Teamwork will work in public if the team knows that you are teH 1337 Master comm. I mean that they know that they wont lose if they just follow the orders, cause they know that the comm is one of the best and its teams fault if they lose.
If there's a comm who no one even knows they more likely do ignore his commands.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lump+Jul 8 2004, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Jul 8 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jul 8 2004, 05:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jul 8 2004, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BunBun the arms lab should be your third building (besides a possible RT) <b>always</b>... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> telling people how to play, thats nice.. what if your wrong?! ever thought of that one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ask any clanner or experienced player who knows what they're talking about... armor 1 is absoloutely needed as fast as you can get it.
Armour upgrades are a neccesity in an public game. With nubs who can't aim properly it gives em another bite to kill the skulk.
I have found that when playing public games, its really useful to build the three closest resource towers to there hive and slowly recycle em. Its preety funny, because for the first 2 minutes the aliens have no rez towers while u walk around capping the map.
If the aliens are quick off the mark they have to bite the rez towers leaving the rest of the map open.
I said my order of building is this : IP>Armory>OBBS>Arms lab if you read the post through more than the first line. The reason I Get obs up b4 arms is because I Want to get phase tech 20 secs faster. The arms goes up and gets armor 1 almost straight after the obbs.
What u think I'm stupid? Of course nubs need armor 1. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
DUH. What I'm saying is my strategy relies to some point on getting phase tech up for fast access to the key points of the map. Havin a team that will phase also helps lol.
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jul 9 2004, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jul 9 2004, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lump+Jul 8 2004, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Jul 8 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jul 8 2004, 05:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jul 8 2004, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BunBun the arms lab should be your third building (besides a possible RT) <b>always</b>... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> telling people how to play, thats nice.. what if your wrong?! ever thought of that one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ask any clanner or experienced player who knows what they're talking about... armor 1 is absoloutely needed as fast as you can get it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah, rad cause I'm a clanner, and and experienced player and a very experienced comm.... so obviously u gotta say what you know and dont say things like that b4 checking.
PGs first can actaully be very effective, it really depends on the map and the quality of the marine team. Saltzbad's example of ns_nothing is a good one, if you can get a pg down near viaduct early on then it saves your marines making a 30 second trek to even get near a alien res node.
Also, early advanced armory is fun for all, whilst i wouldn't get it over armour 1 personally 3 minute HMGs are VERY effective at stopping skulks. Kit out 2 hmgers and have them walk into the hive and it doesn't matter what level weapons you have, skulks will be dying very quickly and you can spawn camp till you kill the hive very easily.
Despite all that, in a clan match i'd still go with armour1 first just to be on the safe side. Whilst both of the above are effective there's an element of risk that isn't present with early a1. A1 should be done as fast as possible, get your marines to build the armory and then arms lab before IP, no marines should be dying in that time zone so an active IP won't make any difference, 30 second earliar A1 helps all.
Yeah, although the early AA rush is usually just a sort of slower and suckier early MT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The Motion Tracking rush is probably the single biggest A1 alternative. Its a bit riskier, but ends up being only ~20-30 seconds later on average than armor 1 goes active, and lets you basicly sweep the map in no time with a reasonable team. Then you have enough momentum to keep the aliens busy for a long, long time.
I have only one question....why do you think poorly of the 'veteran community'? It seems a valid strat, may not always win, but with enough people pointing at faults, I don't feel I need to. It has its advantages and weaknesses, like every plan. I only wish to know why you believe that the vets will flame you.
I'm gonna disagree slightly with this one. If I was al alien in that situation, I would be thinking (and especially to show why this beloved strat can be problematic) "wow, I'm hungry! those IPs look delicious!!!!" The marines are all over the map at this point getting rts... mmmmmmm! marines are SCREWED. (and yes, mines are avoidable.)
What I usually do is drop an IP and an electrified tf in base, then have them hunt, usually with the builk of marines heading towards the hive furthest from the built hive. The idea is to avoid alien contact when possible. Any rts that aren't near the bulk group of marines get electrifed. (and every time I forget this step, I end up losing them or losing time.)
