Aliens are suppose to be hit and run class. This is not like Halo where you have large outdoor battles between aliens and marines and they all using long/mid range weapons. AvP takes place ususally in a spaceship where gurilla tactics are required for the aliens.
I agree entirely with the logic behind the original post here. Given the circumstances mentioned, yes, the Kharaa are indeed overly hit & run.
Of course, given the same logic, so are marines.
Let's look at the facts, shall we?
Basic marine - fairly low HP, can't hold up to long-term battles. In general, they can just do a bit of damage before they need to retreat, either to rearm or simply avoid getting over-run.
HA - High HP, but also slow. It only takes a couple of fades or a few decent skulks to rip a HA to shreds, and they're too slow to retreat unless they start going straight after firing a few shots. These generally use the peek-around-the-corner tactic; pop their head around, fire a couple grenades or a HMG clip, then get out of the way before the massive counter-attack comes. If they stick around while an Onos is there they'll simply get devoured.
Jet-Packs - The epitome of hit and run. They fly into an area, pop off a few shots, and leaving before they're jet juice runs dry, because if that happens, they're going to drop into the middle of their foes. Even 2 skulks can fairly easily take out a grounded JP.
The moral of the story? If you take a single unit, and compare them against a team of the opposition, of COURSE you're going to conclude they need hit and run tactics. If you bother to take them as a part of a team, however, the reality is a lot different. That is the core mistake in the original post.
<!--QuoteBegin-Evo+Oct 14 2004, 09:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Evo @ Oct 14 2004, 09:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the problems with "teamwork" as many people are suggesting are the maps themselves. Onos rushes in, rest of team goes to follow, Onos gets hammered and starts to retreat, aliens all get jammed up in a 6 foot by 6 foot doorway, rines with HMGs and GLs wipe out half of alien team. Onos goes "OMG U $&*#(@ING @&*#(*&ERS U #$&*(IN BLOCKED ME!!", team goes "We trying to help", rines go "LOLOLOLOLOL GG NUBS"
Pretty soon, people get discouraged from trying to coordinate with higher lifeforms and you get the non-teamwork, one-at-a-time-wait-your-freaking-turn, OMG-aliens-are-weak style assaults.
Guerilla warfare works because of three things: Mobility, obscurity, and flexibility. The Kharra have <i>none</i> of those over the marines.
Mobility: Jetpacks and (especially) phasegates trump MCs and blink. And don't forget b(e)acon to defend the base or, even worse, rush through a PG. Also, because even the most powerful marine (HA/HMG) is relatively small, its very easy for the rine team to concentrate its firepower in a precise area. Four Onos could never hope to operate in the same terrain as four HA's. Hell, even TWO Onos have trouble working together in a lot of maps. Yet we see heavy trains of 6+ every day on the marine side of things. And the other aliens rely too much on their speed to truely gel as a fighting force for long. So even what the aliens have in mobility is hampered by the fact that their fastest units can't co-operate with the same efficiency as a marine squad can.
Obscurity: Obs (MT/scan) effectively counters any battlefield stealth by the aliens. Plus, the aliens only possible bases are already known before the map even begins, whereas marines can relocate at will. This is a huge no-no in guerilla tactics. If a superior force knows the exact locations of your operations, you're screwwed. Yet marines are free to relocate to anywhere they please. Couple this with their ability to remain fairly stealthy, and the fact that an effective fighting force (1-2 marines) is also an effective construction force, enables the marine team to perform covert operations with huge consequences (ala PG rush). Aliens can't even hope to match that kind of power and effectiveness in their stealth. At best its used for picking off stray targets that, if they followed proper marine tactics, shouldn't even be away and alone in the first place. Alien 'stealth' is next to worthless when it comes to countering important marine assets (squads and bases).
