I was deliberately avoiding bringing up the justification for vegetarianism, and frankly I think that's missing the point. It doesn't <i>matter</i> what PETA's ideals are; the point is that the methods they employ to further those ideals are reprehensible, which brings their cause down.
Dirty tactics cheapen the argument. After all, if your case is solid then there's no reason why you shouldn't let it stand up by itself; if you use dirty tactics, it makes it look like your poistion is otherwise indefensible.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the risk of being flamed mercilessly, I will now pull out one of the best arguments ever:
"If God didn't intend for us to eat animals for food, then why are they made out of meat?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice try.
"If God didn't intend for us to each other humans, then why are they made out of meat?"
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?"
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say we all spam email from yahoo accounts with quotes from this forum and the other sites in this thread. Usually they respond we a rebuttle statement that isn't true. It's so fun to **** with them and prove them wrong. LET'S DO IT!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Real mature. What did I just say about dishonourable tactics?
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are tons of animals that would eat human flesh if we gave them a chance. And there are human cannibals too. So, what's your point?
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are tons of animals that would eat human flesh if we gave them a chance. And there are human cannibals too. So, what's your point? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So much for being subtle...
Saying "if god didn't want us to eat animals, why are they made of meat?", and using it to justify eating animals, is flawed logic. It's saying that the reason why there's nothing wrong with eating animals is <i>because</i> they're made of meat. That implies that anything made of meat is ok for eating. I was pointing out cases where this logic does not hold.
Humans are made of meat, but eating humans is not considered acceptable. Therefore, "if something is made of meat, it's ok to eat" is incorrect as a categorical statement. Therefore, there must be other factors affecting whether or not it's ok to eat something other than simply whether they're made of meat or not!
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+Aug 19 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ Aug 19 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To quote Ron White: "I didn't climb to the top of the food-chain just to eat carrots!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> amen to that
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Aug 20 2004, 02:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Aug 20 2004, 02:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Humans are made of meat, but eating humans is not considered acceptable. Therefore, "if something is made of meat, it's ok to eat" is incorrect as a categorical statement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds correct enough to me.
UZiEight inches of C4 between the legs.Join Date: 2003-02-20Member: 13767Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+Aug 20 2004, 03:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ Aug 20 2004, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Aug 20 2004, 02:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Aug 20 2004, 02:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Humans are made of meat, but eating humans is not considered acceptable. Therefore, "if something is made of meat, it's ok to eat" is incorrect as a categorical statement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds correct enough to me.
*bites own hand* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Humans=meat yes
alot of things are made of meat but its more like what kind of meat you like im sure there is some sicko out in the world that likes eating his own body parts but i sir am not one of them i take my beef straight from a cow my pork from a pig and my chicken welll.... from a chicken!
And if you do, it'll be the old beef-to-the-face technique, followed by the 'ole forced mastication of Quorn followed by the classical face-to-grill 1, 2 technique.
Seriously, I like my Beef, I like Meat, in fact I had a nice Ribeye of steak. Something that plants and the other stuff can't really make up for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Aug 20 2004, 03:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Aug 20 2004, 03:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the human body dosn't naturaly produce the enzymes needed to break down cow milk or sometihng screwy like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically, the vast majority of the human race is lactose intolerant after childhood. Only Europeans and their descendants have the best chance of continuing to break down lactose if I remember correctly. I think the only problems with being lactose intolerant is that you get things like excessive wind, diarrhoea and cramps
Only thing that pisses me off is that they try to shove it in my FACE all the time. If you dont eat meat fine, it's very stupid but hey your choice. But don't ever pull that stuff up infront of me.
I have a friend , he is veg. I respect that cuase he never says "why you eat meat" "I would not eat that if I were you" That's very cool. PETAs are nothing but spoiled brats. This is where I miss the stone age where these people died out, but hey there's always one bad apple in each basket, nature ain't perfect to make the perfect normal gens sometimes.
BTW: I eat meat cuase it testes good. And becuase animals are stupid, useless sacks of meat that are ready to be consumed.
I disagree with eating dogs, cats and other pets. But if I really needed to, I would.
Unfortunaly, none of us are batteling the real issue here. It is not about eating meat - it is about:
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
Eating meat is just a by-product of that.
Now, I am against PETA because of this. PETA believes that animals should have the same "rights" as humans - that their level in this world is equal to that of humans, and as such, they should not be consumed for food.
I don't believe that is correct. In fact, I would go so far as to say that even one unborn child has more rights than the last pair of any species that is about to become extinct. If one is to live (in my opinion) let it be the human, not the animal.
So you can see why we are all "hitlers" in their opinion. We are slaying equals for food, not animals meant for food.