After they secure 4-5 rts, I drop an armory, arms lab, and obs. I research armor1, for the reasons you stated, and phase tech, and we get a pg up at the hive. The armory gets upgraded shortly.
Then it really depends on the situation; we'll probably go for the second hive, maybe with SGs, or maybe a siege is necesary.
When possible, we'll go for prototype equipment, in most cases Heavy Armor.
We'll get the third hive somehow, depending on the situation.
Oh, one thing I didn't mention, because it often isn't possible on a pub: I'll send (or, this makes me smile--they'll do it on their own) a marine towards the other empty hive, and the dude will lock it down by himself, or maybe just get up a pg. That's a very fast way to screw over the aliens. Ninjas like that make commanding easy.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you were a very experienced comm, you know that phase tech is the most idiotic first research asides from advancing the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If <i>you</i> were an experienced strategy player, you would know that discounting valid early game starts is the easiest to become stale and lose. Your statement is a logical fallacy known as <a href='http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm' target='_blank'>Prejudicial Language</a>. My statement is a known fact, yours is not.
Advancing the armory first is a very difficult early game, but very possible if you can secure two nodes quickly. Advanding the armory in the first 30 seconds of the game does two things: It takes away a midgame upgrade that's moderately expensive, and it speeds up the game's progress. Early game usually ends around the 5-8 minute mark, when the second hive is either going up or is completed. You force the game to be accelerated, because aliens must respond to the sudden appearance of hmgs at the 3 minute mark. This is also a must for a <b>real</b> jetpack or HA rush. Anything past about the 7 minute mark can't be considered a real rush, because it's not being rushed: it's delayed. Aliens are very ill equipped to deal with a jetpack rush on the hive at the 6 minute mark, and if the lateness of other upgrades can be overcome, it usually results in victory.
Phase tech along with armor1 is also another viable early game strategy. This isn't as defensive early game as the AA push, it's much more offensive due to the ability to control the map early. Motion Tracking is similar, allowing you to control the map and force confrontation (Not control it: Only aliens can control confrontation). I say this because marines cannot prevent a confrontation: a skulk can run away from a marine, but a marine can seldom run away from a skulk. However, a marine can force a confrontation by attacking a resnode, which the skulk must respond to or risque losing the node. You know the skulk is coming because you force confrontation by attacking the node, and you know from which direction and generally what speed the skulk is moving at (You can tell if a skulk is walking, running, or bhopping). This gives you an inherent advantage over the skulk. All of these are valid early games, as well as combinations of them.
Look, the odd skulks can always be destroyed by the comm with good base and mine placement.
TheAdj`, I'm sick of your comments. I will explain right now why advancing the armory is one of the worst tactics to do for an early strategy.
Starting out, IP+Armory>advanced.
The problem is with an advanced armory is that it offers no advantages until 3 minutes are up. In both pub AND clan matches, 3 minutes is a lot. For the same purpose, I could get A1 about 2 minutes earlier or motion tracking 1:30 earlier. That time is used to gain an advantage over the aliens. HMGs are good, yes, but shotguns are just as effective in most scenarios as well, not to mention they come right off the bat with the armory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Advancing the armory first is a very difficult early game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is also a must for a real jetpack or HA rush<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you smoking? A protolab alone costs 40 resources and an additional 35-40 res to make it worthwhile. If you opt for heavy armor, that's also 2 minutes you have to wait before THAT becomes effective.
This game (as all RTS games) is a game of economics. Whoever can fade or ugprade and drop shotties as fast as they can, wins. Dominating the early game will always let you dominate the mid and late game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you were an experienced strategy player, you would know that discounting valid early game starts is the easiest to become stale and lose. Your statement is a logical fallacy known as Prejudicial Language. My statement is a known fact, yours is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, there is a difference. I am right, and you are wrong. I've backed up all my arguments, I'm not using rhetoric, but hey, I AM right. Now obviously, you could just use that argument again and say that I still haven't established that my claim is better than yours, and it would go into a vicious cycle until you've lost even more face.
