If the aliens camp on med drops then they are not doing any damage to the Marines, so they wont need to land to pick up the med drops. Also, any commander smart enough to research Jetpacks is smart enough to scatter a few all around the hive room, so camping on them does not work.
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> Yes fades can take out Jetpacks, but not before they kill the hive. The new ability of Jetpacks to move in directions other then up and down makes killing them with fades time consuming and difficult. And remember, the jetpackers can always just keep shooting the fade, and has a decent chance of killing it.
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> Lerks can take out Jetpacks, although it usualy takes a while, and chances are that the lerk is going to eat a point blank shotgun blast first.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> Skulks usualy just eat a few bullets and die, it requires significant time, luck, and skill to kill competent jetpackers with skulks.
The only real counter is having the entire alien team bouncing around the hive room trying to kill them, and that still usualy results in a bunch of dead jetpackers, a dead hive, and a bunch of dead aliens. Piles of OC's work, but they are expensive, and really only serve to weaken JP'ers unless they are stacked up in Uber amounts.
Although, stacking WOL's in the entrances to the hives does work quite well, but again this is very expensive, and it just makes the marines go get a couple of grenade launchers.
I find that people who temp the mcs put them all in the same spot... It's amazing how effective it is to parasite them to death. Takes off 10 hp and that would be 7 or so shots on a marine that's been bitten once. 75hp no armour....
Oh well don't believe me then.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Talking about combat I can say with confidence a fade without focus hardly ever kills me IN AIR. When I touch the ground the fade can hit me for sure but even a skulk could just camp there and hit me. Lerks are no counter to a decent JP/SG marine because they will die before they can bite two times. Webs are the only counter to JPs in combat right now. Without web only a horde of jumping, leaping, blinking and flying aliens can kill a JP.
Movement chambers should slow down the movement of all marines close to them (by 30% or something). That would be a real counter to JPs.
<!--QuoteBegin-HA|Striker+Sep 21 2004, 03:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ Sep 21 2004, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Talking about combat I can say with confidence a fade without focus hardly ever kills me IN AIR. When I touch the ground the fade can hit me for sure but even a skulk could just camp there and hit me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You sir are the best JP then i ever heard of. A decent fade can blink/swipe a jp marine. It takes 2-3 blinks. or more if he got meds.
<!--QuoteBegin-Slayer+Sep 21 2004, 05:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Slayer @ Sep 21 2004, 05:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You sir are the best JP then i ever heard of. A decent fade can blink/swipe a jp marine. It takes 2-3 blinks. or more if he got meds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, by the time you blink after him however many times and finish him off, he and the rest of the JPs have killed your hive. Mission accomplished. JPers don't care if they die, they're just going kamikaze on your hive. Being able to kill them eventually is not a good enough counter considering the nature of JP rushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You sir are the best JP then i ever heard of.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually it depends on the location. In a small corridor even a newbie can hit a JP marine. Try this in a large room or better in a large room with some places to hide or block (eg. the new combat map). It takes ages to kill a JP in those hives.
Maybe skill is the counter to the JP but the problem is sometimes you will not just meet a JP but a skilled marine with a JP. gg.
<!--QuoteBegin-BigBull+Sep 18 2004, 09:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigBull @ Sep 18 2004, 09:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or you could get some teamwork and skill on aliens.
As everyone knows. Oc's block doorways. When they attack it, look at your hivesight. Go teamwork kill the jp. WOw how hard! I see alot of these threads nowadays, about countering and its too hard. When NS in the early days had THINKERS we didnt talk about "WE NEED COUNTER OMG" we used teamwork.
Oc's. Hivesight. Ambush. How hard.
And onos is an easy counter for jetpacks. Go take out the protolab.
OMG whats the counter to onos. Turrets. OMG whats the counter for turrents!
omg bilebomb omg whats counter for gorge!
omg everything!\
It all goes down to teamwork. Or take out thier res. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->my suggestion to give the aliens a better chance to catch JPers is to beef up the OC and give them back a few selected raged attacks. Give the lerk back his spikes and let him use his bite at hive 1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we can have another thread entitled? "What is the Counter to Lerk?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> These aren't counters and that wasn't productive at all. This post wasn't about how to prevent them from getting jetpacks, this was about how to kill a jetpacker. The counter to something should NEVER be "don't allow them to get it". That is just not viable.