Flexibility: Basically what this whole topic was started about. The Kharra are a dedicated fighting force comprised solely of fast moving melee fighters, with a few odd ranged and special abilities thrown in. Not exactly what i'd call 'flexible'. Marines, on the other hand ARE fairly flexible. Their weapons are all general purpose (unlike spores, bilebomb, etc). Any marine is capable of operating any weapon or tool, so a single loss to a group is of little consequence. If an alien "squad" looses its lerk (for example), its fighting effectiveness and tactical flexibility is greatly reduced because no one can fill that role other than another lerk. Any marine can do any thing, whereas the Kharra literally require every piece to be in its place to acheive a major objective. And since marines have a commander (dictator), group decisions are faster and easier to make than in an alien 'democracy'. Hence you get slow reaction times of a usually disorganized fighting force - whereas a marine comm can just bacon, drop some shotties, yell "PG now", and blitz a target of his choosing.
Unfortunatly it seems that most of these elements are heavilly ingrained into the game by now. Changing them would be arduous and risky. It's probably better to just recognize the limitations of each side, background fiction be damned, and try to improve on what you have instead of what you wish you had.
But hey, thats just me. I don't make the game, I just play it every once in a while.
Droppin my $0.02
-Evo (I really wish I woulda picked a less obvious name for this game...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had to Quote this because this is one of the most intellegent Posts i´ve ever read here. I cant believe that nobody really noticed it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and The Idea of Lowering the Damage and HP of all aliens is a little bit weird because all you want is a little more HP for the Onos. So dont nerf all when you can buff one. Where is the difference in buffing the onos with HP in the same scale as you would do with all the nerfs. Another good Idea would be that the LMG/Pistol Damage to an Onos is lowered like the Damage of Turrets. So you are forced to buy HMG´s / Shotties to Kill an Onos which i think makes much Sense.
And I think that Lerk Spikes should return. I dont see that they are unfair. Heh man it took you 5 mins to take a PG down with Spikes why is this unfair ?? You can have a Cup of Tea before countering the annoying Lerk <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-slayer111+Oct 15 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (slayer111 @ Oct 15 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree entirely with the logic behind the original post here. Given the circumstances mentioned, yes, the Kharaa are indeed overly hit & run.
Of course, given the same logic, so are marines.
Let's look at the facts, shall we?
Basic marine - fairly low HP, can't hold up to long-term battles. In general, they can just do a bit of damage before they need to retreat, either to rearm or simply avoid getting over-run.
HA - High HP, but also slow. It only takes a couple of fades or a few decent skulks to rip a HA to shreds, and they're too slow to retreat unless they start going straight after firing a few shots. These generally use the peek-around-the-corner tactic; pop their head around, fire a couple grenades or a HMG clip, then get out of the way before the massive counter-attack comes. If they stick around while an Onos is there they'll simply get devoured.
Jet-Packs - The epitome of hit and run. They fly into an area, pop off a few shots, and leaving before they're jet juice runs dry, because if that happens, they're going to drop into the middle of their foes. Even 2 skulks can fairly easily take out a grounded JP.
The moral of the story? If you take a single unit, and compare them against a team of the opposition, of COURSE you're going to conclude they need hit and run tactics. If you bother to take them as a part of a team, however, the reality is a lot different. That is the core mistake in the original post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a problem however, and it has been very nicely described in previous post(s). It's simply the fact that aliens don't work good together even if they want. When it comes to competative play FF will be on, melee units hit each other, bite each other and come in each other's way. Why ranged units don't do the same can be easily explained. They can stand around a target with a larger radius, thus letting more people to shoot without interfering with each other.
You can in rare cases have two onos attacking at the same time, but most of the time if two onos attacks at the same time they're going to block each other's escape routes. Not to mention in many cases where you've an onos stomping from the rear his fat **** will block your escape route no matter what unit you are.
Fades are farely good, but who hasn't experienced the blocking when attempting to escape? And I'm talking about accident blockings.
Lerks shouldn't go melee so they don't suffer that much.
Skulks together intefere with each other's bunnyhop a LOT, and since they're so fast they ARE going to bite each other when more than one skulk attack the same target.
Gorges, well, not like spit is going to win your day, but BB is a great ability if they can access it.
