Mds

SaltzBad · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fried_rice @ Nov 13 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Overall in about 80% of our matches, the opposing clans did the regular 3 step tier build and lasted very long or beat us. I doubt that anyone who has done MDS or SDM has ever won because of the marine's ability to constantly monitor the alien's progress and then adapt. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Uh, get on gamesurge IRC after or around 6 PST. Obscure would happily scrim you, just for the laughs. For all I care a euro server or wherever you guys are from is fine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Edit : Bring lube, so you can still sit the next day.

fried_rice · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Nov 15 2004, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fried_rice @ Nov 13 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Overall in about 80% of our matches, the opposing clans did the regular 3 step tier build and lasted very long or beat us. I doubt that anyone who has done MDS or SDM has ever won because of the marine's ability to constantly monitor the alien's progress and then adapt. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Uh, get on gamesurge IRC after or around 6 PST. Obscure would happily scrim you, just for the laughs. For all I care a euro server or wherever you guys are from is fine <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Edit : Bring lube, so you can still sit the next day. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
erm that was my former clan that is dead now XD. But saltz wouldn't you agree that movement first is not a great idea? How many times have you done it to the point that you've actually beat good clans?

SaltzBad · November 2004

Almost every time - its usually either MC or SC for us, I think last time we used DCs was on Eclipse for one specific hive with one specific dropspot and one specific upgrade and gorging routine that worked only for a few specific reasons. Hell back when we were an inferior clan, we beat the old #cri on ns_nothing 3 times in a row on aliens (meaning 3 alientied scrims). Back then we didn't have much talent - at all.

Since then its been refined so far that our alienround, although still severely lacking in some areas of personal skill (in my oppinion, although most of us are objectively speaking Delta quality - I'm just harsh on them <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />), can realisticly beat any team, including top delta ones like terror and exigent.

Several other clans have this season switched to MCs or SCs too - prevalence, Reflect and gorgelovin being the 3 most well-known ones. Terror (with questionable benefits) uses SCs for their 2nd Hive - mostly because they rely heavily on Fades and only lightly on Skulks and Lerks. Even top teams that are still going with DCs are facing increasing difficultys as the competitive level throughout this season was on the rise - for example exigents 3 fade (2 nodes and the RT-perma drops DCs) strat was utterly annihilated although terror fielded an umimpressive earlygame. Simple good defensive play beat the lack of truely dangerous DC upgrades (since both Carapace and Regeneration merely increase survivability, not the ability to penetrate a marine group). As a result 2 of their Fades died very early on, unable to blink fast enough or hit hard enough to skirmish reliably with a group of 4 smart shotgunners. They had no Celerity/Silence Skulksupport, cloaking Zones of Influence or other aids either to take down such a group - hell, they almost lost their primary hive by a simple walk in, because DCs simply do NOT field the power necessary for a competitive game.

The reason defense chambers are popular is because they're good for the lazy, uncoordinated and uncareful. You can justify being an unupgraded suicide Skulk with DCs, you don't need any healing gorges, an elaborate MC system and dropping coordination, noone needs to have the presence of mind to hit the building Hive at the right times and hell it almost doesn't matter where you drop them, the benefits most people care about still apply regardless. Its even the most resilient chamber, approx. 1.5 times as durable as any other.

That however does not ultimately disqualify it from earlygame uselessness. Its a piece of crap, lets get over it. I can see its midgame justification, where staying power is alot more interesting and can be complimented by MC or SC abilitys - but even there its a close call (essentially, if you're on the defensive midgame, get sensory - if its just about finishing off their base, get DCs for the staying power).

fried_rice · November 2004

yea you're probably right (dunno what changes they made to the chambers b/c i haven't played the latest patch) after i read what you told me. But still, broken builds like MDS or SDM require extremely good coordination between clan members to be able to pull it off.

Depending on how good the rine commander is and on how skilled his rines are, he'll usually find a fast way to counter-tech the aliens.

SaltzBad · November 2004

Theres only one working counter, and thats killing aliens alot harder than before. Motion Tracking does nothing, as you're not countering Celerity, Spores, Hivemovement and the fact that you have delayed A1.

In fact, the rise of these strategys has forced more aggressive marineplay, and thats about it. Because it increases the dilemma that if marines cannot push their way towards alien nodes in the first 30 seconds of the game, the chambers will be up - and most likely a Lerk, and chances of victory almost or entirely nil.

Meto · November 2004

I find regen useless on the fade because you can simply pop over to the hive instead of sitting in some vent/corridor waiting to heal. Normally takes about the same time anyway.

