Why Defence First?
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I don't understand this one...</div> Recently from playing a mixture of NS and CO I find myself wondering why people always chose defence first over movement. As far as I am concerend movement is the best first hive chamber for 3 reasons.
1. Celerity owns regen, cara and redempt for skulks and gorges, which are in all likely hood the only lifeforms you need to worry about at hive one.
2. You can warp to your 2nd hive if its attacked while building, if you get defence you probably can't get there at all unless the marine team is rediculously incompetent, and then even if you do, chances are those extra 20 points of armor arn't gonna save the hive anyways.
3. Unlike sensory it doesn't screw over early fades/onos, you want your first to hive to be move/def or visa versa anyways to support these higher lifeforms when they start to appear on the map right around 2nd hive (which shouldn't be much trouble to defend since you can warp there anyways if it under attack)
These three reasons alone have me pretty much convinced that movement is the best first chamber, but then you can even add to that the possibilty of a gorge rush since you have 3 move down anyways.
1. Celerity owns regen, cara and redempt for skulks and gorges, which are in all likely hood the only lifeforms you need to worry about at hive one.
2. You can warp to your 2nd hive if its attacked while building, if you get defence you probably can't get there at all unless the marine team is rediculously incompetent, and then even if you do, chances are those extra 20 points of armor arn't gonna save the hive anyways.
3. Unlike sensory it doesn't screw over early fades/onos, you want your first to hive to be move/def or visa versa anyways to support these higher lifeforms when they start to appear on the map right around 2nd hive (which shouldn't be much trouble to defend since you can warp there anyways if it under attack)
These three reasons alone have me pretty much convinced that movement is the best first chamber, but then you can even add to that the possibilty of a gorge rush since you have 3 move down anyways.
Comments
Movement doesn't give much greater advantages. Let's take the Onos as an example again. With Silence, you surely can pop at them, devour one, run away, but you're short on the speed and can't regenerate health. With Celerity, you can run fast, but only slightly faster than a marine. Through in the insane amount of health needed to be healed, and you'll see where we're going. Adrenaline? You can just gore more, more of a deathwish without any form of healing.
For senories, they give a stealth advantage, but is it worth it? Again, with the Onos. You've got SoF, and you're injured. You see a marine and try to run from him, but he manages to still get you because you're just too slow. Cloaking doesn't work, as your big frame gives your position anyway. Focus isn't even worth for the Onos.
As for DCs, let's look at it. Carapace allows you to live a wee bit longer, but not much of an advantage because you lack healing. Redemption can save you from time to time, but it's not to be fully trusted.
Then there's Regeneration. Why the new paragraph for it? Because it simply is the best upgrade for an Onos. While you get injured, you can still heal mid-combat. Throw in the fact that the Onos has a big lump of HP and AP to boon, and you'll see that unless the Onos has sustained very heavy fire, the Onos can simply run away, regenerate lost HP and AP, and come back. Next thing you know, you're in his stomach.
However, thats not to say def first isnt important.
If you get your second hive underway at the same time the fades kick in, ,you have (dont quote my figures) 2-3 mins before they get the regen..
no regen (or cara+meta if your so inclined) on fades is very harsh.
and What if your second hive is taken out before the def go down, imagine 3 shotties get to a seige location, good luck clearing them out without def chambers.
so Id say its very risky to go mov first.
on the other hand
silence skulks are fun.
adren gorg rushs are fun.
I dread to think of early celerity lerks now!
If you want some fun and are sure about getting the second hive up, go for it...
Wait till you see silence lerks then. Faster than a bse skulk, but as silent as space.
As skulk I think the movement upgrades are far better then the defence.
Well in combat I always go clerity first. I think making MC's first is actually a good idea, like you said at the start of the game your only gonna have skulks for combat anywayz, and clertiy or silence <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> are far better upgrades then cara. Even with lerks, you do suffer without cara but clerity can compensate.
However (and its a big however), if you dont get a second hive up quickly you are up the creek without a paddle, so to speak. Fades and Onos NEED defence upgrades, without them, you are quite litterally screwed.
So its a gamble really...
Anyway, thats my view, perhaps the servers that ban turret farms in their rules should also ban WOLs, though its a very popular tactic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
eAi
So it's only a few bullets to kill 'im, and I'm not sure if the insta-gib bug has been killed, so DC it has to be. Besides, if it's a 2 hive lockdown, only fades and onos with regen can level eRT's soon enough for it to matter. Everyone knows, on the servers I play, that if the first chamber is any other than DC, it will be a short game thanks to eRT rush. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Second chamber, on the other hand, can be anything, in my opinion. But since SC has been nerfed (longer to cloak, and shorter range?), MC tends to be the second.
