I play games cause I like to kill stuff (in games of course), be something I'm not, blow stuff up, make blood go everywhere, cure boredom, and most of all watch people get angry at stuff, like when someone is "cheating" and they flip out. Oh man that makes me laugh. I am not a Christian person, but I do beleive in a reason, a purpose for it all. I just try to have as much fun as I can while I still can. I live in the moment for the moment. I have done stuff that was bad, but I regret none of it. The sheer rush you get when you ride the crazy mofo rollercoaster or bang a chick is beyond what any drug will ever do. Death comes fast, do what you can. Don't let yourself get consumed by a religion where they deprive you of something available... (not talking about any particular, don't take this in a wrong way.) I beleive we are here to do what we can without taking that privelege away from others. My view on the subject of the initial post is that anyone who thinks that an object or art or any other form of entertainment can be "evil" is just rediculous(Bad Spelling).
I was joking H'bnayr, man your name is hard to spell. It is a good quote though, I got it off www.positiveatheism.com. Nicely written paragraph Mobieus, that is exactly how I feel.
<!--QuoteBegin--H'BNayr+Nov 13 2002, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (H'BNayr @ Nov 13 2002, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Ice Wolf+Nov 12 2002, 02:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ice Wolf @ Nov 12 2002, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I too am a gamer and a Christian, and I happen to know alot of people who are anti-religious. They often question God and his work, and sometimes I am at a loss of what to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Understand that I question God not because I am anti-religious, but because I hope to understand Him better through skeptical analysis of the world around me.
-Ryan!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -- Epicurus<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, Ice Wolf, thanks.
Next,
What if he is both able and willing, but chooses to allow his creations to have free will?
If there were no free will, there would be no evil, Adam and Eve could not have eaten the apple, the commandments would have been un-neccisary.
However, we were created in his image, to fulfill our own choices. The commandment reads, : "Thou Shalt not Kill", not, "Thou shalt not be tempted to kill."
If we could not indulge temptation, then there would be no temptation in the first place.
As for the tales of old testement slaughters... This is something I have trouble with as well as you guys. However, I choose to believe that the compassion that God showed when he offered to sacrifice his son for the eternal life of his imperfect creations, well overshowes any harsh judgement that he could have delt out during OT times. Not only that, but the bible says in Mark 2 that "New wine cannot be placed in old wineskins.", Old covenant judgement cannot be applied to new covenant lessons on life.
But perhaps I was reacting in the wrong sense to his quote. I was reacting to his allogation that the bible was written to control the masses. IE: Simon Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke and John were evil men bent on tyrrany.
Oh, BTW, Longtooth...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that people of faith thank their god(s) for the things they have. Did they not earn them for themselves? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have earned it for myself, but what about my God-given abilities to earn those things? The truth is, without my mind, I am nothing. My grades would not be nearly where they are, and I would not be able to get my own job to buy the things you speak of.
I thank the Lord for the situations I am placed in, and for the people that have been placed in my life, in addition to "m3h m4d r337 sk1llz"
I suppose that is why I don't understand the thanking of god, because all of my abilities were given to me by my parents, after all <b>they</b> created me. As for the slaugters of man, woman, child, infant, and animal that god ordered in the old testament, I fail to see how the sarcrafice of one son could come even close to showing enough compassion to make that okay. At least the Nazi's didn't kill the animals.
<!--QuoteBegin--Longtooth+Nov 14 2002, 03:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Longtooth @ Nov 14 2002, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suppose that is why I don't understand the thanking of god, because all of my abilities were given to me by my parents, after all <b>they</b> created me. As for the slaugters of man, woman, child, infant, and animal that god ordered in the old testament, I fail to see how the sarcrafice of one son could come even close to showing enough compassion to make that okay. At least the Nazi's didn't kill the animals.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets think of it this way. Assume for a second, that God is blameless, perfect, and all that jazz.
We are deserving of his judgement. We've broken his commandments, all of us, and basicly shut him out of our lives. If I made the rules, someone who did that would be dead, and suffering forever.
But instead of destroy us, he offers us a way to reconcile again with us, his son, Jesus Christ. Our sins are payed for through him, and we can be blameless in his eyes once again. Yeah, corny as hell, I know, but bear with me.
Now, if we believe that people are all deserving of his judgement, then what quarrel can we have with him exerting his judgement, which he had every right to do, onto us, his creations, the things that he created to glorify him. Now the infants... I don't believe are capable of sinning because they can't even comprehend the world around them yet. I believe they were spared his judgement, personally.