My disagreement is more base than that. I believe that humans have something that sets us appart from animals - soul. Now, that doesn't mean we are to disregard animals all together - we are to care for them. But we are also to use them (eat them).
What a **** website they have (PETA). Thank god they don't work in the UK.
As regards why milk can be bad for you, its because milk contains lactose, a form of sugar. We all know that raw sugar is bad for the human body. Drinking milk is harmless, but if you drink more than a litre a day, you're going to put weight on.
Humans don't really have the enzymes to break down plants either. In fact most animals don't. Its a symbiotic relationship with bacteria that allows you to even attempt to subsist on a purely veggie diet.
Second, vegetables are sprayed with tons of happy chemicals, probably moreso than animals. Third, they're all grown on the same planet so even organic food has had some exposure to pollution.
Third, humans treat their prey a lot better than most animals do.
So really I don't see how anyone can claim, with a straight face, that a vegan lifestyle is promoted by man's evolutionary history, health reasons, or morality.
It's as dumb as advocating a pure insect, pure meat, or pure photosynthesis diet. Humans are omnivorous, why cut your nose off to spite your face?
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited August 2004
umm, actualy a vegetarian or vegan diet done correctly is considerably better for you.
1) Organic foods have no pesticides (part of the reason why they are expensive) 2) Poloution is not an issue (I am not sure why yah brought it up)
a good vegan diet cuts out alot of fat, gets you just as much protien and what not, and ALOT more vitamins and minerals. And fiber, no one eats enugh fiber <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yah, Dairy is bad for you, loads of fat, lots of empthy Calories. (but it tastes so good)
And remember, we are humans, we can do what ever we want B/C of technology. Therefore we can eat a compleatly vegetarian diet if we want, and still trive on it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personaly?
I Lke my bacon chese burgers, with a side of cheese fries and gravey <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
oh, and humans can't survive on a photosynthesis diet for the simple fact that we can not cary out photosynthesis... If you ment a vegan diet, then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian.....
Hmm...I just got the crazy idea that we should fight for the <i>plants</i>! Sure, they might be slightly inanimate, but they still have lives!
SAVE THE WHEAT!
EDIT : This is sort of like fighting for animal rights and stuff....but heck, this is for plant rights XD
Still, what the PETA doing is wrong with the false advertising. Sure there might be a few dead white blood cells in milk, but we have more floating around in our bloodstream and inbetween our cellular structuring don't we?
<!--QuoteBegin-RaVe+Aug 20 2004, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Aug 20 2004, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm...I just got the crazy idea that we should fight for the <i>plants</i>! Sure, they might be slightly inanimate, but they still have lives!
SAVE THE WHEAT! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LET TOFU VOTE
<ul><li>I am a vegetarian.</li><li>PETA is nuts.</li><li>I hate the way they treat animals on factory farms. This is one of the reasons I'm a vegetarian, but I sure wouldn't shove it in someone else's face, especially not a class of impressionable children who aren't given a chance to form opinions of their own.</li><li>I also dislike how inefficient meat farming is compared to veg farming. it takes a lot of grain to raise one cow, etc etc.</li><li>however, I do know there's ALREADY a massive food surplus in the world, and the only reason it doesn't get distributed to the countries who need it is because of capitalism. this is the same reason factory farms exist -- in order to compete. sadly, I can't really envision a government in which factory farms don't exist, or food is distributed to each according to his need.</li></ul> I really do think the US is severely messed up, culturally. here's a story from my sociology class. We were watching Michael (gasp!) Moore's <i>Roger and Me</i>, about the closing of auto plants in his hometown. He interviews a woman who raises and sometimes slaughters rabbits to make ends meet. She was cuddling with a bunny in one scene, and in the next, she kills it for meat. practically EVERYONE in the classroom was moaning about how cruel it was, and I wanted to slap every one of them. I'm far from an animal activist, but I cannot stand hypocracy. All these meat-eaters, whining about the slaughter of a comparatively humanely raised rabbit, who were probably going to run off and eat a bucket of factory-produced chicken wings after class. I'm a vegetarian, and I RESPECTED her slaughter of the bunny, because she cared for it, treated it decently, and was thankful for what she was getting from it. it was more than just a cash crop.
The next scene was real documentary footage of a black man, driven over the edge by the loss of his job with no chance to find a new one, getting <i>shot</i> at close range by a police officer. The entire class cracked up laughing. The perfect portrait of society - ain't it grand?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> actualy a vegetarian or vegan diet done correctly is considerably better for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An omnivorous diet, done correctly, is considerably better for you.
1) Organic foods don't have pesticides sprayed on them, but thats it. When farmers switch to organic growing they use the same old fields or are next to other conventional crops, or are part of the WHOLE FRICKING FOOD CHAIN THAT INVOLVES PESTICIDES. Insects, birds, animals, they can all transfer chemicals so some farmer's guarantee that he didn't spray anything on his crop means absolutely sweet FA as to the quality of his food.
