<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I The Only One Who Hates Bhop?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I blame HL physics-engine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I really hate it when a simple use of mouse-wheel can grant to any skulk free celerity and leap right from the start. Just yesterday some fellow made it with just TWO hops from the farther entrance of MS (in ns_Tanith) to the stairs of CC. Needless to say, I was pretty impressed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There is a term floating around called "skill progression." It's a term used to describe what "phase" of knowing this game you are at. Some people still don't know the names of all the places on the maps. Some people still don't understand how to fight NS style CQBs.
Your choice to use the words "good" and "new" are bang-on, since good players know how to bhop, wallstrafe, and various other NS tricks, and new players are generally clueless.
Learning how to bhop is part of getting better at the game. You should learn how to bhop if you want to play this game well because learning to bhop is expected of you. It's expected of you to learn to bhop because bhop is an intended part of the alien game. You're supposed to use it because it was left in for you to use it.
Of course, if you don't feel like learning, then by all means saddle the high horse. The world won't change for you.
<span style='color:yellow'>Who cares if it is or isn't an exploit?! <span style='color:gray'>If you have a problem with this, you are in the wrong forum. Go to steampowered.com, complain there. Not here. It's a HL engine issue. </span>And since everyone can do it equally it isn't a cheat and therefore you have:</span> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>no</b> argument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like what the other's said, bhopping is just another aspect of the game that someone has to learn if they want to get better. Yes it is true that people who have just started the game won't know how to bhop, but I'd be they don't know how to use a fade efficiently nor do they know how to use a lerk effectively, it's a wonder how many lerks I see on classic that chooses to dive into a group of marines with bite instead of sporing.
Those who don't know how to bhop and choose not to learn it, it's their loss. BHop isn't some super sekret skill only available to the people who are with the 'in' crowd, everyone can learn it if they take some time to ask a veteran who has the patience to help, ask a nsguide, I'm sure they'll help or even ask someone from nslearn, they've been teaching for a while now.
<!--QuoteBegin-agentx5+Sep 22 2004, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (agentx5 @ Sep 22 2004, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "get get get get get over it! Hey! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Should be your motto....
Flayra has already given his opinion on the subject, so......what's your argument? So it's a bug in the engine, so what? NS has managed to turn a bug into a feature, is that really that big a problem?
And yes, I agree that there should be a definite skill progression in this game. It's simply too different from other multiplayer fps games to NOT have a steep learning curve. No CS player is gonna be able to install and play NS and instantly be a kick-**** fade, no matter how good he was at CS. Leap-biting, bunnyhopping, blink-meta-swipe-blink-meta, wall-strafing, wiggle-walking, tracking a lerk skulk or fade, they're all a part of this game and they're all learned skills. If there was nothing in NS that required lots of practice to master....it'd get old quick.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fluffy Kitten+Sep 22 2004, 10:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fluffy Kitten @ Sep 22 2004, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dislike bunnyhopping... I just see it as an exploit of the engine that was only left in for aliens because of the whining that would of happened had it been removed completely.
I doubt when Flayra was coding NS he thought "hmm, bunnyhopping would be good for alien movement", as in earlier versions the marines could do it too. It was just a bug in the engine of the game he was building on, that 'good' players use to be faster than 'new' players. (Good and new = probably not the best word choices)
I see no reason why bunnyhopping should be left in, myself... if the idea behind it being left in was as a speed boost for skulks, why not just boost the skulks base speed instead ? Why rely on a bug in the games engine to balance your game ? Why have a 'feature' that allows new players to be outclassed by the older players, and rely entirely on outside sources to teach the new players how to use said 'feature' ?
In my opinion it needs to be removed, but also replaced with a speed boost on the skulk... and the gorge, maybe. While I'd dance happily in the streets should beta 6's changelog say "bunnyhopping removed", I'd also be thinking "wow, another alien nerf... gg devs !". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.
Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. As for the game being dead, many of the reasons have to do with these little "tricking the engine" type things that have nothing to do with the game, that improves your performance, like editing your config, people who can't time bhops so they have to use a script. Most people would like to play on a fair-ground. People want to be able to jump into a game and taking time to exploit the game engine shouldn't be an integral part of learning a game.
So before you say "it was intentionally included", well thank you, again, we know this already.
Aside from the personal attacks that i've been getting without actually stating anything that hasn't been said, or anything at ALL.
It comes down to the game shouldn't be based on learning engine exploits to become good at the game, and everyone should be playing with empty configs, just edited buttons and a few minor exceptions. There is no INTELLIGENT reason why bhop has to be in in the first place, the only reason it is still in is because it'd**** so many of you who have to have leg-ups on all the nubs would be all up and arms, slitting your wrists and shooting up schools.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who cares if it is or isn't an exploit?! If you have a problem with this, you are in the wrong forum. Go to steampowered.com, complain there. Not here. It's a HL engine issue. And since everyone can do it equally it isn't a cheat and therefore you have:
QUOTE no argument
*sigh*
"get get get get get over it! Hey!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because everyone can do something, doesnt make it not a cheat, anyone can use hacks, anyone can have exploitive scripts, and anyone can exploit the engine, which many people do all of the above, that doesn't make it legit, I know it's "ALLOWED" but it shouldn't be. How stupid can one person be? please, never post again.
Cindarian, though your post about how it's an exploit in the HL engine is correct, the game is created by Flayra. However he chooses to use the HL engine, exploits included is up to him. He makes decisions on the game based on what he wants and what he believes will benefit the game. If you really really dislike bunnyhopping, the only solution is to take it up with Flayra or maybe the devs in I&S. If you get shot down there, then there isn't anything you can do about it since you have do not have enough power or sway over how the game is shaped.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 11:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please post a demo of yourself bhopping. PLEASE?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
You claim that bunnyhopping gives "leg-ups on all the nubs". But this is the case for skill with any ability. Should we, then, remove all skill-based abilities from the game?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 01:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no INTELLIGENT reason why bhop has to be in in the first place<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, because the CREATOR of the game wants alien to be able to bhop? Flayra himself bhops, he enjoys it and think it adds a needed learning curve to aliens (from him at the cpl, he's also said something similar on these forums at least once). So, I guess that's no INTELLIGENT reason?
Btw, since you can bhop so well, how about a demo of yourself bhopping?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stone Deaf is one of the few truly invincible Warriors because nothing can shatter his impenetrable armor of non recognition. His primitive battle strategy is maddening effective; he simply refuses to acknowledge any arguments he doesn't like. Kung-Fu Master can hammer away with devastating blows, Cyber Sisters can screech in full throat and Profundus Maximus can expound until he drops, but Stone Deaf remains utterly oblivious as he advances his dogged and often repetitious attacks. In the early stages of battle a wide array of Warriors will fling themselves at Stone Deaf, but inevitably they fall back exahusted or lose interest when they see that their best weapons have no effect. His only real enemy is Admin, who has the power to eject him from the discussion forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href='http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html' target='_blank'>Read up about trolls here.</a>
As far as I'm concerned, a_civilian answered cindarian perfectly well. There is no reason he should continue to reiterate the same arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Sep 22 2004, 05:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Sep 22 2004, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your choice to use the words "good" and "new" are bang-on, since good players know how to bhop, wallstrafe, and various other NS tricks, and new players are generally clueless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the dumbest thing i´ve ever heard. So only because i don´t know how to bhop (because i don´t want to) i am not a good Player ?
