Fades ruling the scoreboard depends on how good the marine team is. To get an early fade (i.e. after 3 mins) a skulk has to rack up 5 or 6 kills which shouldn't happen if the marines are any good. Also if the commander rushes the armory upgrade, then hmgs will will be available when the first fades appear, and 3 or 4 hmgs will take a fade down before he has time to take a swipe.
So basically, it all depends on how good the marines are as to how many kills the fades get, imo :o
Twilight problem is that advanced armory--> HMG`s cant stop good fade. Fade moves way to fast for hmgs. IF you can pair those hmgs then the fade cant kill them(!!!!). I find it kind of easy to kill lone hmg with fade, just harras him some1 and after that go in same room blink around while and then finish the poor reloader.
+ if the rines are paired. You can allways go whack their rts or minibases
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fade could use a nerfing. Drop the armor to 100 and carapace for 200<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No way in Nine Hells! You really should remember when in previous builds fade had lower armor and even *two* shotgun blast could take him out without question. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Of course, now it takes about three if the insta-gib bug doesn't chomp him down first.
IMO, fade is now balanced the best of all units in the game, thus it is also favored by most players. Out of them all, he is the only one that can take decend damage, is fast enough, has a good chance in positions farmed with turrets and can even hunt down lone ramboes from building RTs. When compared to other units it could be no other way.
It's a pity that they removed free lerk flight -it was quite balanced for him too, for a while...
If you nerf the fades you end up with marines being even more overpowered. But if you don't change anything you put almost the whole win/loss-responsibility on 1-2 players, which really isn't what I think is right.
Think about it, no matter if it's competative or reg-pub with average skill. If the fades don't make a mistake they can keep the other team at bay until the 2nd hive goes up, and the rest of your mates can go advanced lifeform. However if the fades make a mistake and die early, you've lost, enough said. And don't give me how powerful skulks are if used properly, you don't win games with skulks, 9-13 bullets from the lmg...
<!--QuoteBegin-SLizer+Oct 21 2004, 07:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SLizer @ Oct 21 2004, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Twilight problem is that advanced armory--> HMG`s cant stop good fade. Fade moves way to fast for hmgs. IF you can pair those hmgs then the fade cant kill them(!!!!). I find it kind of easy to kill lone hmg with fade, just harras him some1 and after that go in same room blink around while and then finish the poor reloader.
+ if the rines are paired. You can allways go whack their rts or minibases <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well this goes back to my point about whether the marines are good or not. A good marine wont waste all his ammo on a blinking fade as they are difficult to track effectively. The best way of soloing a fade is to let him come in closer. Once you start hitting him, his HUD gets filled with blood decals and it becomes very difficult to see.
I admit, the same applies for a decent fade. He wont sit around if he is getting hammered by hmgs, he will scarper off to the hive to heal, and then come back and try and flank the marines and take them out one by one. But still, it should be possible to hold a fade off whilst you continue capping nodes or whatever your doing.
Yes I am <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not been about in awhile, still pop into the old hol clan to say hi but I don't have access to the internet yet (at work at the moment). Getting broadband soon though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I presume you are [HoL]Twilight then?
I love the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
People are talking about nerfing fade but in general people seem to complain that the aliens are underpowered, surely they need a few strong points? (pitiful attempt at adding something just so I can stay on-topic).
The 2.0 fade was an interesting creature. True, it had a strange hitbox, but it was entirely possible to solo a fade with a shotty if you got your aim down... not the perfect way to work balance, but it seemed to get them the right amount of simulated health. Azkar still owes me the giant lollipop for soloing two animosity fades within 20 seconds on origin.
Twilight Problem in pubs is that those hmg are most likely to get separated and then soloed by fade and there goes 30res down on the drain. Instead 1 fade that has even slight idea can harass rines efficiently with lmgs they jsut tend to die to those sgs. And fades are also supreme in taking out minibases, rines are all paired oki i go take down their hive-lockdown <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
you need at least 2 marines with at least 1 heavy weapon to kill a fade. 2 armor2'd marines with hmg's and welders can easily take a fade down if they can aim and the comm can med them.
unless of course they get distracted by skulks or spores.