It explicitley says <b>Everything that breathes</b> not just the adults, not just the humans. <b>Everything that breathes</b>. And now imagine with me if you raised cattle, and several of the cattle in one herd started to behave badly, what would you do? Wipe out the whole herd? Thats what god would do. And not just the cattle, any animal that would happen to be standing in the area of the herd. Even the baby cows. Like I said, at least the Nazi's spared the animals. The Old Testament shows that god isn't the all loving being that modern Christians try to say he is.
This is a bad subject to have because people like me can post on it.lol. Really though, I don't mean to bash but religion is not my thing, I'm not atheist just agnostic (dont know what it is? Then why should you care?) My look at it is, I am a good guy, I don't kill people, I don't harm people, I don't hit women or rob people. I do believe in god and I am humble in some ways, I respect the land and such, and if that means that by being a good person and not going to church I die and go to hell anyway, I say that is a rather egotistical god no? Wanting constant attention, (I had my mom pressed me to be a JW.) then no thank you. Second though is a little stranger, you play SoF2? Why would you play that other than to enjoy the amazing death and gore? I myself am addicted to it, the sound of a fresh victom choking on his/her own blood?...truly bliss to the ears. Not that I would do it in life, but... hahaha, anyway. I think it's based here. You can do religion anyway you want, you can worshop god in anyway you want. If you think that playing violent video games and watching sex films makes you a bad person then to you it does. If you think that playing violent video games is a release for you, to release your violent wants on the VR world instead of real life (that's mine you can use it but give me credit) then that is also your choice. Second, why would watching sex films make you a bad person? Humans are created with two genetic things in the mind Survive, spread seed or mate. We are attracted to sex because 1, feels good (duh) 2 it's a basic human desire...just my out look but hey.
I read the rest of this post and I might say, I like it! You people are giving some great responses to this and I might add some info about god and religion that I see in my own light here.
If man is created in gods image why are we imperfect? ( I understand adam and eve thing how we become more and more imperfect, two things there. How did they screw up when they were perfect then, and why have scientists proven the brain is becoming more and more advanced through our years of evolution? Shouldn't we be down grading?)
If the angels are perfect and have all wants and need fulfilled and are also created in god's image, what the hell went wrong with Satan? Second what about demons? What happened with them.
If man is in god's image, and we have free will. Why the hell did he make Adam and Eve stupid enough to talk with a talking snake? Free will, perfect body no brains...bad combo god.
If god is suppost to exsist, when was the last time he did a actual miracle. I men he parted the damn sea for the people. He flooded the world for the people, yet now in these times of economic problems and such when we need him just as bad he's gone? Also yes what the kings did to the people (the egyptian...Pharos? How do you spell it?) I think the Holocaust was slightly ummm, worse and much grander scale, I mean god has saved Jewish people before, why not then?
Who's to say the Bible isn't just a well comprised story? We have psychics today that can see the future. Whos to say it wasn't a story written in that form to mess with people? I mean there were insane people back then as well as now you know. I mean did your great great great great great great grandpa know someone who was a part of the bible and that is 100% true family history?
Why is it that god only appears to those that appear insane and with severe mental problems?
Why is it for some religions that god is so extreme and egotistical needing 3 to 5 days a WEEK in church? He created us so we could kiss his a$$ 24/7?
Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?
Why is christmas the celebration of Jesus's birthday yet it is in the bible that he was born in spring?
If you look, god and people work a lot alike. With god, someone makes a mistake, his whole family must suffer. In life, the smart people must take responseability for all the stupid peoples problems, also the stupid people are rewarded for being stupid (Burgler broke into womans house, feel on knife, sued woman for cutting himself on knife won 50k. Woman smoked cigs for 50 years, got cancer then won about 1.3 billion dollars in suet.) Stupid people yet they are rewarded while us smart people are under stress.
Why is god perfect and loving and with just vengnece. Yet we are taught to fear his Vengence and not truly expect his love when we do something right?
Why would there be a hell for us when earth is already so bad?
Why is it that people like the Taliban fight for god yet the winning army fights in his name?
God always sides with the biggest army.
How are we suppost to talk to god when he can't/won't reply with words?
People claim that god saved them, of course they lost their legs and arms and can't move any more but they are sill alive and thank god? I would prefer to be dead.
Why is it that gods gifts you have to work for (such as when the people in the bible needed food or water they had to hunt the food and dig up the water) yet his vengence you don't need to work for?
Many of gods rules are civilized in todays world, explain such.
