Game Balance :(
SoulSkorpion
Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
<div class="IPBDescription">(it's not ALL whining :P</div> (Note: I wrote this post a few days ago, before the new patch was released. I have since edited and added to it, and this is the end result. Despite the patch, my attitude towards the game balance is the same, and is as follows.)
*sigh*
I was sure I'd never do this, but I find I'm now siding with the whiners who say that Kharaa are too hard, that the game is balanced too heavily in favour of marines. I've played NS almost continuously since the release, btw, it's not like I've only played five minutes.
I'm still stunned by how professional NS is. The sound effects, the game dynamic, the effort that's gone into this is truly incredible. In particular, the fact that the Kharaa play completely differently to the marines (and very differently to most other games) is really great. I don't expect to play a Skulk like a marine and win. I've stated on numerous occasions that while humans can easily wipe out Kharaa turrets, they only do so because they have to, whereas Kharaa can dodge human turret fire. I've defended the game balance of NS against whiners online, and fought against impossible odds (an entire team of heavy armour and heavy machineguns) believing that, even in defeat, the game balance was fine and our team just wasn't trying hard enough.
I've seen the Kharaa win exactly three times out of the fifteen or so games I've played (these games averaging up to three hours).
Game 1: the humans were crippled by a poor commander early on in the game who made terrible decisions which put them at a disadvantage; the Kharaa had the upper hand for the duration but through no virtue of theirs.
Game 2: The command centre was destroyed very early in the game by a lone skulk who got past the defenses. Again, the fault of a particularly stupid marine team, not by virtue of the Kharaa.
Game 3: The human commander did not take control of the map and resources fast enough, and was defeated by hordes of Onoses. Yet again, this was a tactical blunder on the part of the enemy, not a strength of the Kharaa forces - had the commander set up more bases to dominate the map we would not have had the resources to win.
All the other games, we were overrun by marines in heavy armour and wielding heavy machineguns. Most of these games, we were cut off from establishing a second hive early in the piece by turret bases, and even when we had access to Fades were unable to halt the human encroachment on our territory. I've lost count of the number of times I've typed to my teammates "They're setting up a base just outside our hive, we have to take it now or we're dead!", we've desperately launched the assaults and been mowed down by machinegun fire. Cunning ambushes of heavily armoured marines by virtue of parasite have been thwarted with no apparent effort - skulks gunned down effortlessly.
Against heavy armour, there is NO chance of a Kharaa comeback with only one hive, and a slim chance with two. And with heavy armour, there is little chance of a second or third hive being set up.
My first criticism of why it's so difficult to kill humans as Kharaa is that the whole idea of the marines is that they must band together to survive. That was the sales pitch. When a single marine is able to go on a rampage because his armour makes him invulnerable, I start to question that.
Second. I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to melee fighting. For three years, I played Team Fortress Classic as a spy - dodging people's shotguns before they fire, able to kill a hwguy effortlessly without losing any health (for those who don't know, a hwguy carries a chaingun which mows people down in a matter of seconds, and carries the most armour). These days, I play FireArms (a realism-based HL mod) using only a combat knife against AK-47s, MP5s, Uzis, you name it. About 80% of my knife attacks are successful, and a good proportion of them I can pull off without losing any health. I'm not just talking about creeping up behind someone and stabbing them, either - I'm talking about dodging their gunfire, getting behind them and killing them. You know that first scene in The Matrix when Trinity runs along the wall and that policeman can't hit her? That sort of thing.
Yet in NS, I and my teammates routinely get absolutely reamed. Why? Two reasons. 1: Unlike other games if you make one single mistake in your attack you are dead. In Firearms, if you screw up and take a few bullet wounds you still have a chance of knifing someone. In NS, you can't TAKE a few bullet rounds. 2: Not only are you not allowed a single mistake in a melee, you have to keep it up for a LONG time against heavy armour. It takes at least fifteen bites to kill a marine with heavy armour. In Firearms (where backstab damage also doesn't exist, to give an even comparison) it takes, at most, five knife blows.