Why are we suggesting nerfs on a fade just because marines who don't use teamwork can't kill fades. The game is based on teamwork, a team of marines can take down fades with a smart commander. By the time aliens get fades, the marines should have teched up somewhat. HMGs are an option but solid A1, W1, SG in a squad can take down a fade, especially on pubs. In competitive play, it relies more on the fade's skills and scouting of the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are we suggesting nerfs on a fade just because marines who don't use teamwork can't kill fades. The game is based on teamwork, a team of marines can take down fades with a smart commander. By the time aliens get fades, the marines should have teched up somewhat. HMGs are an option but solid A1, W1, SG in a squad can take down a fade, especially on pubs. In competitive play, it relies more on the fade's skills and scouting of the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You hit your head on the nail. The alien game is only revolving around the fade, the other creatures are only meant to support the fades.
<!--QuoteBegin-XCan+Oct 21 2004, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Oct 21 2004, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are we suggesting nerfs on a fade just because marines who don't use teamwork can't kill fades. The game is based on teamwork, a team of marines can take down fades with a smart commander. By the time aliens get fades, the marines should have teched up somewhat. HMGs are an option but solid A1, W1, SG in a squad can take down a fade, especially on pubs. In competitive play, it relies more on the fade's skills and scouting of the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You hit your head on the nail. The alien game is only revolving around the fade, the other creatures are only meant to support the fades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens.
Fades are THE frontline troop par excellance for the Kharaa. Thats about the long and short of it.
At mid-end game skulks barely register unless they've upgraded with Focus and Cara/Regen/Silence. Onos are a rarity and hard to really move around most maps (more for playerblocking than any inherent map flaws). Lerk is quite handy but mid-end game becomes pure support, and gorge is support for the entire game.
Fades can get Focus and become killing machines, they move faster than pretty much any other unit, and that also makes them harder to hit. Sure, they're not exceptionally tough but they move fast enough to dodge most fire, and failing that can quickly retreat from a firefight.
Since they're frontline, they're going to make more kills, and since they kill in 2 hits you'll see them snuffing more people than a skulk will.
A second thing is player skill. Most above average players will rush straight for fade, meaning from early-endgame they're going to be making kills. Being decent players, they're not likely to die, so they'll have a really good ratio of kills to deaths.
A possible third is that staying in an offensive role is going to garner you more kills. A gorge who saved the game by capping nodes, dropping hives, and making chambers is going to end up with very few kills because he's so busy building away from the front. If he goes Onos/Lerk endgame he's still going to likely end up Stomping or Umbra-ing supportively, which means no kills for him but lots of assists.
TBH the whole K:D thing needs to be removed, people are starting to fixate on it which means support classes are getting ignored in favour of the "glory boys".
<!--QuoteBegin-Jaml+Oct 21 2004, 01:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Oct 21 2004, 01:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think nerfing the Fade is not the answer. The problem is that Fades are pretty weak if an average player controls them but are invincible in the hands of a pro. This is because of blink. Blink totally removes the marine range advantage and combined with focus its insta kill most of the times. The marines simply can´t deal damage fast enough to a skilled fade before they die. I´ve taken on 2 and more marines many times as Fade and as long as you blink around you will take little to no damage. Just blink in swipe once blink upwards and then dependant of the situation try to get another focus swipe in or escape. With that tactic you can take on an entire marine squad and decimate them one by one. You are simply too fast for them to react accordingly. The only time a good fade dies is if he gets too greedy or gets stuck/blocked. So reducing hp or armor will just make the fade useless to newbies and average players while still be overpowered in the hands of a pro. The solution is to close the gap between pro and casual players by changing blink since its there where the problem lies. Its too fast. Removing/slowing/changing it you could increase health and make the Fade noob friendlier like the onos. And pros won´t be able to slaughter the entire marine team cause they can´t evade enemy fire as easily as now. Still skill would give them an advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> on this, i hafta agree...
its not that blink is cheesy in and of itself. its just that i noticed that even when your energy is down to nothing, you can still blink forwards in quick spurts, and never have a point where you have to really 'stop' blinking'. this goes double if you have the increase in energy ability *the name of which i dont recall*. i had never used the fade extensivly, and this was my first use of it, and found it quite easy to use to massacre people.
the only real fix i can think of offhand is to give blink a minimum amount needed to be used. whereas, once your energy drops so far *for example, say, below 1/2 of the total meter*, you need to wait for it to be over that amount before you can start to blink again. this way, it makes the fade seriously consider just how long they have, without modding much if anything else, as if they run out, escape will be that much harder.
granted, i do feel the marines need some kinda nerfs as well, moreso than aliens, so dont think im only thinking one side. im just sayin, in terms of the fade, thats all i can see it needing nerfed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Oct 21 2004, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 21 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since they're frontline, they're going to make more kills, and since they kill in 2 hits you'll see them snuffing more people than a skulk will. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ? bite > swipe <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is when it's an FPS game. Now I do know there are many of you who are dedicated to the gorge and think it's among the most fun things to be. However the great majority play the game because of the action. So why is it that <b>most</b> of the fights should only be fought by one or two players all of the time, and basicly the fate of the team lies on their shoulders too?