I always take carapce because it means I can face greater odds (e.g. multiple shotguns) with more ease. I'm still cautious but I know that I can normally get at least 1 more swipe in before I leave, often enough to take out 1 more marine.

I think MC first is a great strategy especially for regen fades as they just have to change their tactics. The bonus of getting around even quicker, breaking lockdowns easily and defending the hives is worth it.

Certainly something worth toying with and seeing how it turns out.

For fades celerity is definetly the right choice because it's a decent fade should never run out of adrenaline. If you make it to two hives you can just meta anyway. Haven't really tried silence yet though.

Cheese · November 2004

hmm as far as i see it the biggest Problem for fades with MCs is the following.

Im thinking about a Celerity Fade 8adren/silence arent seen very often). He charges in and takes one ful Shotty Blast. Now lets say his Health is down to

100/70 (or something like that) Will he chareg again? to take another SG Blast some bullets and die? Or will he retreat to the hive to get his 200 HP back? Well i would go back to the Hive. With regen the Marines cant ever be sure if the fades healed out and waits for them around the next coreners.

Personally i love MC first because i like CombatLerking with Celerity...but i know many Fades who really have problems with Celerity instead of regen.

DC_Darkling · November 2004

so you get regen, get your hp up from 100/70 to 120/70, the shotgunners hears the healing or the comm does and waypoints him, he shoots, you die.

only n00bs forget to listen for healing sounds, or any sound for that matter.

Ravatar · November 2004

People get DC first for a 3 minute fade.

TheAdj · November 2004

The only reason movement and sensory aren't used more is it requires actual alien teamwork and less reliance on fades and more on skulks. It requires more than uber fades to regen-rape marines to win with, which is more than most pubs can handle. Sensory and movement are both viable, they just require intelligence and skill on the alien side of the board, something which is normally lacking, especially in non-competitive environments which often don't even get DMS strats correct. Change is too much for people and few people know how to effectively utilize anything but the fade (how many good skulks do you see? Gorges? Lerks? Few), and most people can't even swing that.

BulletHead · November 2004

Personally I prefer SMD, as sensory gives SoF and Cloaking... and for the first 2 or three rushes, focus.

Focus in the first 30 seconds is DEVASTATING to marines

SoF allows one or two people to be the teams "motion tracking" and keep tabs on all of them (plz, make sure you have GOOD MICROPHONES for this)

Cloaking- DUH, ambush! Fun to have 7 gorges take cloaking, sneak into marine start, then OC spam the CRAPPER out of it!

But Celerity and SIlence are also VERY good game starters

I'm going to bed... my computer is moving due to my eyes being unable to focus from lack of sleep...

KILLER SPIT OF DEWMZOR FOR SHIZAL MAH NIZZAL!!!!!!111oneoneeleventeen <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Buggy · November 2004

MC's first work quite well in clanmatches, although more useful on one map than another. Tanith, Eclipse, Origin ... good mc maps

If you want to try it out in a scrim sometime:

Fade
RT Fade
Lerk
RT MC
2x MC
Hive

Do note that just doing this won't make it work 100%, you need a lot of fine-tuning, but i'll leave the final puzzle pieces up to you.

Cataclysmic_Desires · November 2004

I find that the whole MDS or SDM is quite easily obtained as long as you have a regular or two playing with you and you yourself have an alien commanding spirit (Search for the Alien Commanding Thread). More and more, when playing with a friend or two, I've declared to everyone I'm dropping movement. Told them get silence or celerity. When MT shows up on the scene drop the silence and stick with celerity. From there I tell one of my friends to drop and RT and the other to guard key marines passages. This ensures that at least someone on the team is contibuting to the Res flow, yet there is someone still on the look out for marine movement. The guy guarding saves for hive while I save for the DCs. What everyone else does depends on their nature and if I give them specific or general orders.

In general I've found MDS, though more easily picked up by marines (as in knowing we have MCs first), gives the Marines more difficulty in moving out and establishing a foothold early on. By the time they may have mustered up enough strength or MT, 2nd hive is going up with DCs ready to drop... and remember that guy who dropped the RT in the beginning? Yep, he goes Fade. Thats at least 70 spent by me, 50 by the guard, and 75 by the RT/Fade... well rounded in terms of Res spent and helping out the team.

SLizer · November 2004

Its shame that so-many people are missing from these forums. If we could get even 1/4 of every pubber here Id say Ns skill would go 50%-overall up!

"In pubs you allways get teh dc it has allways been so and it allways will be"

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> -Pubber-

Thats the problem you need to smack down those MCs and tell watch over them to get it correctly(actually all you need is hive-saver <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /> ,fades will pop out i guarantee <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /> )

Ravatar · January 2005

90% of the time pubbies are not coordinated enough or skilled enough to pull off a MDS.

