<!--QuoteBegin-ElectricSheep+Apr 25 2004, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ElectricSheep @ Apr 25 2004, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just thought of a solution to bunnyhopping and pnacking at once. Blobk all scripts with +jump in them. The only ones that use it are duckjump and +3jump. It is incredibly hard to bhop with out +3jump (which is what make lerks pancake 3jumps are registered for lerk making it go up really fast.) Skulks and gorges would need a speed increase (massive) without bhopping, but overall it would balance the playing field. And yes I do know how to bhop and right now I do use a +3jump script to bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bhopping, a skulk feature, would get even more complained about because people couldn't do it. Leave bhopping alone.
the same way there is a max firing rate for the pistol there should be a max flapping rate. it should be about the the speed that you could repeatdly hit jump the fastest. the jumpscripts which give you instant top speed is what makes it exploitable
other solutions i've heard that might work are ..let lerks take fall damage so you cant accelerate into to floors and ceilings without consequence
the lerk is finally fun,effective but not invincible. i say dont go back to the old lerk..there needs to be some comprimise. there are counters for lerks.. like turrets (finally a real reason to build em) and GLs and shottys in tight quarters.
previously alien strats (especially competive play) depended too heavily on fades whihc was kinda boring and repetetive.
But I like the lerk ... now it's not just a flimsy waste of 30 res. Wasn't seeing many effective lerks in previous versions without movement upgrades (which generally meant 2 hives, assuming the usual d-m-s hierarchy). By which time 'rines had plenty of armour/weapon upgrades and lerks were only much use for umbra-ing an onos/sporing. Although the support role is (rightly) still the most important thing, a lerk isn't crippled by having to keep 1 eye fixed on the energy bar while attempting some sort of hit-and-run tactic early on.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Apr 25 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Apr 25 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To fly down, you look down, hold forward and flap. Mousewheel works fine if you look straight down enough. I don't understand where people are having problems with this, and I haven't at all noticed that Lerks get more lift now.
Pancaking needs a nerf for reasons that are relatively obvious. Even beyond that though I think Lerk flight cost needs to be brought back, if a little less than it was before. Besides pancaking, with new flight there's no finesse in Lerk flight. There's no point to gliding; people constantly spam the flap button in order to maintain max speed and it's just stupid. A small energy cost needs to be maintained in order to discourage people from flapping their brains out, but it should be small enough to be basically free to someone who knows how to fly properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, a little cost would go a long way. There may still be pancaking lerks but they would eventually have to stop for the adrenaline, and those that either can't master it like peopl ekeep demanding you do, or aren't coordinated enough, can still get the full benefit without having to worry about running out of adrenaline so quickly.
I'm just puzzled by why the hell this was pulled off. The Lerk was perfect before - out of all aliens, he had the best ability to choose his fights, and along with it the ability to melee 2-3 light marines.
Next to that, he had the best support abilitys, was a great scout and available extremely early into the game. Its the last thing to ever have been a 'waste of 30 res' - the amount of competition matches Lerks were used in is living proof of that.
Right now, all the beautiful lerking of B3 is down the crapper and replaced by flapspamming and pancake manuevers. Not a hint of energy management, gliding, conserving momentum or anything. Flaptimers won't solve any of this either.
If theres a solution to it, revert energy cost to B3 levels, but work on the takeoff/landing routines a bit. Possibly make the first airborne flap cheaper or stronger than before to avoid 'stalled' Lerks. Alternatively make bites cheaper, giving the Lerk a whole new range of additional usefulness without uberising him like right now - or 25-50 more base speed (as thats his main weakness at Hive 1, the speed).
Tons of ways to tweak the Lerk without removing the thought involved in using him.
Just aim, jesus. Its not impossible to kill a pancaking lerk, you just have to..............aim Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_
What provoked this change? the only thing I ever found frustrating about the beta lerk is stalling after I forgot that I couldn't fly backwards any more.
If were gonna allow lerks to fly at max speed 100% of the time anyways why not just bring down the glide drag? If you can't figure out how to glide, you haven't put any time into learning the lerk anyways. I really don't understand the need for reducing flap cost to zero...
the previous lerk spent most of his time sitting on the ground or in a vent spraying gas and umbra (not fun at all). sorry but a lerk could not take on 2-3 marines..maybe one at most..but its was stil very risky if the marine could aim. (and in competive play dying as a higher lifeform is not really exceptable)
while the fade always has enough enrgy to blink away..why should a lerk fall out of the sky when he has no energy
the energy requirments are almost certainly going to be put back in i just hope they are lower than the were at beta3.
anpther problem with lerk is any turn you make you lose all momentum , so you have to flap again ..which puts a damper on any evasive flying
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Apr 25 2004, 09:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Apr 25 2004, 09:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you guys not yet seen "pancaking" lerks that flap up and crash down quicker then you can hit them? People are using bunnyhop aliases to make themselves nigh unhittable. Anything short of a good marine with a shotgun or a bunch of marines with machineguns will result in that lerk dominating. None of this is even taking into account umbra and celerity which makes it even crazier and damn near impossible to hit the lerks.
Just things I've noticed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I have seen that, that needs to be fixed, and I'm seeing people doing it with fade too now...
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just aim, jesus. Its not impossible to kill a pancaking lerk, you just have to..............aim Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 26 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 26 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just aim, jesus. Its not impossible to kill a pancaking lerk, you just have to..............aim Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he knows what he is talking about, he is one of the best lerks, and is using the said technique often. He often has 20/0 kills. Still, he is true, 3 marines that aim + got some spam and he is dead in no time .. Its just a flying skulk nothing more..
- previous lerk was NOT FUN to use. You had to be in vent, crawl behind some other aliens and if you had no cover/made little mistake, you died in instant
- previous lerk was only used in clan play because of spore and consequently umbra ability. It was not fun to be lerk and it was very hard.