Oh sure, very fair. Not only do alien players have to already possess formidable melee skills, they are not permitted a single mistake in a lengthy fight which lasts far longer than it should. You have to perform flawlessly, with a Skulk's stupid jaws obscuring your vision, for fifteen successful attacks AND CAN'T TAKE A SINGLE HIT OR YOU DIE.
Never mind a Skulk, even a damn Fade has to hack away for a good five minutes to take a single marine.
[added by edit]
I've just now come out of a game of NS where I tried to attack a heavily armoured, hmg carrying marine called "NSPlayer", who himself said he was new. I was a fade with carapace, celerity and cloaking. I was waiting in ambush, he didn't see me. When he passed, I ran up behind him and attacked. I turned to dodge his gun, and avoided some of his gunfire but I couldn't move in the tight corridor. There wasn't any room. Not that stopped him, I was mowed down. I doubt I even got half way through his F****** armour. It's nice to see that the heavy machinegun has been toned down a bit, but the heavy armour is still too powerful.
[/edit]
I'd be prepared to accept even this if it weren't for the fact that marines require very little skill, and the learning curve is virtually nonexistent for those who are already good at other FPSs. Even a newbie marine with heavy armour and a commander with half a brain is dangerous. Further, EVERY member of a Kharaa team must not only be highly competant at melee combat against impossible odds, but must know exactly what they are doing. A Kharaa newbie is a dead newbie, and even worse a Kharaa team with a newbie in it is a dead team. One skilled Kharaa makes a difference of sweet bugger all for preventing the humans from building bases at all the resource nodes, and from grenade-raping Kharaa bases.
Ok, let's assume that I'm TOTALLY wrong and that I still haven't learned to play NS properly as Kharaa (despite my aforesaid melee experience).Say there's something fundamentally wrong with what I'm doing, despite my best efforts. Explain why I should have to jump through hoops, learning an incredibly difficult play style while the average marine newbie can join an NS server, go "gee this looks like fun" and procede to totally decimate all resistence he comes accross?! You know what it feels like? It's like we Kharaa are backdrop for the marine's game. We're shooting gallery targets. Big scary aliens? We're a f****** joke. It's as if the Kharaa's sole purpose is to be blown away by the humans. We're fodder for newbies with impenetrable armour and insane firepower.
Gee, great fun when one side has a learning curve that resembles Mount Everest while the other side is actually EASIER to play than a lot of other games.
I would complain about the gross unfairness of the difficulty removing critical human bases take, but I see that this has already been addressed by making turrets require the factory to be up. Thank you. However, I can see it's only a matter of time before they start building five turret factories in each base.
*sigh*
I don't want to not play NS. I really enjoy it, but the impossibility of it and sheer unfairness is impossible. There are a few things I can think of to restore the balance, however:
1: Halve the strength of Heavy Armour, or make it five times more expensive than it already is. It's too easy to produce, it's impossible to kill unless the marine's already been wounded by five other failed attacks, and it defeats the whole idea of marines by letting them attack aliens by themselves.
2: Remove the heavy machine gun. Just get rid of it. Don't try to balance it, it's a lost cause. It chews through Kharaa armour like it isn't there, it's flawlessly accurate, it has a massive clip, it does FAR too much damage per shot. Just get rid of the damn thing. It requires no skill WHATSOEVER to use; skill is a bonus. Restricting the marines to the more difficult weapons means that there will actually be some CHALLENGE to playing marine.
3: Make human buildings more expensive, or make them easier to destroy. It is difficult to describe what it feels like to finally destroy a human installation through repeated, desperate attacks to be gunned down by marine reinforcements when the commander's attention turns back to the base, and in five minutes' time your hard work is undone.
4: Give all alien melee attacks backstab damage. Part of the skill in TFC knife fighting is being able to hit the exact backstab spot and kill in one hit. While I'm not suggeting that Kharaa melee attacks should be able to one-hit heavy armour with a backstab strike, increasing the damage done from backstab attacks would even the play balance significantly.