What about if in the bible they god the names reversed, God is bad and Satan is good? I mean think of it, god wants you to go to church, never involve yourself in violence, don't eat meat, do not have fun sex even with your wife! and does not want you to watch violent movies. Yet Satan allows such? Yes that is suppost to currupt. Yet a smart person is not thrown by violence and such, among that what about if the hell of constraint that is made is the plan of evil to destroy your mortal life?
If we are suppost to enjoy life why doesn't god give us a list of cheap things to do for fun? He want's us not to see violence or play video games OR listen to bad music. I mean ok but give me something cheap to do, unless you'd like to pay for my entertainment.
Why does god give us the want to mate yet not want us to mate with people unless we are married to them?
How old is the bible? I mean they use the word rainbow in the book yet, that word did not exsist in english for a good many years after the bible was finished, second the original english version (you know tho not art sorta stuff) Does have the exact match of english which as we know cannot be.
If the bible says that the bible is complete, how come religions like JW's keep getting more and more 'material' on the bible?
This is just a small sample of things I have pondered, I have better questions which I have brought up with class mates in school. I am not proud to say this but they have chosen to become agnostic because of me, not a good thing but it has happend. Think this over before you comment on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if he is both able and willing, but chooses to allow his creations to have free will?
If there were no free will, there would be no evil, Adam and Eve could not have eaten the apple, the commandments would have been un-neccisary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the deal with that?
God "Here is a paradise with everything you could possibly want, but whatever you do don't eat the fruit from this tree."
Adam "What, you don't trust me?"
God "No, I do Adam; but you see. I know everything. So therefore, I already know if you are going to eat from this tree or not."
Adam "Then why even put it there in the first place?"
God "........"
God "I have no **obscenity** idea. Your right Adam, this is utterly rediculous. Let's go get high on life."
Adam "God, your such a joker."
hahahaha, he sure is. I'm so glad the bible makes these things so clear for me. God loves me so much and yet he sure is oretty abscure oin the details.
Infants are dinners because ALL of us are born into sin for what adam did. Children are sinners becasue they are selfish gluttons. All they do Is take and want and cry.
This whole "evil-games" is just hype garbage Its human works, which should not be trusted. If you know gods word then you will understand what is to be done in each situation in life. Games are fiction, you as a moral intelligent human should be able to know its fiction and nothing more.
If you have faith and follow in christ He will provide you with EVERYTHING YOU NEED NOT WANT!!!
The bible says, as a believer, you should tell everyone about christ. But I don't think you should FORCE your opinions on others. Vice versa is true. If you don't believe in god, fine maybe one day you will learn but until then you have no right to bash ANY religion.
To many human works have skewed what the bible says. If you believeyou are a sinner and Christ Died for our sins and he is our savior you will go to heaven. Now depending on what you do during your life will determine how you get judged once you get there.
anyways that got long... If you can not play a video game without it tempting you to break one of gods laws (killing, stealing, worshiping satan whatever then you've got other issues to work out that go well beyond videogames....
ugh now that I'm done sounding like a sunday school teacher back to killing some marines... hehe
oh and just as a side note I think humans have corrupted what organized religion used to be. Organized religion is not bad if you cna find the right people/church that does not follow or make you do all these crazy human ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--OneManArmy+Nov 15 2002, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OneManArmy @ Nov 15 2002, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have faith and follow in christ He will provide you with EVERYTHING YOU NEED NOT WANT!!!
The bible says, as a believer, you should tell everyone about christ. But I don't think you should FORCE your opinions on others. Vice versa is true. If you don't believe in god, fine maybe one day you will learn but until then you have no right to bash ANY religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> christ isn't underneath my car changing the oil.
and
the bible says i can beat my slave to death so long as he doesnt die that same day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If man is created in gods image why are we imperfect? ( I understand adam and eve thing how we become more and more imperfect, two things there. How did they screw up when they were perfect then, and why have scientists proven the brain is becoming more and more advanced through our years of evolution? Shouldn't we be down grading?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally believe "In his image" means having his ability to choose what is right for us. God is allowed to choose what to do, and so are we. In his image. The bible says that we did not know right and wrong, but apparently, Adam and Eve chose to go agaist God. Their choice, and we are imperfect because we choose things other than those which God would have done (WWJD?).