2) Pollution IS an issue, it pervades the entire biosphere. You would need to grow your food in little tents, with their own purified and humidified deionised air, with deionised and purified water, and FRICKING MOON SOIL JUST TO BE SURE THERE'S NOTHING ODD IN IT. And even then moonsoil has been exposed to fossil fuels from space missions.
HUMANS NEED FAT. Cutting it out is idiotic. If you have *no* fat, you die. Lipid bilayers make up every cell in your body, fats are used to transport virtually everything in your system, and its your body's natural food store.
Meat products contain just as many vitamins and minerals as plant ones, and in fact several that plants DO NOT HAVE. That is why only the monumentally on-a-par-with-a-neutron-star dense person would only eat from one group. You need MEAT AND VEGETABLES.
Dairy is not bad for you. If you drink it like water then yes, you'll suffer. But if you drink alcohol like water, you'll suffer. And if you drink too much water, you'll suffer. Moderation. If you can't cope with moderation then you can't really claim any one diet is better than the other. Its a pretty poor bit of logic to say
"I can't stop myself drinking milk, ergo I am never going to drink milk again, and will now actively encourage the world to stop eating cheese just because I can't have cheese and ham toasties anymore."
"I can't stop shoving burgers down my fat bloated throat. Ergo I will switch to a vegan diet in a suicidal attempt to stop eating at McDonalds. Also, I will try to stop other people eating meat because I lack the willpower to control my diet"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And remember, we are humans, we can do what ever we want B/C of technology. Therefore we can eat a compleatly vegetarian diet if we want, and still trive on it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you eat rocks? Can you photosynthesise? Can you survive on air? No, humans can't do what they want. Sorry, scratch that, humans can TRY to do what they want, and in fact I actively encourage them to. Because if you're fool enough to jump off a cliff because "technology can make me hover without flapping" then all the better. One less fool in the gene pool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> oh, and humans can't survive on a photosynthesis diet for the simple fact that we can not cary out photosynthesis... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh but technology means humans can do anything. Go now, let us all join our ancestors and float in the sea using heat and light to change chemicals into other chemicals. At the very least we'll provide some sport for the Orcas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, like all those cave dwelling invertebrates that eat each other? That'd be those magic centipedes that grow on centipede trees would it? And the bats that fall from the cave ceiling and are fed on by blind lizards, they're really flying carrots.
It all makes sense.
Look, seriously man, you can't subsist on a vegan diet any more than you can subsist on a pure meat diet. You're always taking supplements to cover up for the lack of certain nutrients.
I honestly wish that people who try to push an unhealthy unbalanced diet either go the whole way and try for photosynthesis (they don't have the enzymes to break down plants but that doesn't stop them trying, so why not go the whole banana) or better yet start eating their own crap as the ultimate nod to rumination.
Edit - I want to make it totally clear, i can respect people eating their own choice of foods in their own home, because its their basic right. However, once you start pushing it down someone else's throat then you become fair game. I went veggie for 2 years as part of a little experiment to see if I was gluten intolerant like some people in my family, but I didn't go around trying to make the world follow me. I advocate an omnivorous diet purely because thats how humans are designed to subsist. Anything else is silly. Peace and love.
Eating a vegetarion diet to be free of pollution is like walking to work to be free of car exhaust. I mean, there are cars driving right by you spitting pollution in your face. Lots of the Earth is really messed up, and you're going to have to go to extraordinary lengths to eat a diet completely free of contaminants.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
yah, there is no point in bringing poloution up for the simple fact that it is every where, thus your diet dosn't effect it.
Fat? You can get plenty of it with out eating meat (olives, grains, nuts etc), infact it is simple to over do fat on a vegan diet (As I said, if done correctly) You can get protien from beans and nuts (and other things) Calcium is in many green leafy veggies (if remember correctly, or mabey it is brocoli, or sometihng).
look, what you are claiming is just wrong. You can get all of nutrients you need from nonanimal products.
Now, for a few problems with your style of discussion 1) Don't quote me out of context. 2) dont use Reductio Ad Absurdum, you understood what I ment by us being able to do what we want b/c of tech, attacking that one sentance just makes you look silly.
No we can't do anytihng. But we can often change things about our nature as we see fit. This is why we can use a vegan diet, why we can survive winter with out natural fat/fur/what not, etc etc.
YES, the human body was designed to be an omnivore, then again the human body (not mind, just body) has no protection against extreme cold, extreme heat, our immune system is laughable compared to many other species, we can't defend ourselfs with out outside support (weapons, armour etc), we can't fly, we can't travel long distances, etc.
The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly: Calcium Fat Protien and certain vitamins and minerals. All of these things occure in other places.