Swift_Idiot · January 2005

MDS requires team coordination and two or three brave gorges who will put MCs down outside of the hive during the first few minutes in smart places.

A one-hive MC fade has to retreat to the hive to heal, or find a gorge with adren. Having an MC somewhere near where the marines are clustering allows the fade to retreat to it and simply save time by teleporting directly back to the hive for healing, like a manually operated redemption. If the fade has to go forward AND backward all the time, he's spending more time commuting than attacking. Being able to hit marines and then zip back to the hive using a hidden MC helps a one hive MC fade out bigtime.

This goes without saying but no matter what upgrade your team chooses to start, it's a great idea to put the structures outside of the hive and near the front lines, where your teammates can recieve the benefits. The Power-Subjunction 3 vent in ns_eclipse, which gorges always put DCs in, is a perfect example. Other lesser known maps have locations like this as well, but the gorges have to be able to get there and build without being killed for there to be a benefit. With no other upgrade does putting the structures outside the hive matter more than with sensory. You HAVE to put the SCs outside of the hive and in strategic locations, or it is a waste. It works the same with DC or MC. I just figured I'd mention it. You shouldn't have three MCs or SCs in your hive room. Even DCs are better somewhere near the front line than just stacked under the hive. The further forward to the marines you can build a structure, the more useful it will be to the surrounding teammates. Keep it in mind all you gorge fanatics.

Armageddon · January 2005

Any chamber order will work as long as the team has really good coordination and ambushes. I started using celerity as a fade and I gotta say that the speed boost it gives makes it harder for a fade to get hit.

Faskalia · January 2005

I am playing with the thv guys quite frequently and MDS works quite well.

What does Mc first grant me?

-As a skulk i can risk to charge rines and i can munch those nasty hoppers much better.

-As a gorge i can solo a single rines or outrun him. Note that Dc also allows a good gorge to solo a rine.

-As a lerk i can spore spam rines early or i can swoop in for some kills thanks to cele.

-As a Fade i dont run out of energy thanks to cele and i can retreat to the hive very quickly. (in case i need some healing)

-I dont go onos with only Mc.

The Fade benefits the most from MC.
-U take less damage
-U heal faster (retreating to the hive)
-U dont run out of energy (one blink lets u blink farther)
-U wander alot more around the map (thus making it much harder for ninjas)

Just think about the following:
-What upgrades do u have when u fade in co? (for me its only cele)
-What is your first upgrade in co? (again for me its cele)

I am shure that most ppl who consider themself decent players choose an upgrade from the Mc branch or unlock 1 as first upgrade in co.

Lofung · January 2005

try, mds?
the n00bs gonna wet their pents when they see a mc instead of dc, u gonna end yourself up with a kick XD

SLizer · January 2005

Personally I also like MC as best because of few reasons: no nubres-fade/oni, best small critter upgrds/hive lockdowns=nothing(just teleport half of your team there as soon as its up....)

The only problem is that pubbers havent yet figured this out and they start to whine immediatly after seeing MC and poorly quite often stops playing completely(f4) or not serious. MC is the best chamber but it need more than DC and while pubber think it joke they take it even worse than DC. Thats the problem with it. If you have 3-4 gamewise guy you should allready get mc effective. Otherwise if you got team of nobodys stick to DC and allmost all are happy(Sad isnt it?)

Ravatar · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SLizer @ Jan 10 2005, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Personally I also like MC as best because of few reasons: no nubres-fade/oni, best small critter upgrds/hive lockdowns=nothing(just teleport half of your team there as soon as its up....)

The only problem is that pubbers havent yet figured this out and they start to whine immediatly after seeing MC and poorly quite often stops playing completely(f4) or not serious. MC is the best chamber but it need more than DC and while pubber think it joke they take it even worse than DC. Thats the problem with it. If you have 3-4 gamewise guy you should allready get mc effective. Otherwise if you got team of nobodys stick to DC and allmost all are happy(Sad isnt it?)  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The thing i like most about DC rush on b6 is definitely carapace rushes.

SLizer · January 2005

Yepp im waiting terrified to face cele/cara skulk by default bwrr <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

XopherMV · January 2005

This post should be required reading for all the noobs out there.

DC_Darkling · January 2005

B6 is great for MC hive 1. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Traken · January 2005

B6...

Innate regen
Upgrades not costing anything (i think)

MDS will be awesome. Skulks might actually be useful without having to know how to bhop or die before getting close.

Mds

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