Also, it is possible for generations to get smarter, no-where in the bible does is discredit micro-evolution, or the changing of a species to adjust to it's needs. The dumb people could be dying off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If man is in god's image, and we have free will. Why the hell did he make Adam and Eve stupid enough to talk with a talking snake? Free will, perfect body no brains...bad combo god.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They had no sense of Good and Wrong, not until eating the fruit. Thus, they were easily decieved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If god is suppost to exsist, when was the last time he did a actual miracle. I men he parted the damn sea for the people. He flooded the world for the people, yet now in these times of economic problems and such when we need him just as bad he's gone? Also yes what the kings did to the people (the egyptian...Pharos? How do you spell it?) I think the Holocaust was slightly ummm, worse and much grander scale, I mean god has saved Jewish people before, why not then?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see God working through the people that beleive in him. As for the holocaust, I don't know. You'll have to ask him yourself in 60 years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who's to say the Bible isn't just a well comprised story? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come. All of them turn out true. In Daniel 8... it outlines who will have the greatest kindgoms in the world, from the times of the Babylonians to the Romans, and makes a prediction to another mixed nation (EU?). The bible is self-authenticating, as inspired from God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it for some religions that god is so extreme and egotistical needing 3 to 5 days a WEEK in church? He created us so we could kiss his a$$ 24/7?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For some religions. Are all religions right? No. My church teaches that it is important to come to church, it helps you grow closer to God, but it's not required at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arrogance mostly. That's what it was with me before I came around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is christmas the celebration of Jesus's birthday yet it is in the bible that he was born in spring? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The holiday of Christmas was not established anywhere in the bible, moreover, it was something started by pagans. Birth of Christ must've blended into it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is god perfect and loving and with just vengnece. Yet we are taught to fear his Vengence and not truly expect his love when we do something right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HIs love is unconditional. His judgement is not. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible says that we did not know right and wrong, but apparently, Adam and Eve chose to go agaist God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which is wrong to do. But we didnt know right from wrong. but we were still punished.
At that point in biblical history there was no right or wrong. So therefore how could any action be deemed either or.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, they were easily decieved.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, we were tricked. god knew where were easy prey. and let me say again that he still punished us. ..... also, did god not know that the serpent was going to come and try and deceive us? why didhe not stop him. he told us not to do it. not why we shouldnt do it. satan told us to do it why it would be so good. ..... adam knew he was created in gods image, to be like god. but yet this is the excuse the serpent uses to get them to eat the fruit. either adam and eve were **obscenity** stupid or just downright gullable. and if we were created in gods image does that mean he is stupid and gullable. The bible sure does reflect that thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see God working through the people that beleive in him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a lot of poeple who beleive in him do some really A-hole stuff.
example: Osama KKK
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the bible was written during those times and can be understood in a number of different ways. no to mention the corruption of the church could have changed the bible to these predictions to promote beleif
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HIs love is unconditional. His judgement is not. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and in the bible it tells us not to judge others because it is wrong. is god exempt from right and wrong?
I can't remember how the quote goes
"A king is not someone who can make good followers, but someone who can make kings out of his followers"
but yet in the bible we are lead to beleive otherwise.
Well, I'm Christian. I've accepted Jesus and I (occaisionally) go to church. But, I watch porn, and play some of the most violent video games you could think of. I listen to heavy metal and swear constantly. So, bwah! =D
I would never want to hang out with god, he sounds too moody, maybe he is actually a she. I mean one minute he loves you and you can be forgiven and blah blah blah and then next he smites down your entire village for the sins of others. Not a very level headed guy if you ask me. If he existed I would have one long talk with him. I would make a much better god.
<!--QuoteBegin--Apparition+Nov 15 2002, 04:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apparition @ Nov 15 2002, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I'm Christian. I've accepted Jesus and I (occaisionally) go to church. But, I watch porn, and play some of the most violent video games you could think of. I listen to heavy metal and swear constantly. So, bwah! =D<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that <b>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life</b>. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned</b>, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So bwah!
That's forgiveness right there.
Moebius, I assume you're jsut trying to get a rise out of people, so I wont even respond.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Nov 15 2002, 05:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Nov 15 2002, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WWJD?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for Him, but I can't imagine him hawking WWJD merchandise.
Just kidding there, really. If a bracelet gets someone to live rightly, then so be it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, it is possible for generations to get smarter, no-where in the bible does is discredit micro-evolution, or the changing of a species to adjust to it's needs. The dumb people could be dying off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Bible doesn't discredit macro-evolution, either. The Bible merely states,
"Then God said, 'Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the firmament of the heavens.'" -- Genesis 1:20, KJV
There's nothign to say that the creatures look like anything we see today, or even multi-cellular. We share 99.98% of our DNA with chimpanzees and nearly 90% of our DNA with mosquitoes. Look around, folks, everything you see alive today is the combination of billions of years of successful organic molecules. That does NOT, however, mean that we came from monkeys.
I have yet to meet an evolutionist to believe that, but I have met several people opposed to evolution who believe we believe that. And sometimes, I wish they would hear our side of the story.