Accept it, currently there is no counter to a squad JPs in the hive room. The best way to defeat JPs is not letting them get near the hive.(which is very hard, but you can do it)
But you usually wont encouter JPs when the both teams may win. Most comms will invest in an HA-train instead of a bunch of highhopping Jps unless the rines already own the whole map.
What do you prefer an nearly unstoppable train of doom or some JPs who might die unluckily.
SO there is no reall counter to JPs cause when you meet them its usually too late.
For combat they are a little bit uber and you might want to try webs. Since there are usually some Gls it wont work, but you tried.
Ever played co_lemmings if not let me tell you that this map will force you to learn to lerk anew. A focus,cele lerk can take out a JPrine hence he can even take out an HArine. Its all about not catching their attention fly towards them(from behind of course) take 1-2 bites and retreat in the direction they came from. As soon as the rine continous is journey to the hive ger close again and finish him off. And stay away from groups 2+ they are not good for <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> s.
But <b><u>OMG DONT LET THEM GET JP!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111</u></b> you NOOB!!
On a more serious side, I suppose all you can do without hive 3 is train at leaping/blinking at jetpackers, and figure out when the best time to do so is.
By the way, what kind of hive room are we talking about? In the order of least <i>jetpack</i>-friendly first, ns_hera archiving, data core delta, or ventilation?
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Sep 19 2004, 02:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Sep 19 2004, 02:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can a single fade reliably take out a single JP at the hive if we assume equal skill? Remember that the skill curve for a good JP is much shallower than that for a good fade.
Given that that hive grants extra healing to the aliens near it, I tend to feel that if it takes 2 or more aliens (between 30 - 60 res each) to take out one JP (15 res + weapon), at the hive, then there's something of an imbalance here. Simply being at the hive should give something of an advantage, yes?
If not however, if a single fade can reliably take down a single JP at similar skill levels, it probably isn't a balance problem.
Now fun is something else entirely. I know I have trouble even keeping track of a JP in the hive area. Then again, I don't play with insane gamma levels either.. dark is actually dark, and black is _black_. Then again maybe this is just one of those things where the frame-rate is important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Frame rate is really important when killing JP's, so you can see the little blue trails they leave behind
Lerks and fades have pretty much always been the counter for jp's, I remember a time when all you had to go on was the lerk in 1.0, either you had extremely bad marines or extremely skilled lerks. Personally I think people have just forgotten why lerks have bite (and a lack of decent lerks in pubs or in clan play for that fact).
The whole reason lerks were given back bite was so they could mid-air jps once again. In pubs you rarely find someone going lerk that can do more than just sit there a spore or a fade that doesn't know how to control his air speed and hit a jper. A decent cara/cele lerk with 2 hives and umbra'ing itself can be extremely deadly to jpers, but even just a cara lerk can wait for the fade to go in and the marines waste ammo on it, while the lerk flys in and trys to finish them off.
Cara makes the lerk much harder to kill, but most people still go regen because of the old 2.0 "hide'N'spore lerk" and die from one shotgun hit or even from a few pistol shots.
There are a lot more counters for jps(rush 3 hives and use web, leap bite them, devour them, etc) but for PvP, fades and lerks counter jps.
<!--QuoteBegin-Radagast+Sep 21 2004, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Radagast @ Sep 21 2004, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Question: What Is The Counter To Jps?</b>
<u>Answer: Skill.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Question: How much more skill does it take to kill a decent JPer than it takes to play one?</b>
<u>Answer: A lot.</u>
Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Sep 21 2004, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Sep 21 2004, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I agree that lerks are too weak, I still don't think the jp is to blame. The jp is counterable, but the counters are just weak. There's no reason to blame it for the fact aliens are underpowered (somewhat) to begin with. Simply nerfing jps wont fix the source of the problem, perhaps it would be best to start at the root. :/
Personally I think the problem is, jp should be somewhat hard to kill, I mean fades arn't that easy to kill, why should jps be? They cost resources too just like the fade or onos or any other unit. I think the problem is the amount of hp marine nodes have, 5000 hp vs 3000 for aliens, while they both cost the same(but even then you still need 10 res for gorge). Right now, if you kill a jp or even a ha, it seems like its nothing compared to loosing a fade or an onos on aliens, this is what makes jps seem overpowered imo. If a jp or ha dies, he should have to suffer, just like a fade that dies, but instead he comes right back because it takes so long to kill the marine nodes. This enables them to keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp. Dn has proven this in many scrims/matches, no matter how bad the jper, he seems to come right back, in the end you just give up trying to kill him because they can hit your nodes faster than you can hit theirs.