<!--QuoteBegin-XCan+Oct 21 2004, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Oct 21 2004, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 21 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is when it's an FPS game. Now I do know there are many of you who are dedicated to the gorge and think it's among the most fun things to be. However the great majority play the game because of the action. So why is it that <b>most</b> of the fights should only be fought by one or two players all of the time, and basicly the fate of the team lies on their shoulders too? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't or it shouldn't be, its true that fades usually roam by themselves but it's because they are scouting the map. With blink and bunny hop, fades can move pretty damn fast, crossing long lengths of the map to keep track of marine movement. Now if the marines were smart, they would move out in squads, usually outfitted with shotguns and some sort of passive upgrades. A smart fade wouldn't charge in and try to wipe the floor with those marines because he would get totally raped. Instead, the fade would then urgently communiate to his team saying, 'This many rines are heading to <this> hive!! Need help!" Then, if the alien team was using teamwork, a lerk would immediately respond and start gassing, draining away armor, skulks would set up ambushes around corners in the next room. Then when the marines are about to enter the next room, the fade blinks in and out, drawing fire and drawing marine attention. Then the skulks rush in, bite the ankles, dead marines. The fade could even blink back into the fray and help with the slaughter. NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often.
Just as mixed arms works for marines (LMG, Shotty, HMG trio squad), mixed arms also works for aliens. Lerk spores the marines' armor away and gets a few "support bites" in while the fade blinks in and blinks out, and one or two skulks set up for the ankle bite rush when the marine frontline begins to break, followed in by the lerk and fade to crush it, with a gorge somewhere behind the action for supporting healspray (almost 4x the healing rate of a lone DC at full energy).
Fades shouldn't fight alone. They can, and often do, but with even three aliens working together as various lifeforms, you can get much better results than even a lone uberfade.
Plus, if skulks wolfpack together and are masters of bait-and-switch, they can get a load of kills between them.
Fades are nice once the marines get big guns and stuff. You need fades at some point. No team is leet enough to win the game with skulk packs against any kind of decent, half-coordinated marine opposition past a certain point of the game. Besides, what else are you going to do with your res.
I don't know, I'm rambling, I have to go to class.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however.
I think you all are missing my points here. To make the facts short:
*Why is the aliens so incredibly dependant on Fades?
*Why is the whole team supporting these few Fades? All they work for is to bring up that fade and hope it does good.
*What can be done to make the other classes stand a better chance? The suggestion to nerf the fade while beefing up the lower lifeforms sounds good to me.
Never forget that there is a pub scene. Everyone wants to have fun in pub, and most people don't think gorging and supporting 1-2 players because they're good and need to fade is fun.
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it.
Why are aliens dependent on fades if the marine team is any good? Why is the marine team dependant on upgrades if the alien team is any good?
What kind of question is this? Every life form except for onos has a very critical role to play and if you do it properly you will be every bit as important to your team as ANY fade. In contrast a fade to have the same importance as a ok lerk or ok gorge has to be very top of the line if he is playing against organized marines.
Skulks are by far my favorite class to play against marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns.
Ummm, the onos has a critical role to play as well. Once you get two hives up, an onos seals the game with stomp, which is arguably more practically effective in NS than web for a support ability. The ability to, with one carefully aimed attack, remove a foe from battle along with all his equipment, is another role the onos has. These two roles compliment each other, making them doubly efficient. A third role the onos has is as a meatshield and room-sized distraction for smaller lifeforms. The onos has a huge melee range, and if I'm not mistaken it does double damage to structures, making its final role the alien's base-breaker unit.
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+Oct 21 2004, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Oct 21 2004, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are aliens dependent on fades if the marine team is any good? Why is the marine team dependant on upgrades if the alien team is any good?
What kind of question is this? Every life form except for onos has a very critical role to play and if you do it properly you will be every bit as important to your team as ANY fade. In contrast a fade to have the same importance as a ok lerk or ok gorge has to be very top of the line if he is playing against organized marines.