As for things that subsist with out photosynthesis? Fungi, simple aint it, and nutritios.
I again will point out: I am not saying that Vegan/Vegetarian is the way to go (I am not one myself). I am saying that all of you people who think that these options are not viable, are simply wrong (I would point you at some of my vegetarian friends, who are compleatly healthy, then there are some of them who eat way to much pizza <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Aug 20 2004, 11:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Aug 20 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we can't defend ourselfs with out outside support (weapons, armour etc), we can't fly, we can't travel long distances, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to add that Hermit Crabs do not grow their own shells, they need to find one.
So yeah, we're not the only ones incompetent in terms of predetermined armoring and self-defense.
Without Animal Proteins Mankind wouldn´t have become the sentinent Species it is today. It is proven, that the development of the brain couldn´t be supplied by fruits and corns alone. There are certain Proteins and amino-acids wich can only be aquired by eating meat/eggs/milk products. while these are not ultimatly necessary for dull grown adults it is really important for babies and kids to develop the right(normal) way.
So everyone who believes this **** will get dumb children, wich will eventually die out ^^, Problem solved.
P.S. Human Milk may contain Pus, too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Aug 20 2004, 11:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Aug 20 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <snip snip> so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most people don't hate vegetarians, they just can't stand self-righteous ones.
PETA are the best trolls IRL. Their highly creative and cleaver with their attacks. And while I don't agree with their agendas, their hilariously fun entertainment... and I love them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Blobby+Aug 20 2004, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blobby @ Aug 20 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> PETA are the best trolls IRL. Their highly creative and cleaver with their attacks. And while I don't agree with their agendas, their hilariously fun entertainment... and I love them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I prefer greenpeace
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yah, there is no point in bringing poloution up for the simple fact that it is every where, thus your diet dosn't effect it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FTW man, if people are claiming organic food is healthier then they seriously need to consider that pollution is everywhere. People can't spout "veggies are healthier" when they're grown in the same soil, with the same water and air. What a wacky non sequitur. "Health reasons" is always a fun one veggies like to pull out, sadly they're totally mistaken. Probably the result of a brainload of organophosphates.
Fat?
You do know how many different fats there are, right? And the difference between fats and oils? And that animal fat differs to vegetable fat? And that some fats can be produced by the body, and some cant? Ditto proteins and amino acids in particular. A lot of people didn't sit through university level biochemistry so they missed out on these little gems of information.
Also consider that a growing amount of the population are intolerant to peanuts and other seed oils. If you're going to say milk is evil because people are intolerant to it, then you have to say nuts and seeds are also evil.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can get all of nutrients you need from nonanimal products. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See this is a half truth. You can get all of your nutrients.. FROM VITAMIN PILLS. If you're sucking on vitamin pills then you're fundamentally agreeing that your veggie diet DOES NOT COVER YOUR NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS. So you're either saying its "healthier", in which case see above, or you're saying its "moral", in which case find the nearest Orca whale for seal volleyball. You can hug the seal during your dark quiet time in the Orca's stomach as you're massaged and digested in the dark.
I shall quote what I like, specifically since its in context to the topic. If you don't like acknowledging that "since the world is polluted, going veggie for health reasons makes someone a fool" then thats really not my problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> us being able to do what we want b/c of tech <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So hovering is entirely different to guzzling power pills and claiming that a veggie diet is perfectly sound... as long as you eat man made pills. hovering is perfectly sound... as long as you use a helicopter. Both are ridiculous. Veggie diets shouldn't incorporate vitamin pills, otherwise you're not on a veggie diet, you're just wimping out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But we can often change things about our nature as we see fit. This is why we can use a vegan diet, why we can survive winter with out natural fat/fur/what not, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is surviving cold and heat is beneficial to an extent. Trying to survive a purely vegan diet is akin to sticking your head into an unlit gas oven and convincing yourself you can breathe normally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> YES, the human body was designed to be an omnivore, then again the human body (not mind, just body) has no protection against extreme cold, extreme heat, our immune system is laughable compared to many other species, we can't defend ourselfs with out outside support (weapons, armour etc), we can't fly, we can't travel long distances, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last I checked flight wasn't essential to life. Second, another great veggie "fact" is that humans work better on a veggie diet. A complete lie. Sure, you work well on a veggie diet IF you suck down supplements and don't OD on organophosphates, but if you ate a balanced omnivore diet, WITH NO SUPPLEMENTS *REQUIRED*, you'd be in a better off condition. The ability to do something doesn't mean one SHOULD.
People laugh at individuals wearing tinfoil pyramid hats, wrapping themselves up in halftruths and misinterpretations.... how are the vocal vegetarians any different? I feel so healthy.. as long as I eat my pills! I am morally right for not eating meat... except that animals will still be killed and in more humane ways than in the wild! Humans are natural vegetarians... they just die a lot quicker if they try it!
