like trading a bishop for a rook in chess. They won't have res to get anything, whereas marines can still live off of one rt. No fades in lategame = aliens lose.
So give it a shot - both rambo marines and comms. It strikes a crushing blow to the alien's biggest weakness, their res system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are too many variables mising/countered to consider this a full force tactic. While most is true, resources hold more worth to the marines than aliens.
Consider this: You both [teams] follow this same tactic, and you are both down to one resource node hypothetically. Your resources come in painfully slow, while five marines stand waiting for a HA train which will take minutes.
Aliens on the other hand have two/three possibilities to choose:<ul>[1]Camp their base, converse to go for a full fade rush before your HA are fully ready
[2]Cap the resources -- with much more ease than you, or
[3]Constantly harass your base, which will end up with you losing resources as quickly as they are coming in</li></ul>You will suffer more from this then they will suffer by this tactic.
Not to mention marines will own skulks heavily, all the better with more upgrades.
Where did they get res for fade when both teams slashed and burned?
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Who said anything about ha? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Shotguns or even lmgs will kill a hive nicely. More important than gear is teamwork.
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Aliens on the other hand have two/three possibilities to choose:<ul>[1]Camp their base, converse to go for a full fade rush before your HA are fully ready
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One, where are they gonna get the res from now that they're down to one rt? Two, see the first one, who said anything about ha.
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[2]Cap the resources -- with much more ease than you, or
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Tell me why aliens have it easier. I told you why I think marines have it easier to cap res towers.
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[3]Constantly harass your base, which will end up with you losing resources as quickly as they are coming in.
</li></ul>
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First, I don't see how you'll lose res. You'll actually gain res as you'll get more rfk, as marines have the advantage of range. Fades are good at harassing bases, but those aliens don't have res for fades! Skulks with leap are pretty good as long as there isn't turrets or electricity.
Of course you have to cap rts too... but my point is that, to quote Sun Tzu,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->15. A wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one's own store.
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<a href='http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html' target='_blank'>http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html</a> for the full online copy.
Very, very, true in ns.
Most of it is really just obvious stuff encrypted into a bunch of meaningless jargon.
For instance:
You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.
You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.
Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
It's obvious. Attack what they can't defend easily, defend what they can't attack easily. Jeez, you don't need some long dead Chinese guy to tell you stuff like this.
If you have people gathering resources for the nozzles, some for fades, and other areas like upgrades, protection, etc. aliens will have a upper hand. The commander only has one pool, and he has to choose between HA/HMG, Shotty, JP, or RT's.
Again this goes back to what I originally said about too many variables unidentified.
If they razed your res nodes, you can't fade. The marine resource pool is...pooled, it makes distribution much easier. Shotties, welders, HMGs, HA, they are all cheaper than fading, and even fading, the resources are distributed evenly throughout the entire team.
In short, your analysis just...sucks.
If they razed your res nodes, you can't fade. The marine resource pool is...pooled, it makes distribution much easier. Shotties, welders, HMGs, HA, they are all cheaper than fading, and even fading, the resources are distributed evenly throughout the entire team.
In short, your analysis just...sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It just depends on what you choose on the fly how it will affect you. You can't just play a scenario with words and expect for every item to be identified.
The most you can argue from this is that resources will break even, not a large increase.
I guess noone realizes that marines are gonna get rts up as soon as that 15 res trickles in. Aliens are gonna have to wait a looong time to get 25 res off of 1 rt and rfk. And if marines tear that rt down right away... sucks for them!
And I don't think anyone realizes that fades cost res! Lots of it! They just don't come out of the woodwork.
I'm surprised that people are arguing against this. I though it would be pretty one sided.
Oh and rapier... if Sun Tzu's stuff is so obvious... why don't most comms follow it?
Not to mention they can be reused from dead players (besides HA or JPs)
Alien res destruction off the bat is a good tactic, give out like 2 shotguns at the start to trusty and skilled marines and that'll make the alien nodes and the gorges drop even faster, you kill a node and a gorge then that'll be a worthy investment. Move quickly, cripple their economy quickly and you'll find that 8 minute fades are much easier to counter because you can tech up even more.
Most of it is really just obvious stuff encrypted into a bunch of meaningless jargon.
For instance:
You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.
You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.
Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
It's obvious. Attack what they can't defend easily, defend what they can't attack easily. Jeez, you don't need some long dead Chinese guy to tell you stuff like this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it sounds very obvious, but most people simply dont realize it, thats why its usefull! Play some RTS (ie. Rise of Nations), there most people dont follow these rules. If they see your huge army near borders, they attack you through your defending army, instead of going around and attacking your cities/economy.. They attack where its hardest and not easiest :-)
And to the topic of RTS, yes, alien RTs are more "valuable", they are harder for aliens to rebuild, and with 1 RT aliens are practically dead (1 RT on 9v9 server = res income 1.6res/minute for every alien :-)
Before anyone bothers to mention "But they shouldn't have the res..." - if noone saved up from the start, they were a crappy team anyway. If you did manage to kill every node including the hivenode, then its true - the win is yours (and they likely won't manage to get the 2nd Hive in the first place).
But its a bit of common sense that many pub comms lack, and why they fail in anything smaller than 9v9 - attack and destroy anything you can put a finger on. Chambers, nodes, hives and eggs - its so much more valuable to them than any of your structures (with the exception of a researching AA maybe).
Most of it is really just obvious stuff encrypted into a bunch of meaningless jargon.
For instance:
You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.
You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.
Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
It's obvious. Attack what they can't defend easily, defend what they can't attack easily. Jeez, you don't need some long dead Chinese guy to tell you stuff like this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it sounds very obvious, but most people simply dont realize it, thats why its usefull! Play some RTS (ie. Rise of Nations), there most people dont follow these rules. If they see your huge army near borders, they attack you through your defending army, instead of going around and attacking your cities/economy.. They attack where its hardest and not easiest :-)
And to the topic of RTS, yes, alien RTs are more "valuable", they are harder for aliens to rebuild, and with 1 RT aliens are practically dead (1 RT on 9v9 server = res income 1.6res/minute for every alien :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play a proper RTS like Starcraft <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> and you will notice many different tactics...
Reaver drop, Distrution web, heck a Nuke on the com-centre/nexus/hive
All these don't involve attrition. However it involves sneaking round the back of the nme.
How you mentioned... its like sending 80 Hydras against a group of Siege tanks guarding a Choke point. It just wont work.
BTW, Ballisto has it hit right on the nail because there are 2 main reasons that would ned elaboration.
- Shared res pool. Meaning one RT brings in one res per tick, 2 brings 2, etc.
On the other hand aliens get 1 res per tick, evenly distributed amongst the whole team. The only time they can get more than one res at a fixed rate is either they got a hold of all resnodes in the map, or there's only one player.
- Permanent Upgrades. Once marines upgrade something, it's there for the rest of the game. It won't matter if you die, you'll still have those upgrades.
For aliens, it's a one upgrade per life plan. The more you die, the more res you pay. Overall alien upgrades become painfully expensive, way more expensive than marine upgrades.
Let's put it this way....
Marines have teched up armor 1, for the cost of 25 res. The marine dies, he still respawns with the armor 1 upgrade. He dies 20 times, it's still the same cost, no matter how many times he's died. Even if he dies 200 times, it still costs 25 res.
A skulk has upgraded to Carapace, costing him 2 points. Assuming he takes carapace everytime after he dies, if he dies once, he has to pay 2 res again to get Carapace. He dies 20 times, now he has payed 40 res in total for upgrading Carapace for every single life he has. If he dies 200 times, he spends 400 res. That's more than twice the amount of res paid for an upgrade.
And this is where alien RTs come into play. In a 6v6 game, players usually split and get resnodes due to the insanely slow amount of res they get with one node. Apparently, this will cost them almost all of the resources. What would happen if the RTs are destroyed? They get sent back to square one.
What happens to the marines is a different story. In a 6v6 game, they most likely take it steady. Taking one RT at a time. For the cost of one RT, you can gain twice the rate of just one RT, quickly covering the cost of that one RT. Take 2 after that, and double efficiency again and you gain res at quadruple the rate that you've started with. Take one marine RT down, they still get res at an insane rate, because they still have more than one resnode.
So typically, in the game of res, marines win over aliens by a mile, because they have a shared pool, and tough RTs.
But the tough RTs is a different story, and has to do with gameplay.
What does knifing do? In most rts it puts you in a vulnerable spot with little distance seperating you from where the skulk would appear. Power sub junction on eclipse is the worst rt ever. Marines get OWNED on that one, aliens are really hard to get (you have to go around, then they jump on you), and if they do want to run, there's a vent nice and handy.
Aliens, on the other hand, can take cover behind the rt. And a good chunk of the time (a good number of rts) they can run out the back, up a vent, or some safe place when the cavalry comes.
Shotties of course... how many shots is it to down an rt? I think it's a little more than clip. Thats faster than skulks of course. But then its 10 res.
In other words, one LMG reload for 3 guys.