Bottem line is that it seems like unit wise it isn't scaling up right. Multiple marines are much stronger than multiple aliens and this is without counting in the res-flow system.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 14 2004, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 14 2004, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem about "unbalance" right now. People think the game is unbalanced when they aren't in the proper position to judge it. The game <b>requires</b> teamwork to be balanced, if you have a team of all solo heroic aliens, of course the game is going to be unbalanced. If the Onos is being shot by the entire team of 4-5 lmg marines, where are the skulks, fades, lerk? They should be supporting the Onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raistlin666+Oct 15 2004, 10:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raistlin666 @ Oct 15 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I think that Lerk Spikes should return. I dont see that they are unfair. Heh man it took you 5 mins to take a PG down with Spikes why is this unfair ?? You can have a Cup of Tea before countering the annoying Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not unfair to the marines, in fact it's a bonus to the marines. However, it is <b>very</b> unfair to the alien team. A good alien team that has smart players will never use lerk spike to take down structures. But on public servers, I hate to say it but there are a lot of 'dumb' players who sit in a vent and shoot spikes for 5 minutes when the team really needs the lerk to help gas/umbra whatever elsewhere. It totally screws the alien team and totally eliminates the focus on teamplay.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Please take note!</span></span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not sure how much I can say because this is pt forum stuff... :\ Wait till next build before complaining about balance. Things will change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was looking for.
To the original poster, melee is the point of the alien team. Is anyone here arguing about the "redundancy" of the marine guns? Nope, because they're guns, they have range, that is their point. The same logic applies to aliens and melee, with a few exceptions that support the rule.
Hit and run makes sense for the Kharaa team. The main problem is that they cannot hit/run effectively once marines get MT. Also, the skulk class has a significant disadvantage if he's up against a marine that can aim, and since skulk is the default class...well, you see the picture.
I don't feel like quoting everyone who replied to my post, so here's just a general reply: First of all, it is way more likely for there to be a group of marines roving the map than a group of aliens. Each alien has different movement capabilities, while barring jps marines all move at roughly the same speed, and thus they stay in groups. Therefore it is NOT such a strange occurence for an onos to run into 4, 5, or 6 marines out of 6-9 marines. Secondly, note: <!--QuoteBegin-me+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4+ [lmgs]makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NGE said that lmgs are not even a threat to onos. 4+ lvl3 lmgs are a HUGE deterrant for an onos; most chokepoints in ns maps can be completely controlled by lmgs, at least against onoses. Fades, however, can get in and get out quick enough to be okay, which is ironic considering the costs of each lifeform, but whatever. Smart onos or not, the fact of the matter is that, even if the lmgs don't kill him because the onos knows to stay away, the onos is still threatened by those lmgs. A smart onos won't get killed, but he won't kick the marines out of there either. And I SAID <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 15 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 15 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that a squad of fully upgraded lmgs will put an Onos in its place. It should be. Teamwork should always beat down a solo-whatever, that's the balance of the game, making sure nothing in the game is super overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 15 2004, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 15 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 15 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 15 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that a squad of fully upgraded lmgs will put an Onos in its place. It should be. Teamwork should always beat down a solo-whatever, that's the balance of the game, making sure nothing in the game is super overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know. Onos on its own gets raped and all that, blah blah blah teamwork is good blah blah pubs have no teamwork blah blah. I was just responding to "lmgs can't hurt an onos", then everyone has to blow it into "Well you're a retarded onos then." The situation wasn't a team of lmgs vs. a team of an onos and a bunch of other aliens, the situation was a team of lmgs vs an onos. In which case the onos would either run or die most likely.
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Oct 13 2004, 05:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 13 2004, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hate how NS has lost RTS and epicness in favor of yet another fast Team DM style game. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if you actually played in an alien half of a competetive scrim or match, you'd understand that ns isn't close to a fast team dm game...