Please, PLEASE fix this game. And playtesters, please don't give me soppy rants about how much sweat and blood and tears went into NS. I'm aware of that, it shows through in the game. I'm not dissing Flayra and co. The concept is fantastic, the polish that has gone into this game is incredible (sound effects, artwork, level design, how smooth and glitch free everything is (ok, excluding blink <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) ). I truly believe that NS has the potential to attain CS-like popularity. Nevertheless, the play balance is flawed. Flawed. Not "shot-to-hell, this game is so crap, waaah I'm going back to CS". Just flawed. Otherwise, Natural Selection is a f****** masterpiece.
SoulSkorpion
*sigh*
I was sure I'd never do this, but I find I'm now siding with the whiners who say that Kharaa are too hard, that the game is balanced too heavily in favour of marines. I've played NS almost continuously since the release, btw, it's not like I've only played five minutes.
I'm still stunned by how professional NS is. The sound effects, the game dynamic, the effort that's gone into this is truly incredible. In particular, the fact that the Kharaa play completely differently to the marines (and very differently to most other games) is really great. I don't expect to play a Skulk like a marine and win. I've stated on numerous occasions that while humans can easily wipe out Kharaa turrets, they only do so because they have to, whereas Kharaa can dodge human turret fire. I've defended the game balance of NS against whiners online, and fought against impossible odds (an entire team of heavy armour and heavy machineguns) believing that, even in defeat, the game balance was fine and our team just wasn't trying hard enough.
I've seen the Kharaa win exactly three times out of the fifteen or so games I've played (these games averaging up to three hours).
Game 1: the humans were crippled by a poor commander early on in the game who made terrible decisions which put them at a disadvantage; the Kharaa had the upper hand for the duration but through no virtue of theirs.
Game 2: The command centre was destroyed very early in the game by a lone skulk who got past the defenses. Again, the fault of a particularly stupid marine team, not by virtue of the Kharaa.
Game 3: The human commander did not take control of the map and resources fast enough, and was defeated by hordes of Onoses. Yet again, this was a tactical blunder on the part of the enemy, not a strength of the Kharaa forces - had the commander set up more bases to dominate the map we would not have had the resources to win.
All the other games, we were overrun by marines in heavy armour and wielding heavy machineguns. Most of these games, we were cut off from establishing a second hive early in the piece by turret bases, and even when we had access to Fades were unable to halt the human encroachment on our territory. I've lost count of the number of times I've typed to my teammates "They're setting up a base just outside our hive, we have to take it now or we're dead!", we've desperately launched the assaults and been mowed down by machinegun fire. Cunning ambushes of heavily armoured marines by virtue of parasite have been thwarted with no apparent effort - skulks gunned down effortlessly.
Against heavy armour, there is NO chance of a Kharaa comeback with only one hive, and a slim chance with two. And with heavy armour, there is little chance of a second or third hive being set up.
My first criticism of why it's so difficult to kill humans as Kharaa is that the whole idea of the marines is that they must band together to survive. That was the sales pitch. When a single marine is able to go on a rampage because his armour makes him invulnerable, I start to question that.
Second. I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to melee fighting. For three years, I played Team Fortress Classic as a spy - dodging people's shotguns before they fire, able to kill a hwguy effortlessly without losing any health (for those who don't know, a hwguy carries a chaingun which mows people down in a matter of seconds, and carries the most armour). These days, I play FireArms (a realism-based HL mod) using only a combat knife against AK-47s, MP5s, Uzis, you name it. About 80% of my knife attacks are successful, and a good proportion of them I can pull off without losing any health. I'm not just talking about creeping up behind someone and stabbing them, either - I'm talking about dodging their gunfire, getting behind them and killing them. You know that first scene in The Matrix when Trinity runs along the wall and that policeman can't hit her? That sort of thing.
Yet in NS, I and my teammates routinely get absolutely reamed. Why? Two reasons. 1: Unlike other games if you make one single mistake in your attack you are dead. In Firearms, if you screw up and take a few bullet wounds you still have a chance of knifing someone. In NS, you can't TAKE a few bullet rounds. 2: Not only are you not allowed a single mistake in a melee, you have to keep it up for a LONG time against heavy armour. It takes at least fifteen bites to kill a marine with heavy armour. In Firearms (where backstab damage also doesn't exist, to give an even comparison) it takes, at most, five knife blows.
