<!--QuoteBegin-ModChaosControl+Sep 3 2004, 10:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Sep 3 2004, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The onos hitboxes were the size of a marine in 2.0<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i still have 2.0 and 3.0 beta4a, and using Half-Life model viewer, the hitboxes since then havent changed at all.
[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> HLMV hitboxes aren't the ones that are used in the game... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CaptainPanaka+Sep 3 2004, 03:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaptainPanaka @ Sep 3 2004, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ModChaosControl+Sep 3 2004, 10:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Sep 3 2004, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The onos hitboxes were the size of a marine in 2.0<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i still have 2.0 and 3.0 beta4a, and using Half-Life model viewer, the hitboxes since then havent changed at all.
[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> HLMV hitboxes aren't the ones that are used in the game... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SLizer+Sep 3 2004, 10:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SLizer @ Sep 3 2004, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> W0w this is hot thread!!
gj let your pressures out! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
THe b4 will come soon and save us!!111eleven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> uh... b4 is already out m8 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> we're waiting for b5 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What the hell do I have to be constructive about? You posted yet another god damn "sob weep ns isn't fun any more" thread, not like we haven't had six hundred in the past. There's nothing to construct. You need to move on and go pound your pud somewhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The exit is located in the upper right hand corner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!! You know about that, and yet managed not to use it?
You are more of a failure than I knew. Why you're telling <i>me</i> about it, no one knows. I'm not the one posting the same old hackneyed foolishness in gen disc (I post exciting, innovative foolishness).
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
What the hell are you still caring about this thread if it's another useless whine bout b4a thread ? Plz just ignore and get the hell out urself, moreover ur posts keep the thread on top of the list. If you dont like it, let it die by not posting.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 3 2004, 03:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 3 2004, 03:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The myth of the "super onos" is ****. Why? Because the onos hitbox use to be the size of a marine, if you knew how to aim, it died twice as fast as the one now, but sadly most noobies didn't, thus, this is why it is a MYTH. The onos now is no weaker than the one from 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is bad reasoning. Onos WAS STRONGER, simply beause of smaller hitbox. It doesn't matter that theoretically it was weaker, reality is what counts! Remember 1.04 onos? It was able to stand multiple HA without problem.. Even for people who knew where to shoot, it was were hard to kill it, hitbox was small and you simply didn't see it most of the time. Also, guns like SG or HMG have big spread, so on the range most bullets were missing..
Regarding epic games - perhaps it's just a coincidence, but I had 3 epic games just yesterday :-) With really funny elements or a game where aliens won with 0 hives day before it. NS is still very fun if you play it on server with experienced players and teams are balanced.
I will try to briefly describe 50min game I had yesterday.. It was mineshaft, hive was tram, I was alien. We made some early attack on base, killing IP, but marines relocated to u-turn, blocking us from drill. Marines controlled old base, sewer and surrounding res towers. We had MC as a first chamber, so we decided to sneaky put sewer up (they had just RT there, no PG yet), I put it up and they found it when it was about 2/3 done and quickly built PG there for SG rush. But of course MC from tram was working and we won very intense fight there, hive barely survived. Now we got upper hand, with 2 hives.. Marines still had drill/u-turn and thanx to beacon old base too. We tried several attacks with fades/onos on the old base, but one beacon that included HA too killed 2 onos and fade :-) So both old base and u-turn were still in the hands of marines, and they already had all upgrades (3/3 + ha). They tried one or two PG+SG rushes, but these were quickly eliminated. Later, while we were trying to eliminate their presence in old base again, one sneaky marine got into tram and they established big siege base there. This time we were unlucky and lost the fight and tram, going down to 1 hive.. Now it was marine turn again, they started killing our res, slowly expanding over almost all res towers. We tried to put drill up, with idea to heal it from sieges and do not prevent marines to go inside it from u-turn. It almost worked, hive was at about 95% when it died, because we were unable to hold HA long enough.. People in team started to be desperate, but we still had res, so we decided to make onos rush on their main base - u-turn. 5 people went onos and the rush started, it was very good, we lost just 1 onos in the attack and marines lost u-turn. We tried to continue with onos attack, cleaning out double was easy, but onos that attacked marine start died because of beacon and last 3 onis which decided to attack tram (their new base) died in the instant. Marines were prepared and set a nice ambush to us.. So now we had 1 RT, 1 hive and no onoses or fades, while marines were rebuilding base too. We quickly rebuilt res and hive, and got 2 hives up and about half of the map. Marines had tram, double, marine start and gen and were pushing through heavilly lamed cave. It was very hard to attack double or tram directly. But we decided to try MC rush again, new base was directly under tram hive, I sneaked in as a gorge with onos distracting them from the side and quickly built hive. The hell started again, we lost many higher-aliens but skulks finished it, we ultimately won the game after about 50 mins of exciting game..
