Ns Development, And How Not To Help.
Shockeh
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">You think you could do better?</div> An opinion on NS and it's forums, from a long term member of the community, a server op, a Constellation donator, and a regular poster to the NS forums.
This post sprouted from a reply I started on the Changelog thread, but it wandered enough that I felt it deserved a new one. So bear with me, it rambles a little. (But hey, all my threads do.)
I've stood by this mod a long time, and while I've not agreed with all the decisions made, game change wise (Blink being a long standing one) anything that shows a continued dedication & commitment by the guys is class.
Please bear in mind people, this is done for <b>the love of the game.</b> Flayra, Elven, voog, all the various minds behind development as well as those who keep the different communities in check (the server ops [waves to compatriots], the PT's, CM's, Forum & IRC mods) do this in their own time, because they believe in the game.
NS is still the most refreshingly different thing I've played in years, and I'll continue to love it. They could soullessly balance the game until the two sides became undistinguishable from each other (A crime too many RTS & FPS games have made in the past) but they don't, and new things do periodically appear, and the gamestyle changes.
So will everyone lay up on the guys, because they're doing their best, and they certainly don't need grief from the community they serve for their efforts. I know how it feels from community work, and it's awful. You go through phases of "Why did I ever bother trying to help?" because of it, and it has previously made me want to quit doing the things I do, so I'm sure for the dev's it's 100x worse.
If you don't like it, say so in a reasoned, calm manner, and it'll be examined and if lots of people agree with you, maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't, that's the way of the world. But if you can't do that, the door's over there, don't let it kick you in the <i>colloquial word for donkey</i> on the way out.
This is a game, and games are played for fun.
- Shockwave
EDIT : Goddamn swear filter.
This post sprouted from a reply I started on the Changelog thread, but it wandered enough that I felt it deserved a new one. So bear with me, it rambles a little. (But hey, all my threads do.)
I've stood by this mod a long time, and while I've not agreed with all the decisions made, game change wise (Blink being a long standing one) anything that shows a continued dedication & commitment by the guys is class.
Please bear in mind people, this is done for <b>the love of the game.</b> Flayra, Elven, voog, all the various minds behind development as well as those who keep the different communities in check (the server ops [waves to compatriots], the PT's, CM's, Forum & IRC mods) do this in their own time, because they believe in the game.
NS is still the most refreshingly different thing I've played in years, and I'll continue to love it. They could soullessly balance the game until the two sides became undistinguishable from each other (A crime too many RTS & FPS games have made in the past) but they don't, and new things do periodically appear, and the gamestyle changes.
So will everyone lay up on the guys, because they're doing their best, and they certainly don't need grief from the community they serve for their efforts. I know how it feels from community work, and it's awful. You go through phases of "Why did I ever bother trying to help?" because of it, and it has previously made me want to quit doing the things I do, so I'm sure for the dev's it's 100x worse.
If you don't like it, say so in a reasoned, calm manner, and it'll be examined and if lots of people agree with you, maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't, that's the way of the world. But if you can't do that, the door's over there, don't let it kick you in the <i>colloquial word for donkey</i> on the way out.
This is a game, and games are played for fun.
- Shockwave
EDIT : Goddamn swear filter.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT : Goddamn swear filter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking about reasonable, calm "manner." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But yeah... I think there's an empty room filled with non-existent people that are actually listening to what you have to say on an uncharted island in the Atlantic.
It's nice to hear it said every so often, but it's like asking a pig to eat with a fork and knife... it won't happen -_-.
I think I'll burst everyones bubble to say that if Beta5 is your last hope for NS, bail now. Its a shame really, and hopefully when flayra gets going we see NS down the road. But lets look at the facts. NS is a career launcher for him, a way to flex his muscles and he did a good job at it and the time just isn't available anymore. Its life, so even though it sucks, it happens. I hope I didn't anger anyone but this is how I see it.
btw, Tresth, is that some icegorge in your avaitor?
Oh man, this is so true...
So really, if the devs want it 'easy' on themselves, all they have to do is listen to others. I don't think anyone who plays the game actually wants to hurt it's development. But they don't want to see it go into the gutter either.