And dumb people, sadly, are not dying off. A person with an education is far less likely to have children than someone without an education. Especially in overpopulated areas, an increase in available education shows a dramatic decline in population growth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come. All of them turn out true. In Daniel 8... it outlines who will have the greatest kindgoms in the world, from the times of the Babylonians to the Romans, and makes a prediction to another mixed nation (EU?). The bible is self-authenticating, as inspired from God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was also prophecized that the Messiah would hail from the line of David. It was shown true in Matthew and Luke. But both of the genealogies differed dramatically. Few of the names matched, and there was even a different number of geneartions between David and Jesus. Matthew listed twenty-eight generations, and Luke forty-three. And both traced the lineage from David to Jesus's father, Joseph, rather than his mother, Mary. Which contradicts with the dogmatic edict of the virgin birth (Poe Pius IX, 1852).
My point is, it seems both Matthew and Luke are trying to make the facts fit the story after the fact. In chemistry lab we call that "cooking the data". Why do they not provide references, so that the reader may confirm the lineage, I ask? Because the book is infallible? I love science so because it allows no one immunity from scrutiny. A Swiss patent clerk showed that the revered Newton was wrong in extreme circumstances. Someday you might prove Einstein wrong. No one is ever infallible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arrogance mostly. That's what it was with me before I came around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or cynicism, pessimism, realism. If it is possible, however remotely, that self-replicating organic molecules can form in the right possibilities, and then grow, replicate, and mutate/evolve in a closed system like our planet, there ARE an awfully lot of planets out there, and it was bound to happen sooner or later....
Then again, there was a beginnning...
-Ryan!
"I have nothing new to teach the world. Truth and Non-violence are as old as the hills. All I have done is to try experiments in both on as vast a scale as I could." -- Mahatma Ghandi
If you do not believe that humans evolved from apes you must be blind. Just look at fossils we have found in Africa, if you lined them up one after another you can go from ape to human little by little. And here is a news flash, we arent the only sentient species to ever walk the Earth. Neanderthals have no connecting ties to humans, in other words they are unrelated to humans in the path of evolution, and they were sentient beings. Gods mistakes perhaps? How do they fit into Adam and Eve?
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Nov 15 2002, 10:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Nov 15 2002, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Apparition+Nov 15 2002, 04:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apparition @ Nov 15 2002, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I'm Christian. I've accepted Jesus and I (occaisionally) go to church. But, I watch porn, and play some of the most violent video games you could think of. I listen to heavy metal and swear constantly. So, bwah! =D<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that <b>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life</b>. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned</b>, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So bwah!
That's forgiveness right there.
Moebius, I assume you're jsut trying to get a rise out of people, so I wont even respond.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems to me that christians only beleive the parts of the bible that apeal to them. This is all you have demonstrated to me thus far. I am growing extremely wary of my now onesided conversation, and feel that this topic is just about expired of most intelligent arguments.
Comments
Is that 10 letter word that means that 3 letter word, a swear word you didnt account for?
Understand that I question God not because I am anti-religious, but because I hope to understand Him better through skeptical analysis of the world around me.
-Ryan!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, Ice Wolf, thanks.
Next,
What if he is both able and willing, but chooses to allow his creations to have free will?
If there were no free will, there would be no evil, Adam and Eve could not have eaten the apple, the commandments would have been un-neccisary.
However, we were created in his image, to fulfill our own choices. The commandment reads, : "Thou Shalt not Kill", not, "Thou shalt not be tempted to kill."
If we could not indulge temptation, then there would be no temptation in the first place.
As for the tales of old testement slaughters... This is something I have trouble with as well as you guys. However, I choose to believe that the compassion that God showed when he offered to sacrifice his son for the eternal life of his imperfect creations, well overshowes any harsh judgement that he could have delt out during OT times. Not only that, but the bible says in Mark 2 that "New wine cannot be placed in old wineskins.", Old covenant judgement cannot be applied to new covenant lessons on life.
But perhaps I was reacting in the wrong sense to his quote. I was reacting to his allogation that the bible was written to control the masses. IE: Simon Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke and John were evil men bent on tyrrany.
Oh, BTW, Longtooth...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it interesting that people of faith thank their god(s) for the things they have. Did they not earn them for themselves? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have earned it for myself, but what about my God-given abilities to earn those things? The truth is, without my mind, I am nothing. My grades would not be nearly where they are, and I would not be able to get my own job to buy the things you speak of.
I thank the Lord for the situations I am placed in, and for the people that have been placed in my life, in addition to "m3h m4d r337 sk1llz"
Lets think of it this way. Assume for a second, that God is blameless, perfect, and all that jazz.