Lets get on a server of your choice and then i show you how bad you are with your bhopping <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stone Deaf is one of the few truly invincible Warriors because nothing can shatter his impenetrable armor of non recognition. His primitive battle strategy is maddening effective; he simply refuses to acknowledge any arguments he doesn't like. Kung-Fu Master can hammer away with devastating blows, Cyber Sisters can screech in full throat and Profundus Maximus can expound until he drops, but Stone Deaf remains utterly oblivious as he advances his dogged and often repetitious attacks. In the early stages of battle a wide array of Warriors will fling themselves at Stone Deaf, but inevitably they fall back exahusted or lose interest when they see that their best weapons have no effect. His only real enemy is Admin, who has the power to eject him from the discussion forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow Forlorn, you're one of the biggest messes to happen to NS, and to try to justify bad things by making personal attacks and giving all the 14 year olds hard-ons. I've seen your config, you're a complete waste of time, very overrated, I can see why NS is dying, people like you.
Really, there are just too many uninformed people, and too many who want to kiss up to the people who are illigetimately good. Whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cindarian, I have some very good advice for you, listen well and carfully...
GET OUTSIDE MORE AND MAKE REAL FRIENDS NOT E-FRIENDS.
Thanks for listening <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "oink oink oink" Says the 111 post hypocritical pig.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there are just too many uninformed people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just classic, the irony of it all. Cindarian, you really need to get the story behind bhopping in NS. It may be exploitive in other games but in NS it's welcomed and embraced by Flayra the creator of the game. You should probably just stop replying to us since we all became good players by 'illegitmate' means, in other words we're all vicious hackers and cheaters huh. Its obvious that if Flayra removes bunny hopping from NS, we're all going to be owned by the lesser skilled players of NS and the clan scene will totally change, shifting to pubbers becoming uber clanners and clanners becoming atrocious pubbers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cindarian, I have some very good advice for you, listen well and carfully...
GET OUTSIDE MORE AND MAKE REAL FRIENDS NOT E-FRIENDS.
Thanks for listening <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "oink oink oink" Says the 111 post hypocritical pig. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because I don't sit here on the forums and post away all day and night does not mean I haven't read them, and I have more right to say anything about any aspect of the game because I know how the game is played, and it can be played legitimately, and how greatly it'd be played.
I have more right to say than half the people who have posted here. Of course I suppose I couldn't prove it, nor would I care to.
It comes down to the fact that most of you have to find shortcuts and ways to unfairly "progress" your skills, most of you are defending harsh scripts, which just proves what you'll do to get an unfair advantage. An ideal Natural Selection, would involve actual gameplay elements and progressing in those elements. and not finding ways to exploit the engine to become more "skilled" as you call it. I'm not here to complain to Flayra or Voogru, they only listen to the majority, and the majority are the same majority who enjoy hacking on cs, scripting in NS.
It's good to know that if I ever lose my memory, and refind natural selection, I would have to disregard the actual game, and first learn how to shoot (of course) but then i'd also have to learn to bhop, script exploitive scripts, wallstrafe and pancake, All things that arent part of the NS world, but rather artificially add "gameplay elements"
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 02:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...and I have more right to say anything about any aspect of the game because I know how the game is played, and it can be played legitimately, and how greatly it'd be played... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No facistism is allowed on these forums, please leave
Also, if you don't like scripting, go to mp_blockscripts 1, or better yet, stop playing the game completly. Please tell me a HL mod that has absolutly no scripts allowed in it
So Cindarian, are you saying if the developers find a way to remove bunny hop and scripts totally, the players who are good now will be total crap players?
Listen, it's both Legit and not unfair to bunny hop in ns. If you want to change it, make a thread in ideas(which will proberly be locked) or give flayra a pm.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Cindarian, are you saying if the developers find a way to remove bunny hop and scripts totally, the players who are good now will be total crap players? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Cindarian, are you saying if the developers find a way to remove bunny hop and scripts totally, the players who are good now will be total crap players? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Cindarian, can I play you 1v1 Combat when I get my desktop working? PLEAAAAAAAAAAAASE?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "[...] I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns."
If I make an interpretation of this line, it'd look something like:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> I am a good player, and what I say goes.
