zerwalter, my problem is with those who ARE good and have played for a substantial period of time, i know that there are people that are new and don’t understand the complexities of the Alien game, but come on, people in the best Aus clans Res ****ing and Fading EVERY game is just not on, that is what is dragging NS classic's game quality down. Those people should be at least doing the best to help the team and try to get Res and secure hive's... not fade and Onos each and every game they can.
Personally, I feel as if when I play on a pub that my without my skill, my team isn't going to have a chance. I also usually just go do my own thing because I only use pubs for practice. I see that this is basically what you are wanting to see less of. I shall endeavor to change my behavior <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->! Hopefully more will follow suit.
I also offer my apologies for acting as I do and I hope I haven't ruined any of your games. Pubs need teamwork too. I guess I shouldn't just save it for the scrims.
<!--QuoteBegin-KandyManAusns+Jan 7 2005, 11:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KandyManAusns @ Jan 7 2005, 11:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> zerwalter, my problem is with those who ARE good and have played for a substantial period of time, i know that there are people that are new and don’t understand the complexities of the Alien game, but come on, people in the best Aus clans Res ****ing and Fading EVERY game is just not on, that is what is dragging NS classic's game quality down. Those people should be at least doing the best to help the team and try to get Res and secure hive's... not fade and Onos each and every game they can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are aware of couse that with high skill teams you NEED one (if not two) five minute fade(s). Who that player will be should be generally agreed on by the whole team, but the five minute fade is still a nessicary edge to shake up marine hive locks, clear out electro res/tfs and pressure res to be spent on upgrades and shotguns that could be spent on RT's and PG's.
The servers that I play the biggest problem is usually resourses are not properly defended at all times, not that there isn't enough of them being layed. Keep in mind, it is never a bad thing for your team to have decided who is responsible for 2nd hive and who is responsible for quick fade right at the begining of the game.
[edit]the point of this whole post of course being to state that sometimes the 'player who fades every game' does so because they are a damn good fade and the team needs one.
Yes, but do you thinks it’s fair never to give other people a go at fade, because if they do then no hive gets built, or res... This is my point. Choose a fade at the start but try and share it around and LISTEN to your team mates, cause all those PROZ out there think there too damn good and MUST fade because they don’t want to lower themselves.
there is a simple trick - when I want to play vanilla I look for a server with three or more palyers with the same clan tag. it's more likely to find teamplay there.
and about comm orders - I find it hard to familiarize myself with ns maps, as they are far more complex than anything I've seen in multiplayer games and I often find myself totally lost when hitting the map button as comm keeps clicking a waypoint and skulks creeping behind every corner. besides, how can I say if I can trust the commander that I've never seen before?
I comm only in small games like 3/3 so I can cope with building/research/orders more easily. I also find it good to tell others that I'm new to comm, so instead of complaining they usually help me by pointing a place for siege or phase etc. oh, by the way - newbie <u>NOT equals</u> noob.
noob comm is what frequently happens on servers with random players. noob spawns closest to the chair so he pops in and when you realize he's abusive it's too late. when a server has decent community and ppl know each other, he usually gets ejected before he spoils a game. so everything depends on where you choose to play.
this is the beauty of combat. ya tell a noob "this is where you hone your skills to play the classic version"
"ok" "now, go kill marines, and you'll get xp. use that xp to get upgrades" "ok" noob goes off, gets owned for about 10 games until he either throws the game away in disgust, or adapts to intellegent-ish skulking. "cool. so i can get carapace, regen, and onos, and get focus!!!1" noob onos's a couple of times, owns it up, think's he's the shiz. goes into classic game. "omg, wheres teh upgradess for kills?!" gets yelled at, told to build something, dosnt wanna go gorge, instead, onos because he's so uber leet. "WTH. why the hell did you onos?" "ill kill all teh rines" dies instantly upon entering rine base. wonders why he couldent get any upgrades.
repeato about 10 times before he finally says "classic is boring and stupidLOL!!!11"
lather rinse repeat for 90% of em. were giving the newbs one rule set for one mode of play and changing it on it's head for another. its just not good. were not teaching them right and it's gotta stop. the community is split over this. we gotta step back and take a look at what can be done to fix this.
i believe alien max lvl's should be lowered. ns classic is usually decided at the second hive. why dont we balance combat to be like a permanent 2nd hive situation. cap aliens at lvl 7 (they get a less lvls to spend on upgrades ) means less carapace/redemp/stomping onos perpetually raping rines. means less use of focus. would require rines to be counter balanced, tho. bah. probably a bad idea. but capping aliens at lvl 7 effectly makes them 2 hive aliens. which is a good idea, imo.