So really, if the devs want it 'easy' on themselves, all they have to do is listen to others. I don't think anyone who plays the game actually wants to hurt it's development. But they don't want to see it go into the gutter either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ta Forlorn, supportive as always. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I didn't mean a generic 'SUYF' incidentally, I'm implying that bawling & crying won't help, and just alienates the dev's from wanting to listen to whoever it is in the future. I actually agree with you (the horror!) that previously the development was based on the opinions of too small a cross-section, but with the current spate of 'Jump up & down and tantrum' method of trying to get changes made... well, if I were a dev I wouldn't listen anymore either.
- Shockwave
I have to go with the red guy though, especially if NemesisZero's promise of real changes soon after the release of beta5 does not come true. As far as I know, being outside the dev.team, they could have quit the job completely after december -that is how much they have bothered to give out news.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 5/01/04 ]:: Beta 4a released!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<Insert sarcastic smiley here>
Weekly bit of info is not too much to ask, is it? Only about 40.000 people waiting for a smallest sign that the project is still alive, but still the Big Guy upstairs does nothing. Either he does not care and the project is dead, or suddenly we have a message in the front-page with cat-sized letters. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's sure as... flowers... that at this rate people *will* presume it dead, if the developers glance at it once every six months. Just check how often the <a href='http://www.firearmsmod.com/' target='_blank'>Firearms</a> mod-makers have updated their site and compare it to NS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If NS kicks the bucket, needless to say; the servers will go down with it. I bet that at that point, however, no one will be complaining. Why? Because no one cares.
So really, if the devs want it 'easy' on themselves, all they have to do is listen to others. I don't think anyone who plays the game actually wants to hurt it's development. But they don't want to see it go into the gutter either. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ta Forlorn, supportive as always. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I didn't mean a generic 'SUYF' incidentally, I'm implying that bawling & crying won't help, and just alienates the dev's from wanting to listen to whoever it is in the future. I actually agree with you (the horror!) that previously the development was based on the opinions of too small a cross-section, but with the current spate of 'Jump up & down and tantrum' method of trying to get changes made... well, if I were a dev I wouldn't listen anymore either.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cry and scream sydrome only happens as a reaction to inactive devs. Haven't you ever been in another dying game community? It's exactly the same process.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's sure as... flowers... that at this rate people *will* presume it dead, if the developers glance at it once every six months. Just check how often the Firearms mod-makers have updated their site and compare it to NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FA is a great example, I know because I am an old FA vet. However, FA died much in the same fashion as NS is right now; from a bad job at developing it. Horrible balance especially. To this day it remains unbalanced, which is pretty sad considering both sides are the same.
Also, stuff that helped kill FA; an update every once every 6 months, one time an update was 1 year apart from the last one?
A game can only go at the max speed of the dev. Of course if a dev is slow then the game will slow down as well.
EDIT: Ness, who's starting the flamewar here?
the forum is called "Ideas and suggestions", not "demands and Wishes" if you post there just know all it is is a suggestion.. I don't care if they don't spend hours sorting threw the 100s of threads ( most of which are terrible ) to get ideas, I'm sure the dev teams have great vision of where this game is going, and if not then they can get ideas
and if all else fails, remember, you get what you pay for NS is free so if its not perefect oh well I think its a pretty great bargain to play an amazing game thats tonz of fun, even if its not perfect .... yet
so yeah I'm with this shockwave guy over here... deffinitly very wise beyond his years
I wasn't talking about myself either.
I guess we really know who you were thinking about now.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Avenger, I'm 24. I'm in the minority on these boards. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
You <i>really</i> think that there won't be any NS versions beyond 3.0? I think there will, Flayra won't let NS hang. See, when you look for investors, you have to look like you're capable of creating, publishing, and maintaining a game. If he was to just let NS hang out there and waste away into 3.0 oblivion, then he would have failed one step of the process: letting the game go stale and losing all of the fanbase. That would scare off investors, because his main asset is NS (they see NS, and if it's sucking, why would they want to invest in UWE?)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The cry and scream sydrome only happens as a reaction to inactive devs. Haven't you ever been in another dying game community? It's exactly the same process.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devs are NOT inactive. Try the bugtracker (log on with guest, guest for name and pass). They're fixing bugs every day! EVERY DAY you can log in and see updated bug definitions and updated bug fixes! Inactive my... won't go there.
And, you know... why bring 3 new people onboard the NS dev team if they're only going to work on 3.0, which may be out in a month? As somebody put it somewhere, voogru and elventheif aren't here to just fix bugs.
I wasn't talking about myself either.
I guess we really know who you were thinking about now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NOW I'm definitely thinking you.