Oh sure, very fair. Not only do alien players have to already possess formidable melee skills, they are not permitted a single mistake in a lengthy fight which lasts far longer than it should. You have to perform flawlessly, with a Skulk's stupid jaws obscuring your vision, for fifteen successful attacks AND CAN'T TAKE A SINGLE HIT OR YOU DIE.
Never mind a Skulk, even a damn Fade has to hack away for a good five minutes to take a single marine.
[added by edit]
I've just now come out of a game of NS where I tried to attack a heavily armoured, hmg carrying marine called "NSPlayer", who himself said he was new. I was a fade with carapace, celerity and cloaking. I was waiting in ambush, he didn't see me. When he passed, I ran up behind him and attacked. I turned to dodge his gun, and avoided some of his gunfire but I couldn't move in the tight corridor. There wasn't any room. Not that stopped him, I was mowed down. I doubt I even got half way through his F****** armour. It's nice to see that the heavy machinegun has been toned down a bit, but the heavy armour is still too powerful.
[/edit]
I'd be prepared to accept even this if it weren't for the fact that marines require very little skill, and the learning curve is virtually nonexistent for those who are already good at other FPSs. Even a newbie marine with heavy armour and a commander with half a brain is dangerous. Further, EVERY member of a Kharaa team must not only be highly competant at melee combat against impossible odds, but must know exactly what they are doing. A Kharaa newbie is a dead newbie, and even worse a Kharaa team with a newbie in it is a dead team. One skilled Kharaa makes a difference of sweet bugger all for preventing the humans from building bases at all the resource nodes, and from grenade-raping Kharaa bases.
Ok, let's assume that I'm TOTALLY wrong and that I still haven't learned to play NS properly as Kharaa (despite my aforesaid melee experience).Say there's something fundamentally wrong with what I'm doing, despite my best efforts. Explain why I should have to jump through hoops, learning an incredibly difficult play style while the average marine newbie can join an NS server, go "gee this looks like fun" and procede to totally decimate all resistence he comes accross?! You know what it feels like? It's like we Kharaa are backdrop for the marine's game. We're shooting gallery targets. Big scary aliens? We're a f****** joke. It's as if the Kharaa's sole purpose is to be blown away by the humans. We're fodder for newbies with impenetrable armour and insane firepower.
Gee, great fun when one side has a learning curve that resembles Mount Everest while the other side is actually EASIER to play than a lot of other games.
I would complain about the gross unfairness of the difficulty removing critical human bases take, but I see that this has already been addressed by making turrets require the factory to be up. Thank you. However, I can see it's only a matter of time before they start building five turret factories in each base.
*sigh*
I don't want to not play NS. I really enjoy it, but the impossibility of it and sheer unfairness is impossible. There are a few things I can think of to restore the balance, however:
1: Halve the strength of Heavy Armour, or make it five times more expensive than it already is. It's too easy to produce, it's impossible to kill unless the marine's already been wounded by five other failed attacks, and it defeats the whole idea of marines by letting them attack aliens by themselves.
2: Remove the heavy machine gun. Just get rid of it. Don't try to balance it, it's a lost cause. It chews through Kharaa armour like it isn't there, it's flawlessly accurate, it has a massive clip, it does FAR too much damage per shot. Just get rid of the damn thing. It requires no skill WHATSOEVER to use; skill is a bonus. Restricting the marines to the more difficult weapons means that there will actually be some CHALLENGE to playing marine.
3: Make human buildings more expensive, or make them easier to destroy. It is difficult to describe what it feels like to finally destroy a human installation through repeated, desperate attacks to be gunned down by marine reinforcements when the commander's attention turns back to the base, and in five minutes' time your hard work is undone.