Skulks are by far my favorite class to play against marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You fail to read all my points. If you focus on just the single point yah it might seem like a silly question. Combine the points and you get a much clearer picture. To again make facts short, is it not right to give every player the chance to play the fade without risking to lose utterly? And CO doesn't count.
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 05:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 21 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Oct 20 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades were easier to solo in 2.0x <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades were never about just going up to a player and asorbing damage and trading blows it was about hit and run... and the fade back then had a less absorbant armor therefore they could attack more often, if a fade were to die instantly from 2 shotgun shots you'd still have like half your armor... the fade could get back into the action much faster and do more frequent attacks.
In fact one of the major complaints about 3.0 was how regen was far less powerful nowadays for the fade compared to the old 2.0 regen, which would just keep your HP up while your slower lasting armor would keep your alive through more wear and tear. Of course, the same is true for marines and thier medspam, but it the nerf to regen was more noticable.
Fades were also nerfed to cost 60... I'm almost certain the general agreement back then was that thefades were more powerful... still I wonder how it would play today.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ummm, the onos has a critical role to play as well. Once you get two hives up, an onos seals the game with stomp, which is arguably more practically effective in NS than web for a support ability<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To again make facts short, is it not right to give every player the chance to play the fade without risking to lose utterly?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no way to allow everyone to be fade. I don't understand what you're suggesting.
If you want to be good at alien and enjoy you need to like skulking.
When I say "practically effective" I mean that as far as abilities which completely paralyze the marines in place and allow teammates to collect the kills, you see stomp far more often than web, and it is easier to use since there isn't as much aiming skill involved and it stuns more people simultaniously and you're an onos so you don't have to worry about getting killed by a lone LMGer like the rare 3 hive NS gorge does. Along with the other things an onos can do, I'd say having one or more of them is a sign that the aliens have sealed the game up without needing to go for a third hive.
Or the short verson:
I'm sorry, but yes.
Appeals to the short version will be referred to the long version, further appeals will be directed to my post previous to this one.
Comments
So basically, it all depends on how good the marines are as to how many kills the fades get, imo :o
Fade moves way to fast for hmgs. IF you can pair those hmgs then the fade cant kill them(!!!!). I find it kind of easy to kill lone hmg with fade, just harras him some1 and after that go in same room blink around while and then finish the poor reloader.
+ if the rines are paired. You can allways go whack their rts or minibases
IMO, fade is now balanced the best of all units in the game, thus it is also favored by most players. Out of them all, he is the only one that can take decend damage, is fast enough, has a good chance in positions farmed with turrets and can even hunt down lone ramboes from building RTs. When compared to other units it could be no other way.
It's a pity that they removed free lerk flight -it was quite balanced for him too, for a while...
Think about it, no matter if it's competative or reg-pub with average skill. If the fades don't make a mistake they can keep the other team at bay until the 2nd hive goes up, and the rest of your mates can go advanced lifeform. However if the fades make a mistake and die early, you've lost, enough said. And don't give me how powerful skulks are if used properly, you don't win games with skulks, 9-13 bullets from the lmg...
Fade moves way to fast for hmgs. IF you can pair those hmgs then the fade cant kill them(!!!!). I find it kind of easy to kill lone hmg with fade, just harras him some1 and after that go in same room blink around while and then finish the poor reloader.
+ if the rines are paired. You can allways go whack their rts or minibases <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this goes back to my point about whether the marines are good or not. A good marine wont waste all his ammo on a blinking fade as they are difficult to track effectively. The best way of soloing a fade is to let him come in closer. Once you start hitting him, his HUD gets filled with blood decals and it becomes very difficult to see.
I admit, the same applies for a decent fade. He wont sit around if he is getting hammered by hmgs, he will scarper off to the hive to heal, and then come back and try and flank the marines and take them out one by one. But still, it should be possible to hold a fade off whilst you continue capping nodes or whatever your doing.
Edit: Is that CMEast from [HoL] in your tfc days?
Not been about in awhile, still pop into the old hol clan to say hi but I don't have access to the internet yet (at work at the moment). Getting broadband soon though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I presume you are [HoL]Twilight then?
I love the internet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
People are talking about nerfing fade but in general people seem to complain that the aliens are underpowered, surely they need a few strong points? (pitiful attempt at adding something just so I can stay on-topic).