I'll still eat your ips. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> So the comm will get out of the chair to kill the skulk. In that situation,assuming equally-skilled players, the alien has more of a chance of winnign the fight, and then the marines really are screwed. I woulnd't risk any significant chance of that, let alone these odds.
You're assuming that the marines are uber-1337 and the aliens are mediocre.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look, there is a difference. I am right, and you are wrong. I've backed up all my arguments, I'm not using rhetoric, but hey, I AM right. Now obviously, you could just use that argument again and say that I still haven't established that my claim is better than yours, and it would go into a vicious cycle until you've lost even more face. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The famous "I am right you are wrong" defense has rarely failed.
Oh and by the way, you're wrong. Adj speaks nothing but the truth and the way you so arrogantly defended yourself is quite shocking, it's not a very convincing arguement really.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited July 2004
You are sick of my comments because you're an arrogant person who's incorrect, and refuses to admit it. Not only can I advance the armory, I can also have armor1 at the 2.5-3 minute mark, not far behind normal armor1. Once an obs is down I'm holding on for armor2, then phase tech is the next upgrade. This all requires more precision than most commanders can pull off, because screwing up and losing a node is pretty painful, especially if you never got more than 3 nodes. 4 would be even better, but it can be difficult to hold them unless you're holding a double node. It's difficult because it's one of the most challenging early games. Difficult != bad choice. It's difficult to nearly impossible to defend against once a certain point in the game is reached.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wow. In performing this plan you sacrifice certain things in order to attempt to end the game early. It's hard to be screwed for the rest of the game if the game ends in the early game. How can you be screwed if the aliens have a building hive, and that's it? There's multiple ways to execute this strategy. You can either have jetpackers pound a hive, while lights on foot build a phase gates and begin lmg pushing the same hive, or attack another hive at the same time. Aliens will be hard pressed to defend two hives at the same time 6-8 minutes into the game. There's no need to dominate early game if you blitz and end the game before it advances to the midgame. Many games have a strat like this, it sacrifices initial control for a crippling blow at an early point in the game.
If you notice the people that replied under you, they pretty much support what I say. Why, you ask? Because I speak from not only experience of an entire CAL season near the top of my division, but I speak on factual information. You attempt to use logic that's flawed to disprove something that's true. Simply stating "I am right and you are wrong" is obviously another fallacy. Please remove your head from your rear and use a logical, non-arrogant argument. You mentioned in your first post something like "Maybe I won't get flamed by elitists". Your previous post is why you get flamed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll still eat your ips. So the comm will get out of the chair to kill the skulk. In that situation,assuming equally-skilled players, the alien has more of a chance of winnign the fight, and then the marines really are screwed. I woulnd't risk any significant chance of that, let alone these odds<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good com who placed his ip well can 90 percent of the time take the skulks easily.
ha firewater teaching people to com....... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
First IP should be in a position to where when you hop out the chair, it's the first thing you see, and it's as far away as possible, preferrably on another level (most maps have the commchair on an elevated platform of some type: nothing/eclipse for example). Mines should be half on/half off the IP, in a square fashion so that it's impossible to find a blind spot). The idea isn't that mines protect base by themselves (in pubs they often do, skulks hump them like marines hump armories), they simply make the skulk jittery, and when someone fires at them (the comm hopping out the chair, for example), they try to juke away and hit the mine. Mines placed strategically prevent aliens from nubbing a structure down easily. Drop a second pack of mines later to mine the Obs, and place them behind it, so that when the commander hops out of the chair, the skulk can only be chewing on it from the side the commander can see. Always place structures so that a skulk cannot get behind them so you have to chase them as the commander. I get comments on my "wierd base layout" all the time, but for 6 weeks I haven't lost a base structure to a single skulk, or even a pair of them. It's all about making it difficult for them to take advantage of you.
Regardless of how badly rapier7 dug himself into a hole on this thread, I'm gonna have to agree with his original post, it will rape most alien pub teams flat into the ground.