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 15 2004, 01:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 15 2004, 01:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't feel like quoting everyone who replied to my post, so here's just a general reply: First of all, it is way more likely for there to be a group of marines roving the map than a group of aliens. Each alien has different movement capabilities, while barring jps marines all move at roughly the same speed, and thus they stay in groups. Therefore it is NOT such a strange occurence for an onos to run into 4, 5, or 6 marines out of 6-9 marines. Secondly, note: <!--QuoteBegin-me+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4+ [lmgs]makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NGE said that lmgs are not even a threat to onos. 4+ lvl3 lmgs are a HUGE deterrant for an onos; most chokepoints in ns maps can be completely controlled by lmgs, at least against onoses. Fades, however, can get in and get out quick enough to be okay, which is ironic considering the costs of each lifeform, but whatever. Smart onos or not, the fact of the matter is that, even if the lmgs don't kill him because the onos knows to stay away, the onos is still threatened by those lmgs. A smart onos won't get killed, but he won't kick the marines out of there either. And I SAID <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's like saying one HA can't be killed by 4 skulks. If the HA has a shotty or HMG, he could win but it depends.
Anyhow the point is sure, an onos couldn't charge 4 LMG's down a huge hallway perhaps, but the LMG's could sure as hell not charge the onos around a courner either and expect to live.
Besides, the ability to an onos is to break bases. It kills structures really fast and does a good job at this.
The onos is a classic example of HP over skill type thing that exists in all RTS games. You always have the unit which takes a beating and doesn't beat the oppionent through good micromanagement, but rather through pure stats.
That's what the onos is. It's not a problem but if you don't like it tough.
The fade on the other hand is a skill type unit, one that's more effective than an onos (which is good) but can only be countered by skill. A good fade can kick the crap out of marines for a long time. However fades are also the worse base breakers because they kill structures the slowest.
Anyhow I think all of the classes are unique and serve a role, hardly redudant and fit nicely into the game. This is coming from a huge critic.
I'd like to see the onos stay exactly like it is with a little bit smaller hull and hitboxes, just so it takes less to get it stuck. Plus onos do die fairly easy at present.
While it's certainly nice to see the conversation going here, it seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point of my original post.
I wasn't complaining of balance, or how alien-X needs buffing because of Y-marine whatever, or, which seems to have been the focus for about the last 3 pages, how the onos needs a change (It does, but that's not what the original post was about)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the original poster, melee is the point of the alien team. Is anyone here arguing about the "redundancy" of the marine guns? Nope, because they're guns, they have range, that is their point. The same logic applies to aliens and melee, with a few exceptions that support the rule.
Hit and run makes sense for the Kharaa team. The main problem is that they cannot hit/run effectively once marines get MT. Also, the skulk class has a significant disadvantage if he's up against a marine that can aim, and since skulk is the default class...well, you see the picture. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This caught my eye. Well at least the first part.
You can complain about redundancy in marine guns because they aren't redundant. They all fill a specific role, hence their only being 4 of them.
LMG: General Purpose Shotgun: Early game, close range, anti-structure/anti-personnel HMG: Mid/Late game, Medium Range, Anti-personnel GL: Mid/Late game, Medium/Long range anti-structure
The aliens, to me at least, all feel like they fill the exact same role of a hit&run unit. Which was the original point of everything, the aliens have a desperate lack of distinction between themselves, 2 mediocre support units, and 3 mediocre combat units do not mold together make a strong team.
I mean...shoot, all the races are nearly useless in the larger picture by themselves, but at the same time, as XCan has pointed out, have extreme difficulty working together. In a FF server it becomes dangerous in CQ, in non-FF it just becomes chaos with the larger units becoming blocked and the majority dieing hand-in-hand with marines, the only difference is that the marines can respawn and come back, pick up their guns and are almost at their same fighting capacity, while the aliens are now mostly skulks up against HMGs and shotguns. And here I am straying off my own path. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bottom line is: The alien team still has no real distinction amongst itselves as far as playing styles go. One thing that I have thought of however, which would be fairly simple, is just re-arrange the aliens abilities, give them specific roles instead of making them a cheap-imitation swiss army knife, re-arrange their abilties, dump some and add in new. Make the individual alien a specialist that would go together with their teammates, instead of our current situation of a poor-man's jack of all trades trying, and half-forced, to go solo, playing exactly same through out the game.
exactly! in 1.04 the aliens all felt DIFFERNET not just to play but to fight against as a mairne.