- lerk is still just a bigger skulk,slower than leaping skulk, and dies very quickly to anything bigger than lmg. Even lmg fire from 3 marines kills lerk in tiny fraction of second.
- to be hard-to-hit lerk must move quickly and just spore, with some random finishing bites to rines + occasionally retreating to regenerate, such lerk is not so big threat, even though it reduces armor upgrades and drains some res from rines.
- lerk, unlike fade, still needs some support from other aliens. It needs DC and more aliens around to be effective and not die quickly
- rines were overpowered early, basically killing all the skulks and owning all the res, with quick lvl2 armor rines required 4 bites from skulks. New lerk helps balance this.
- if you still think lerk is so unbalanced, play it against good rines, no matter what, eventually you die, faster than with fade..
- i play commander a lot and i know lerk can cause troubles, but rines are still winning good deal of games even if aliens are using multiple early lerks. Added lerks just improve balance and cause more interesting games with not so many obvious 5-10 minute rine wins i was used to..
It's really simple. If Lerks needed more energy before, they could have been given more energy, or less energy use. There's no reason for flight to have NO energy use. It's a flawed idea to begin with.
As far as Combat goes, only really really crappy players had energy problems. The beta3 lerk is 100% perfect and in no need of changes. Any changes past beta3 and the lerk becomes better than it needs to be. Same thing with SuperArmoredRegenFades.
As far as Classic goes, sure the lerk is weaker being able to get only one thing from the movement tree, but that goes for all alien classes too. They can still fly and glide around and do what they do best, which is hit and run. And they can do it fine, again, unless you're crappy :)
The problem with lerks in Classic isn't that they can't fly around enough, it's that they can't get enough upgrades to make them really really good. A lerk with focus, armor, regen, speed, and adren is a powerful beast unlike any other.
I'm a big lerk player, so make it better and great, I'll do better. But it is less fun this way, it doesn't make sense, and I don't think the game needs it.
I only hope, that if flayra decides to change it, he will do it not by reintroducing flapping cost, by rather giving some delay between flaps, it would be more logical step - this would stop lerks from maneuvering too fast.
As someone who has lerked since 1.0, I feel compelled to express my opinion in what I see as a divided conflict.
In my personal opinion, I believe that the change in energy cost for lerk flight has bennifited the class greatly. Many have said, not just in this post, that in 3.0b3, the lerk was a waste of 30 resources without additional hives, defense towers, and movement towers. Many have also said, in response to the change, that the lerk was a very effective support class for 30 resources and the reduction of flight cost has given lerks an unfair advantage due to the exploitability of its speed (i.e. "pancaking"). I can see and understand the validity of both sides of the argument, exploitablilty vs. usefullness has plagued the lerk since 1.0. However I think a resolution which would solve many of the problems seen here is simple to reach, and could perhaps be a very suitable compromise for both sides. I present my arguments as follows:
The new, 0 cost, flight system for the Lerk is highly desirable, in terms of playability. In the past the lerk has always been restricted in terms of what upgrades it chooses.
--In versions 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0, a lerk could easily end up dead if players didnt choose correct upgrades. Defense Chambers give the lerk armor which in recent versions has been vital, but discrepince lies with the player, choosing regeneration is also benificial, but playing style is less agressive. Movement chambers were vital because the lerk can quickly run out of adrenaline while trying to A)fly B)spore/umbra and C)bite/spike, depending on the version you're playing. However, with 2.0 the lerk also was had a slower maximum flight speed, requiring higher energy management if celerity is chosen, or movement chambers are unavailable, this also contributed to the lerk becoming a less agressive, and more supportive class.
The game's developer's must also take another factor into account, and for this discussion so should we. This is of course the actual desire of a player to use the class. --Natural Selection is a Team Based game, true. However, Counter-Strike, Team-Fortress, and most other Half-Life multiplayer modifications are as well. It is not fair to say that when you play Team-Fortress, any class is support only. So then why should the lerk be a support only class, letting that player only view the action from afar, albiet in argument dramaticly altering the course of battles from its distance, but in still unable to effect much without support. No player, or atleast very few, play a game simply to stay behind lines, hide in vents or around corners, and merely move back and forth (in and out of line of fire) supporting the other players who are doing the work, and so no player should be forced into such a position. With this new flight system, lerks have become more cost effective and atleast more desirable to play, because they can fly unrestricted. Thus, the community would be encouraged to play as the lerk, and perhaps one more encouraging feature would help encourage growth in the community as well.
It is the reasons people play the game that must be taken into consideration. This new system gives the lerk, as a class, more dynamics. Opening up celerity to the aggressive player, as well as enhancing its support role with adrenaline, and even benifitting the stealthy players by making silence a more viable upgrade. It also opens up the lerk to more dynamic strategies. Allowing for it to have a mid-late game usefullness if a team starts with Sensory towers, instead of Defense towers. Plus, at the bottom line, it makes it a much easier class to play as.
However, in light of its added ease in playability players have found ways to exploit or undermine its inherent benificial effects. Before a compromise is reached, first both sides must understand what is causing the problem leading to the conflict in the first place. This new, 0 cost, flight system has caused upset in Classic games as well as Combat due to the exploit known as "pancaking" as well as the difficulty in overcoming larger groups of lerks. After reading and considering the arguments put forth, as well as my own experience in playing the lerk in 1.0, 2.0, and now 3.0, I believe it is not the flight system that is what needs to change now, but the weapons that the lerk has availabe and when they are available. --Spores is a highly effective attack for A)dispursing or otherwise assualting groups of marines B) wearing down armor and health (especially usefull in the face of armor upgrades, jet packs, and med pack spam) and C) Limiting the effectivness of the marines more powerful weapons, with the arguable exception of the Grenade Launcher. However, with the new flight system, "pancaking" has allowed players with scripts or other binds (or even fast hands) to, in extreme, assualt the entire marine team while minimizing the damage recieved due to its flight path and speed. Consider this: Spores is an area attack, a pancaking lerk does not have time nor skill, without considerable outside aid (i.e. aimbots) to make precise attacks while "pancaking". So then, it would be almost pointless for a lerk to "pancake" if it was unable effectivly attack while doing so. In this light, it is not the flight system that is the problem, but it is Spores itself. --Further, an early game lerk rush without spores is not as effective as with spores, because no single lerk would be able to assault multiple marines at once. Rendering this strategy Tactically ineffective and wasteful. Again, spores seems to be the problem.