We are deserving of his judgement. We've broken his commandments, all of us, and basicly shut him out of our lives. If I made the rules, someone who did that would be dead, and suffering forever.
But instead of destroy us, he offers us a way to reconcile again with us, his son, Jesus Christ. Our sins are payed for through him, and we can be blameless in his eyes once again. Yeah, corny as hell, I know, but bear with me.
Now, if we believe that people are all deserving of his judgement, then what quarrel can we have with him exerting his judgement, which he had every right to do, onto us, his creations, the things that he created to glorify him.
Now the infants... I don't believe are capable of sinning because they can't even comprehend the world around them yet. I believe they were spared his judgement, personally.
If man is created in gods image why are we imperfect? ( I understand adam and eve thing how we become more and more imperfect, two things there. How did they screw up when they were perfect then, and why have scientists proven the brain is becoming more and more advanced through our years of evolution? Shouldn't we be down grading?)
If the angels are perfect and have all wants and need fulfilled and are also created in god's image, what the hell went wrong with Satan? Second what about demons? What happened with them.
If man is in god's image, and we have free will. Why the hell did he make Adam and Eve stupid enough to talk with a talking snake? Free will, perfect body no brains...bad combo god.
If god is suppost to exsist, when was the last time he did a actual miracle. I men he parted the damn sea for the people. He flooded the world for the people, yet now in these times of economic problems and such when we need him just as bad he's gone? Also yes what the kings did to the people (the egyptian...Pharos? How do you spell it?) I think the Holocaust was slightly ummm, worse and much grander scale, I mean god has saved Jewish people before, why not then?
Who's to say the Bible isn't just a well comprised story? We have psychics today that can see the future. Whos to say it wasn't a story written in that form to mess with people? I mean there were insane people back then as well as now you know. I mean did your great great great great great great grandpa know someone who was a part of the bible and that is 100% true family history?
Why is it that god only appears to those that appear insane and with severe mental problems?
Why is it for some religions that god is so extreme and egotistical needing 3 to 5 days a WEEK in church? He created us so we could kiss his a$$ 24/7?
Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?
Why is christmas the celebration of Jesus's birthday yet it is in the bible that he was born in spring?
If you look, god and people work a lot alike. With god, someone makes a mistake, his whole family must suffer. In life, the smart people must take responseability for all the stupid peoples problems, also the stupid people are rewarded for being stupid (Burgler broke into womans house, feel on knife, sued woman for cutting himself on knife won 50k. Woman smoked cigs for 50 years, got cancer then won about 1.3 billion dollars in suet.) Stupid people yet they are rewarded while us smart people are under stress.
Why is god perfect and loving and with just vengnece. Yet we are taught to fear his Vengence and not truly expect his love when we do something right?
Why would there be a hell for us when earth is already so bad?
Why is it that people like the Taliban fight for god yet the winning army fights in his name?
God always sides with the biggest army.
How are we suppost to talk to god when he can't/won't reply with words?
People claim that god saved them, of course they lost their legs and arms and can't move any more but they are sill alive and thank god? I would prefer to be dead.
Why is it that gods gifts you have to work for (such as when the people in the bible needed food or water they had to hunt the food and dig up the water) yet his vengence you don't need to work for?
Many of gods rules are civilized in todays world, explain such.
What about if in the bible they god the names reversed, God is bad and Satan is good? I mean think of it, god wants you to go to church, never involve yourself in violence, don't eat meat, do not have fun sex even with your wife! and does not want you to watch violent movies. Yet Satan allows such? Yes that is suppost to currupt. Yet a smart person is not thrown by violence and such, among that what about if the hell of constraint that is made is the plan of evil to destroy your mortal life?
If we are suppost to enjoy life why doesn't god give us a list of cheap things to do for fun? He want's us not to see violence or play video games OR listen to bad music. I mean ok but give me something cheap to do, unless you'd like to pay for my entertainment.
Why does god give us the want to mate yet not want us to mate with people unless we are married to them?
How old is the bible? I mean they use the word rainbow in the book yet, that word did not exsist in english for a good many years after the bible was finished, second the original english version (you know tho not art sorta stuff) Does have the exact match of english which as we know cannot be.
If the bible says that the bible is complete, how come religions like JW's keep getting more and more 'material' on the bible?
This is just a small sample of things I have pondered, I have better questions which I have brought up with class mates in school. I am not proud to say this but they have chosen to become agnostic because of me, not a good thing but it has happend. Think this over before you comment on it.
it's ok for me
If there were no free will, there would be no evil, Adam and Eve could not have eaten the apple, the commandments would have been un-neccisary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the deal with that?