4: Give all alien melee attacks backstab damage. Part of the skill in TFC knife fighting is being able to hit the exact backstab spot and kill in one hit. While I'm not suggeting that Kharaa melee attacks should be able to one-hit heavy armour with a backstab strike, increasing the damage done from backstab attacks would even the play balance significantly.
Please, PLEASE fix this game. And playtesters, please don't give me soppy rants about how much sweat and blood and tears went into NS. I'm aware of that, it shows through in the game. I'm not dissing Flayra and co. The concept is fantastic, the polish that has gone into this game is incredible (sound effects, artwork, level design, how smooth and glitch free everything is (ok, excluding blink <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) ). I truly believe that NS has the potential to attain CS-like popularity. Nevertheless, the play balance is flawed. Flawed. Not "shot-to-hell, this game is so crap, waaah I'm going back to CS". Just flawed. Otherwise, Natural Selection is a f****** masterpiece.
SoulSkorpion
Comments
Don't think a Skulk can go up against heavy armor. Don't even think about it. Stop. I mean it, get the idea out of your head. Ok, good, now that that foolish notion is gone, try a Fade or Onos if you're up against heavy armor. Yes, you can take down a HA as skulk if you're lucky, but any marine with half a brain will turn around and smoke you even if he has a LMG. I'm sure now tons of people will regale me with their tales of how they take on squads of HA/HMG troopers as un-upgraded skulk, but the success rate is <i>miniscule</i>.
I think the problem here is evideent in most of what you've said. "I went up against a..." "then I tried to.."
Notice the singular there? WHy was no-one else with you? Granted, being Alien is MORE Dm than Marine, but that doesnt mean everybody does their own thing. I agree that it's dumb that Skulks basically never kill HA guys, but I mean.. its a level 1 vs. a... not.. level 1.
(As for TFC spy knifing an HWguy, try it on a soldier, then i'll be impressed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
damn
Other then that, Aliens keep winning
Marines got the UBER shaft, we are talking iron pipe, 3 feet wide, spiked tip like the top of an alien turret
Dead serious
And there isn't any Rambo's, not even with HMG/HA. You wanna see Rambo? Give a great Jet Packer an HMG and watch him plant his Jarhead self on the top of your hive and SOLO it while you are like "O M G GET TO THE COMPUTER CORE NOW!"
But as for HA/HMG solo'ing, god no, no hope, the HA doesn't move fast enough to make it effective
Anythign else? Yea, Aliens are not self sufficient, they don't do it man, sure, they should be able to do it, but they don't, NOT as well, ro anywhere near as well, with back up. Nothing can beat 2 Onos, with a Lerk to back them up, and a Fade on top of that, And a Gorge or two with health spray maybe
Kharra have strength, it lies in the upgrades, and the upgrades lie in the Gorge's, even a newbie team of aliens can win _if those Gorge's_ know what they are doing, and have a couple attacks to back them up when needed, but not all the time
Your asking a base skulk to take down a heavy marine..
Do you think a base marine can take down an onos?
Two base marines? 3? 4? 5? maybe. Be serious here, what you were experiencing was a resource bug. If it happened to you post 1.01 then you were facing an awsome commander who managed his resources AND smart marines who didnt lose their armor/weapons as soon as they got them so that eventually they *all* had them.
Think a heavy marine (with hmg) could take 3 skulks at a time? 4? 5? no way. But then, onos are harder to get and cost slightly more.
Do you think a skulk should be able to solo a Heavy marine? (assuming he/she isnt an idiot - happens..) I think if you play'd both sides of the picture you would agree it shoudn't be able to.
Moral of the story: When you see a Heavy marine with a Heavy machine gun, let out the age old "**obscenity**" and call for help!
I meant with heavy armor and a HMG. guess that wasn't clear. How your success rate on <i>those</i>?
Anyway, yea
Only need 4 on an zero upgrade HA. Of course, 5 HMG bullets kill a skulk. And those fire way faster.
I'd be a little ticked off if I gave 50 RPs worth of equipment to a marine and he lost it against a 0 RP critter. Just like I'd be ticked off if a single LMG marine shot up my 44 RPs of fade. They're both silly situations. I have yet to see a fade get killed by one LMG marine though. An unhurt fade anyway.