Bhop should be removed
ergo ---------------------------------------------
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're saying is (if forming it as a deductive arguement):
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> If Bhop has no place in NS, Bhop should be removed
Bhop has no place in NS
ergo ---------------------------------------------
But are the premises valid? Sorry, you have still to prove the premises. And please try to refrain "patching" it by adding an equally unproven (invalid) premise.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Cindarian, are you saying if the developers find a way to remove bunny hop and scripts totally, the players who are good now will be total crap players? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we ALL know that compedative gameplay would be better if everyone had the same skill levels
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Sep 22 2004, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Sep 22 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cindarian+Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cindarian @ Sep 22 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "[...] I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns."
If I make an interpretation of this line, it'd look something like:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> I am a good player, and what I say goes.
Bhop should be removed
ergo ---------------------------------------------
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're saying is (if forming it as a deductive arguement):
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> If Bhop has no place in NS, Bhop should be removed
Bhop has no place in NS
ergo ---------------------------------------------
But are the premises valid? Sorry, you have still to prove the premises. And please try to refrain "patching" it by adding an equally unproven (invalid) premise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you infinitely stupid were you dropped on your head?
bhopping is an exploit of the half life engine, and various scripting commands give unfair advantages, these things shouldn't have to be included into the game to suffice as actual gameplay elements, it's that simple.
wheres my rolleyes emoticon when I need it? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
No.
I blame HL physics-engine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I really hate it when a simple use of mouse-wheel can grant to any skulk free celerity and leap right from the start. Just yesterday some fellow made it with just TWO hops from the farther entrance of MS (in ns_Tanith) to the stairs of CC. Needless to say, I was pretty impressed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Your choice to use the words "good" and "new" are bang-on, since good players know how to bhop, wallstrafe, and various other NS tricks, and new players are generally clueless.
Learning how to bhop is part of getting better at the game. You should learn how to bhop if you want to play this game well because learning to bhop is expected of you. It's expected of you to learn to bhop because bhop is an intended part of the alien game. You're supposed to use it because it was left in for you to use it.
Of course, if you don't feel like learning, then by all means saddle the high horse. The world won't change for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>no</b> argument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> *sigh*
"get get get get get over it! Hey!
Those who don't know how to bhop and choose not to learn it, it's their loss. BHop isn't some super sekret skill only available to the people who are with the 'in' crowd, everyone can learn it if they take some time to ask a veteran who has the patience to help, ask a nsguide, I'm sure they'll help or even ask someone from nslearn, they've been teaching for a while now.
Should be your motto....
Flayra has already given his opinion on the subject, so......what's your argument? So it's a bug in the engine, so what? NS has managed to turn a bug into a feature, is that really that big a problem?
And yes, I agree that there should be a definite skill progression in this game. It's simply too different from other multiplayer fps games to NOT have a steep learning curve. No CS player is gonna be able to install and play NS and instantly be a kick-**** fade, no matter how good he was at CS. Leap-biting, bunnyhopping, blink-meta-swipe-blink-meta, wall-strafing, wiggle-walking, tracking a lerk skulk or fade, they're all a part of this game and they're all learned skills. If there was nothing in NS that required lots of practice to master....it'd get old quick.
I doubt when Flayra was coding NS he thought "hmm, bunnyhopping would be good for alien movement", as in earlier versions the marines could do it too. It was just a bug in the engine of the game he was building on, that 'good' players use to be faster than 'new' players. (Good and new = probably not the best word choices)
I see no reason why bunnyhopping should be left in, myself... if the idea behind it being left in was as a speed boost for skulks, why not just boost the skulks base speed instead ? Why rely on a bug in the games engine to balance your game ? Why have a 'feature' that allows new players to be outclassed by the older players, and rely entirely on outside sources to teach the new players how to use said 'feature' ?