Now its really boring fighting aliens as none of them have ANY ranged weapons that actually matter, so shotguns defeat all of them. Whereas in 1.04 shotguns would own skulks, but lerks and fades would kill you easily unless you ambushed them round a corner.
It should go back to aliens being melee and long range, and marines having the medium-close range weapons.
At the moment aliens only have melee and it makes it less fun to play as a marine against.
I miss hiding from the spiking lerk behind a box with a shotgun, and calling for LMG backup to take him out, or sneaking up behind a fade and shotgunning him in the back. Now you just stand still and let the fade come to you before you fire...its so much more boring. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
now 1.04 had a lot of things wrong with it (mainly jetpacks and hitboxes) but it had much more variety in gameplay.
Comments
Of course, given the same logic, so are marines.
Let's look at the facts, shall we?
Basic marine - fairly low HP, can't hold up to long-term battles. In general, they can just do a bit of damage before they need to retreat, either to rearm or simply avoid getting over-run.
HA - High HP, but also slow. It only takes a couple of fades or a few decent skulks to rip a HA to shreds, and they're too slow to retreat unless they start going straight after firing a few shots. These generally use the peek-around-the-corner tactic; pop their head around, fire a couple grenades or a HMG clip, then get out of the way before the massive counter-attack comes. If they stick around while an Onos is there they'll simply get devoured.
Jet-Packs - The epitome of hit and run. They fly into an area, pop off a few shots, and leaving before they're jet juice runs dry, because if that happens, they're going to drop into the middle of their foes. Even 2 skulks can fairly easily take out a grounded JP.
The moral of the story? If you take a single unit, and compare them against a team of the opposition, of COURSE you're going to conclude they need hit and run tactics. If you bother to take them as a part of a team, however, the reality is a lot different. That is the core mistake in the original post.
Pretty soon, people get discouraged from trying to coordinate with higher lifeforms and you get the non-teamwork, one-at-a-time-wait-your-freaking-turn, OMG-aliens-are-weak style assaults.
Guerilla warfare works because of three things: Mobility, obscurity, and flexibility. The Kharra have <i>none</i> of those over the marines.
Mobility: Jetpacks and (especially) phasegates trump MCs and blink. And don't forget b(e)acon to defend the base or, even worse, rush through a PG. Also, because even the most powerful marine (HA/HMG) is relatively small, its very easy for the rine team to concentrate its firepower in a precise area. Four Onos could never hope to operate in the same terrain as four HA's. Hell, even TWO Onos have trouble working together in a lot of maps. Yet we see heavy trains of 6+ every day on the marine side of things. And the other aliens rely too much on their speed to truely gel as a fighting force for long. So even what the aliens have in mobility is hampered by the fact that their fastest units can't co-operate with the same efficiency as a marine squad can.
Obscurity: Obs (MT/scan) effectively counters any battlefield stealth by the aliens. Plus, the aliens only possible bases are already known before the map even begins, whereas marines can relocate at will. This is a huge no-no in guerilla tactics. If a superior force knows the exact locations of your operations, you're screwwed. Yet marines are free to relocate to anywhere they please. Couple this with their ability to remain fairly stealthy, and the fact that an effective fighting force (1-2 marines) is also an effective construction force, enables the marine team to perform covert operations with huge consequences (ala PG rush). Aliens can't even hope to match that kind of power and effectiveness in their stealth. At best its used for picking off stray targets that, if they followed proper marine tactics, shouldn't even be away and alone in the first place. Alien 'stealth' is next to worthless when it comes to countering important marine assets (squads and bases).