i also feel this way... The fun has been sucked outta ns really for me, just the same game over and over... Yes if you play with nice people then it gets fun. but after the same thing over and over again. The onos is now sorta crap... the l0rk is still fun to play but i guess with my love of flying thats obvious. all the aliens are hit and run which i guess is what the devs wanted but i also feel that the onos has lost its touch, if you will. its no longer feared because if it is a little bit away from home, two hmgs can take it down in a matter of seconds. yes HA's fear it a little and something like 3 oni can easily win the game but it aint powerful enough. its not heart pounding, as in like ur saying "FEAR ME" and they marines run off instead of "FEAR ME" "erm no? *BANG*"
I've also noticed a decline in the number of long, fun games I've played (and I play several hours just about every night - I know, I know, I need to get a life. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
I don't think it's so much to do with the game itself as with the players. There are a lot of players who detract from the enjoyment of the game. 1) Newbies, who through no fault of their don't really know what to do in certain situations and don't know the maps very well. That's not a problem, because if they stick around they'll learn. 2) People who've played for a very long time and think that everyone should do as they say, start eject-votes whenever they don't instantly get a medpack, and blame everyone else in their team when they lose. This sort of nonsense is unlikely to encourage Newbies to stick around and enjoy the game.
However, having said all that, I had a couple of really great games last night, on ns_veil and ns_lost. The games lasted about an hour each and were a constant series of mini-battles, with the marines taking one hive and the aliens retaking another. The teams were fairly well-balanced and control of the different areas of the map was constantly changing hands.
When a phase gate/turret factory was sneaked into place outside a hive the entire alien team would work together to take it down, while at the same time the marines were setting up.
It was a good, fun game and nobody was taking things too seriously and getting upset, and when we finally lost everyone said what a good game it had been.
Epic NS battles do still happen, and when they do it reminds you of what a great game it is.
The only thing missing are scorpions that hover without flapping, but maybe Beta 5 will correct that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think people are missing the point of why NS is declining. Its not balance issues. Ive played many unbalance NS versions and still had fun. Its as simple as this.
Rines get elec rts, which skulks cant touch. > aliens get fade > If fade is good, aliens win > If fade is poor rines win.
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Sep 3 2004, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Sep 3 2004, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 3 2004, 03:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 3 2004, 03:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The myth of the "super onos" is ****. Why? Because the onos hitbox use to be the size of a marine, if you knew how to aim, it died twice as fast as the one now, but sadly most noobies didn't, thus, this is why it is a MYTH. The onos now is no weaker than the one from 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is bad reasoning. Onos WAS STRONGER, simply beause of smaller hitbox. It doesn't matter that theoretically it was weaker, reality is what counts! Remember 1.04 onos? It was able to stand multiple HA without problem.. Even for people who knew where to shoot, it was were hard to kill it, hitbox was small and you simply didn't see it most of the time. Also, guns like SG or HMG have big spread, so on the range most bullets were missing.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember killing 1.0-2.0 onos from all the thousands of scrims I've been in, so it's nothing new to me, and I remember how easy it was to kill them. In reality the onos is no different in competitive play, infact it's a little stronger at close range. The only reason the onos <b>seemed</b> any stronger was because of Mr X pubber you played with that just sprayed at the model randomly.
