Uh Oh, They Got Seige Up.
Gecko_God_Of_Dooom
Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The importance of all.</div> I need to stress this importance to aliens players espicaly. When the marines are setting up a seige, everyone should try and help untill they are dead, unless other wise told not to.
IE.
The lerk gases, the fade goes in and gets a coupel of kills, the gorges bilebomb, and the skulks run in and eather die, or take out a mine.
Keep doing this untill they die, while having one skulk go around and take out thier rez.
The fade will most likely get all the kills but dont feel descouraged you are helping. Even the lerk gassing helps prevent medspam kinda, and makes them waste alot of rez, eventualy the stocks of the marines run dry.
Even if you can only help out in the smallest way, sometimes that smallet help is the diffrence between making or breaking the seige spot.
aka the final straw the broke the camals back.
Now again, this is where I need to stress the importance of the lerk. As a Lerk you need to stay alive and just gas everything.if the fades are about to come in, gass then umbra. your nto going to get alot of kills, but the diffrence between a seige being sucessfull or not, is sometimes teh diffrance between a team having a lerk who gasses and a lerk who doesn't
IE.
The lerk gases, the fade goes in and gets a coupel of kills, the gorges bilebomb, and the skulks run in and eather die, or take out a mine.
Keep doing this untill they die, while having one skulk go around and take out thier rez.
The fade will most likely get all the kills but dont feel descouraged you are helping. Even the lerk gassing helps prevent medspam kinda, and makes them waste alot of rez, eventualy the stocks of the marines run dry.
Even if you can only help out in the smallest way, sometimes that smallet help is the diffrence between making or breaking the seige spot.
aka the final straw the broke the camals back.
Now again, this is where I need to stress the importance of the lerk. As a Lerk you need to stay alive and just gas everything.if the fades are about to come in, gass then umbra. your nto going to get alot of kills, but the diffrence between a seige being sucessfull or not, is sometimes teh diffrance between a team having a lerk who gasses and a lerk who doesn't
Comments
but I definately agree, gas is INSANELY powerful while marines are sieging and skulks with leap are also
Flaw with this is that the marines can relocate anywhere. You can't. Attack the siege.
Flaw with this is that the marines can relocate anywhere. You can't. Attack the siege. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but you're wrong...
because either they beacon -> you kill the siegespot or they dont beacon -> you kill armslab etc so the siegespot goes down.
or then you just die :P but its worth trying.
Losing a Hive is more damaging than if the Marine would lose their base, the Marines can just relocate to place X, the Kharaa have static spots.
It is good idea to attack ms because its often non-defended and rines wont bother pg cos of OMG SIEGE!!11
as tomekki said either you get their base or they lose siege via distress.
Sorry but you're wrong...
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And why's that? Do tell. I'm dying to hear why people run off and die in a suicide one fade/skulk rush on MS, or go fade and then attack an RT miles across the map. I see it happen sometimes while the rest of the team are desperately trying to stomp the marines from sieging the hive.
I always just assumed those people were idiots, they type who goes for K:D instead of team win. I've had one of those fades tell me that the RT was a better target, but funny when the game ended he was crowing about his K:D.
So cmon, enlighten us, why should a fade, probably an "educated" player, run off to MS or an RT across the map as opposed to help out his teammates by blinkswiping the marines with ease?
I'll explain my viewpoint - If aliens are STRUGGLING to hold back a siege, and they're all skulks, then the allegedly better players who've gone fade should be helping to turn the tide. Capping an RT is pointless because you're about to lose your hive. Attacking MS is a so-so idea, probably smarter if you know the comm is going to beacon, or he has no base defence, or its mid-end game and you need to remove his upgrades. However if its early game, why run off to MS? An early game hive loss is crippling, and as I've already said the marines can just relocate.
In fact even on three hives its chancy to attack MS. If they're sieging a hive and then relocate to it then you're doing without xenocide, which is arguably one of the biggest game enders. It also means your team is floating around MS while the marines are potentially en route to hive number 2 and preparing to turn it to mush.