God
"Here is a paradise with everything you could possibly want, but whatever you do don't eat the fruit from this tree."
Adam
"What, you don't trust me?"
God
"No, I do Adam; but you see. I know everything. So therefore, I already know if you are going to eat from this tree or not."
Adam
"Then why even put it there in the first place?"
God
"........"
God
"I have no **obscenity** idea. Your right Adam, this is utterly rediculous. Let's go get high on life."
Adam
"God, your such a joker."
hahahaha, he sure is. I'm so glad the bible makes these things so clear for me. God loves me so much and yet he sure is oretty abscure oin the details.
Infants are dinners because ALL of us are born into sin for what adam did. Children are sinners becasue they are selfish gluttons. All they do Is take and want and cry.
This whole "evil-games" is just hype garbage Its human works, which should not be trusted. If you know gods word then you will understand what is to be done in each situation in life. Games are fiction, you as a moral intelligent human should be able to know its fiction and nothing more.
If you have faith and follow in christ He will provide you with EVERYTHING YOU NEED NOT WANT!!!
The bible says, as a believer, you should tell everyone about christ. But I don't think you should FORCE your opinions on others. Vice versa is true. If you don't believe in god, fine maybe one day you will learn but until then you have no right to bash ANY religion.
To many human works have skewed what the bible says. If you believeyou are a sinner and Christ Died for our sins and he is our savior you will go to heaven. Now depending on what you do during your life will determine how you get judged once you get there.
anyways that got long... If you can not play a video game without it tempting you to break one of gods laws (killing, stealing, worshiping satan whatever then you've got other issues to work out that go well beyond videogames....
ugh now that I'm done sounding like a sunday school teacher back to killing some marines... hehe
oh and just as a side note I think humans have corrupted what organized religion used to be. Organized religion is not bad if you cna find the right people/church that does not follow or make you do all these crazy human ideas.
so yes I am a Christian AND a gamer.
The bible says, as a believer, you should tell everyone about christ. But I don't think you should FORCE your opinions on others. Vice versa is true. If you don't believe in god, fine maybe one day you will learn but until then you have no right to bash ANY religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
christ isn't underneath my car changing the oil.
and
the bible says i can beat my slave to death so long as he doesnt die that same day.
I personally believe "In his image" means having his ability to choose what is right for us. God is allowed to choose what to do, and so are we. In his image. The bible says that we did not know right and wrong, but apparently, Adam and Eve chose to go agaist God. Their choice, and we are imperfect because we choose things other than those which God would have done (WWJD?).
Also, it is possible for generations to get smarter, no-where in the bible does is discredit micro-evolution, or the changing of a species to adjust to it's needs. The dumb people could be dying off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If man is in god's image, and we have free will. Why the hell did he make Adam and Eve stupid enough to talk with a talking snake? Free will, perfect body no brains...bad combo god.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They had no sense of Good and Wrong, not until eating the fruit. Thus, they were easily decieved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If god is suppost to exsist, when was the last time he did a actual miracle. I men he parted the damn sea for the people. He flooded the world for the people, yet now in these times of economic problems and such when we need him just as bad he's gone? Also yes what the kings did to the people (the egyptian...Pharos? How do you spell it?) I think the Holocaust was slightly ummm, worse and much grander scale, I mean god has saved Jewish people before, why not then?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see God working through the people that beleive in him. As for the holocaust, I don't know. You'll have to ask him yourself in 60 years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who's to say the Bible isn't just a well comprised story? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come. All of them turn out true. In Daniel 8... it outlines who will have the greatest kindgoms in the world, from the times of the Babylonians to the Romans, and makes a prediction to another mixed nation (EU?). The bible is self-authenticating, as inspired from God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it for some religions that god is so extreme and egotistical needing 3 to 5 days a WEEK in church? He created us so we could kiss his a$$ 24/7?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For some religions. Are all religions right? No.
My church teaches that it is important to come to church, it helps you grow closer to God, but it's not required at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arrogance mostly. That's what it was with me before I came around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is christmas the celebration of Jesus's birthday yet it is in the bible that he was born in spring?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The holiday of Christmas was not established anywhere in the bible, moreover, it was something started by pagans. Birth of Christ must've blended into it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is god perfect and loving and with just vengnece. Yet we are taught to fear his Vengence and not truly expect his love when we do something right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HIs love is unconditional. His judgement is not. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people.
which is wrong to do. But we didnt know right from wrong. but we were still punished.