An effective JP tactic I used to see in Pubs and Clan matches was a tech rush to JP and upon an unsuccessful JP rush on the hive what the COMM would do is drop a few JP/SG on good players and they would go fly around and harass the hive (I've seen this done pretty effectively with 1 JP/SGer as harassment bait). This would attract the attention of a majority of the alien players while a few LMGers go kill alien RTs pretty much uncontested. If you can afford to handout even just JP/LMGs to a few other people they can kill RTs that much faster.
<u>Answer: Skill.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Question: How much more skill does it take to kill a decent JPer than it takes to play one?</b>
<u>Answer: A lot.</u>
Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> then i guess i have "a lot" of skill considering i can take down some of the best jpers in my country with some ease. Leap = dead jps.
In classic if marines have jps before aliens have 2 hives, aliens deserve to lose.
If you can take down a team of JPs shotty rushing your hive with just Leap or Blink before they succeed in killing the hive, then yeah, I'd say you have a lot of skill. That's a large number of flying targets, each of which take 3-4 non-focus bites to kill, and who only have to stay alive long enough to empty maybe 2 shotty clips each into the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Movement chambers should slow down the movement of all marines close to them (by 30% or something). That would be a real counter to JPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can see that being a pretty neat idea <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 21 2004, 06:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 21 2004, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Sep 21 2004, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Sep 21 2004, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I agree that lerks are too weak, I still don't think the jp is to blame. The jp is counterable, but the counters are just weak. There's no reason to blame it for the fact aliens are underpowered (somewhat) to begin with. Simply nerfing jps wont fix the source of the problem, perhaps it would be best to start at the root. :/
Personally I think the problem is, jp should be somewhat hard to kill, I mean fades arn't that easy to kill, why should jps be? They cost resources too just like the fade or onos or any other unit. I think the problem is the amount of hp marine nodes have, 5000 hp vs 3000 for aliens, while they both cost the same(but even then you still need 10 res for gorge). Right now, if you kill a jp or even a ha, it seems like its nothing compared to loosing a fade or an onos on aliens, this is what makes jps seem overpowered imo. If a jp or ha dies, he should have to suffer, just like a fade that dies, but instead he comes right back because it takes so long to kill the marine nodes. This enables them to keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp. Dn has proven this in many scrims/matches, no matter how bad the jper, he seems to come right back, in the end you just give up trying to kill him because they can hit your nodes faster than you can hit theirs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But yumosis how often do you see jps at 4:00 and how often do you see fades at 4:00 hes already payed his res/time cost before getting the jp. the fades is split between after and before being a fade.
Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try.
Unless the rines are specifically jp rushing, you wont find jps before 7-8 minutes. And if they are at 4 minutes, then they wil have at most lvl 1 armour and lvl 1-2 damage. Fades can kill em quite easy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So the answer is to increase alien node health by like 500. That was the 2.00 value before it was lowered to account for the alien dominace back then.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 22 2004, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 22 2004, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 22 2004, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So the answer is to increase alien node health by like 500. That was the 2.00 value before it was lowered to account for the alien dominace back then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking maybe lower marine node hp to around 4500-4000 as well, but thats a good start.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Individual res vs team shared res. (Not to mention cost and evolve vs. equip time)
Comments
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> Yes fades can take out Jetpacks, but not before they kill the hive. The new ability of Jetpacks to move in directions other then up and down makes killing them with fades time consuming and difficult. And remember, the jetpackers can always just keep shooting the fade, and has a decent chance of killing it.
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> Lerks can take out Jetpacks, although it usualy takes a while, and chances are that the lerk is going to eat a point blank shotgun blast first.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> Skulks usualy just eat a few bullets and die, it requires significant time, luck, and skill to kill competent jetpackers with skulks.
The only real counter is having the entire alien team bouncing around the hive room trying to kill them, and that still usualy results in a bunch of dead jetpackers, a dead hive, and a bunch of dead aliens. Piles of OC's work, but they are expensive, and really only serve to weaken JP'ers unless they are stacked up in
Uber amounts.
Although, stacking WOL's in the entrances to the hives does work quite well, but again this is very expensive, and it just makes the marines go get a couple of grenade launchers.
Oh well don't believe me then.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Movement chambers should slow down the movement of all marines close to them (by 30% or something). That would be a real counter to JPs.