*Also, some have attributed the lerks new changes to overpowering the aliens in Combat. On this note, I would ask any to consider these facts: 1) both teams' spawn rates have been limited to one at any interval, dispite team size. 2) focus is very effective at quickly killing multiple marines, when used effectively, especially when used by multiple aliens. From most Combat games that I have played in 3.0b4, it has been the use of focus that has ended the game, not the lerk's 0 cost flight system. Another discussion for another thread, but here it is merely a response to a presented idea.*
In this rather long post, I have discussed the benifits as well as deteriments of the recent changes to the Lerk Class. However, now having shared the objects of my consideration, I present a compromise that both sides my find acceptable and fitting. A disclaimer for my above opinions, however, is that we must all consider why people choose to play this game, my reason are my own, just as yours are your own, I cannot tell you what anyone else's reasons for playing are, I can merely suppose, and consider based on my own reasons and opinions. I have strived to consider all sides of this debate, and in doing so hope to be able to find a solution as well as present it, and its arguments, in a non-offensive way to any.
All being said, I ask you to consider this:
-Replace Spores with Spikes, and combine spores and umbra to "spumbra". Making then Spikes the second weapon, for hive one, and "spumbra" the third weapon, for hive two. Spikes, being a precise distance attack, would limit the lerk's ability to assualt groups of marines, and thus reducing the effects of multiple lerks, while at the same time rendering the "pancaking" manuver pointless. This would enforce the support role the lerk plays in both compeditive and public play for both Classic and Combat, I believe. But at the same time, it would reduce the exploitability of the new flight system, while still giving more agressive players the flexibility to, well, get their hands dirty early in the game. Consider this weapon replacement (1. Bite 2. Spikes 3. Spumbra 4. Primal Scream) with the arguments I have already made as well as any you deem considerable. In my mind, this compromise would balance the lerk's power, without diminishing its role or playability.
I hope this has helped atleast further a productive and reasonable resolution to this problem. It is my belief that too many times in the past, players have merely voiced what they dislike, without considering why they dislike it, or what changes they would be willing to compromise with. So consider, comment, and suggest changes or compromises that you believe would both balance any class, weapon, or upgrade, without diminishing its value or the fun of other players. Because in the end, we are all playing to have fun, so that is without argument, the most important consideration one can make.
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 25 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 25 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 26 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 26 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Apr 25 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just aim, jesus. Its not impossible to kill a pancaking lerk, you just have to..............aim Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he knows what he is talking about, he is one of the best lerks, and is using the said technique often. He often has 20/0 kills. Still, he is true, 3 marines that aim + got some spam and he is dead in no time .. Its just a flying skulk nothing more.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My comment was ignorant and out of line, sorry Svision. However, it's my personal opinion that the Lerk is now so much more than a skulk. Due to bunny hop scripts, Lerks are now able to go MUCH faster (about 10x) for an infinite amount of time. Aiming and shooting seems like a simple solution, and it is but what I think you're failing to take into account is the fact that Half-Life's netcode is far from perfect. Also due to the fact that NS sometimes like to think that players are metal walls which give off sparks, it can make that simple solution rather difficult.
As a long time lerk user, I think it's way too good now. There is no point to get adrenaline now. There is also no need to glide anymore except to be a little quieter. The old setup at least required some skill to not be caught low with no energy and not have enough to get out of there. Now just do whatever you want because you will never run out of energy. Adren has no use now.
I love the lerk, but it just feels like I'm cheating now...it's way too good now.
^^ I also apologize for my somewhat arrogant post, as i myself prolly couldnt hit a lerk if he was going up and down like a mad elevator, but my point is, other people can. My initial anger in my original post was a result of seeing so many people, so ruthlessly bashing a change that has benefitted the aliens greatly. People now have something worthy of fighting back the marines early on, and i mean before fades can show up, which results in less marine-dominant games simply because the marines are capable of shooting 9 bullets into a skulk. Lerk can fight / hold back the marines, but wont stop a determined attack.
and as Licho said...its a more versatile, flying skulk with a lil hp boost. imho.
Ive pretty much played lerk non-stop since beta4 (thats loads of hours within 2 days) and although 80% of the marines seemed to have troubles, the 20% that can hit lerks are all you need on a team....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Replace Spores with Spikes, and combine spores and umbra to "spumbra". Making then Spikes the second weapon, for hive one, and "spumbra" the third weapon, for hive two. Spikes, being a precise distance attack, would limit the lerk's ability to assualt groups of marines, and thus reducing the effects of multiple lerks, while at the same time rendering the "pancaking" manuver pointless. This would enforce the support role the lerk plays in both compeditive and public play for both Classic and Combat, I believe. But at the same time, it would reduce the exploitability of the new flight system, while still giving more agressive players the flexibility to, well, get their hands dirty early in the game. Consider this weapon replacement (1. Bite 2. Spikes 3. Spumbra 4. Primal Scream) with the arguments I have already made as well as any you deem considerable. In my mind, this compromise would balance the lerk's power, without diminishing its role or playability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> other than the fact that spumbra is a TERRIBLE name, I like this idea. Spores and umbra are almost always used in totally different situations, they would almost never be a duel advantage as the same weapon (except maby on the hive in combat), I think definatly make it a slot 3 weapon though. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ive pretty much played lerk non-stop since beta4 (thats loads of hours within 2 days) and although 80% of the marines seemed to have troubles, the 20% that can hit lerks are all you need on a team....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lerks arne't that hard to kill, at some point they have to fly at a straight line at you, and thats when you fill em with lead and leap aside at the last second.
either that or raise the cost of lerk to 40 res so they dont appear so quickly. New lerk is almost as effective as fade now anyways, cost should be closer.