Yomosis - and guess what counts and where are 98% or more player minutes? Pubs.. It doesnt matter if onos was weak in competive games, skulks were very weak in 1.0x hardcore CW too (if you knew the hitbox). But pubs are what counts, most people play exclusively on pubs only.. And there, on pubs, both skulks and onis were much stronger...
Don't forget that vast majority of people will never read this forum, they will never try to figure out that some hitbox is buggy and they had to shoot somewhere else. .. It's not stupidity, they just treat the game as a game :-)
wrong development? CO is totally a mistake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yep... because now NS is played like CO - just with structures and res nodes... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two things I have to comment about this:
Regardless CO is totally a mistake or not, it did bring out some things into NS: 1) The average pubber learns to defeat a skulk/fade or whatever because CO is a player versus player environment than a RTS game.
Not only that, we have super-skulks and fades optimized to emphasize their power (with multiple upgrades per type of chambers) and therefore much more stronger than the aliens in NS mode.
2) The average pubber, that plays CO, uses nearly the same mindset in NS. This is BAD.
Generally, this doesn't affect the marine side too much because there's a strict command, but it's devestating on the alien side. Unlike CO, if an onos die or fade die, it's a HUGE loss to the team. Furthermore, the aliens are much weaker (limited to one upgrade per chamber) and the marines are generally stronger (no longer have to balance weapons lvl and armor lvl with their guns/shotties/etc. Commander does that).
The skill-level of dodging and attacking would've come out regardless of CO (point #1). I'm worried about point #2 and how it affects the game. I could be wrong, but I've noticed a lot of the times how aliens win is with key higher-forms not dying and generally holding off marine team (I know there are exceptions).
I really have no suggestion how to fix that, since my idea would to balance the two types of games differently, and we already know that Flayra is not going to go that direction. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The worst thing about NS is the horrible unbalance. Marines can kill skulks almost just by looking at them. Aliens are supposed to ambush. Get MT and gg ambush. And even if you manage to attack a marine from behind, he flies through the room (and pwnz you with his 1337 pistol script kekeke). Higher lifeforms are supposed to be effective killers (or something). Get a pair of shotties and gg aliens.
So it's obvious that the Devs like marines, since they have given them so much power. I hope B5 will fix these unbalances. I just don't know how much longer people can wait.
All classes that cost resources (especially as much as the Onos) are destined to use hit-and-run tactics unless they are powerful enough to withstand pretty much anything (which in turn makes it even better as a hit-and-run unit). Simple psychology: why risk anything if you don't have to? You can't do much to change that no matter how much you play around with the balance. You could if you changed the game mechanics, but the last change of any significance made to that was the untying of life forms from hives back in 2.0.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The worst thing about NS is the horrible unbalance. Marines can kill skulks almost just by looking at them. Aliens are supposed to ambush. Get MT and gg ambush. And even if you manage to attack a marine from behind, he flies through the room (and pwnz you with his 1337 pistol script kekeke). Higher lifeforms are supposed to be effective killers (or something). Get a pair of shotties and gg aliens.
So it's obvious that the Devs like marines, since they have given them so much power. I hope B5 will fix these unbalances. I just don't know how much longer people can wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not look for yourself.. B5 Changelog/release date is out.
So, if you made a single fade able to live though two shotgunners, that means in order to kill it, you would need three shotgunners. That means if, at any point, the alien team got three fades, how many shotguns would you need to realisitically kill them if they all attacked at the same time? Think about it. Really. Think about what you mean by balance, and what OTHER changes that balance might have on gameplay, then give your suggestions.
Not sure what kind of servers you play on but trying to kill a smart and pretty skilled fade is pretty hard, even with 2 shotguns. It requires planning, ambush, and good aim. If a fade blinks into 5 or 6 shotties and dies, well, he deserves to die. That doesn't mean he sucks, it could be bad luck or miscommunication, it happens. Just like a light marine entering a room with 3 ambushing skulks, chances are he's mincemeat.
Remember those early days? It were the atmospheric days. Everything was new, these huge scary sci-fi maps looked so cool yet scary at the same time. Because you didn't know it and also a skulk could leap out of nowhere. Everything felt great. You slowly proceeded to the hive as you checked every corner and ceiling. You slowly scanned the rooms for aliens. I loved it.