In a pub game, a true pub, then if you consider yourself a better player its probably in your best interest to go to the marines and kill them all, because you can't rely on your teammates. If you're in a pug/scrim/clan match and you KNOW the calibre of your team then you can make an informed guess as to whether or not rush MS. The big problem is when someone can't understand the difference between the two.
So lets share the wisdom, why does a fade run off to the parts of the map that are most likely to have no form of marine resistance?
As long as there isn't a turret farm in marine start, it's highly beneficial to keep pressuring it all game. Even when there's a siege. Vs good marines a fade CANNOT BLINK IN TO SWIPE on a siege spot. If you do, you'll DIE. You need to get rid of their armor or lessen their numbers to make a move. If you're playing against awful pub marines all day you can do whatever you want to break a siege but when you play against good players you need to hit MS (at least if you don't have 2 hives). Relocating is not an option for marines... marines w/o Armor1 are FODDER, they WILL die before they can relocate.
The point is that even letting them get a PG up near your hive can mean the game is over... the key is scouting to kill the 2-3 marines putting it up before it's up.
With 2 hives, he shouldn't die. Just blink out, metabolize, and blink back in. You put the commander in a position where he has to decide whether to beacon and possibly lose the siege spot, or not beacon and lose upgrades/advanced armory.
Hitting base is essential at that point..
-Aes-
2) Marines are not very attached to MS. There is no strategic value to its location. All that keeps them there is that it's a convenient place to build stuff. It's actually better to have the marines spawn in MS and have to phase in one-by-one than force them to relocate to a hive. Do not destroy their entire base, as it will cause more problems than it solves. edit: obviously you can destroy it when it's all that's left, but save it for last.
3) If you can force the marines to beacon, well, there goes 15 res. Or if you can kill the obs or arms lab, even better. Chances are, however, that if you attack MS they'll just phase back and chase you off quickly. If it's half-assed, then you've wasted your time (or worse, fed them rfk). If you actually organize it, getting the marines to come back to base (either with a coordinated skulk rush, or go in with a fade or onos) then you might take advantage and get the phase gate down in the siege base. It's pretty hard to do if the marines are competant, but it's better than a suicide rush.
4) Some places are downright dumb to attack as an onos. Biodome hive in ns_origin is a good example. It's very unlikely that you'll survive going down the elevator and trying to do any damage. If you can't hit somewhere in particular, then hit <i>something</i>. Kill some rts. Whatever.
Suicide rushing some marines is <i>bad</i>. You cost yourself res, and give them res. If you're not going to do enough damage to be worth it, then do something else.
I don't attack heavily manned siege points because all I play is an unupgraded skulk the entire game. I take out RTs so they can't build as fast, I hit MS so they are forced to divide their attention + spawncamping is easy since marines use infantry portals and the timing is always the same, I go around and get ready to jump them from behind the next time there is a rush at them, if I'm busy as a gorge nearby, I heal and bilebomb like a madman. Whatever. What I don't do is scream the noob warcry of DURRRRR!!!! and run at them and get shot and give them 1-3 res.
Siege points are also usually easy for marines to defend until lerks come along. Tram tunnel VS Feedwater hive in Bast is a perfect example. Big long tunnel, and the marines can siege from right in the middle of it. Onos can't attack, fades can't attack, skulks can't attack, gorges get chased and killed.
If you want to prevent sieges, put an OC or two in the position the sieges have to be, and make sure your team has a lerk who isn't completely retarted. Spore is really really nasty against sieging marines, since they have to stand around defending the TF, as well as stand around and build the sieges. Once they have no armor, one bite and three parasites is enough.
Run like hell, don't always use MCs, travel as much as possible.
If I play on servers with stats enabled I usually get the staff for most traveled meters. As kharaa AND rine.