[ReD]GreyRaven - I like most of what you said, but I do not think changing the weapons available to the lerk will fully address the problem of "pancaking". This is because when i see a pancaking lerk it is not the spores I am afraid of its his bite. Because of the rediculous movements he is now able to make I can not touch him for the most part until he is right next to me, and unless I have a shotgun(and that won't always save you) I am a dead man.
I like the new freedom the no cost flight now gives you, but the flying up and down like a maniac has to go. I like cwag's idea of a cooldown, but another possible solution might be to make the lerk sensitive to falling damage. This way he could still get up to speed rather quickly, but if he wants to fly at the cieling and floor like crazy it will kill him.
I think it was an excellent idea, because it does make the lerk so much more useful. It just needs to be tweaked a little.
<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Apr 25 2004, 09:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Apr 25 2004, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All I know is that combat is quickly becoming almost unplayable for marines. Solve it however you want, but solve it fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only reason it messes up combat is because people expolit the flying speeds.
@Buggy: Noone can hit one due to any amount of aiming skill - you can though, hit it with smart placement (only if it follows you into a bad spot though). For example going into tighter corridors or in some other way getting a spot where you can assume he'll be in your line of fire for a split second - then just shoot until you get lucky. Its either that or a split second mistake in a small room.
Anyways, lets say a Lerk hits a high ceiling in about 0.2 seconds or less. Lets take the 40 FPS I usually get in small fights on my machine. That makes 8/40 frames in that second - if this high ceiling is roughly 1000 units high, that would mean one frame every 125 halflife units. Even if this is overblown, we're still talking large jumps from frame to frame - and unlike say leaping, which can reach about 70-80% that speed, this goes in a vertical line - meaning you have to track the whole displacement, whereas a leaping Skulk can just get bigger in your perspective, regardless of his high speed.
So its fair to say, learning to shoot isn't going to do you much good unless the Lerk makes a mistake and goes into normal 525/750 manuevering.
@Topic: I still haven't heard one good reason for keeping flap-spammage, regardless of vertical cap speed. It makes the Lerk more accessible? The Lerk was the most accessible NS creature, due to him not requiring any knowledge of the half-life engine, but just intuitive action like in some sort of heavily over-simplified flightsim.
The (hive 1) Lerk has become stronger ? No he hasn't, the main reason the Hive 1 Lerk died was his topspeed - he had plenty of energy to takeoff with half a tank, attempt to dodge and make for an exit under fire. The problem was, he didn't have the speed anywhere but vertical to make this effective. <b>Hive 1 Lerks still were a highly effective class.</b> Not just because of Spores, but because of their ability to scout out the map and go into melee attacks at favorable locations (meaning anywhere approach/escape was simplified, you could pretty safely engage a few guys). The Hive 2 Lerk is obviously noticably improved regardless of vertical exploits, as Celerity+buttonmashing = win.
The Lerk now "has more upgrade options" ? What in the world would make anyone say this? Its the polar opposite - every upgrade except Celerity has been discouraged heavily now. Silence was the only one that never was overly popular, but useful none the less. Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy with Celerity for invulnerability right in Marine Spawn.
Meh, just sit back and wait I guess. Its still sad to have the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT AT A GUY AND PWN HIM!" crowd demand Lerk boosts to the point where its a mindless task. Why don't we boost the Onos to be invulnerable from any direction but his **** now too, because he seems like a total waste of 75 res. After all who wants to be hanging back and carefully stomping all game, thats no fun.
im a fan of lerk right since i started playing in 2.0 But i say its better for combat because take a map like stargate x-t9 the part outside that has a big hole is excelent for lerks, especialy when u have 2/3 lerks teasing marines by flyin around em. I think it isnt as fun but where im quite a good lerk player i say all the skilled players we shouldnt realy care what hapens to the lerks energy[especialy when its unlimited] because we can handle lerks better than any other players.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+Apr 25 2004, 10:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Apr 25 2004, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's take away the energy cost of blink while we're at it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or better yet, no more fuel needed for jp's... it's only fair...
With the current trend of the betas, this is a shoe-in for beta5 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why was the lerk given no adrenaline usage for flying?
The answers would be simple. First it would be to promote the usage of abilityies in midflight. Don't you hate those times where you are flying, and need to support your teammates? You try to shoot an umbra cloud, but it doesn't pop out. At all. This is one of the reasons for lerks having no energy cost for flying.
The second would be the make other movement upgrades in NS viable. While Celerity and Silence were good options for lekrs, they gimped the lerk unnecessarily, making it mandatory for lerks to take Adrenaline, or risk dying due to not having energy while flying.
While there could be a middle option for fixing lerks, will it be worth it by making Adrenaline mandatory for lerks again, and take away their other options?
If anything, it's just pancaking that's supposed to be fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While there could be a middle option for fixing lerks, will it be worth it by making Adrenaline mandatory for lerks again, and take away their other options?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks. They're simply 2 different roles - in b3 you could either support as a preference with Adrenaline, and be a bit too slow to get into HMG/Shotty fights or have Celerity and get the ability to fight pretty much anywhere you please but not being able to Umbra/Spore spam constantly (it was in fact still good enough for the casual support role though, like saving a Hive).
I dare say most people that say adren was mandatory just haven't bothered to get the hang of energy conservation. Your exapmle is just a prime of this "You're flying, but you don't have the energy for an Umbra" - what? <b>If you can't glide through a map from a support position without using energy, you're doing something seriously wrong</b>.