The only real reason to get defence first is the fear of not getting a second hive.
No, seriously? Fades biggest, early task is to defend a hive? When marines are rushing the RT's and thus levelling up quick? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While a Fade is more easily adaptable with MCs, Oni aren't. But here's the catch : Fades can't regenerate health in any way with only 1 hive, other than the hive itself or gorges.
While that isn't an issue with Blink, it becomes a much more bigger issue when marines are attacking RTs left and right. In a optimist solution, the Fade should not waste one single second for an RT under attack. Ever. While a failed attack to your hive can be devastating, a bunch of RTs killed withn one minute is even worse with the current res system. Now if the Fade gets damaged with every attempt to thwart marines from destroyinh Rts, he has no time for healing. Remember this is a 1 hive situation with MCs.
With DCs, even without going back to the hive, with Regen, the Fade with DCs can outlive a Fade which has been in the earlier scenario, with MCs.
When put against a hive attack however, MCs work much more well, because they regenerate energy, much eeded for the amount of blinking you need to do. Throw in the fact that the hive heals you, the MCs are a good way for early Fade defense.
The only real reason to get defence first is the fear of not getting a second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really does depend on the level you are playing at, but I would find it amusing to see a fade go up against a Top 20 European team without dcs at Hive one. Mind you, some fades have managed it e.g. Kickarse w/focus.
its like 3 skulks attacking 5 marines with a healspraying gorge right behind them.
1 skulk might die but such skulk armies just rock.
Theres nothing funnier than mc first and half team going adrenaline gorge together, healpray rushing.
gorge needs regeneration OR redemption to stay alive without protection...
Well lerk doesnt need those DC:s as much as others, but if you want to keep it alive...
Fade without DC:s? Fades are usually stepping in @ 3-4 mins after start, and the same time marines have their first upgrades and superiority against 1 hive skulks... so fade's main job is to keep marines away from resnozles and chokepoints. Yeah sure you can take MC fade but you are forced to fight near your hivelocation and spend some time healing while marines advance...
Onos with only MC upgrade can take 1-2 marines quite easily but after that you need to go back to hive for healing( if you want to keep it alive cos theres always the risk of ambush that requires almost full hp to survive). Is it really usefull to take a 75 res lifeform and to be only able to fight few marines per time and using most of the "onos time" running to hive and back to chokepoints?
Also there is the risk that marines will make 2-hivelockdown or take down your second hive... then you will be left with only MC:s and marines will advance easily and capture most of the nodes and aliens usually can make only minor resistance against highly upgraded and equipped marines.
DC is also only solution if you dont have middle hive and marines lock middle hive - then its usually not possible to get to hive on the other side map and hold it.. without DC..
DC is best choice if there is 2 hive lockdown .. regen fade can kill res and with some luck or onos liberate hive
On pub even SC is better than MC .. possible use of MC to get to growing hive under attack is not usefull because once hive is really under attack its usually just a few secs and its down..
I remember many games ruined by MC.. for example recent bast - we have engine and are doing well, killing all res marines got in double and feed, then suddenly gorge builds MC in refinery to transport himself back to hive without consulting team. At same moment marines managed to capture main aft and build TF/turrs/pg outpost there.. Yes we had fades, but without DC they had to run back to hive and were not able to kill outpost. IF you managed to get past it with fade, without DC you eventually died, because there was no safe way back to hive through main aft and little chance to get to vents in double.. So almost won game was lost because of MC..
Sometimes its great to have a change of MC first
D's are generally first for acouple reasons.
1) They were far far superior until 3.0 and people got used to using just them
2) they are the simplest to use and so people with less experience will always prefer these chambers when trying to win
3) Im not sure if this is used that much more often in clan matchs first but if it is I would say thats because many people prefer it for there fade upg.
The number one argument I have heard is that higher lifeforms are ineffective without a defence upgrade. I absolutly agree with this, but I really doubt it applies for the few minutes it takes for the second hive to go up.
If your team knows what it is doing you should have your early fade and your hive building gorge evolving at the same time (assuming the gorge hasn't already evolved earlyer), thus there is no reason that a good team should have a fade without defence chambers for more than 2 minutes anyways. True, if you lose either one of your hives at this point in the game defence is adventagous to have had first, but because of hive warp there is no reason you should lose either of your hives.