NS has lost all this.. well, at least for me. You know what happens. It doesn't have the unique cool scary sci-fi feeling anymore. It's just like an action shooter tbh. "Oh, an onos. Drop us some shotties so we can rush it." Remember how everyone got scared like hell and ran away for it screaming "Omg, what the hell is that?! Ruuun!".
I wish I could get that same feeling back. But I guess after I've seen it all now, it won't come back that easy. Maybe a port to HL2 will change something. But I doubt it..
I stopped playing regular NS because it seems like every game ends in a two hive lockdown. The Alien team then makes some desperate rushes with a one-hive Onos or a couple one-hive Fades and maybe breaks one of the lock-downs for a while then the Marines siege, prance around the map locking everything down for 20 minutes before ending the game. The only time Aliens seem to win in NS classic is when the Marines don't have a Comm for the first few minutes or they are just fooling around.
I found a server that plays CO maps with Marines vs Marines, and a few siege maps. These are fun and both sides have a good chance to win.
What I truly HATE about classic NS is the Alien end-game; where you have to sit around waiting for 1/2 hour the Marines to decide to kill your last hive, when there is nothing you can do, but hittng F4 is cheap.
The strange thing is, when people post their server logs, they show a near 50/50 for both teams win/loss for classic NS. Can anyone else confirm this?
The marine tech that pisses me off the most is the Phase Gate, you used to be able to block them or build an OC on top of them so you could destroy a budding forward base. But the devs decided that if you try to block a gate you either get instantly killed or now I think you get pushed away. Frankly I never saw a problem with phase-blocking no matter what team I was on, I don't know why they changed this. It seems like many effective stratagies are removed from the game as soon as they are discovered, making the game less fun.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tasty+Sep 3 2004, 11:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tasty @ Sep 3 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I stopped playing regular NS because it seems like every game ends in a two hive lockdown. The Alien team then makes some desperate rushes with a one-hive Onos or a couple one-hive Fades and maybe breaks one of the lock-downs for a while then the Marines siege, prance around the map locking everything down for 20 minutes before ending the game. The only time Aliens seem to win in NS classic is when the Marines don't have a Comm for the first few minutes or they are just fooling around.
I found a server that plays CO maps with Marines vs Marines, and a few siege maps. These are fun and both sides have a good chance to win.
What I truly HATE about classic NS is the Alien end-game; where you have to sit around waiting for 1/2 hour the Marines to decide to kill your last hive, when there is nothing you can do, but hittng F4 is cheap.
The strange thing is, when people post their server logs, they show a near 50/50 for both teams win/loss for classic NS. Can anyone else confirm this?
The marine tech that pisses me off the most is the Phase Gate, you used to be able to block them or build an OC on top of them so you could destroy a budding forward base. But the devs decided that if you try to block a gate you either get instantly killed or now I think you get pushed away. Frankly I never saw a problem with phase-blocking no matter what team I was on, I don't know why they changed this. It seems like many effective stratagies are removed from the game as soon as they are discovered, making the game less fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe the 50/50 win lost rate.
It's a matter of quality really. You start off with marines winning the first few times, which would encourage aliens to work together a bit harder. But, on the marine side, you end up with people getting bored of building, guarding, then winning with equipment that they rambo off and kill aliens. Then aliens win because marines didn't do something fast enough, or their comm made a big mistake.
I definately believe the 50/50 win/lose rate, in fact I think the C.A.P. public server has a higher alien win rate than marines, 60/40 maybe. Factors are you need team players, people who are willing to drop nodes early in the game. You need skulks who are smart enough to think, hey, I should kill marine RTs before they tech up where they can slaughter us with lvl 2 or 3 weapons, and people who know there are better fades on the team so they would rather save for hive or drop RTs/chambers.
Marines can get screwed if commander decides to go turrets first or something silly, lvl 0 armor marines are very easy to kill unless you're one of those skulkers that likes to run at the marines in a long hallway. Skulk 90% loses when going after a marine in the long hallways. 10% the marine dies because his mouse breaks, he's taking a leak, or the guy who is playing is handicapped by being blind.