If you're under fire, not just does flapping cost fairly little energy opposed to other Lerk abilities (Umbra, Bite, Spore mostly), but you probably also don't want to go through the trouble of shooting an Umbra then. Useage of abilities midflight was just fine - the main discouraging factor was that flight would always be forward no matter how slow, which is not desirable for a support role. Hence why you see support lerks <b>sitting</b> in vents. Not because they don't have the energy to glide.
You could argue that <b>bite</b>, due to the frequent use required to kill someone, took too much energy (4 bites for an A1 marine without meds). Again that would be just a tad misguided, because <i>energy consumptions were only indirectly the problem to melee lerking</i>. It was the fact that when connecting with a marine, you'd have to <b>veer off and use 1-2 flaps to accelerate out of the sharp turn</b> making killing tedious due to the high amount of bites required (assuming ns_classic lerks, not combat monsters) or face coming to a stop and worst of all being an easy target and having to re-takeoff.
The biggest obstacle to lerking back then was getting an effective approach-n-takeoff pattern that would plan the inevitable stop required to do serious damage at little energy cost, and then takeoff quickly and cheaply again. It still wasn't very hard though, once you got the idea of aiming up at 45-90 degrees (depending on wether you were going to just evade or joust back at the marine).
Your margin for error when doing any of this obviously shot through the roof once you had a 2nd Hive, thanks to Celerity. And unless you were asked to be a dedicated supporter, there was really little reason to ever use Adrenaline. While I support <b>tweaking ever so slightly</b> the old Lerks behavior in regards to melee, saying he "couldn't use his abilitys while flying" or was "weak at 1 Hive because he was energy starved" is utter bollocks. He was weak and breakable because of a 525 maximum airspeed at Hive1, not because he lacked the energy to maintain it (he in fact, had plenty of energy post-takeoff).
Comments
Bhopping, a skulk feature, would get even more complained about because people couldn't do it. Leave bhopping alone.
Perhaps add a small "cooldown" after each flap?
the same way there is a max firing rate for the pistol there should be a max flapping rate. it should be about the the speed that you could repeatdly hit jump the fastest.
the jumpscripts which give you instant top speed is what makes it exploitable
other solutions i've heard that might work are ..let lerks take fall damage so you cant accelerate into to floors and ceilings without consequence
the lerk is finally fun,effective but not invincible. i say dont go back to the old lerk..there needs to be some comprimise. there are counters for lerks.. like turrets (finally a real reason to build em) and GLs and shottys in tight quarters.
previously alien strats (especially competive play) depended too heavily on fades whihc was kinda boring and repetetive.
But I like the lerk ... now it's not just a flimsy waste of 30 res. Wasn't seeing many effective lerks in previous versions without movement upgrades (which generally meant 2 hives, assuming the usual d-m-s hierarchy). By which time 'rines had plenty of armour/weapon upgrades and lerks were only much use for umbra-ing an onos/sporing. Although the support role is (rightly) still the most important thing, a lerk isn't crippled by having to keep 1 eye fixed on the energy bar while attempting some sort of hit-and-run tactic early on.
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Pancaking needs a nerf for reasons that are relatively obvious. Even beyond that though I think Lerk flight cost needs to be brought back, if a little less than it was before. Besides pancaking, with new flight there's no finesse in Lerk flight. There's no point to gliding; people constantly spam the flap button in order to maintain max speed and it's just stupid. A small energy cost needs to be maintained in order to discourage people from flapping their brains out, but it should be small enough to be basically free to someone who knows how to fly properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, a little cost would go a long way. There may still be pancaking lerks but they would eventually have to stop for the adrenaline, and those that either can't master it like peopl ekeep demanding you do, or aren't coordinated enough, can still get the full benefit without having to worry about running out of adrenaline so quickly.
It adds nothing, it fixes nothing.
The End.
Next to that, he had the best support abilitys, was a great scout and available extremely early into the game. Its the last thing to ever have been a 'waste of 30 res' - the amount of competition matches Lerks were used in is living proof of that.
Right now, all the beautiful lerking of B3 is down the crapper and replaced by flapspamming and pancake manuevers. Not a hint of energy management, gliding, conserving momentum or anything. Flaptimers won't solve any of this either.
If theres a solution to it, revert energy cost to B3 levels, but work on the takeoff/landing routines a bit. Possibly make the first airborne flap cheaper or stronger than before to avoid 'stalled' Lerks. Alternatively make bites cheaper, giving the Lerk a whole new range of additional usefulness without uberising him like right now - or 25-50 more base speed (as thats his main weakness at Hive 1, the speed).
Tons of ways to tweak the Lerk without removing the thought involved in using him.
Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_
If were gonna allow lerks to fly at max speed 100% of the time anyways why not just bring down the glide drag? If you can't figure out how to glide, you haven't put any time into learning the lerk anyways. I really don't understand the need for reducing flap cost to zero...
(and in competive play dying as a higher lifeform is not really exceptable)
while the fade always has enough enrgy to blink away..why should a lerk fall out of the sky when he has no energy
the energy requirments are almost certainly going to be put back in i just hope they are lower than the were at beta3.
anpther problem with lerk is any turn you make you lose all momentum , so you have to flap again ..which puts a damper on any evasive flying
Just things I've noticed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I have seen that, that needs to be fixed, and I'm seeing people doing it with fade too now...
Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave.
Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he knows what he is talking about, he is one of the best lerks, and is using the said technique often. He often has 20/0 kills. Still, he is true, 3 marines that aim + got some spam and he is dead in no time .. Its just a flying skulk nothing more..
- previous lerk was NOT FUN to use. You had to be in vent, crawl behind some other aliens and if you had no cover/made little mistake, you died in instant
- previous lerk was only used in clan play because of spore and consequently umbra ability. It was not fun to be lerk and it was very hard.