[Edit: Whoa. Edited for laungage. And I thought I was being tame.]
I am really surprised that there are still ppl thinking that the marines are
overpowered after the 1.01 patch.
<b>Rushing</b>
I mean, <i>rushing</i> IS an issue. I've had games where we (aliens) were
overrun by 8 marines building a brigdehead base just at the edge of our
hive pushing further until our hive was gone. But it works the other way
round also! I've seen one game where all 8 players stayed skulk and
rushed the nmy base. The game lasted like... 2:43 mins
- Then the Marines where done.
<b>Heavy Armor</b>
When it comes to the heavy armor complaint, I really can't quite understand
what the problem is with it. Sure thing - it is VERY tough. BUT - that's what it
was supposed to be in the 1st place in my opinion.
I never expected to be able to easily 1vs1 it against a HeavyArmor Marine with
grenade launcher, and I would never want that to pe possible. Those guys can
be done, but you'll have to be a really smart and versatile alien to achieve this.
You're not Gordon with a crowbar, you're soft meat with sharp theeth trying to
grind through an inch of steel while someone is emptying a clip on you.
It's a duel that can only be resolved through 'natural selection' <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>v1.01 changed the odds</b>
1.01 not only stripped a whole lot of power from the marines, it also boosted
the aliens quite a bit. This - plus the fact that the marine commander now
really has to watch where he puts the money - tips the favor slightly to
the alien's side.
<b>Playing as a Marine hasn't become easier</b>
Admittedly, I am an aliens-only-player. But (thanks to the balancing) I had to
play marines from time to time (I really suck at it) and have to say:
Being a commander is not an easy challenge at all - especially when you've
got several places where trouble is arising.
And there is another MAJOR drawback for the marines in v1.01: Aliens just
have to destroy the turret factory and all sentries go offline!! The only efficient
means to gain ground for marines (as far as I whitnessed) is the siege cannon
and things like heavy armor, grenade launchers and siege cannons.
If that would be stripped from the marines, I wouldn't want to play the game
anymore cause it would be as boring as it was in v1.0 when the aliens where
not strong enough to hold enough players in the team.
<b>v1.0 imbalances created tough alien players...</b>
Although I have to admit, that v1.0 was good for the aliens and bad for the
marines in one special way:
People who sticked with aliens during 1.0 learned to play against all odds.
They had to utilize every trick every weapon, even the smallest advantage
from the most uninteresting seeming upgrades. Usually alongside being
outnumbered by team-imbalance.
<i>Many of the tough alien players where forged by v1.0.</i>
<b>...and overconfident marine players</b>
But what's with the marines? They were used to have advantages in numbers,
resources and ground gaining. It was a (fairly) easy job to win as a marine if
your commander was not totally whacko.
With v1.01 all of this has changed, and marine players have not yet adapted
to the new tougher environment they have to deal with. Also the commander's
chair is not such a cosy place to sit in anymore, it has become a tough job that
puts a lot of pressure on that player.
<i>I am pretty sure that this will change in about a week or two, when the marines
have learned how to master the new situation they're put in.</i>
<b>Remaining 'Imbalances'</b>
The only other imbalance that is left now is those ppl who chicken and leave the
game before it's over. That's the main balance problem. But hey, that's a problem
on every public server for any mod.
<b>Enough with talking... LET'S ROCK!</b>
Now let's go on those servers and learn this mod, this ain't HLDM, this ain't CS
or DoD. Don't compare this Mod to others. It is a totally new thing.
Let's find out how it really works. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Best. First post. Ever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- M4H
There is a world of difference.
Thing is, the resource model is based on each Kharaa getting a constant amount of resources, no matter team size. So the total income for the Kharaa is
resources_chambers * num_players_on_your_team * ns_playerresourcescalar (which was about 1/4 pre-patch).