Azkar still owes me the giant lollipop for soloing two animosity fades within 20 seconds on origin.
Twilight Problem in pubs is that those hmg are most likely to get separated and then soloed by fade and there goes 30res down on the drain. Instead 1 fade that has even slight idea can harass rines efficiently with lmgs they jsut tend to die to those sgs. And fades are also supreme in taking out minibases, rines are all paired oki i go take down their hive-lockdown <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(nice for you 2 to find back together! )
unless of course they get distracted by skulks or spores.
You hit your head on the nail. The alien game is only revolving around the fade, the other creatures are only meant to support the fades.
You hit your head on the nail. The alien game is only revolving around the fade, the other creatures are only meant to support the fades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens.
At mid-end game skulks barely register unless they've upgraded with Focus and Cara/Regen/Silence. Onos are a rarity and hard to really move around most maps (more for playerblocking than any inherent map flaws). Lerk is quite handy but mid-end game becomes pure support, and gorge is support for the entire game.
Fades can get Focus and become killing machines, they move faster than pretty much any other unit, and that also makes them harder to hit. Sure, they're not exceptionally tough but they move fast enough to dodge most fire, and failing that can quickly retreat from a firefight.
Since they're frontline, they're going to make more kills, and since they kill in 2 hits you'll see them snuffing more people than a skulk will.
A second thing is player skill. Most above average players will rush straight for fade, meaning from early-endgame they're going to be making kills. Being decent players, they're not likely to die, so they'll have a really good ratio of kills to deaths.
A possible third is that staying in an offensive role is going to garner you more kills. A gorge who saved the game by capping nodes, dropping hives, and making chambers is going to end up with very few kills because he's so busy building away from the front. If he goes Onos/Lerk endgame he's still going to likely end up Stomping or Umbra-ing supportively, which means no kills for him but lots of assists.
TBH the whole K:D thing needs to be removed, people are starting to fixate on it which means support classes are getting ignored in favour of the "glory boys".
on this, i hafta agree...
its not that blink is cheesy in and of itself. its just that i noticed that even when your energy is down to nothing, you can still blink forwards in quick spurts, and never have a point where you have to really 'stop' blinking'. this goes double if you have the increase in energy ability *the name of which i dont recall*. i had never used the fade extensivly, and this was my first use of it, and found it quite easy to use to massacre people.
the only real fix i can think of offhand is to give blink a minimum amount needed to be used. whereas, once your energy drops so far *for example, say, below 1/2 of the total meter*, you need to wait for it to be over that amount before you can start to blink again. this way, it makes the fade seriously consider just how long they have, without modding much if anything else, as if they run out, escape will be that much harder.
granted, i do feel the marines need some kinda nerfs as well, moreso than aliens, so dont think im only thinking one side. im just sayin, in terms of the fade, thats all i can see it needing nerfed.
?
bite > swipe <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is when it's an FPS game. Now I do know there are many of you who are dedicated to the gorge and think it's among the most fun things to be. However the great majority play the game because of the action. So why is it that <b>most</b> of the fights should only be fought by one or two players all of the time, and basicly the fate of the team lies on their shoulders too?
There's nothing wrong with relying on a higher evolution creature to win games. You can't expect to win games with just skulks, just like you can't expect to win games with just level 0 LMGs. There's reason why there's advancements in technology in the game. People who build turrets as commanders usually lose games because they lose the technology race against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is when it's an FPS game. Now I do know there are many of you who are dedicated to the gorge and think it's among the most fun things to be. However the great majority play the game because of the action. So why is it that <b>most</b> of the fights should only be fought by one or two players all of the time, and basicly the fate of the team lies on their shoulders too? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't or it shouldn't be, its true that fades usually roam by themselves but it's because they are scouting the map. With blink and bunny hop, fades can move pretty damn fast, crossing long lengths of the map to keep track of marine movement. Now if the marines were smart, they would move out in squads, usually outfitted with shotguns and some sort of passive upgrades. A smart fade wouldn't charge in and try to wipe the floor with those marines because he would get totally raped. Instead, the fade would then urgently communiate to his team saying, 'This many rines are heading to <this> hive!! Need help!" Then, if the alien team was using teamwork, a lerk would immediately respond and start gassing, draining away armor, skulks would set up ambushes around corners in the next room. Then when the marines are about to enter the next room, the fade blinks in and out, drawing fire and drawing marine attention. Then the skulks rush in, bite the ankles, dead marines. The fade could even blink back into the fray and help with the slaughter. NS should be a team effort, it's just not displayed that often.