Flexibility: Basically what this whole topic was started about. The Kharra are a dedicated fighting force comprised solely of fast moving melee fighters, with a few odd ranged and special abilities thrown in. Not exactly what i'd call 'flexible'. Marines, on the other hand ARE fairly flexible. Their weapons are all general purpose (unlike spores, bilebomb, etc). Any marine is capable of operating any weapon or tool, so a single loss to a group is of little consequence. If an alien "squad" looses its lerk (for example), its fighting effectiveness and tactical flexibility is greatly reduced because no one can fill that role other than another lerk. Any marine can do any thing, whereas the Kharra literally require every piece to be in its place to acheive a major objective. And since marines have a commander (dictator), group decisions are faster and easier to make than in an alien 'democracy'. Hence you get slow reaction times of a usually disorganized fighting force - whereas a marine comm can just bacon, drop some shotties, yell "PG now", and blitz a target of his choosing.
Unfortunatly it seems that most of these elements are heavilly ingrained into the game by now. Changing them would be arduous and risky. It's probably better to just recognize the limitations of each side, background fiction be damned, and try to
improve on what you have instead of what you wish you had.
But hey, thats just me. I don't make the game, I just play it every once in a while.
Droppin my $0.02
-Evo (I really wish I woulda picked a less obvious name for this game...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had to Quote this because this is one of the most intellegent Posts i´ve ever read here. I cant believe that nobody really noticed it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and The Idea of Lowering the Damage and HP of all aliens is a little bit weird because all you want is a little more HP for the Onos. So dont nerf all when you can buff one. Where is the difference in buffing the onos with HP in the same scale as you would do with all the nerfs. Another good Idea would be that the LMG/Pistol Damage to an Onos is lowered like the Damage of Turrets. So you are forced to buy HMG´s / Shotties to Kill an Onos which i think makes much Sense.
And I think that Lerk Spikes should return. I dont see that they are unfair. Heh man it took you 5 mins to take a PG down with Spikes why is this unfair ?? You can have a Cup of Tea before countering the annoying Lerk <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Of course, given the same logic, so are marines.
Let's look at the facts, shall we?
Basic marine - fairly low HP, can't hold up to long-term battles. In general, they can just do a bit of damage before they need to retreat, either to rearm or simply avoid getting over-run.
HA - High HP, but also slow. It only takes a couple of fades or a few decent skulks to rip a HA to shreds, and they're too slow to retreat unless they start going straight after firing a few shots. These generally use the peek-around-the-corner tactic; pop their head around, fire a couple grenades or a HMG clip, then get out of the way before the massive counter-attack comes. If they stick around while an Onos is there they'll simply get devoured.
Jet-Packs - The epitome of hit and run. They fly into an area, pop off a few shots, and leaving before they're jet juice runs dry, because if that happens, they're going to drop into the middle of their foes. Even 2 skulks can fairly easily take out a grounded JP.
The moral of the story? If you take a single unit, and compare them against a team of the opposition, of COURSE you're going to conclude they need hit and run tactics. If you bother to take them as a part of a team, however, the reality is a lot different. That is the core mistake in the original post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a problem however, and it has been very nicely described in previous post(s). It's simply the fact that aliens don't work good together even if they want. When it comes to competative play FF will be on, melee units hit each other, bite each other and come in each other's way. Why ranged units don't do the same can be easily explained. They can stand around a target with a larger radius, thus letting more people to shoot without interfering with each other.
You can in rare cases have two onos attacking at the same time, but most of the time if two onos attacks at the same time they're going to block each other's escape routes. Not to mention in many cases where you've an onos stomping from the rear his fat **** will block your escape route no matter what unit you are.
Fades are farely good, but who hasn't experienced the blocking when attempting to escape? And I'm talking about accident blockings.
Lerks shouldn't go melee so they don't suffer that much.
Skulks together intefere with each other's bunnyhop a LOT, and since they're so fast they ARE going to bite each other when more than one skulk attack the same target.
Gorges, well, not like spit is going to win your day, but BB is a great ability if they can access it.
Bottem line is that it seems like unit wise it isn't scaling up right. Multiple marines are much stronger than multiple aliens and this is without counting in the res-flow system.
Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem about "unbalance" right now. People think the game is unbalanced when they aren't in the proper position to judge it. The game <b>requires</b> teamwork to be balanced, if you have a team of all solo heroic aliens, of course the game is going to be unbalanced. If the Onos is being shot by the entire team of 4-5 lmg marines, where are the skulks, fades, lerk? They should be supporting the Onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raistlin666+Oct 15 2004, 10:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raistlin666 @ Oct 15 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I think that Lerk Spikes should return. I dont see that they are unfair. Heh man it took you 5 mins to take a PG down with Spikes why is this unfair ?? You can have a Cup of Tea before countering the annoying Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not unfair to the marines, in fact it's a bonus to the marines. However, it is <b>very</b> unfair to the alien team. A good alien team that has smart players will never use lerk spike to take down structures. But on public servers, I hate to say it but there are a lot of 'dumb' players who sit in a vent and shoot spikes for 5 minutes when the team really needs the lerk to help gas/umbra whatever elsewhere. It totally screws the alien team and totally eliminates the focus on teamplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not sure how much I can say because this is pt forum stuff... :\ Wait till next build before complaining about balance. Things will change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was looking for.
To the original poster, melee is the point of the alien team. Is anyone here arguing about the "redundancy" of the marine guns? Nope, because they're guns, they have range, that is their point. The same logic applies to aliens and melee, with a few exceptions that support the rule.
Hit and run makes sense for the Kharaa team. The main problem is that they cannot hit/run effectively once marines get MT. Also, the skulk class has a significant disadvantage if he's up against a marine that can aim, and since skulk is the default class...well, you see the picture.
First of all, it is way more likely for there to be a group of marines roving the map than a group of aliens. Each alien has different movement capabilities, while barring jps marines all move at roughly the same speed, and thus they stay in groups. Therefore it is NOT such a strange occurence for an onos to run into 4, 5, or 6 marines out of 6-9 marines.
Secondly, note:
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4+ [lmgs]makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NGE said that lmgs are not even a threat to onos. 4+ lvl3 lmgs are a HUGE deterrant for an onos; most chokepoints in ns maps can be completely controlled by lmgs, at least against onoses. Fades, however, can get in and get out quick enough to be okay, which is ironic considering the costs of each lifeform, but whatever. Smart onos or not, the fact of the matter is that, even if the lmgs don't kill him because the onos knows to stay away, the onos is still threatened by those lmgs. A smart onos won't get killed, but he won't kick the marines out of there either.
And I SAID <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree that a squad of fully upgraded lmgs will put an Onos in its place. It should be. Teamwork should always beat down a solo-whatever, that's the balance of the game, making sure nothing in the game is super overpowered.
I agree that a squad of fully upgraded lmgs will put an Onos in its place. It should be. Teamwork should always beat down a solo-whatever, that's the balance of the game, making sure nothing in the game is super overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. Onos on its own gets raped and all that, blah blah blah teamwork is good blah blah pubs have no teamwork blah blah. I was just responding to "lmgs can't hurt an onos", then everyone has to blow it into "Well you're a retarded onos then." The situation wasn't a team of lmgs vs. a team of an onos and a bunch of other aliens, the situation was a team of lmgs vs an onos. In which case the onos would either run or die most likely.
if you actually played in an alien half of a competetive scrim or match, you'd understand that ns isn't close to a fast team dm game...
First of all, it is way more likely for there to be a group of marines roving the map than a group of aliens. Each alien has different movement capabilities, while barring jps marines all move at roughly the same speed, and thus they stay in groups. Therefore it is NOT such a strange occurence for an onos to run into 4, 5, or 6 marines out of 6-9 marines.
Secondly, note:
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4+ [lmgs]makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NGE said that lmgs are not even a threat to onos. 4+ lvl3 lmgs are a HUGE deterrant for an onos; most chokepoints in ns maps can be completely controlled by lmgs, at least against onoses. Fades, however, can get in and get out quick enough to be okay, which is ironic considering the costs of each lifeform, but whatever. Smart onos or not, the fact of the matter is that, even if the lmgs don't kill him because the onos knows to stay away, the onos is still threatened by those lmgs. A smart onos won't get killed, but he won't kick the marines out of there either.