Its odd, people condemn con artists for selling "You can live on energy in the air!" mumbo jumbo, yet they can stomach vocal herbivores advocating an equally unrealistic lifestyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly: Calcium Fat Protien and certain vitamins and minerals. All of these things occure in other places. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly.... every nutrient. Whoa!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for things that subsist with out photosynthesis? Fungi, simple aint it, and nutritios. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And insects, and mammals, and fish... etc etc etc. Oh, but thats right,you said WITHOUT LIGHT. And look, cave dwellers subsist on DEAD ANIMALS. Why, you might ask. Oh, thats because dead animals are full of vitamins and minerals!
Second, fungi are not vegetarian by any stretch of the imagination. I believe you said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fungi are neither vegan nor vegetarian. Keep trying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm calm as a tomb. I already said I'm all for people living their life in their own homes, but that I don't like lunatics pushing unrealistic diets. Herbivore humans only exist by guzzling down vitamin pills, from animal sources, that can give them the essential minerals that plants cannot.
To reiterate:
For health reasons - Ridiculous unless you genuinely have an allergy. For moral reasons - Go play seal volleyballs. For evolutionary reasons - Have a GOOD look at any relevant biochemistry book.
All the more reason for vocal herbivores to sit down and shut up while the omnivores go about life.
Comments
I was deliberately avoiding bringing up the justification for vegetarianism, and frankly I think that's missing the point. It doesn't <i>matter</i> what PETA's ideals are; the point is that the methods they employ to further those ideals are reprehensible, which brings their cause down.
Dirty tactics cheapen the argument. After all, if your case is solid then there's no reason why you shouldn't let it stand up by itself; if you use dirty tactics, it makes it look like your poistion is otherwise indefensible.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the risk of being flamed mercilessly, I will now pull out one of the best arguments ever:
"If God didn't intend for us to eat animals for food, then why are they made out of meat?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice try.
"If God didn't intend for us to each other humans, then why are they made out of meat?"
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?"
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say we all spam email from yahoo accounts with quotes from this forum and the other sites in this thread. Usually they respond we a rebuttle statement that isn't true. It's so fun to **** with them and prove them wrong. LET'S DO IT!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Real mature. What did I just say about dishonourable tactics?
[snip]
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?"
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There are tons of animals that would eat human flesh if we gave them a chance. And there are human cannibals too. So, what's your point?
[snip]
"If God didn't intend for us to slice parts of our bodies off and eat them, why are they made out of meat?"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are tons of animals that would eat human flesh if we gave them a chance. And there are human cannibals too. So, what's your point? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So much for being subtle...
Saying "if god didn't want us to eat animals, why are they made of meat?", and using it to justify eating animals, is flawed logic. It's saying that the reason why there's nothing wrong with eating animals is <i>because</i> they're made of meat. That implies that anything made of meat is ok for eating. I was pointing out cases where this logic does not hold.
Humans are made of meat, but eating humans is not considered acceptable. Therefore, "if something is made of meat, it's ok to eat" is incorrect as a categorical statement. Therefore, there must be other factors affecting whether or not it's ok to eat something other than simply whether they're made of meat or not!
amen to that
Sounds correct enough to me.
*bites own hand*
Sounds correct enough to me.
*bites own hand* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Humans=meat yes
But we sure aint tasty meat.
COME AND GET ME PETA!!!!!
HAHHAHAHAHHAH!
And if you do, it'll be the old beef-to-the-face technique, followed by the 'ole forced mastication of Quorn followed by the classical face-to-grill 1, 2 technique.
Seriously, I like my Beef, I like Meat, in fact I had a nice Ribeye of steak. Something that plants and the other stuff can't really make up for.
Basically, the vast majority of the human race is lactose intolerant after childhood. Only Europeans and their descendants have the best chance of continuing to break down lactose if I remember correctly. I think the only problems with being lactose intolerant is that you get things like excessive wind, diarrhoea and cramps
I have a friend , he is veg. I respect that cuase he never says "why you eat meat" "I would not eat that if I were you" That's very cool. PETAs are nothing but spoiled brats. This is where I miss the stone age where these people died out, but hey there's always one bad apple in each basket, nature ain't perfect to make the perfect normal gens sometimes.
BTW: I eat meat cuase it testes good. And becuase animals are stupid, useless sacks of meat that are ready to be consumed.
I disagree with eating dogs, cats and other pets. But if I really needed to, I would.
People for the
Ethical
Treatment of
Animals
Eating meat is just a by-product of that.
Now, I am against PETA because of this. PETA believes that animals should have the same "rights" as humans - that their level in this world is equal to that of humans, and as such, they should not be consumed for food.