What the hell do I have to be constructive about? You posted yet another god damn "sob weep ns isn't fun any more" thread, not like we haven't had six hundred in the past. There's nothing to construct. You need to move on and go pound your pud somewhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The exit is located in the upper right hand corner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!! You know about that, and yet managed not to use it?
You are more of a failure than I knew. Why you're telling <i>me</i> about it, no one knows. I'm not the one posting the same old hackneyed foolishness in gen disc (I post exciting, innovative foolishness).
But really, get the hell out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on. All your going to do is turn this into a flame war and get this locked, so stop while your ahead.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
I think there's too much CO in Ns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-JezPuh+Sep 3 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JezPuh @ Sep 3 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember those early days? It were the atmospheric days. Everything was new, these huge scary sci-fi maps looked so cool yet scary at the same time. Because you didn't know it and also a skulk could leap out of nowhere. Everything felt great. You slowly proceeded to the hive as you checked every corner and ceiling. You slowly scanned the rooms for aliens. I loved it.
NS has lost all this.. well, at least for me. You know what happens. It doesn't have the unique cool scary sci-fi feeling anymore. It's just like an action shooter tbh. "Oh, an onos. Drop us some shotties so we can rush it." Remember how everyone got scared like hell and ran away for it screaming "Omg, what the hell is that?! Ruuun!".
I wish I could get that same feeling back. But I guess after I've seen it all now, it won't come back that easy. Maybe a port to HL2 will change something. But I doubt it.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think part of that doesnt have to do with the game being new. Yeah, it was atmospheric while I was new, <b>but I wasnt new for the entire first months of NS.</b> After the first five, four, or even three, maybe two days, the games atmosphericness still is in there, you just have seen everything already, theres nothing new to gawk at. Being afraid of an onos because you've just seen it and your new, or because its extreamly, extreamly powerful are two different ball games, we happen to be playing the first one.
Remove bloody devour and stomp, give it some manly abilities, put a second hive restriction on that sucker, make it one hundred and twenty res, and let it loose! (with lots of hp!)
Hell maybe even a team cap of ONE ONOS PER TEAM would be good too, then you could make it absolutly all mighty and you wouldnt have to face more than one. Theres <b>a lot</b> of things that can be done differently.
then you would have people fighting over who goes onos... I would like to see elect rts removed or changed. Also weakened marine static defenses and maybe improved mines. The turrets are better at killing then most pubbers and comms shouldnt depend on AI to do the killing. I play ns to fight and play with humans if i want AI ill play star craft.
Someone else posted the idea that in order to become an Onos, you fist have to evolve to fade thus:
45 res= <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> + 100 res = <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> (100 rather than the current 75 res)
Vary the res values however you want, but make the final Onos *much* more powerful and costly than the current light tank we have now.
This seemed like a logical way to make the Onos more awe-inspiring and fun.
The only problem I can see is those two-hive lockdowns where you need a base buster, i.e. the alien comeback (which is almost not existent now)
Comments
i still have 2.0 and 3.0 beta4a, and using Half-Life model viewer, the hitboxes since then havent changed at all.
[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HLMV hitboxes aren't the ones that are used in the game... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
/edit: typo <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gj let your pressures out! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
THe b4 will come soon and save us!!111eleven
i still have 2.0 and 3.0 beta4a, and using Half-Life model viewer, the hitboxes since then havent changed at all.
[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HLMV hitboxes aren't the ones that are used in the game... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
/edit: typo <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
my bad.
gj let your pressures out! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
THe b4 will come soon and save us!!111eleven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh... b4 is already out m8 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
we're waiting for b5 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Agreed.
What the hell do I have to be constructive about? You posted yet another god damn "sob weep ns isn't fun any more" thread, not like we haven't had six hundred in the past. There's nothing to construct. You need to move on and go pound your pud somewhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The exit is located in the upper right hand corner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!! You know about that, and yet managed not to use it?
You are more of a failure than I knew. Why you're telling <i>me</i> about it, no one knows. I'm not the one posting the same old hackneyed foolishness in gen disc (I post exciting, innovative foolishness).
But really, get the hell out.
Plz just ignore and get the hell out urself, moreover ur posts keep the thread on top of the list.