- lerk is still just a bigger skulk,slower than leaping skulk, and dies very quickly to anything bigger than lmg. Even lmg fire from 3 marines kills lerk in tiny fraction of second.
- to be hard-to-hit lerk must move quickly and just spore, with some random finishing bites to rines + occasionally retreating to regenerate, such lerk is not so big threat, even though it reduces armor upgrades and drains some res from rines.
- lerk, unlike fade, still needs some support from other aliens. It needs DC and more aliens around to be effective and not die quickly
- rines were overpowered early, basically killing all the skulks and owning all the res, with quick lvl2 armor rines required 4 bites from skulks. New lerk helps balance this.
- if you still think lerk is so unbalanced, play it against good rines, no matter what, eventually you die, faster than with fade..
- i play commander a lot and i know lerk can cause troubles, but rines are still winning good deal of games even if aliens are using multiple early lerks. Added lerks just improve balance and cause more interesting games with not so many obvious 5-10 minute rine wins i was used to..
As far as Combat goes, only really really crappy players had energy problems. The beta3 lerk is 100% perfect and in no need of changes. Any changes past beta3 and the lerk becomes better than it needs to be. Same thing with SuperArmoredRegenFades.
As far as Classic goes, sure the lerk is weaker being able to get only one thing from the movement tree, but that goes for all alien classes too. They can still fly and glide around and do what they do best, which is hit and run. And they can do it fine, again, unless you're crappy :)
The problem with lerks in Classic isn't that they can't fly around enough, it's that they can't get enough upgrades to make them really really good. A lerk with focus, armor, regen, speed, and adren is a powerful beast unlike any other.
I'm a big lerk player, so make it better and great, I'll do better. But it is less fun this way, it doesn't make sense, and I don't think the game needs it.
In my personal opinion, I believe that the change in energy cost for lerk flight has bennifited the class greatly. Many have said, not just in this post, that in 3.0b3, the lerk was a waste of 30 resources without additional hives, defense towers, and movement towers. Many have also said, in response to the change, that the lerk was a very effective support class for 30 resources and the reduction of flight cost has given lerks an unfair advantage due to the exploitability of its speed (i.e. "pancaking"). I can see and understand the validity of both sides of the argument, exploitablilty vs. usefullness has plagued the lerk since 1.0. However I think a resolution which would solve many of the problems seen here is simple to reach, and could perhaps be a very suitable compromise for both sides. I present my arguments as follows:
The new, 0 cost, flight system for the Lerk is highly desirable, in terms of playability. In the past the lerk has always been restricted in terms of what upgrades it chooses.
--In versions 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0, a lerk could easily end up dead if players didnt choose correct upgrades. Defense Chambers give the lerk armor which in recent versions has been vital, but discrepince lies with the player, choosing regeneration is also benificial, but playing style is less agressive. Movement chambers were vital because the lerk can quickly run out of adrenaline while trying to A)fly B)spore/umbra and C)bite/spike, depending on the version you're playing. However, with 2.0 the lerk also was had a slower maximum flight speed, requiring higher energy management if celerity is chosen, or movement chambers are unavailable, this also contributed to the lerk becoming a less agressive, and more supportive class.
The game's developer's must also take another factor into account, and for this discussion so should we. This is of course the actual desire of a player to use the class.
--Natural Selection is a Team Based game, true. However, Counter-Strike, Team-Fortress, and most other Half-Life multiplayer modifications are as well. It is not fair to say that when you play Team-Fortress, any class is support only. So then why should the lerk be a support only class, letting that player only view the action from afar, albiet in argument dramaticly altering the course of battles from its distance, but in still unable to effect much without support. No player, or atleast very few, play a game simply to stay behind lines, hide in vents or around corners, and merely move back and forth (in and out of line of fire) supporting the other players who are doing the work, and so no player should be forced into such a position. With this new flight system, lerks have become more cost effective and atleast more desirable to play, because they can fly unrestricted. Thus, the community would be encouraged to play as the lerk, and perhaps one more encouraging feature would help encourage growth in the community as well.
It is the reasons people play the game that must be taken into consideration. This new system gives the lerk, as a class, more dynamics. Opening up celerity to the aggressive player, as well as enhancing its support role with adrenaline, and even benifitting the stealthy players by making silence a more viable upgrade. It also opens up the lerk to more dynamic strategies. Allowing for it to have a mid-late game usefullness if a team starts with Sensory towers, instead of Defense towers. Plus, at the bottom line, it makes it a much easier class to play as.
However, in light of its added ease in playability players have found ways to exploit or undermine its inherent benificial effects. Before a compromise is reached, first both sides must understand what is causing the problem leading to the conflict in the first place. This new, 0 cost, flight system has caused upset in Classic games as well as Combat due to the exploit known as "pancaking" as well as the difficulty in overcoming larger groups of lerks. After reading and considering the arguments put forth, as well as my own experience in playing the lerk in 1.0, 2.0, and now 3.0, I believe it is not the flight system that is what needs to change now, but the weapons that the lerk has availabe and when they are available.
--Spores is a highly effective attack for A)dispursing or otherwise assualting groups of marines B) wearing down armor and health (especially usefull in the face of armor upgrades, jet packs, and med pack spam) and C) Limiting the effectivness of the marines more powerful weapons, with the arguable exception of the Grenade Launcher. However, with the new flight system, "pancaking" has allowed players with scripts or other binds (or even fast hands) to, in extreme, assualt the entire marine team while minimizing the damage recieved due to its flight path and speed. Consider this: Spores is an area attack, a pancaking lerk does not have time nor skill, without considerable outside aid (i.e. aimbots) to make precise attacks while "pancaking". So then, it would be almost pointless for a lerk to "pancake" if it was unable effectivly attack while doing so. In this light, it is not the flight system that is the problem, but it is Spores itself.