The devs are NOT inactive. Try the bugtracker (log on with guest, guest for name and pass). They're fixing bugs every day! EVERY DAY you can log in and see updated bug definitions and updated bug fixes! Inactive my... won't go there.
And, you know... why bring 3 new people onboard the NS dev team if they're only going to work on 3.0, which may be out in a month? As somebody put it somewhere, voogru and elventheif aren't here to just fix bugs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter if 3 new people are brought in, but doesn't really 'do' much in the public's eye.
You'd be surprised at how pathetically little it takes from the dev's part to keep people shut up about the progress of a game.
A poll, once a week, an update, once every 2 weeks, simple crap like that goes a long way towards no one ever questioning what exactly you are doing.
But once you distance yourself from the public that spawned you, you will suddenly find yourself wondering what everyone's problem is, when all they want to know is what you are thinking.
As for the rest of it,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You'd be surprised at how pathetically little it takes from the dev's part to keep people shut up about the progress of a game.
A poll, once a week, an update, once every 2 weeks, simple crap like that goes a long way towards no one ever questioning what exactly you are doing.
But once you distance yourself from the public that spawned you, you will suddenly find yourself wondering what everyone's problem is, when all they want to know is what you are thinking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel the same way. It would be nice to know what he's doing, when he's doing it, and why. However, that's not the way everything works. I have never seen anybody pull that off properly (look at Valve: they communicate well, they tell people why things are happening, and everyone hates them anyway), so there's not much I have to say about it.
The cry and scream sydrome only happens as a reaction to inactive devs. Haven't you ever been in another dying game community? It's exactly the same process.
The devs are NOT inactive. Try the bugtracker (log on with guest, guest for name and pass). They're fixing bugs every day! EVERY DAY you can log in and see updated bug definitions and updated bug fixes! Inactive my... won't go there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, we get zero feedback from the devs. NS is in beta currently and we the players are all supposed to be giving feedback. So we do that on these forums. But what sign do we get that the devs even know we exist? Take the Unchaining Chambers threads; a massive poll and a 23+ page thread in the beta forums with not a single comment from the devs. The only time we seem to be able to get their attention is when we post a bug.
It's all well and good to fix bugs, but if you seriously expect to hang onto your fanbase you have to communicate with them. Otherwise we start wondering why we should bother posting any feedback at all. The NS community is one of the finest online groups I've ever encountered, and it would be a huge mistake for the devs to let it wither and die.
Please give us a chance here.
Please give us a chance here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why a post on the forums instead of the main page?
If this is supposedly the reason to Flayra's absence (which I do not doubt), then why not share it with others if you don't want any slack?
Please give us a chance here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only problem I have with that explanation is, Flayra knew he was moving, so why didnt he give the source to his second in command so that the rest of the dev team can work on it? Or does he not trust anyone in his team?
They have gotten started MUCH faster than I expected and they're doing a great job. Don't be so impatient as to hope to see 4 months worth of changes in beta 5; Nobody was working on NS during that long "dead" period. Now, people ARE working on it.
Give them time to get some things done, k thx bye.
Please give us a chance here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is a problem with NS development.
Here is a little analogy for you. The president of America has a military aide by him at all times carrying a briefcase with the nuclear launch codes. If (hopefully not) it is needed, the president can access them and authorize a nuclear attack. If the aide goes missing with the briefcase, then authorizing a nuclear strike becomes very problematic.
Now, in NS's case, you have only the president (Flayra) who carries with him the laptop containing the lifeforce of NS. If he goes missing for a few months, like he did, coding work comes to a standstill. However, work coming to a standstill is not the only thing that happens. What happens to a nation when the president suddenly dissapears from the public eye?
It is valid, to an extent, to defend NS development on grounds of Flayra being away. However, isn't it obvious that the organization is a bit flawed?
Now, Shockwave took a different approach - but a very common one. Flayra and co. are developing this game for free, and therefore whatever they do should be let to pass even if it hurts the game. This is an invalid argument because even though a person might be volunteering in doing something, there is no reason that he should not do it properly. "NS Development, And How Not To Help.: You think you could do better?" Wailing and complaining makes no difference. Nor does any type of feedback really.
If the NS dev team wants a break, a few ammendments need to be made in the public relations and taskforce organization departments. Do I think I could do better? Not in coding and the majority of actual programming detail, but perhaps I could score some points in the management department. Does the dev team care? No.