It is much different in classic. You don't have focus.
You sir are the best JP then i ever heard of. A decent fade can blink/swipe a jp marine. It takes 2-3 blinks. or more if he got meds.
Well, by the time you blink after him however many times and finish him off, he and the rest of the JPs have killed your hive. Mission accomplished. JPers don't care if they die, they're just going kamikaze on your hive. Being able to kill them eventually is not a good enough counter considering the nature of JP rushes.
<u>Answer: Skill.</u>
<u>Answer: About 10% of the pub, give or take a few tens.</u>
I know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually it depends on the location. In a small corridor even a newbie can hit a JP marine. Try this in a large room or better in a large room with some places to hide or block (eg. the new combat map). It takes ages to kill a JP in those hives.
Maybe skill is the counter to the JP but the problem is sometimes you will not just meet a JP but a skilled marine with a JP. gg.
As everyone knows.
Oc's block doorways.
When they attack it, look at your hivesight. Go teamwork kill the jp. WOw how hard!
I see alot of these threads nowadays, about countering and its too hard.
When NS in the early days had THINKERS we didnt talk about "WE NEED COUNTER OMG" we used teamwork.
Oc's. Hivesight. Ambush. How hard.
And onos is an easy counter for jetpacks.
Go take out the protolab.
OMG whats the counter to onos.
Turrets.
OMG whats the counter for turrents!
omg bilebomb
omg whats counter for gorge!
omg everything!\
It all goes down to teamwork.
Or take out thier res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->my suggestion to give the aliens a better chance to catch JPers is to beef up the OC and give them back a few selected raged attacks. Give the lerk back his spikes and let him use his bite at hive 1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we can have another thread entitled?
"What is the Counter to Lerk?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
These aren't counters and that wasn't productive at all. This post wasn't about how to prevent them from getting jetpacks, this was about how to kill a jetpacker. The counter to something should NEVER be "don't allow them to get it". That is just not viable.
The best way to defeat JPs is not letting them get near the hive.(which is very hard, but you can do it)
But you usually wont encouter JPs when the both teams may win. Most comms will invest in an HA-train instead of a bunch of highhopping Jps unless the rines already own the whole map.
What do you prefer an nearly unstoppable train of doom or some JPs who might die unluckily.
SO there is no reall counter to JPs cause when you meet them its usually too late.
For combat they are a little bit uber and you might want to try webs. Since there are usually some Gls it wont work, but you tried.
Ever played co_lemmings if not let me tell you that this map will force you to learn to lerk anew. A focus,cele lerk can take out a JPrine hence he can even take out an HArine. Its all about not catching their attention fly towards them(from behind of course) take 1-2 bites and retreat in the direction they came from. As soon as the rine continous is journey to the hive ger close again and finish him off. And stay away from groups 2+ they are not good for <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> s.
edit *spelling*
On a more serious side, I suppose all you can do without hive 3 is train at leaping/blinking at jetpackers, and figure out when the best time to do so is.
By the way, what kind of hive room are we talking about? In the order of least <i>jetpack</i>-friendly first, ns_hera archiving, data core delta, or ventilation?
Remember that the skill curve for a good JP is much shallower than that for a good fade.
Given that that hive grants extra healing to the aliens near it, I tend to feel that if it takes 2 or more aliens (between 30 - 60 res each) to take out one JP (15 res + weapon), at the hive, then there's something of an imbalance here. Simply being at the hive should give something of an advantage, yes?
If not however, if a single fade can reliably take down a single JP at similar skill levels, it probably isn't a balance problem.
Now fun is something else entirely. I know I have trouble even keeping track of a JP in the hive area. Then again, I don't play with insane gamma levels either.. dark is actually dark, and black is _black_. Then again maybe this is just one of those things where the frame-rate is important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frame rate is really important when killing JP's, so you can see the little blue trails they leave behind
The whole reason lerks were given back bite was so they could mid-air jps once again. In pubs you rarely find someone going lerk that can do more than just sit there a spore or a fade that doesn't know how to control his air speed and hit a jper. A decent cara/cele lerk with 2 hives and umbra'ing itself can be extremely deadly to jpers, but even just a cara lerk can wait for the fade to go in and the marines waste ammo on it, while the lerk flys in and trys to finish them off.
Cara makes the lerk much harder to kill, but most people still go regen because of the old 2.0 "hide'N'spore lerk" and die from one shotgun hit or even from a few pistol shots.