Now, to keep things even, the marines gets the same amount of resources. However, the marines use resources fairly efficently. In a 12v12 game, they will research and build turrets at three times the speed compared to a 4v4 ... in reality, its about 4-5 times because they can expand faster and turtle faster as well. In a 4v4 game, HMG's becomes available at about the 15-20 minute range. In a 12v12 game, you are talking about 5 minutes.
At the same time, the Khara puts down their first resource tower at 5 minutes, no matter their teamsize (remember, its based around the Kharaa getting the same amount of resources each. So larger teams may have MORE Gorges, but none of them can build any FASTER).
Also note that in small games, one Gorge may stay back and build. In large games, about three Gorges staying back is about right, meaning the Gorges harassing the marines are outnumbered as well.
What the patch did was to nerf the marines, meaning that instead of the game being balanced at the 4v4 size, it is now balanced around the 8v8 size. 12v12 pre-patch was insanely unbalanced, after the patch its just greatly unbalanced in favor of the marines.
So, if you feel frustrated as an alien, just rule a 4v4 server. If you want a lesson in humiliation and frustration, play on a 12v12 server.
i tend to agree, maybe HA should be toned down just a <i>little</i> bit. 85% insted of 90% absorbtion or something.
However, fades can take down HA on probably a 50/50 basis. A fade with surprize on his side probably gets a 70% chance of success even if the enemy has HMG. Adding carpace to the mix increases that chance.
Try acid rocket until you can get in close, it does quite a bit of dammage (increased speed and dammage in the patch) and then when you get close finish them with the slash. It's perfectly doable, and if you havn't killed them you've crippled them very badly and unless they got a buddy with a welder they are skulk food. However, for the marines to stand ANY chance against fades/onos they NEED HA and HMG. The LMG takes something like 2.5 clips to kill a carapaced fade, HMG maybe needs 2/3 of the HMG clip to kill it. Fades are very powerful and by removing HMG your making fades a super-class with almost nothing to stop them.
1 thing i'd like is for shotgun to cost a little less. The advantage in cost of shotgun over HMG is negligable compared to the advantage of the HMG over the shotgun. Maybe insted of 20 make shotgun 17 or something.
95% of the players haven't even understood how the resource distribution works yet, and you are already exposing the flaws of the resource scalar.
one month from now you might find more qualified support for a rehaul, right now your theories are being ignored, as you might have noticed
look, that patch doesnt solve everything.
it fixes resources, and lag, thats it. 3 points of damage difference wont do jack **obscenity**.
the hmg should be ungodly accurate (think tfc cone of death for hw, or mg during a jump in cs)
the lmg should be around 10 dmg per shot at most, and the grenade launcher should be non-clip, and ungodly expensive, meaning you WANT to protect him.
default dmg is good, but it should take quite some time for it to be able to fire again.
as for base skulk against ha/hmg....
skulk cant take out a base marine....
ever heard of a face? its left open, bite the face off, but wait, i cant because of the dev team assumed that the armour should be able to protect even the uncovered spots.
base marine against a onos? pfft, ive got around ten onos heads on my wall. even the lmg works, all you have to do is just hide behind a turret, and while the onos is trying to get to you, pound his head.
those default lmg bullets really tear through that super armour.
face it peaple, the game is geared towards marines.
this is like a target practice range.
almost all the aliens have there eyes inside there mouth, so you cant see while attacking, even the default melee attack can run out of ammo (LOL!)
just jumping as a lerk will take up energy (again, LOL!)
it takes forever to heal hives as a gorge, but marines can heal a command center in NO TIME!
i mean from the time it takes a skulk to get through one end of the vent in main aft junction to the base (around a 10 feet) they have it from 1 health dot left to full.
and best of all, those welders are CHEAP!, even on a 1.01 server there were piles of them all over the base.
and they stayed there for ages.
and as for the fade being a super class if hmg is removed....