I don't believe that is correct. In fact, I would go so far as to say that even one unborn child has more rights than the last pair of any species that is about to become extinct. If one is to live (in my opinion) let it be the human, not the animal.
So you can see why we are all "hitlers" in their opinion. We are slaying equals for food, not animals meant for food.
My disagreement is more base than that. I believe that humans have something that sets us appart from animals - soul. Now, that doesn't mean we are to disregard animals all together - we are to care for them. But we are also to use them (eat them).
What a **** website they have (PETA). Thank god they don't work in the UK.
As regards why milk can be bad for you, its because milk contains lactose, a form of sugar. We all know that raw sugar is bad for the human body. Drinking milk is harmless, but if you drink more than a litre a day, you're going to put weight on.
Second, vegetables are sprayed with tons of happy chemicals, probably moreso than animals. Third, they're all grown on the same planet so even organic food has had some exposure to pollution.
Third, humans treat their prey a lot better than most animals do.
So really I don't see how anyone can claim, with a straight face, that a vegan lifestyle is promoted by man's evolutionary history, health reasons, or morality.
It's as dumb as advocating a pure insect, pure meat, or pure photosynthesis diet. Humans are omnivorous, why cut your nose off to spite your face?
1) Organic foods have no pesticides (part of the reason why they are expensive)
2) Poloution is not an issue (I am not sure why yah brought it up)
a good vegan diet cuts out alot of fat, gets you just as much protien and what not, and ALOT more vitamins and minerals. And fiber, no one eats enugh fiber <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yah, Dairy is bad for you, loads of fat, lots of empthy Calories. (but it tastes so good)
And remember, we are humans, we can do what ever we want B/C of technology. Therefore we can eat a compleatly vegetarian diet if we want, and still trive on it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personaly?
I Lke my bacon chese burgers, with a side of cheese fries and gravey <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
oh, and humans can't survive on a photosynthesis diet for the simple fact that we can not cary out photosynthesis...
If you ment a vegan diet, then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian.....
Sure, they might be slightly inanimate, but they still have lives!
SAVE THE WHEAT!
EDIT : This is sort of like fighting for animal rights and stuff....but heck, this is for plant rights XD
Still, what the PETA doing is wrong with the false advertising. Sure there might be a few dead white blood cells in milk, but we have more floating around in our bloodstream and inbetween our cellular structuring don't we?
Sure, they might be slightly inanimate, but they still have lives!
SAVE THE WHEAT! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LET TOFU VOTE
I really do think the US is severely messed up, culturally. here's a story from my sociology class. We were watching Michael (gasp!) Moore's <i>Roger and Me</i>, about the closing of auto plants in his hometown. He interviews a woman who raises and sometimes slaughters rabbits to make ends meet. She was cuddling with a bunny in one scene, and in the next, she kills it for meat. practically EVERYONE in the classroom was moaning about how cruel it was, and I wanted to slap every one of them. I'm far from an animal activist, but I cannot stand hypocracy. All these meat-eaters, whining about the slaughter of a comparatively humanely raised rabbit, who were probably going to run off and eat a bucket of factory-produced chicken wings after class. I'm a vegetarian, and I RESPECTED her slaughter of the bunny, because she cared for it, treated it decently, and was thankful for what she was getting from it. it was more than just a cash crop.
The next scene was real documentary footage of a black man, driven over the edge by the loss of his job with no chance to find a new one, getting <i>shot</i> at close range by a police officer. The entire class cracked up laughing. The perfect portrait of society - ain't it grand?
actualy a vegetarian or vegan diet done correctly is considerably better for you.
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An omnivorous diet, done correctly, is considerably better for you.
1) Organic foods don't have pesticides sprayed on them, but thats it. When farmers switch to organic growing they use the same old fields or are next to other conventional crops, or are part of the WHOLE FRICKING FOOD CHAIN THAT INVOLVES PESTICIDES. Insects, birds, animals, they can all transfer chemicals so some farmer's guarantee that he didn't spray anything on his crop means absolutely sweet FA as to the quality of his food.
2) Pollution IS an issue, it pervades the entire biosphere. You would need to grow your food in little tents, with their own purified and humidified deionised air, with deionised and purified water, and FRICKING MOON SOIL JUST TO BE SURE THERE'S NOTHING ODD IN IT. And even then moonsoil has been exposed to fossil fuels from space missions.
HUMANS NEED FAT. Cutting it out is idiotic. If you have *no* fat, you die. Lipid bilayers make up every cell in your body, fats are used to transport virtually everything in your system, and its your body's natural food store.
Meat products contain just as many vitamins and minerals as plant ones, and in fact several that plants DO NOT HAVE. That is why only the monumentally on-a-par-with-a-neutron-star dense person would only eat from one group. You need MEAT AND VEGETABLES.