He is 100000% correct, good marines should never lose with this strategy on large games. The only way they could possibly lose this if they suck and can't aim.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 13 2004, 05:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 13 2004, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm gonna have to agree with his original post, it will rape most alien pub teams flat into the ground. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hm, that's the strat i try and use, come to think of it. but i don' t win 100% maybe 35%. maybe less.
it really depends on what your going for. the early, mid tech push is my preferred flavour, since it's clean and fast. no dealing with trains, and ppl welding each other and multiple basesunder attack and a zillion things to worry about. mid level shotties and sieges. good times.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jul 11 2004, 08:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jul 11 2004, 08:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Advancing the armory first is a very difficult early game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it's called..."comeback"
but while playing with you i've learned that it isnt an option for you...if something goes wrong you just gg it and dont try to fix things
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 13 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 13 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of how badly rapier7 dug himself into a hole on this thread, I'm gonna have to agree with his original post, it will rape most alien pub teams flat into the ground.
He is 100000% correct, good marines should never lose with this strategy on large games. The only way they could possibly lose this if they suck and can't aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To be honest, what marine team that has people who can aim and don't suck, lose?
If thats the case, its not the strategy, because any strategy could work.
The trick to great pub commanding is to make guys who aren't very good, feel like they are doing something right/good. Then they start to play better. Great commanders just need players that will cooperate, Pub All stars need good marines to win.
A bad comm with good strats can win, with good marines.
A good comm with bad strats can win, with marines who listen.
A bad comm with bad strats can win, with marines who listen and are good.
A good comm with good strats is a comm who makes the marines into the types of marines he needs. With lesser strats, he can get them to listen. With lesser response times, he can get them to work better as a team, and support each other.
The best comms do this all without thinking.
A good comm also knows when to talk, and when to let those in the field help themselves out. Having a man in the field lead never hurt anyone, so long as his actions are according to the plan of the Comm (Also known as 'The Boss').
That's my view. Also why I never post strats that I like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Azkar+Jul 4 2004, 10:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Azkar @ Jul 4 2004, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jul 4 2004, 10:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jul 4 2004, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In my experience, even the best fades go down to a group of six shotgunners. Always. Without doubt. No variance. Even better if it is at the siege spot where they could blink into a mine or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've never played the best fades then, the best fades wouldent be dumb enough to engage a group of 6 shotgunners. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well in my experience.. the best fades go down to 6 lmg'ers too...
hell....i bet most fades couldbe taken down with 6 pistolers....
Comments
If there's a comm who no one even knows they more likely do ignore his commands.
telling people how to play, thats nice.. what if your wrong?! ever thought of that one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ask any clanner or experienced player who knows what they're talking about... armor 1 is absoloutely needed as fast as you can get it.
I have found that when playing public games, its really useful to build the three closest resource towers to there hive and slowly recycle em. Its preety funny, because for the first 2 minutes the aliens have no rez towers while u walk around capping the map.
If the aliens are quick off the mark they have to bite the rez towers leaving the rest of the map open.
I said my order of building is this : IP>Armory>OBBS>Arms lab if you read the post through more than the first line. The reason I Get obs up b4 arms is because I Want to get phase tech 20 secs faster. The arms goes up and gets armor 1 almost straight after the obbs.
What u think I'm stupid? Of course nubs need armor 1. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
DUH. What I'm saying is my strategy relies to some point on getting phase tech up for fast access to the key points of the map. Havin a team that will phase also helps lol.
telling people how to play, thats nice.. what if your wrong?! ever thought of that one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ask any clanner or experienced player who knows what they're talking about... armor 1 is absoloutely needed as fast as you can get it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah, rad cause I'm a clanner, and and experienced player and a very experienced comm.... so obviously u gotta say what you know and dont say things like that b4 checking.
Also, early advanced armory is fun for all, whilst i wouldn't get it over armour 1 personally 3 minute HMGs are VERY effective at stopping skulks. Kit out 2 hmgers and have them walk into the hive and it doesn't matter what level weapons you have, skulks will be dying very quickly and you can spawn camp till you kill the hive very easily.
Despite all that, in a clan match i'd still go with armour1 first just to be on the safe side. Whilst both of the above are effective there's an element of risk that isn't present with early a1. A1 should be done as fast as possible, get your marines to build the armory and then arms lab before IP, no marines should be dying in that time zone so an active IP won't make any difference, 30 second earliar A1 helps all.