SCOUT. Its that easy, find out, send info through and cover.
also, a preemptive strike against thie obs does wonders. it gets rid of thier 100 energy obs.
If you have a fade to spare, you can sometimes have em take out the advanced armory.
if you get the marine to to relocate, they need most of their team there building. You have the oppurtunity to take half of their RT's down, to increase your hive defense, and get a few more higher lifeforms up. Relocating is costly and time consuming business for a marine team, and it makes them defensive. If you can take the phase down from MS, the marines now cannot reinforce quickly, and a war of attrition will generally lead to the marines being routed from that siege point.
What I see all too many times is that players will avoid the marines trying to build the siege, and run off and do something totally pointless. And yes I have seen games where the fade was the last player alive because he hid at an RT while every other player tried to stop a siege going up.
We try to coerce him back to the ruck, because he could tip the balance our way... but he insists on hugging his rt. Team loses, he crows about his K:D being ok for a loss. I find that rather unconstructive.
In that situation, the only teamwork I see is the skulks who are trying to save the hive from a bunch of marines. I see one asshat whose interest doesn't extend past the scoreboard, or believes that teamwork means "you skulks get destroyed while I do whatever I like elsewhere".
Second, noone has said its not beneficial to attack MS, but you'd have to be totally insane to rush MS if your team are screaming for help at the seige-in-progress. If the marines can get the siege up then any damage to MS becomes largely irrelevant as the marines can simply relocate and stomp the hive.
Anyone with a bit of wit needs to learn to gauge how effective the rest of the team are at doing their jobs. Running off to MS, because you "assume" everyone else can cope with the marines, is foolhardy. If the team are struggling with preventing the seige, then its a situation where every asset available has to be thrown at the siege. If they can't stop the siege going up, then they wont stop a CC and IPs going up, and once that happens it makes whoever is attacking MS a very silly boy.
I am looking at the topic from the angle of "they are getting seiges up"... because all too often noone will actually try to stop the siege going up. Its not helped when the allegedly better players (early fades are either good, or hoarders, there's not much of a middle ground) are continuing a pointless crusade when the hive is about to get deep fried.
I think its a touch insane to say "rush MS if you've only one hive and its being sieged" because if your team can't stop a siege going up then they're sure as hell not going to stop the marines rolling into that one hive and rubbing it out. You'll end up with a few players in MS suddenly wondering what the ping noise is, and why their health is dropping.
Its all about understanding the situation, if your team is getting stuffed then you have to put aside the conventional strat and instead rush to help them. Doing your own thing while assuming they can hold their own (when you've no evidence for that judgement, and overwhelming evidence against) is poor teamplay and points to lack of any tactical knowledge.
The rush M start is commen on the server I play on, and a real tactic. but, we have won games because our fade kept harasing them at M start, and after the 3 becon of trying to save base, they ran out of rez, and sold everything. PLus the marines becon, that means there no longer at the seige spot leaving it completely open.
My grudge is against people who should really know better <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just on the specific example: Does tram still have that vent in the roof, midway along it? I haven't played the new version of bast much, but that used to be an excellent way to dislodge a base (via bilebomb, or even dropping OCs into their base).
And even a single OC is an excellent warning device. Rambos will run past it, but you can't siege from that spot by running away.
first if its a 2 hive lerk they can UMBRA which is an invaluable skill. try to put the umbra where you want the fade to go, like near the phase gate or tf and he will go there and be protected.
spore takes down their armor, so even if the com is med spamming the fade can get an easy 2 hit ko if their armor is gone.
also if its a lerk in a vent the marines attention is sometimes half drawn to the lerk, or even some people waiting for the lerk to peak out. you can really help the skulks out by keeping the marines looking up at you.
never let marines in the hive to sight it.
Gorges needed if they have bile. -- If they dont then buid something usefull or go back skulk dont just sit somewhere.
Fades CAN either attack the siege or the ms depending on the situation. -- Hitting their main IS beneficial assuming two things. Either A: you have a second hive, or B: they dont have the sieges up YET. They are just upgrading them.