Dairy is not bad for you. If you drink it like water then yes, you'll suffer. But if you drink alcohol like water, you'll suffer. And if you drink too much water, you'll suffer. Moderation. If you can't cope with moderation then you can't really claim any one diet is better than the other. Its a pretty poor bit of logic to say
"I can't stop myself drinking milk, ergo I am never going to drink milk again, and will now actively encourage the world to stop eating cheese just because I can't have cheese and ham toasties anymore."
"I can't stop shoving burgers down my fat bloated throat. Ergo I will switch to a vegan diet in a suicidal attempt to stop eating at McDonalds. Also, I will try to stop other people eating meat because I lack the willpower to control my diet"
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And remember, we are humans, we can do what ever we want B/C of technology. Therefore we can eat a compleatly vegetarian diet if we want, and still trive on it
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Can you eat rocks? Can you photosynthesise? Can you survive on air? No, humans can't do what they want. Sorry, scratch that, humans can TRY to do what they want, and in fact I actively encourage them to. Because if you're fool enough to jump off a cliff because "technology can make me hover without flapping" then all the better. One less fool in the gene pool.
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oh, and humans can't survive on a photosynthesis diet for the simple fact that we can not cary out photosynthesis...
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Oh but technology means humans can do anything. Go now, let us all join our ancestors and float in the sea using heat and light to change chemicals into other chemicals. At the very least we'll provide some sport for the Orcas.
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then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, like all those cave dwelling invertebrates that eat each other? That'd be those magic centipedes that grow on centipede trees would it? And the bats that fall from the cave ceiling and are fed on by blind lizards, they're really flying carrots.
It all makes sense.
Look, seriously man, you can't subsist on a vegan diet any more than you can subsist on a pure meat diet. You're always taking supplements to cover up for the lack of certain nutrients.
I honestly wish that people who try to push an unhealthy unbalanced diet either go the whole way and try for photosynthesis (they don't have the enzymes to break down plants but that doesn't stop them trying, so why not go the whole banana) or better yet start eating their own crap as the ultimate nod to rumination.
Edit - I want to make it totally clear, i can respect people eating their own choice of foods in their own home, because its their basic right. However, once you start pushing it down someone else's throat then you become fair game. I went veggie for 2 years as part of a little experiment to see if I was gluten intolerant like some people in my family, but I didn't go around trying to make the world follow me. I advocate an omnivorous diet purely because thats how humans are designed to subsist. Anything else is silly. Peace and love.
Fat?
You can get plenty of it with out eating meat (olives, grains, nuts etc), infact it is simple to over do fat on a vegan diet (As I said, if done correctly)
You can get protien from beans and nuts (and other things)
Calcium is in many green leafy veggies (if remember correctly, or mabey it is brocoli, or sometihng).
look, what you are claiming is just wrong. You can get all of nutrients you need from nonanimal products.
Now, for a few problems with your style of discussion
1) Don't quote me out of context.
2) dont use Reductio Ad Absurdum, you understood what I ment by us being able to do what we want b/c of tech, attacking that one sentance just makes you look silly.
No we can't do anytihng. But we can often change things about our nature as we see fit. This is why we can use a vegan diet, why we can survive winter with out natural fat/fur/what not, etc etc.
YES, the human body was designed to be an omnivore, then again the human body (not mind, just body) has no protection against extreme cold, extreme heat, our immune system is laughable compared to many other species, we can't defend ourselfs with out outside support (weapons, armour etc), we can't fly, we can't travel long distances, etc.
The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly:
Calcium
Fat
Protien
and certain vitamins and minerals.
All of these things occure in other places.
As for things that subsist with out photosynthesis?
Fungi, simple aint it, and nutritios.
I again will point out:
I am not saying that Vegan/Vegetarian is the way to go (I am not one myself).
I am saying that all of you people who think that these options are not viable, are simply wrong (I would point you at some of my vegetarian friends, who are compleatly healthy, then there are some of them who eat way to much pizza <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life.
I'd just like to add that Hermit Crabs do not grow their own shells, they need to find one.
So yeah, we're not the only ones incompetent in terms of predetermined armoring and self-defense.
Without Animal Proteins Mankind wouldn´t have become the sentinent Species it is today.
It is proven, that the development of the brain couldn´t be supplied by fruits and corns alone.
There are certain Proteins and amino-acids wich can only be aquired by eating meat/eggs/milk products.
while these are not ultimatly necessary for dull grown adults it is really important for babies and kids to develop the right(normal) way.
So everyone who believes this **** will get dumb children, wich will eventually die out ^^, Problem solved.
P.S. Human Milk may contain Pus, too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people don't hate vegetarians, they just can't stand self-righteous ones.