--Further, an early game lerk rush without spores is not as effective as with spores, because no single lerk would be able to assault multiple marines at once. Rendering this strategy Tactically ineffective and wasteful. Again, spores seems to be the problem.
*Also, some have attributed the lerks new changes to overpowering the aliens in Combat. On this note, I would ask any to consider these facts: 1) both teams' spawn rates have been limited to one at any interval, dispite team size. 2) focus is very effective at quickly killing multiple marines, when used effectively, especially when used by multiple aliens. From most Combat games that I have played in 3.0b4, it has been the use of focus that has ended the game, not the lerk's 0 cost flight system. Another discussion for another thread, but here it is merely a response to a presented idea.*
In this rather long post, I have discussed the benifits as well as deteriments of the recent changes to the Lerk Class. However, now having shared the objects of my consideration, I present a compromise that both sides my find acceptable and fitting. A disclaimer for my above opinions, however, is that we must all consider why people choose to play this game, my reason are my own, just as yours are your own, I cannot tell you what anyone else's reasons for playing are, I can merely suppose, and consider based on my own reasons and opinions. I have strived to consider all sides of this debate, and in doing so hope to be able to find a solution as well as present it, and its arguments, in a non-offensive way to any.
All being said, I ask you to consider this:
-Replace Spores with Spikes, and combine spores and umbra to "spumbra". Making then Spikes the second weapon, for hive one, and "spumbra" the third weapon, for hive two.
Spikes, being a precise distance attack, would limit the lerk's ability to assualt groups of marines, and thus reducing the effects of multiple lerks, while at the same time rendering the "pancaking" manuver pointless. This would enforce the support role the lerk plays in both compeditive and public play for both Classic and Combat, I believe. But at the same time, it would reduce the exploitability of the new flight system, while still giving more agressive players the flexibility to, well, get their hands dirty early in the game. Consider this weapon replacement (1. Bite 2. Spikes 3. Spumbra 4. Primal Scream) with the arguments I have already made as well as any you deem considerable. In my mind, this compromise would balance the lerk's power, without diminishing its role or playability.
I hope this has helped atleast further a productive and reasonable resolution to this problem. It is my belief that too many times in the past, players have merely voiced what they dislike, without considering why they dislike it, or what changes they would be willing to compromise with. So consider, comment, and suggest changes or compromises that you believe would both balance any class, weapon, or upgrade, without diminishing its value or the fun of other players. Because in the end, we are all playing to have fun, so that is without argument, the most important consideration one can make.
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Funny how people start blaming a change of the game when they find out they still suck at ns_ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ignorance is amazing. If you don't know what you're talking about, then leave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he knows what he is talking about, he is one of the best lerks, and is using the said technique often. He often has 20/0 kills. Still, he is true, 3 marines that aim + got some spam and he is dead in no time .. Its just a flying skulk nothing more.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My comment was ignorant and out of line, sorry Svision. However, it's my personal opinion that the Lerk is now so much more than a skulk. Due to bunny hop scripts, Lerks are now able to go MUCH faster (about 10x) for an infinite amount of time. Aiming and shooting seems like a simple solution, and it is but what I think you're failing to take into account is the fact that Half-Life's netcode is far from perfect. Also due to the fact that NS sometimes like to think that players are metal walls which give off sparks, it can make that simple solution rather difficult.
I love the lerk, but it just feels like I'm cheating now...it's way too good now.
and as Licho said...its a more versatile, flying skulk with a lil hp boost. imho.
Ive pretty much played lerk non-stop since beta4 (thats loads of hours within 2 days) and although 80% of the marines seemed to have troubles, the 20% that can hit lerks are all you need on a team....
Spikes, being a precise distance attack, would limit the lerk's ability to assualt groups of marines, and thus reducing the effects of multiple lerks, while at the same time rendering the "pancaking" manuver pointless. This would enforce the support role the lerk plays in both compeditive and public play for both Classic and Combat, I believe. But at the same time, it would reduce the exploitability of the new flight system, while still giving more agressive players the flexibility to, well, get their hands dirty early in the game. Consider this weapon replacement (1. Bite 2. Spikes 3. Spumbra 4. Primal Scream) with the arguments I have already made as well as any you deem considerable. In my mind, this compromise would balance the lerk's power, without diminishing its role or playability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
other than the fact that spumbra is a TERRIBLE name, I like this idea. Spores and umbra are almost always used in totally different situations, they would almost never be a duel advantage as the same weapon (except maby on the hive in combat), I think definatly make it a slot 3 weapon though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ive pretty much played lerk non-stop since beta4 (thats loads of hours within 2 days) and although 80% of the marines seemed to have troubles, the 20% that can hit lerks are all you need on a team....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lerks arne't that hard to kill, at some point they have to fly at a straight line at you, and thats when you fill em with lead and leap aside at the last second.
New lerk is almost as effective as fade now anyways, cost should be closer.
I like the new freedom the no cost flight now gives you, but the flying up and down like a maniac has to go. I like cwag's idea of a cooldown, but another possible solution might be to make the lerk sensitive to falling damage. This way he could still get up to speed rather quickly, but if he wants to fly at the cieling and floor like crazy it will kill him.
I think it was an excellent idea, because it does make the lerk so much more useful. It just needs to be tweaked a little.
The only reason it messes up combat is because people expolit the flying speeds.
Noone can hit one due to any amount of aiming skill - you can though, hit it with smart placement (only if it follows you into a bad spot though). For example going into tighter corridors or in some other way getting a spot where you can assume he'll be in your line of fire for a split second - then just shoot until you get lucky. Its either that or a split second mistake in a small room.