If you dont like it, let it die by not posting.
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This is bad reasoning. Onos WAS STRONGER, simply beause of smaller hitbox. It doesn't matter that theoretically it was weaker, reality is what counts! Remember 1.04 onos? It was able to stand multiple HA without problem..
Even for people who knew where to shoot, it was were hard to kill it, hitbox was small and you simply didn't see it most of the time. Also, guns like SG or HMG have big spread, so on the range most bullets were missing..
Regarding epic games - perhaps it's just a coincidence, but I had 3 epic games just yesterday :-) With really funny elements or a game where aliens won with 0 hives day before it. NS is still very fun if you play it on server with experienced players and teams are balanced.
I will try to briefly describe 50min game I had yesterday..
It was mineshaft, hive was tram, I was alien. We made some early attack on base, killing IP, but marines relocated to u-turn, blocking us from drill. Marines controlled old base, sewer and surrounding res towers. We had MC as a first chamber, so we decided to sneaky put sewer up (they had just RT there, no PG yet), I put it up and they found it when it was about 2/3 done and quickly built PG there for SG rush. But of course MC from tram was working and we won very intense fight there, hive barely survived.
Now we got upper hand, with 2 hives.. Marines still had drill/u-turn and thanx to beacon old base too. We tried several attacks with fades/onos on the old base, but one beacon that included HA too killed 2 onos and fade :-) So both old base and u-turn were still in the hands of marines, and they already had all upgrades (3/3 + ha).
They tried one or two PG+SG rushes, but these were quickly eliminated.
Later, while we were trying to eliminate their presence in old base again, one sneaky marine got into tram and they established big siege base there. This time we were unlucky and lost the fight and tram, going down to 1 hive..
Now it was marine turn again, they started killing our res, slowly expanding over almost all res towers. We tried to put drill up, with idea to heal it from sieges and do not prevent marines to go inside it from u-turn. It almost worked, hive was at about 95% when it died, because we were unable to hold HA long enough..
People in team started to be desperate, but we still had res, so we decided to make onos rush on their main base - u-turn. 5 people went onos and the rush started, it was very good, we lost just 1 onos in the attack and marines lost u-turn. We tried to continue with onos attack, cleaning out double was easy, but onos that attacked marine start died because of beacon and last 3 onis which decided to attack tram (their new base) died in the instant. Marines were prepared and set a nice ambush to us..
So now we had 1 RT, 1 hive and no onoses or fades, while marines were rebuilding base too. We quickly rebuilt res and hive, and got 2 hives up and about half of the map. Marines had tram, double, marine start and gen and were pushing through heavilly lamed cave. It was very hard to attack double or tram directly. But we decided to try MC rush again, new base was directly under tram hive, I sneaked in as a gorge with onos distracting them from the side and quickly built hive. The hell started again, we lost many higher-aliens but skulks finished it, we ultimately won the game after about 50 mins of exciting game..
Just meh 2 cents (didnt read topic)
I don't think it's so much to do with the game itself as with the players. There are a lot of players who detract from the enjoyment of the game.
1) Newbies, who through no fault of their don't really know what to do in certain situations and don't know the maps very well. That's not a problem, because if they stick around they'll learn.
2) People who've played for a very long time and think that everyone should do as they say, start eject-votes whenever they don't instantly get a medpack, and blame everyone else in their team when they lose. This sort of nonsense is unlikely to encourage Newbies to stick around and enjoy the game.
However, having said all that, I had a couple of really great games last night, on ns_veil and ns_lost. The games lasted about an hour each and were a constant series of mini-battles, with the marines taking one hive and the aliens retaking another. The teams were fairly well-balanced and control of the different areas of the map was constantly changing hands.
When a phase gate/turret factory was sneaked into place outside a hive the entire alien team would work together to take it down, while at the same time the marines were setting up.
It was a good, fun game and nobody was taking things too seriously and getting upset, and when we finally lost everyone said what a good game it had been.
Epic NS battles do still happen, and when they do it reminds you of what a great game it is.