At that point in biblical history there was no right or wrong. So therefore how could any action be deemed either or.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, they were easily decieved.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, we were tricked. god knew where were easy prey. and let me say again that he still punished us.
.....
also, did god not know that the serpent was going to come and try and deceive us? why didhe not stop him. he told us not to do it. not why we shouldnt do it. satan told us to do it why it would be so good.
.....
adam knew he was created in gods image, to be like god. but yet this is the excuse the serpent uses to get them to eat the fruit. either adam and eve were **obscenity** stupid or just downright gullable. and if we were created in gods image does that mean he is stupid and gullable. The bible sure does reflect that thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see God working through the people that beleive in him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a lot of poeple who beleive in him do some really A-hole stuff.
example:
Osama
KKK
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the bible was written during those times and can be understood in a number of different ways. no to mention the corruption of the church could have changed the bible to these predictions to promote beleif
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HIs love is unconditional. His judgement is not. Maybe you're just talking to the wrong people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and in the bible it tells us not to judge others because it is wrong. is god exempt from right and wrong?
I can't remember how the quote goes
"A king is not someone who can make good followers, but someone who can make kings out of his followers"
but yet in the bible we are lead to beleive otherwise.
::sheesh, I'm exhausted::
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that <b>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life</b>.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned</b>, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So bwah!
That's forgiveness right there.
Moebius, I assume you're jsut trying to get a rise out of people, so I wont even respond.
Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for Him, but I can't imagine him hawking WWJD merchandise.
Just kidding there, really. If a bracelet gets someone to live rightly, then so be it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, it is possible for generations to get smarter, no-where in the bible does is discredit micro-evolution, or the changing of a species to adjust to it's needs. The dumb people could be dying off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Bible doesn't discredit macro-evolution, either. The Bible merely states,
"Then God said, 'Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the firmament of the heavens.'"
-- Genesis 1:20, KJV
There's nothign to say that the creatures look like anything we see today, or even multi-cellular. We share 99.98% of our DNA with chimpanzees and nearly 90% of our DNA with mosquitoes. Look around, folks, everything you see alive today is the combination of billions of years of successful organic molecules. That does NOT, however, mean that we came from monkeys.
I have yet to meet an evolutionist to believe that, but I have met several people opposed to evolution who believe we believe that. And sometimes, I wish they would hear our side of the story.
And dumb people, sadly, are not dying off. A person with an education is far less likely to have children than someone without an education. Especially in overpopulated areas, an increase in available education shows a dramatic decline in population growth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Prophecy. In the Bible, for instance, there are about 300 predictions of who the Messiah will hail from, and when he will come. All of them turn out true. In Daniel 8... it outlines who will have the greatest kindgoms in the world, from the times of the Babylonians to the Romans, and makes a prediction to another mixed nation (EU?). The bible is self-authenticating, as inspired from God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was also prophecized that the Messiah would hail from the line of David. It was shown true in Matthew and Luke. But both of the genealogies differed dramatically. Few of the names matched, and there was even a different number of geneartions between David and Jesus. Matthew listed twenty-eight generations, and Luke forty-three. And both traced the lineage from David to Jesus's father, Joseph, rather than his mother, Mary. Which contradicts with the dogmatic edict of the virgin birth (Poe Pius IX, 1852).
My point is, it seems both Matthew and Luke are trying to make the facts fit the story after the fact. In chemistry lab we call that "cooking the data". Why do they not provide references, so that the reader may confirm the lineage, I ask? Because the book is infallible? I love science so because it allows no one immunity from scrutiny. A Swiss patent clerk showed that the revered Newton was wrong in extreme circumstances. Someday you might prove Einstein wrong. No one is ever infallible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that the most intelligent people don't usually believe in god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arrogance mostly. That's what it was with me before I came around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or cynicism, pessimism, realism. If it is possible, however remotely, that self-replicating organic molecules can form in the right possibilities, and then grow, replicate, and mutate/evolve in a closed system like our planet, there ARE an awfully lot of planets out there, and it was bound to happen sooner or later....
Then again, there was a beginnning...
-Ryan!
"I have nothing new to teach the world. Truth and Non-violence are as old as the hills. All I have done is to try experiments in both on as vast a scale as I could."
-- Mahatma Ghandi
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that <b>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life</b>.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned</b>, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So bwah!
That's forgiveness right there.
Moebius, I assume you're jsut trying to get a rise out of people, so I wont even respond.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to me that christians only beleive the parts of the bible that apeal to them. This is all you have demonstrated to me thus far. I am growing extremely wary of my now onesided conversation, and feel that this topic is just about expired of most intelligent arguments.