I prefer greenpeace
yah, there is no point in bringing poloution up for the simple fact that it is every where, thus your diet dosn't effect it.
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FTW man, if people are claiming organic food is healthier then they seriously need to consider that pollution is everywhere. People can't spout "veggies are healthier" when they're grown in the same soil, with the same water and air. What a wacky non sequitur. "Health reasons" is always a fun one veggies like to pull out, sadly they're totally mistaken. Probably the result of a brainload of organophosphates.
Fat?
You do know how many different fats there are, right? And the difference between fats and oils? And that animal fat differs to vegetable fat? And that some fats can be produced by the body, and some cant? Ditto proteins and amino acids in particular. A lot of people didn't sit through university level biochemistry so they missed out on these little gems of information.
Also consider that a growing amount of the population are intolerant to peanuts and other seed oils. If you're going to say milk is evil because people are intolerant to it, then you have to say nuts and seeds are also evil.
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You can get all of nutrients you need from nonanimal products.
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See this is a half truth. You can get all of your nutrients.. FROM VITAMIN PILLS. If you're sucking on vitamin pills then you're fundamentally agreeing that your veggie diet DOES NOT COVER YOUR NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS. So you're either saying its "healthier", in which case see above, or you're saying its "moral", in which case find the nearest Orca whale for seal volleyball. You can hug the seal during your dark quiet time in the Orca's stomach as you're massaged and digested in the dark.
I shall quote what I like, specifically since its in context to the topic. If you don't like acknowledging that "since the world is polluted, going veggie for health reasons makes someone a fool" then thats really not my problem.
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us being able to do what we want b/c of tech
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So hovering is entirely different to guzzling power pills and claiming that a veggie diet is perfectly sound... as long as you eat man made pills. hovering is perfectly sound... as long as you use a helicopter. Both are ridiculous. Veggie diets shouldn't incorporate vitamin pills, otherwise you're not on a veggie diet, you're just wimping out.
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But we can often change things about our nature as we see fit. This is why we can use a vegan diet, why we can survive winter with out natural fat/fur/what not, etc etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is surviving cold and heat is beneficial to an extent. Trying to survive a purely vegan diet is akin to sticking your head into an unlit gas oven and convincing yourself you can breathe normally.
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YES, the human body was designed to be an omnivore, then again the human body (not mind, just body) has no protection against extreme cold, extreme heat, our immune system is laughable compared to many other species, we can't defend ourselfs with out outside support (weapons, armour etc), we can't fly, we can't travel long distances, etc.
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Last I checked flight wasn't essential to life. Second, another great veggie "fact" is that humans work better on a veggie diet. A complete lie. Sure, you work well on a veggie diet IF you suck down supplements and don't OD on organophosphates, but if you ate a balanced omnivore diet, WITH NO SUPPLEMENTS *REQUIRED*, you'd be in a better off condition. The ability to do something doesn't mean one SHOULD.
People laugh at individuals wearing tinfoil pyramid hats, wrapping themselves up in halftruths and misinterpretations.... how are the vocal vegetarians any different? I feel so healthy.. as long as I eat my pills! I am morally right for not eating meat... except that animals will still be killed and in more humane ways than in the wild! Humans are natural vegetarians... they just die a lot quicker if they try it!
Its odd, people condemn con artists for selling "You can live on energy in the air!" mumbo jumbo, yet they can stomach vocal herbivores advocating an equally unrealistic lifestyle.
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The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly:
Calcium
Fat
Protien
and certain vitamins and minerals.
All of these things occure in other places.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The nutrients you get from nonvegan foods are mainly.... every nutrient. Whoa!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
As for things that subsist with out photosynthesis?
Fungi, simple aint it, and nutritios.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And insects, and mammals, and fish... etc etc etc.
Oh, but thats right,you said WITHOUT LIGHT. And look, cave dwellers subsist on DEAD ANIMALS. Why, you might ask. Oh, thats because dead animals are full of vitamins and minerals!
Second, fungi are not vegetarian by any stretch of the imagination. I believe you said
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then don't forget that alot of things don't use light for a source of energy, and are still vegetarian.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fungi are neither vegan nor vegetarian. Keep trying.
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so calm down, and understand that Vegan/vegetarian is a very viable choice in life.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm calm as a tomb. I already said I'm all for people living their life in their own homes, but that I don't like lunatics pushing unrealistic diets. Herbivore humans only exist by guzzling down vitamin pills, from animal sources, that can give them the essential minerals that plants cannot.
To reiterate:
For health reasons - Ridiculous unless you genuinely have an allergy.
For moral reasons - Go play seal volleyballs.
For evolutionary reasons - Have a GOOD look at any relevant biochemistry book.
All the more reason for vocal herbivores to sit down and shut up while the omnivores go about life.