Thus I think the argument that fades need defence first is just invalid, there is absolutly no reason they should not be able to handle for 2 minutes without a defence upgrade, I regulary celeb fade on my way to onos in combat and I can vouch for the fact that they are extreamly effective, and hardly crippled by the time it takes them to get back to the hive. In the first two minutes you are putting hives up with defence first, a good chunk of your team is in the new hive to defend it anyways, so to argue that your press is less powerful during this time with movement seems rediculous anyways.
Celerity is a far better upgrade then any of the defence chamber upgrades for hive one skulks and gorges. A good celer skulk has no problem eating teams of armor 0 marines, and a celer gorge actually stands a chance of retreating from a confrontation due to the fact that it actually runs faster than marines. Within the time it takes to put up your 2nd hive I never see a WOL with def chambers in it for any other reason then to put 3 defence chambers on the map. The more I think about it the more I am convinced, movement is the best first chamber for any competent team.
Here is another early game use of dc, that I have actually used. Let's say there is a chokepoint that marines are about to come to, and it leads to a relatively long hallway. Place 1 oc and 1 dc so that the oc can actually reach the end of the hallway where marines are going to come from. The oc can be constantly healed, spit plus the oc will hold off multiple marines (or at least allow you to win the fight when they decide to rush you), and the dc should never be touched. Of course, this won't hold off the entire team, but if it is 2 or 3 marines it will occupy them for quite a while or force them to take a different route.
*cough*
People like to rush because they want action! They dont want to sit on their hands! And to rush successfully, they need things that'll make them last longer and get them to their target faster.
Thus, sensory is useless to the impatient ... eh, it goes on, and on, and on, and on, and...
yeah.]
The number one argument I have heard is that higher lifeforms are ineffective without a defence upgrade. I absolutly agree with this, but I really doubt it applies for the few minutes it takes for the second hive to go up.
If your team knows what it is doing you should have your early fade and your hive building gorge evolving at the same time (assuming the gorge hasn't already evolved earlyer), thus there is no reason that a good team should have a fade without defence chambers for more than 2 minutes anyways. True, if you lose either one of your hives at this point in the game defence is adventagous to have had first, but because of hive warp there is no reason you should lose either of your hives.
Thus I think the argument that fades need defence first is just invalid, there is absolutly no reason they should not be able to handle for 2 minutes without a defence upgrade, I regulary celeb fade on my way to onos in combat and I can vouch for the fact that they are extreamly effective, and hardly crippled by the time it takes them to get back to the hive. In the first two minutes you are putting hives up with defence first, a good chunk of your team is in the new hive to defend it anyways, so to argue that your press is less powerful during this time with movement seems rediculous anyways.
Celerity is a far better upgrade then any of the defence chamber upgrades for hive one skulks and gorges. A good celer skulk has no problem eating teams of armor 0 marines, and a celer gorge actually stands a chance of retreating from a confrontation due to the fact that it actually runs faster than marines. Within the time it takes to put up your 2nd hive I never see a WOL with def chambers in it for any other reason then to put 3 defence chambers on the map. The more I think about it the more I am convinced, movement is the best first chamber for any competent team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is you need the DCs to defend your 2 hives until they are both up. When aliens get 2 hives, unless the marines have been dominating the res game and have a proto lab, it's pretty much the alien's game.
A: if you dont have another hive going up by the time someone is going fade, your screwed.
B: Nothing is worse than loosing your second hive while it is building
C: Best upgrades for skulks and lerks.
D: Silence is the one upgrade that gives all great players trouble because most rely on sound to find the enemy.
E: If you have an onos with 1 hive...............good luck.
F: Celerity fades can escape anything, personally i use cara/celerity as fade. You can get to the hive and get healed faster and back by the time regen has done it.
If this doesnt convince you I dont know what will, and/or your ignorent.
lol so true
+ lmao at some of the other posts
+ lmao still
+ lmao even more now :X
You cant do a gorge rush on your own!
Defence is the best chamber on pubs coz it allows res hoars(i hate you) to become usefull. Without dc at 5mins and 1 hive (all too typical on pubs) fades will start appearing. Undoubtably they will all die. (only nubs would fade with only 1 hive and no chambers) and then leave the server.
By putting up dc you are supporting the nubs and make the pub games more fun