GOOD!
your a group of marines, horribly outnumbered, surrounded by a nearly limitless number of aliens, with very few resources, and aliens that have jaws strong enough to bite your head right off.
those claws are bigger than your head, and that bile bomb is pure digestive fluid thats been strengthened at least 50 times.
but it took me 3 bile bombs to take a turret down to half health...
and your not soft meat.
your hardened alien hide, with teeth and jaws stronger than an anaconda, your attacking the head from behind and above.
i dont care if its a foot of titanium, the face is uncovered, and i expect it to be vulnreable.
skulks should be dangerous even late in the game.
remember, these are deadly aliens against weak humans armed with guns, in hostile territory.
i hope your tickled too, becuase i got fade claws all over the place, they make great steak knives.
i use lerk wings for umbrellas.
these arent hostile aliens, there scared pussycats. the only weapon not dangerous is the PISTOL, even the knive is deadly.
I agree with the original poster, HA takes more out of this game than it contributes. I think marines should constantly be in fear of surprise skulk and fade attacks, even late in the game. If you go out alone and leave your back unprotected, you should be dead. Simple as that.
But how is that possible? the gun only does 18 damage per shot?
Well, Im relating what I can tell. It could be lag, it could be that the sound doesn't play every time, it could be anything. But I hear and see only 1 or a few shots before I get killed or redeemed, even as an onos sometimes.
It seems the only creature able to stand it's man against a heavy armour guy is the Gorge, since he can just web him and then proceed to kill, web again, etc. Never tried it though, and I doubt it would work.
The lerk's spore cloud I didn't include, because that takes 3 hives, and heavy armour is against me in only a minute or two. But somehow the damage it does seems fiction if I read the manual. I spray the cloud, the guy walks through it, taking a second or three, and he ain't dead. This was a normal stock recruit, and therefor only had 100/50 or less.
"This is so unbalanced in Marine's favour! They won like 12 out of 15 games!"
And the other half:
"Aliens rule! We like beat the marines in 4 out of 5 games!!!"
And I've seen a lot of both.
Although I do agree that Heavy Armour is somewhat a problem, Patch 1.01 is a big enough balancer to make me happy. Not that I wasn't happy before... =P
Darc Myst
That's attributed to a steep learning curve for the aliens. Give it a month and I bet things will be quite different.
playtesters were claiming v1.0 was balanced with the very same argument right after release. then came a big nerfing for the marines and a beef for aliens.
so basically you are saying 1.0 was balanced because you tested it so long and 1.01 is balanced too. how can both be true at the same time?
I think this may be on of the biggest contributing factors to this "percieved imbalance".
I was forged by the fire from which you spoke. I was drawn toward the Marines when I first started but I just couldn't stand the unbalanced teams (Winning 10v5 is such a hollow victory) so I just started playing Alien more. I learned to totally dig the Aliens and by now I pretty much know the program, I'm still getting tactically better at the different beasties but I'm pretty comfortable with their capabilities and know when to use what.
And yes, I believe because of v1.0 Aliens are more used to working as a team. Once the Marines sort themselves out I think you'll find games to be tight, exciting and FAR from imbalanced. I've had a few of those games on v1.01, didn't win all of them but damn they were intense to the bitter end. :-D
Kharaa can't take down a heavy armor HMG marine solo, and marines can't take down a fade solo. (unless they have heavy armor and a HMG but that stuff is EXPENSIVE now).
Your best bet is to keep practicing. I'm not in favor of different damage for different spots on a marine/alien. The game is meant to be simple to play, complicated to win. Right now it does that.
i went toe to toe with a HA, as a fade with full adren and carapace, and took him down.
literally, he just faced each other, him unloading the clip, and me swiping away. he was toast (then i had to hightail it back to my Semi - Circle of Protection <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (D towers).
I think its balanced game now. How? Not all maps are balanced, but:
- First of all, usually marines are so dumb that they solo and that way are killed easily. And even then, early alien rushes help a lot.
- Aliens HAVE to play very differently than in normal fps games. Every fighter has to attack/defend every res point at the same time, so that new hives can be built. So when you hear that "building is under attack", run like hell to defend.
- At the beginning of a round, Gorges are so expensive that they have to stay away from fights, only healing the wounded.
- The basic <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> doesnt cost anything!
<b><i>Sacrifice</i> it to defend others. </b>