And I SAID <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I realize onoses shouldn't do much on their own. I said that. I was just saying that lmgs are definitely threats to an onos. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying one HA can't be killed by 4 skulks. If the HA has a shotty or HMG, he could win but it depends.
Anyhow the point is sure, an onos couldn't charge 4 LMG's down a huge hallway perhaps, but the LMG's could sure as hell not charge the onos around a courner either and expect to live.
Besides, the ability to an onos is to break bases. It kills structures really fast and does a good job at this.
The onos is a classic example of HP over skill type thing that exists in all RTS games. You always have the unit which takes a beating and doesn't beat the oppionent through good micromanagement, but rather through pure stats.
That's what the onos is. It's not a problem but if you don't like it tough.
The fade on the other hand is a skill type unit, one that's more effective than an onos (which is good) but can only be countered by skill. A good fade can kick the crap out of marines for a long time. However fades are also the worse base breakers because they kill structures the slowest.
Anyhow I think all of the classes are unique and serve a role, hardly redudant and fit nicely into the game. This is coming from a huge critic.
I wasn't complaining of balance, or how alien-X needs buffing because of Y-marine whatever, or, which seems to have been the focus for about the last 3 pages, how the onos needs a change (It does, but that's not what the original post was about)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the original poster, melee is the point of the alien team. Is anyone here arguing about the "redundancy" of the marine guns? Nope, because they're guns, they have range, that is their point. The same logic applies to aliens and melee, with a few exceptions that support the rule.
Hit and run makes sense for the Kharaa team. The main problem is that they cannot hit/run effectively once marines get MT. Also, the skulk class has a significant disadvantage if he's up against a marine that can aim, and since skulk is the default class...well, you see the picture. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This caught my eye. Well at least the first part.
You can complain about redundancy in marine guns because they aren't redundant. They all fill a specific role, hence their only being 4 of them.
LMG: General Purpose
Shotgun: Early game, close range, anti-structure/anti-personnel
HMG: Mid/Late game, Medium Range, Anti-personnel
GL: Mid/Late game, Medium/Long range anti-structure
The aliens, to me at least, all feel like they fill the exact same role of a hit&run unit. Which was the original point of everything, the aliens have a desperate lack of distinction between themselves, 2 mediocre support units, and 3 mediocre combat units do not mold together make a strong team.
I mean...shoot, all the races are nearly useless in the larger picture by themselves, but at the same time, as XCan has pointed out, have extreme difficulty working together. In a FF server it becomes dangerous in CQ, in non-FF it just becomes chaos with the larger units becoming blocked and the majority dieing hand-in-hand with marines, the only difference is that the marines can respawn and come back, pick up their guns and are almost at their same fighting capacity, while the aliens are now mostly skulks up against HMGs and shotguns. And here I am straying off my own path. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bottom line is: The alien team still has no real distinction amongst itselves as far as playing styles go. One thing that I have thought of however, which would be fairly simple, is just re-arrange the aliens abilities, give them specific roles instead of making them a cheap-imitation swiss army knife, re-arrange their abilties, dump some and add in new. Make the individual alien a specialist that would go together with their teammates, instead of our current situation of a poor-man's jack of all trades trying, and half-forced, to go solo, playing exactly same through out the game.
Now its really boring fighting aliens as none of them have ANY ranged weapons that actually matter, so shotguns defeat all of them. Whereas in 1.04 shotguns would own skulks, but lerks and fades would kill you easily unless you ambushed them round a corner.
It should go back to aliens being melee and long range, and marines having the medium-close range weapons.
At the moment aliens only have melee and it makes it less fun to play as a marine against.
I miss hiding from the spiking lerk behind a box with a shotgun, and calling for LMG backup to take him out, or sneaking up behind a fade and shotgunning him in the back. Now you just stand still and let the fade come to you before you fire...its so much more boring. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
now 1.04 had a lot of things wrong with it (mainly jetpacks and hitboxes) but it had much more variety in gameplay.