The Motion Tracking rush is probably the single biggest A1 alternative. Its a bit riskier, but ends up being only ~20-30 seconds later on average than armor 1 goes active, and lets you basicly sweep the map in no time with a reasonable team. Then you have enough momentum to keep the aliens busy for a long, long time.
same here...
u upgrade armoru 1 very fast, and phase tech is imo more important if ur whole team is attacking a choke point etc
(and yes, mines are avoidable.)
What I usually do is drop an IP and an electrified tf in base, then have them hunt, usually with the builk of marines heading towards the hive furthest from the built hive. The idea is to avoid alien contact when possible. Any rts that aren't near the bulk group of marines get electrifed. (and every time I forget this step, I end up losing them or losing time.)
After they secure 4-5 rts, I drop an armory, arms lab, and obs. I research armor1, for the reasons you stated, and phase tech, and we get a pg up at the hive. The armory gets upgraded shortly.
Then it really depends on the situation; we'll probably go for the second hive, maybe with SGs, or maybe a siege is necesary.
When possible, we'll go for prototype equipment, in most cases Heavy Armor.
We'll get the third hive somehow, depending on the situation.
Oh, one thing I didn't mention, because it often isn't possible on a pub: I'll send (or, this makes me smile--they'll do it on their own) a marine towards the other empty hive, and the dude will lock it down by himself, or maybe just get up a pg. That's a very fast way to screw over the aliens. Ninjas like that make commanding easy.
If <i>you</i> were an experienced strategy player, you would know that discounting valid early game starts is the easiest to become stale and lose. Your statement is a logical fallacy known as <a href='http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm' target='_blank'>Prejudicial Language</a>. My statement is a known fact, yours is not.
Advancing the armory first is a very difficult early game, but very possible if you can secure two nodes quickly. Advanding the armory in the first 30 seconds of the game does two things: It takes away a midgame upgrade that's moderately expensive, and it speeds up the game's progress. Early game usually ends around the 5-8 minute mark, when the second hive is either going up or is completed. You force the game to be accelerated, because aliens must respond to the sudden appearance of hmgs at the 3 minute mark. This is also a must for a <b>real</b> jetpack or HA rush. Anything past about the 7 minute mark can't be considered a real rush, because it's not being rushed: it's delayed. Aliens are very ill equipped to deal with a jetpack rush on the hive at the 6 minute mark, and if the lateness of other upgrades can be overcome, it usually results in victory.
Phase tech along with armor1 is also another viable early game strategy. This isn't as defensive early game as the AA push, it's much more offensive due to the ability to control the map early. Motion Tracking is similar, allowing you to control the map and force confrontation (Not control it: Only aliens can control confrontation). I say this because marines cannot prevent a confrontation: a skulk can run away from a marine, but a marine can seldom run away from a skulk. However, a marine can force a confrontation by attacking a resnode, which the skulk must respond to or risque losing the node. You know the skulk is coming because you force confrontation by attacking the node, and you know from which direction and generally what speed the skulk is moving at (You can tell if a skulk is walking, running, or bhopping). This gives you an inherent advantage over the skulk. All of these are valid early games, as well as combinations of them.
TheAdj`, I'm sick of your comments. I will explain right now why advancing the armory is one of the worst tactics to do for an early strategy.
Starting out, IP+Armory>advanced.
The problem is with an advanced armory is that it offers no advantages until 3 minutes are up. In both pub AND clan matches, 3 minutes is a lot. For the same purpose, I could get A1 about 2 minutes earlier or motion tracking 1:30 earlier. That time is used to gain an advantage over the aliens. HMGs are good, yes, but shotguns are just as effective in most scenarios as well, not to mention they come right off the bat with the armory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Advancing the armory first is a very difficult early game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is also a must for a real jetpack or HA rush<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you smoking? A protolab alone costs 40 resources and an additional 35-40 res to make it worthwhile. If you opt for heavy armor, that's also 2 minutes you have to wait before THAT becomes effective.