Just as mixed arms works for marines (LMG, Shotty, HMG trio squad), mixed arms also works for aliens. Lerk spores the marines' armor away and gets a few "support bites" in while the fade blinks in and blinks out, and one or two skulks set up for the ankle bite rush when the marine frontline begins to break, followed in by the lerk and fade to crush it, with a gorge somewhere behind the action for supporting healspray (almost 4x the healing rate of a lone DC at full energy).
Fades shouldn't fight alone. They can, and often do, but with even three aliens working together as various lifeforms, you can get much better results than even a lone uberfade.
Plus, if skulks wolfpack together and are masters of bait-and-switch, they can get a load of kills between them.
Fades are nice once the marines get big guns and stuff. You need fades at some point. No team is leet enough to win the game with skulk packs against any kind of decent, half-coordinated marine opposition past a certain point of the game. Besides, what else are you going to do with your res.
I don't know, I'm rambling, I have to go to class.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however.
*Why is the aliens so incredibly dependant on Fades?
*Why is the whole team supporting these few Fades? All they work for is to bring up that fade and hope it does good.
*What can be done to make the other classes stand a better chance? The suggestion to nerf the fade while beefing up the lower lifeforms sounds good to me.
Never forget that there is a pub scene. Everyone wants to have fun in pub, and most people don't think gorging and supporting 1-2 players because they're good and need to fade is fun.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it.
What kind of question is this? Every life form except for onos has a very critical role to play and if you do it properly you will be every bit as important to your team as ANY fade. In contrast a fade to have the same importance as a ok lerk or ok gorge has to be very top of the line if he is playing against organized marines.
Skulks are by far my favorite class to play against marines.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns.
Don't say the onos doesn't have a critical role.
What kind of question is this? Every life form except for onos has a very critical role to play and if you do it properly you will be every bit as important to your team as ANY fade. In contrast a fade to have the same importance as a ok lerk or ok gorge has to be very top of the line if he is playing against organized marines.
Skulks are by far my favorite class to play against marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to read all my points. If you focus on just the single point yah it might seem like a silly question. Combine the points and you get a much clearer picture. To again make facts short, is it not right to give every player the chance to play the fade without risking to lose utterly? And CO doesn't count.
Fades in 2.0 were faster, had smaller hitboxes, they always carried the impression to me of being better than they are now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being faster didn't mean anything when it took only two shotty blasts with weapons 2 to die.
This is assuming the guy with the shotty could aim, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize that rennex, but those shots had to be point blank, and due to the small size of the fades hitbox the fade would have sit there for two shots. Fades with teamwork with other skulks generally could take on just about anything.
The fade's deadliness is what allowed the better team to almost always win in 2.0.
Also LMG's were just plain crap against fades back then, unless you had an aimbot... you pretty much had to have a shotgun or HMG or you would not kill the fade.
Man it's been awhile since I've played 2.0, I kinda miss it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh it had to be point-blank, its also happens to be the only range a fade can hit you. That's how a melee attack works.
Compare the time it takes to swipe three or even two times to the time needed to unload two shots.
Yes fades were faster but the 3.0 fade is more forgiving of mistakes involving encounters with the green guys with guns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades were never about just going up to a player and asorbing damage and trading blows it was about hit and run... and the fade back then had a less absorbant armor therefore they could attack more often, if a fade were to die instantly from 2 shotgun shots you'd still have like half your armor... the fade could get back into the action much faster and do more frequent attacks.
In fact one of the major complaints about 3.0 was how regen was far less powerful nowadays for the fade compared to the old 2.0 regen, which would just keep your HP up while your slower lasting armor would keep your alive through more wear and tear. Of course, the same is true for marines and thier medspam, but it the nerf to regen was more noticable.
Fades were also nerfed to cost 60... I'm almost certain the general agreement back then was that thefades were more powerful... still I wonder how it would play today.
no
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To again make facts short, is it not right to give every player the chance to play the fade without risking to lose utterly?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no way to allow everyone to be fade. I don't understand what you're suggesting.
If you want to be good at alien and enjoy you need to like skulking.
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--><span style='color:yellow'> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?</span> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or the short verson:
I'm sorry, but yes.
Appeals to the short version will be referred to the long version, further appeals will be directed to my post previous to this one.
I'm just reporting what I see good onos doing.