Anyways, lets say a Lerk hits a high ceiling in about 0.2 seconds or less. Lets take the 40 FPS I usually get in small fights on my machine. That makes 8/40 frames in that second - if this high ceiling is roughly 1000 units high, that would mean one frame every 125 halflife units. Even if this is overblown, we're still talking large jumps from frame to frame - and unlike say leaping, which can reach about 70-80% that speed, this goes in a vertical line - meaning you have to track the whole displacement, whereas a leaping Skulk can just get bigger in your perspective, regardless of his high speed.
So its fair to say, learning to shoot isn't going to do you much good unless the Lerk makes a mistake and goes into normal 525/750 manuevering.
@Topic:
I still haven't heard one good reason for keeping flap-spammage, regardless of vertical cap speed. It makes the Lerk more accessible? The Lerk was the most accessible NS creature, due to him not requiring any knowledge of the half-life engine, but just intuitive action like in some sort of heavily over-simplified flightsim.
The (hive 1) Lerk has become stronger ? No he hasn't, the main reason the Hive 1 Lerk died was his topspeed - he had plenty of energy to takeoff with half a tank, attempt to dodge and make for an exit under fire. The problem was, he didn't have the speed anywhere but vertical to make this effective. <b>Hive 1 Lerks still were a highly effective class.</b> Not just because of Spores, but because of their ability to scout out the map and go into melee attacks at favorable locations (meaning anywhere approach/escape was simplified, you could pretty safely engage a few guys). The Hive 2 Lerk is obviously noticably improved regardless of vertical exploits, as Celerity+buttonmashing = win.
The Lerk now "has more upgrade options" ? What in the world would make anyone say this? Its the polar opposite - every upgrade except Celerity has been discouraged heavily now. Silence was the only one that never was overly popular, but useful none the less. Right now you're a fool if you don't exploit the infinite flight energy with Celerity for invulnerability right in Marine Spawn.
Meh, just sit back and wait I guess. Its still sad to have the "OGM CANT FLY STRAIGHT AT A GUY AND PWN HIM!" crowd demand Lerk boosts to the point where its a mindless task. Why don't we boost the Onos to be invulnerable from any direction but his **** now too, because he seems like a total waste of 75 res. After all who wants to be hanging back and carefully stomping all game, thats no fun.
Nay in combat: 2 levels & u get annoying <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> flying everywhere.
But i say its better for combat because take a map like stargate x-t9
the part outside that has a big hole is excelent for lerks, especialy when u have 2/3 lerks teasing marines by flyin around em. I think it isnt as fun but where im quite a good lerk player i say all the skilled players we shouldnt realy care what hapens to the lerks energy[especialy when its unlimited] because we can handle lerks better than any other players.
Or better yet, no more fuel needed for jp's... it's only fair...
With the current trend of the betas, this is a shoe-in for beta5 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why was the lerk given no adrenaline usage for flying?
The answers would be simple. First it would be to promote the usage of abilityies in midflight. Don't you hate those times where you are flying, and need to support your teammates? You try to shoot an umbra cloud, but it doesn't pop out. At all. This is one of the reasons for lerks having no energy cost for flying.
The second would be the make other movement upgrades in NS viable. While Celerity and Silence were good options for lekrs, they gimped the lerk unnecessarily, making it mandatory for lerks to take Adrenaline, or risk dying due to not having energy while flying.
While there could be a middle option for fixing lerks, will it be worth it by making Adrenaline mandatory for lerks again, and take away their other options?
If anything, it's just pancaking that's supposed to be fixed.
Adrenaline has never been and never will be mandatory for Lerks. They're simply 2 different roles - in b3 you could either support as a preference with Adrenaline, and be a bit too slow to get into HMG/Shotty fights or have Celerity and get the ability to fight pretty much anywhere you please but not being able to Umbra/Spore spam constantly (it was in fact still good enough for the casual support role though, like saving a Hive).
I dare say most people that say adren was mandatory just haven't bothered to get the hang of energy conservation. Your exapmle is just a prime of this "You're flying, but you don't have the energy for an Umbra" - what? <b>If you can't glide through a map from a support position without using energy, you're doing something seriously wrong</b>.
If you're under fire, not just does flapping cost fairly little energy opposed to other Lerk abilities (Umbra, Bite, Spore mostly), but you probably also don't want to go through the trouble of shooting an Umbra then. Useage of abilities midflight was just fine - the main discouraging factor was that flight would always be forward no matter how slow, which is not desirable for a support role. Hence why you see support lerks <b>sitting</b> in vents. Not because they don't have the energy to glide.
You could argue that <b>bite</b>, due to the frequent use required to kill someone, took too much energy (4 bites for an A1 marine without meds). Again that would be just a tad misguided, because <i>energy consumptions were only indirectly the problem to melee lerking</i>. It was the fact that when connecting with a marine, you'd have to <b>veer off and use 1-2 flaps to accelerate out of the sharp turn</b> making killing tedious due to the high amount of bites required (assuming ns_classic lerks, not combat monsters) or face coming to a stop and worst of all being an easy target and having to re-takeoff.
The biggest obstacle to lerking back then was getting an effective approach-n-takeoff pattern that would plan the inevitable stop required to do serious damage at little energy cost, and then takeoff quickly and cheaply again. It still wasn't very hard though, once you got the idea of aiming up at 45-90 degrees (depending on wether you were going to just evade or joust back at the marine).
Your margin for error when doing any of this obviously shot through the roof once you had a 2nd Hive, thanks to Celerity. And unless you were asked to be a dedicated supporter, there was really little reason to ever use Adrenaline. While I support <b>tweaking ever so slightly</b> the old Lerks behavior in regards to melee, saying he "couldn't use his abilitys while flying" or was "weak at 1 Hive because he was energy starved" is utter bollocks. He was weak and breakable because of a 525 maximum airspeed at Hive1, not because he lacked the energy to maintain it (he in fact, had plenty of energy post-takeoff).