There are a lot more counters for jps(rush 3 hives and use web, leap bite them, devour them, etc) but for PvP, fades and lerks counter jps.
<u>Answer: Skill.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Question: How much more skill does it take to kill a decent JPer than it takes to play one?</b>
<u>Answer: A lot.</u>
Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast.
While I agree that lerks are too weak, I still don't think the jp is to blame. The jp is counterable, but the counters are just weak. There's no reason to blame it for the fact aliens are underpowered (somewhat) to begin with. Simply nerfing jps wont fix the source of the problem, perhaps it would be best to start at the root. :/
Personally I think the problem is, jp should be somewhat hard to kill, I mean fades arn't that easy to kill, why should jps be? They cost resources too just like the fade or onos or any other unit. I think the problem is the amount of hp marine nodes have, 5000 hp vs 3000 for aliens, while they both cost the same(but even then you still need 10 res for gorge). Right now, if you kill a jp or even a ha, it seems like its nothing compared to loosing a fade or an onos on aliens, this is what makes jps seem overpowered imo. If a jp or ha dies, he should have to suffer, just like a fade that dies, but instead he comes right back because it takes so long to kill the marine nodes. This enables them to keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp. Dn has proven this in many scrims/matches, no matter how bad the jper, he seems to come right back, in the end you just give up trying to kill him because they can hit your nodes faster than you can hit theirs.
I think Yumosis has many good points.
<u>Answer: Skill.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Question: How much more skill does it take to kill a decent JPer than it takes to play one?</b>
<u>Answer: A lot.</u>
Yumosis, the main problem with the supposed Lerk counter is that Lerks are very fragile, and JPs usually come equipped with shotties. If the JP is good and he shifts his attention to the lerk that's chasing him, that thing is toast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
then i guess i have "a lot" of skill considering i can take down some of the best jpers in my country with some ease. Leap = dead jps.
In classic if marines have jps before aliens have 2 hives, aliens deserve to lose.
i can see that being a pretty neat idea <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While I agree that lerks are too weak, I still don't think the jp is to blame. The jp is counterable, but the counters are just weak. There's no reason to blame it for the fact aliens are underpowered (somewhat) to begin with. Simply nerfing jps wont fix the source of the problem, perhaps it would be best to start at the root. :/
Personally I think the problem is, jp should be somewhat hard to kill, I mean fades arn't that easy to kill, why should jps be? They cost resources too just like the fade or onos or any other unit. I think the problem is the amount of hp marine nodes have, 5000 hp vs 3000 for aliens, while they both cost the same(but even then you still need 10 res for gorge). Right now, if you kill a jp or even a ha, it seems like its nothing compared to loosing a fade or an onos on aliens, this is what makes jps seem overpowered imo. If a jp or ha dies, he should have to suffer, just like a fade that dies, but instead he comes right back because it takes so long to kill the marine nodes. This enables them to keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp. Dn has proven this in many scrims/matches, no matter how bad the jper, he seems to come right back, in the end you just give up trying to kill him because they can hit your nodes faster than you can hit theirs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But yumosis how often do you see jps at 4:00 and how often do you see fades at 4:00 hes already payed his res/time cost before getting the jp. the fades is split between after and before being a fade.
Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again
Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster.
Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the answer is to increase alien node health by like 500. That was the 2.00 value before it was lowered to account for the alien dominace back then.
Actually mosis a good fade, if he's kicking butt he will be able to get enough res from kills to go fade again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the same can be said for a jp'er, right now aliens rely totally on their fades owning, without them, even with 2 hives they are toast. If aliens loose a "Advanced Unit" it seems to take forever to replace it unless it got a ton of kills, even getting 20 kills from one fade will only land you 20-60 res, most of the time, that's just enough to refade. Now, this might work if the marines are bad, but what happens if they just keep killing nodes and avoiding you? The rest of your team will never get enough res to do anything. Right now, it takes around 6 lmg clips and about 15-16 shotgun shots to kill an alien node, to kill a marine node it takes 67 bites or 63 swipes. This seems rediculessly unbalanced considering alien nodes actually cost more, even if the aliens do tech slightly faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the answer is to increase alien node health by like 500. That was the 2.00 value before it was lowered to account for the alien dominace back then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking maybe lower marine node hp to around 4500-4000 as well, but thats a good start.
Individual res vs team shared res.
(Not to mention cost and evolve vs. equip time)