This game (as all RTS games) is a game of economics. Whoever can fade or ugprade and drop shotties as fast as they can, wins. Dominating the early game will always let you dominate the mid and late game.
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If you were an experienced strategy player, you would know that discounting valid early game starts is the easiest to become stale and lose. Your statement is a logical fallacy known as Prejudicial Language. My statement is a known fact, yours is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, there is a difference. I am right, and you are wrong. I've backed up all my arguments, I'm not using rhetoric, but hey, I AM right. Now obviously, you could just use that argument again and say that I still haven't established that my claim is better than yours, and it would go into a vicious cycle until you've lost even more face.
You're assuming that the marines are uber-1337 and the aliens are mediocre.
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The famous "I am right you are wrong" defense has rarely failed.
And you call me "elitist"
Oh and by the way, you're wrong. Adj speaks nothing but the truth and the way you so arrogantly defended yourself is quite shocking, it's not a very convincing arguement really.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wow. In performing this plan you sacrifice certain things in order to attempt to end the game early. It's hard to be screwed for the rest of the game if the game ends in the early game. How can you be screwed if the aliens have a building hive, and that's it? There's multiple ways to execute this strategy. You can either have jetpackers pound a hive, while lights on foot build a phase gates and begin lmg pushing the same hive, or attack another hive at the same time. Aliens will be hard pressed to defend two hives at the same time 6-8 minutes into the game. There's no need to dominate early game if you blitz and end the game before it advances to the midgame. Many games have a strat like this, it sacrifices initial control for a crippling blow at an early point in the game.
If you notice the people that replied under you, they pretty much support what I say. Why, you ask? Because I speak from not only experience of an entire CAL season near the top of my division, but I speak on factual information. You attempt to use logic that's flawed to disprove something that's true. Simply stating "I am right and you are wrong" is obviously another fallacy. Please remove your head from your rear and use a logical, non-arrogant argument. You mentioned in your first post something like "Maybe I won't get flamed by elitists". Your previous post is why you get flamed.
For those wanting to learn how to command goto #nslearn on gamesurge sessions starting soon
A good com who placed his ip well can 90 percent of the time take the skulks easily.
ha firewater teaching people to com....... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
He is 100000% correct, good marines should never lose with this strategy on large games. The only way they could possibly lose this if they suck and can't aim.
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hm, that's the strat i try and use, come to think of it. but i don' t win 100% maybe 35%. maybe less.
it really depends on what your going for. the early, mid tech push is my preferred flavour, since it's clean and fast. no dealing with trains, and ppl welding each other and multiple basesunder attack and a zillion things to worry about. mid level shotties and sieges. good times.
There's your problem. I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, and you should always know that if your early game is in trouble, you're screwed throughout. You've basically defeated your own argument. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's called..."comeback"
but while playing with you i've learned that it isnt an option for you...if something goes wrong you just gg it and dont try to fix things
He is 100000% correct, good marines should never lose with this strategy on large games. The only way they could possibly lose this if they suck and can't aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, what marine team that has people who can aim and don't suck, lose?
If thats the case, its not the strategy, because any strategy could work.
The trick to great pub commanding is to make guys who aren't very good, feel like they are doing something right/good. Then they start to play better. Great commanders just need players that will cooperate, Pub All stars need good marines to win.
A good comm with bad strats can win, with marines who listen.
A bad comm with bad strats can win, with marines who listen and are good.
A good comm with good strats is a comm who makes the marines into the types of marines he needs. With lesser strats, he can get them to listen. With lesser response times, he can get them to work better as a team, and support each other.
The best comms do this all without thinking.
A good comm also knows when to talk, and when to let those in the field help themselves out. Having a man in the field lead never hurt anyone, so long as his actions are according to the plan of the Comm (Also known as 'The Boss').
That's my view. Also why I never post strats that I like.
You've never played the best fades then, the best fades wouldent be dumb enough to engage a group of 6 shotgunners. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in my experience.. the best fades go down to 6 lmg'ers too...
hell....i bet most fades couldbe taken down with 6 pistolers....
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~JASON