In my opinion it needs to be removed, but also replaced with a speed boost on the skulk... and the gorge, maybe. While I'd dance happily in the streets should beta 6's changelog say "bunnyhopping removed", I'd also be thinking "wow, another alien nerf... gg devs !". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.
Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. As for the game being dead, many of the reasons have to do with these little "tricking the engine" type things that have nothing to do with the game, that improves your performance, like editing your config, people who can't time bhops so they have to use a script. Most people would like to play on a fair-ground. People want to be able to jump into a game and taking time to exploit the game engine shouldn't be an integral part of learning a game.
So before you say "it was intentionally included", well thank you, again, we know this already.
Aside from the personal attacks that i've been getting without actually stating anything that hasn't been said, or anything at ALL.
It comes down to the game shouldn't be based on learning engine exploits to become good at the game, and everyone should be playing with empty configs, just edited buttons and a few minor exceptions. There is no INTELLIGENT reason why bhop has to be in in the first place, the only reason it is still in is because it'd**** so many of you who have to have leg-ups on all the nubs would be all up and arms, slitting your wrists and shooting up schools.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who cares if it is or isn't an exploit?! If you have a problem with this, you are in the wrong forum. Go to steampowered.com, complain there. Not here. It's a HL engine issue. And since everyone can do it equally it isn't a cheat and therefore you have:
QUOTE
no argument
*sigh*
"get get get get get over it! Hey!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because everyone can do something, doesnt make it not a cheat, anyone can use hacks, anyone can have exploitive scripts, and anyone can exploit the engine, which many people do all of the above, that doesn't make it legit, I know it's "ALLOWED" but it shouldn't be.
How stupid can one person be? please, never post again.
And aliens who can do weird moves, sounds realistic enought to me.
Please post a demo of yourself bhopping. PLEASE?
Um, because the CREATOR of the game wants alien to be able to bhop? Flayra himself bhops, he enjoys it and think it adds a needed learning curve to aliens (from him at the cpl, he's also said something similar on these forums at least once). So, I guess that's no INTELLIGENT reason?
Btw, since you can bhop so well, how about a demo of yourself bhopping?
Trolling^max
<img src='http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Stone%20Deaf.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stone Deaf is one of the few truly invincible Warriors because nothing can shatter his impenetrable armor of non recognition. His primitive battle strategy is maddening effective; he simply refuses to acknowledge any arguments he doesn't like. Kung-Fu Master can hammer away with devastating blows, Cyber Sisters can screech in full throat and Profundus Maximus can expound until he drops, but Stone Deaf remains utterly oblivious as he advances his dogged and often repetitious attacks. In the early stages of battle a wide array of Warriors will fling themselves at Stone Deaf, but inevitably they fall back exahusted or lose interest when they see that their best weapons have no effect. His only real enemy is Admin, who has the power to eject him from the discussion forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href='http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html' target='_blank'>Read up about trolls here.</a>
As far as I'm concerned, a_civilian answered cindarian perfectly well. There is no reason he should continue to reiterate the same arguments.
This is the dumbest thing i´ve ever heard.
So only because i don´t know how to bhop (because i don´t want to) i am not a good Player ?
Lets get on a server of your choice and then i show you how bad you are with your bhopping <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gold.
GET OUTSIDE MORE AND MAKE REAL FRIENDS NOT E-FRIENDS.
Thanks for listening
Really, there are just too many uninformed people, and too many who want to kiss up to the people who are illigetimately good. Whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cindarian, I have some very good advice for you, listen well and carfully...
GET OUTSIDE MORE AND MAKE REAL FRIENDS NOT E-FRIENDS.
Thanks for listening <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"oink oink oink" Says the 111 post hypocritical pig.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there are just too many uninformed people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just classic, the irony of it all. Cindarian, you really need to get the story behind bhopping in NS. It may be exploitive in other games but in NS it's welcomed and embraced by Flayra the creator of the game. You should probably just stop replying to us since we all became good players by 'illegitmate' means, in other words we're all vicious hackers and cheaters huh. Its obvious that if Flayra removes bunny hopping from NS, we're all going to be owned by the lesser skilled players of NS and the clan scene will totally change, shifting to pubbers becoming uber clanners and clanners becoming atrocious pubbers.