From attacking ms a few outcomes can happen.
1: Draw players back so your team can capture the siege.
2: Relocation with whatever rsr's they have left and they are unable to bulid the sieges (the tf was upping) or they build the sieges without armor 1 (They should lose).
3: They take the hive but your 2nd builds and its a new game except you already have higher lifeforms to protect expansion. (Arguable that aliens have a disadvantage till mid-game) This way you start basically over but in a mid-game scenerio.
If you've got two fades then you're going to want one to hold the siege and one to hit base. A fade near base is a real issue and is going to lead to a number of things:
- A beacon. All marines in marine spawn, this gives you valuable time if you're co ordinated to rush the PG and just kill anything that comes through
- A dead arms lab, lvl 0 marines are very easily picked off by fades and it's an extra 25 res to spend which if you're hitting their rts they won't have.
- A few marines constantly in base, probably with hmgs or shotguns which could otherwise be deployed at the siege. The comm might also spend valuable res on base defense.
- A dead obs, hitting the obs and removing all energy is a VERY annoying thing and depending on the siege location can be deadly. If you've got no line of sight then you've got a massive delay on killing the hive
Don't let the actions of a few idiot pub fades cloud you on this, necrosis. It's a very, very effective tactic and one which you'll see most clans if possible using.
I've done the baserape myself because its been nearer than the sieged hive, so I understand its effectiveness. I've also spoken in other threads about the value of the baserape.... but at the same time camping an RT across the map in order to save your K:D ratio is pretty sad.
I also have to say I stick by my original point that if your team are struggling to stop a siege then you need to consider how best you apply yourself. While rushing MS might put you in a longterm better position, if the marines can squash your team at the siege then your work at base will have been largely wasted.
I'm just wary of people who skimread this thread and then think "woo, siege, I better run all the way across the map to the hive while the worst skulks in the world run around like headless chickens at the siege". Baserapes can be good but all things need to be taken into consideration.
If they are up, saying "DONT LET EM GET UP" won't help...
Anyway, the PG will usually be hardest to take down, since it isn't bulky to hide from shots. Sieges take a bit too long to take down. TF in the other hand IS the target you should be aiming for. It's pretty weak, it is bulky for cover and finally, once it's down, the com has to upgrade it AGAIN for the sieges meaning you cost them 25 res again.
If theres a gorge biling in the vents, try and parasite structures to give the gorge "wallhax".
Always have someone near the hive ALWAYS. In many games where there was NO alien at a hive, they did a ninja siege and that hive went pop.
As an onos, STOMP. If you rush in there when they have hmgs, you'll get slaughtered.
But again, if they have heavies... that makes it so much harder. Especially with 1 hive.
That's like saying the best way to stay alive is not get shot...
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Flawless logic that easily the bulk of players forget. Its kind of hard to die if the other guy can't shoot you.
Its get funnier if you extend the analogy further - if someone started a thread about standing stock still in front of an HMG rine and wondering why he keeps dying, we'd all collectively laugh at the noob and say "try dodging".
Funny how the same advice applied to sieges is considered by some to be unhelpful.
I'd say I'm above average in skill level (I'll let you be the real judge of that) and typically when there is a siege situation I just keep rushing in (as skulk). Now I view this tactic in two ways
1.) I just keep giving them res everytime I die
2.) The war of attrition... I assist in slowly wearing them down.
However, it seems that view #2 only holds true if there are other skulks assisting in wearing the rine force down. And view #1 hold true if I'm one of a few (or the only). If I am one of a few (or the only) should I still be running in... in hopes of luring teammates?
You will typically see me with probably the highest death count because I strongly believe in the idea of causing attrition, just constantly pounding on them. But is it to no avail, if other teammates don't help? Or should I be more conservative... trying to save my life, prevent 2 res for rines, and allow them to take more of the map?
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