The only thing missing are scorpions that hover without flapping, but maybe Beta 5 will correct that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Rines get elec rts, which skulks cant touch. > aliens get fade > If fade is good, aliens win > If fade is poor rines win.
this becomes boaring FAST.
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This is bad reasoning. Onos WAS STRONGER, simply beause of smaller hitbox. It doesn't matter that theoretically it was weaker, reality is what counts! Remember 1.04 onos? It was able to stand multiple HA without problem..
Even for people who knew where to shoot, it was were hard to kill it, hitbox was small and you simply didn't see it most of the time. Also, guns like SG or HMG have big spread, so on the range most bullets were missing..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember killing 1.0-2.0 onos from all the thousands of scrims I've been in, so it's nothing new to me, and I remember how easy it was to kill them. In reality the onos is no different in competitive play, infact it's a little stronger at close range. The only reason the onos <b>seemed</b> any stronger was because of Mr X pubber you played with that just sprayed at the model randomly.
It doesnt matter if onos was weak in competive games, skulks were very weak in 1.0x hardcore CW too (if you knew the hitbox). But pubs are what counts, most people play exclusively on pubs only.. And there, on pubs, both skulks and onis were much stronger...
Don't forget that vast majority of people will never read this forum, they will never try to figure out that some hitbox is buggy and they had to shoot somewhere else. .. It's not stupidity, they just treat the game as a game :-)
wrong development?
CO is totally a mistake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep... because now NS is played like CO - just with structures and res nodes... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two things I have to comment about this:
Regardless CO is totally a mistake or not, it did bring out some things into NS:
1) The average pubber learns to defeat a skulk/fade or whatever because CO is a player versus player environment than a RTS game.
Not only that, we have super-skulks and fades optimized to emphasize their power (with multiple upgrades per type of chambers) and therefore much more stronger than the aliens in NS mode.
2) The average pubber, that plays CO, uses nearly the same mindset in NS. This is BAD.
Generally, this doesn't affect the marine side too much because there's a strict command, but it's devestating on the alien side. Unlike CO, if an onos die or fade die, it's a HUGE loss to the team. Furthermore, the aliens are much weaker (limited to one upgrade per chamber) and the marines are generally stronger (no longer have to balance weapons lvl and armor lvl with their guns/shotties/etc. Commander does that).
The skill-level of dodging and attacking would've come out regardless of CO (point #1). I'm worried about point #2 and how it affects the game. I could be wrong, but I've noticed a lot of the times how aliens win is with key higher-forms not dying and generally holding off marine team (I know there are exceptions).
I really have no suggestion how to fix that, since my idea would to balance the two types of games differently, and we already know that Flayra is not going to go that direction. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
maybe b5 will be the answer to our co woes.
ohh, btw, celerity cara focus regen meta fade ftw.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So it's obvious that the Devs like marines, since they have given them so much power. I hope B5 will fix these unbalances. I just don't know how much longer people can wait.
So it's obvious that the Devs like marines, since they have given them so much power. I hope B5 will fix these unbalances. I just don't know how much longer people can wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not look for yourself.. B5 Changelog/release date is out.
NS has lost all this.. well, at least for me. You know what happens. It doesn't have the unique cool scary sci-fi feeling anymore. It's just like an action shooter tbh. "Oh, an onos. Drop us some shotties so we can rush it." Remember how everyone got scared like hell and ran away for it screaming "Omg, what the hell is that?! Ruuun!".
I wish I could get that same feeling back. But I guess after I've seen it all now, it won't come back that easy. Maybe a port to HL2 will change something. But I doubt it..
I found a server that plays CO maps with Marines vs Marines, and a few siege maps. These are fun and both sides have a good chance to win.
What I truly HATE about classic NS is the Alien end-game; where you have to sit around waiting for 1/2 hour the Marines to decide to kill your last hive, when there is nothing you can do, but hittng F4 is cheap.
The strange thing is, when people post their server logs, they show a near 50/50 for both teams win/loss for classic NS. Can anyone else confirm this?