GET OUTSIDE MORE AND MAKE REAL FRIENDS NOT E-FRIENDS.
Thanks for listening <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"oink oink oink" Says the 111 post hypocritical pig. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is 111 posts in almost 1 year bad?
I have more right to say than half the people who have posted here.
Of course I suppose I couldn't prove it, nor would I care to.
It comes down to the fact that most of you have to find shortcuts and ways to unfairly "progress" your skills, most of you are defending harsh scripts, which just proves what you'll do to get an unfair advantage. An ideal Natural Selection, would involve actual gameplay elements and progressing in those elements. and not finding ways to exploit the engine to become more "skilled" as you call it. I'm not here to complain to Flayra or Voogru, they only listen to the majority, and the majority are the same majority who enjoy hacking on cs, scripting in NS.
It's good to know that if I ever lose my memory, and refind natural selection, I would have to disregard the actual game, and first learn how to shoot (of course) but then i'd also have to learn to bhop, script exploitive scripts, wallstrafe and pancake, All things that arent part of the NS world, but rather artificially add "gameplay elements"
No facistism is allowed on these forums, please leave
Also, if you don't like scripting, go to mp_blockscripts 1, or better yet, stop playing the game completly. Please tell me a HL mod that has absolutly no scripts allowed in it
If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE.
If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cindarian, can I play you 1v1 Combat when I get my desktop working? PLEAAAAAAAAAAAASE?
Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"[...] I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns."
If I make an interpretation of this line, it'd look something like:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
I am a good player, and what I say goes.
Bhop should be removed
ergo ---------------------------------------------
Bhop should be removed
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're saying is (if forming it as a deductive arguement):
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
If Bhop has no place in NS, Bhop should be removed
Bhop has no place in NS
ergo ---------------------------------------------
Bhop should be removed
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Good, the reasoning is correct.
But are the premises valid? Sorry, you have still to prove the premises.
And please try to refrain "patching" it by adding an equally unproven (invalid) premise.
If not, then what's the big deal? What's everyone worried about?
Having every person who plays have the same level play field as someone who just started would be such an awful thing wouldn't it? It'd be horrible, people would actually be ranked as how well they play the game, as opposed to becoming skilled with the use of half-life engine flaws. Things would be TERRIBLE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we ALL know that compedative gameplay would be better if everyone had the same skill levels
Couldn't have said it better myself, bhopping shouldnt be used as a game balance, and for the three pages of stupid people restating what already was, and other people just plain not knowing what it is they are saying, i'm not a "Noob", I choose not to sit on the forums 5-6 hours at a time. I've been playing probably more than most of the people who have posted on these forums, and yes I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns. There's no reason why the game should be balanced around an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"[...] I can bhop and quite well, it's a fun little trick but it has no place in ns."
If I make an interpretation of this line, it'd look something like:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
I am a good player, and what I say goes.
Bhop should be removed
ergo ---------------------------------------------
Bhop should be removed
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes everyone, it was "intentionally included" I never doubted that, thank you for restating it about 30 times. But the fact is it has no place in NS, we don't need bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're saying is (if forming it as a deductive arguement):
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
If Bhop has no place in NS, Bhop should be removed
Bhop has no place in NS
ergo ---------------------------------------------
Bhop should be removed
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Good, the reasoning is correct.
But are the premises valid? Sorry, you have still to prove the premises.
And please try to refrain "patching" it by adding an equally unproven (invalid) premise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you infinitely stupid were you dropped on your head?
bhopping is an exploit of the half life engine, and various scripting commands give unfair advantages, these things shouldn't have to be included into the game to suffice as actual gameplay elements, it's that simple.
wheres my rolleyes emoticon when I need it? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->