Alien RTs are easy to destroy, no matter which way you put it because its most likely you'd be travelling in groups of 2 or so. 2 knifers can down an alien RT quickly, but not as safe as one LMG guarding the knifer knifing the RT.
This weakness (the alien RT)is countered by the fact that most alien classes are highly mobile, making it way one of the disadvantages as well. By disadvantage, I mean getting unlucky with the Fade, blinking into a wall, and getting hit by stray shots.
Marines RTs on the other hand, are much more harder to destroy. What makes them harder to destroy is that the fact is you're usually only a lone skulk. Unless you parasite it and continue muching on it, it's doubtful that others will come to help you. But with every strength there is also a weakness. Marines are slow, and without phases, they tend to be a wee bit too late when they get there. But throw in the fact the have ranged weapons, it just makes things twice as tough to bring them down.
I do have to admit that aliens hiding behind marine RTs are a lot tougher than marines hiding behind alien RTs. But in the game of res, the marines have the upper hand. Throw in shared res pool and phases and you have something to fear.
BTW, I'm mainly an alien player, so don't expect me to say anything that is in favor of aliens. I like playing marines just as I like playing aliens.
Marine can kill RT quicker than skulk and when it comes to 1v1 fight rine usually wins..
Starcraft is the most dumbed down game ever. All the official maps have you started off in a blocked off, isolated start, with a few expansions that have one or two entrances. That doesn't leave much for battlefield strategy.
I play Total Annihilation, and most maps are wide open, and units take time to mobilize. To turtle is to die, to expand is to win.
That means you hit the least defended area, while destroying enough of your opponent's production and infrastructure before his standing army can react, the faster, the better. That is standard TA battle doctrine for CORE and ARM commanders. For Starcraft, most people think, "OMGZ! i r going ot dest0ry der army and den pwnz0r der base!!11".
Alien RTs are infinitely more valuable than marine rts. It's just hard getting your average pubber to follow along with your plan. "NO, SUYF AND GO ATTACK THEIR RT, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT MINE!"
Jeez...
Simple.. rine tech stays. rine have shared pool.
kharaa lose res on tech, kharaa have a own pool.
this is ALWAYS a win win unless the team sucks or you got a 2nd hive.
fix? also presure the first hive. let that kharaa deside to fade instead hiveup. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You will see EVERY one of the top clans use this strat.. because they can aim better they keep the aliens at 1 RT for the entire game..
0 fades, 0 upgrades (who can afford 10 for a dc when you are getting 1 res per 6 ticks)..
Believe me, I've seen it used by very co-ordinated teams with excellent sucess...
You don't even need an excellent aimming team because the majority of the fights are you against a stationary RT <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Side note on Eclipse. Power sub.. in that case, I empty EVERY piece of ammo I have on that tower before I even think about running in to knife..
Also in this one case, humping the armoury makes sense since you need lots of ammo to kill a RT (which is generally safer than attempting to knife it in a solo situation)
The only other thing I would add, is this has to be a First level strat.. you can't try something else and then try this.. The res accumulated by then would bury you..
The other thing you can usually do, is fire a round into the RT, back off, reload and wait for the skulks to come expecting you to be knifing it.. You can really send them to the spawn que by having some patience when dealing with enemy RT's (note this is not a great tactic but one that works a fair bit with the tradeoff being they have the RT still functioning)
However, in a large public game, say 16 vs 16, alien RTs aren't as important. Instead, a few good aliens will kill large numbers of marines and use the RFK to build hives, upgrade chambers, and evolve higher lifeforms. In other words, aliens are usually the winners in the massive battles slash-and-burn might involve, since even if they lose, the marines just fed RFK to the aliens.
I believe that hive control is much more important in large public games. In this case, we're accepting the fact that aliens will evetually get the resources to evolve, and instead targeting the upgrades. This still requires the same basic things as slash-and-burn, such as moving around as a large posse of destruction. RTs become mere targets-of-opportunity, overshadowed by preventing, countering, and destroying other alien upgrades as they appear, such as hives, chamber upgrades, and higher lifeforms. This also means the double resource nodes are not as important.
Thats precisely what most commanders who use this strat do on resource towers in tough locations. If enemy forces are expected to react quickly to their structure under attack, he instructs his marines to shoot the node down. Especialy hive nodes. Once we've pretty much killed all of their nodes, he will tell us to go to the hive and shoot the node down from safety. Ofcourse there are plenty of hives where this is near impossible, but then he'll just tell us to go in, and try to kill anything possible, aliens, the RT, upgrade chambers... whatever we can get our hands on.