The marine tech that pisses me off the most is the Phase Gate, you used to be able to block them or build an OC on top of them so you could destroy a budding forward base. But the devs decided that if you try to block a gate you either get instantly killed or now I think you get pushed away. Frankly I never saw a problem with phase-blocking no matter what team I was on, I don't know why they changed this. It seems like many effective stratagies are removed from the game as soon as they are discovered, making the game less fun.
I found a server that plays CO maps with Marines vs Marines, and a few siege maps. These are fun and both sides have a good chance to win.
What I truly HATE about classic NS is the Alien end-game; where you have to sit around waiting for 1/2 hour the Marines to decide to kill your last hive, when there is nothing you can do, but hittng F4 is cheap.
The strange thing is, when people post their server logs, they show a near 50/50 for both teams win/loss for classic NS. Can anyone else confirm this?
The marine tech that pisses me off the most is the Phase Gate, you used to be able to block them or build an OC on top of them so you could destroy a budding forward base. But the devs decided that if you try to block a gate you either get instantly killed or now I think you get pushed away. Frankly I never saw a problem with phase-blocking no matter what team I was on, I don't know why they changed this. It seems like many effective stratagies are removed from the game as soon as they are discovered, making the game less fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe the 50/50 win lost rate.
It's a matter of quality really. You start off with marines winning the first few times, which would encourage aliens to work together a bit harder. But, on the marine side, you end up with people getting bored of building, guarding, then winning with equipment that they rambo off and kill aliens. Then aliens win because marines didn't do something fast enough, or their comm made a big mistake.
Marines can get screwed if commander decides to go turrets first or something silly, lvl 0 armor marines are very easy to kill unless you're one of those skulkers that likes to run at the marines in a long hallway. Skulk 90% loses when going after a marine in the long hallways. 10% the marine dies because his mouse breaks, he's taking a leak, or the guy who is playing is handicapped by being blind.
Agreed.
What the hell do I have to be constructive about? You posted yet another god damn "sob weep ns isn't fun any more" thread, not like we haven't had six hundred in the past. There's nothing to construct. You need to move on and go pound your pud somewhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The exit is located in the upper right hand corner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!! You know about that, and yet managed not to use it?
You are more of a failure than I knew. Why you're telling <i>me</i> about it, no one knows. I'm not the one posting the same old hackneyed foolishness in gen disc (I post exciting, innovative foolishness).
But really, get the hell out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on. All your going to do is turn this into a flame war and get this locked, so stop while your ahead.
NS has lost all this.. well, at least for me. You know what happens. It doesn't have the unique cool scary sci-fi feeling anymore. It's just like an action shooter tbh. "Oh, an onos. Drop us some shotties so we can rush it." Remember how everyone got scared like hell and ran away for it screaming "Omg, what the hell is that?! Ruuun!".
I wish I could get that same feeling back. But I guess after I've seen it all now, it won't come back that easy. Maybe a port to HL2 will change something. But I doubt it.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think part of that doesnt have to do with the game being new. Yeah, it was atmospheric while I was new, <b>but I wasnt new for the entire first months of NS.</b> After the first five, four, or even three, maybe two days, the games atmosphericness still is in there, you just have seen everything already, theres nothing new to gawk at. Being afraid of an onos because you've just seen it and your new, or because its extreamly, extreamly powerful are two different ball games, we happen to be playing the first one.
Remove bloody devour and stomp, give it some manly abilities, put a second hive restriction on that sucker, make it one hundred and twenty res, and let it loose! (with lots of hp!)
Hell maybe even a team cap of ONE ONOS PER TEAM would be good too, then you could make it absolutly all mighty and you wouldnt have to face more than one. Theres <b>a lot</b> of things that can be done differently.
I would like to see elect rts removed or changed. Also weakened marine static defenses and maybe improved mines. The turrets are better at killing then most pubbers and comms shouldnt depend on AI to do the killing. I play ns to fight and play with humans if i want AI ill play star craft.
45 res= <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> + 100 res = <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> (100 rather than the current 75 res)
Vary the res values however you want, but make the final Onos *much* more powerful and costly than the current light tank we have now.
This seemed like a logical way to make the Onos more awe-inspiring and fun.
The only problem I can see is those two-hive lockdowns where you need a base buster, i.e. the alien comeback (which is almost not existent now)