<!--QuoteBegin-KandyManAusns+Jan 8 2005, 12:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KandyManAusns @ Jan 8 2005, 12:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, but do you thinks it’s fair never to give other people a go at fade, because if they do then no hive gets built, or res... This is my point. Choose a fade at the start but try and share it around and LISTEN to your team mates, cause all those PROZ out there think there too damn good and MUST fade because they don’t want to lower themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I understand the reasoning here, and prior to 3.0 I would have agreed with you, but in all honesty, a new fade in an NS game is simply a waste of 50 res that dearly needed to be spent elsewhere. That is the whole point of combat, its a place where any player can gain skills with the high level evolutions with little to no longterm cost or risk. If you want to learn to fade lerk or onos, just do so in combat with the #1 goal of dying as few times as possible.
If you are middle skill and your team doesn't have a fade, ask if you should hive fade or drop chambers, I have seen many many players do this, and often the result is that the team just needs the fade.
Swiftspear, agree fully, but how is my question then, how do we get those noobs to learn to Fade and then what, we have game full of uber leet Fades, and no one gets hive. It looks as if we are just going around in circles. There needs to be some way of FORCING some people not to fade and to get Res/Hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There needs to be some way of FORCING some people not to fade and to get Res/Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the same way as forcing someone to be, say, the team's goalie, in a school soccer game? i think not. if it's obvious no-one is going to drop a hive, dont spend your energy shouting at them; do it yourself.
if the entire alien team consists of kids that are unwilling or incapable of working as a team (yes, you need a team even in pubs) then change the server or go lerk for the rest of the game. and go marines next time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jan 7 2005, 08:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 7 2005, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just avoid combat, and stick to a trusted server. Works for me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen to that.
Seen as I'm from the UK, I tend to stick to Mr Men, Brys NS and a few others which I have known to be around since NS 1.x, or 2.x.
Find a well known, respected public server or clan server in your region. You will become and meet regulars there (although I'm more of a rarity these days) and get some good games going with people you know. You will learn peoples styles as they will learn yours, so you have to try new things out to improve your game. Enjoy the game a bit more!
<!--QuoteBegin-KandyManAusns+Jan 7 2005, 08:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KandyManAusns @ Jan 7 2005, 08:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In 60 games as Aliens I have put hive up 46 times, 17 times its died, got RP’s 12 times and Onos'ed twice. (Alien games that have lasted long enough to be a game.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> TOmekki, stop telling me to go to another server, I’m talking about all servers, and I do put the hive up THATS WHY THIS TOPIC EXISTS. How about you read up a little and don’t just come into the topic and start abusing.
Note: Australia really doesn't have the wide players base, so we dont have the luxury of just choosing a trusting server we have about 15 servers where known people play.
Hey guys, new to the forums here. But been playing ns since the start. Downloading Beta 3 v5 now.
Anyway, first topic ive read, guess i might as well reply.
I do personally like a bit of a mix of NS and CO. I usally play as marines because, the human race just rocks. But in NS i try and get commander because very very rarly can i get a good commander playing. The new people do seem to go for 'power', such as on the aliens team they try and get fades too fast. I cant really think of a way to counter the 'co-lovers' apart from making co slightly more stragical... like counter strike, make the players use tactics. Then when they come to the ns gamplay they wont be too far behind.
The problem is that fade is the only fun class after about the 4 minute mark when marines start getting upgrades. No one wants to temp because thats unfun. In wars, you get to play marines next round so temping is ok, but on pub it just sucks. Its hard to find 4-5 people in a server that want to sit back and build buildings while 2 people get to have all the fun. 1 gorge ftw.
<!--QuoteBegin-KandyManAusns+Jan 8 2005, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KandyManAusns @ Jan 8 2005, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Swiftspear, agree fully, but how is my question then, how do we get those noobs to learn to Fade and then what, we have game full of uber leet Fades, and no one gets hive. It looks as if we are just going around in circles. There needs to be some way of FORCING some people not to fade and to get Res/Hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Me in the post RIGHT above yours+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Me in the post RIGHT above yours)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is the whole point of combat, its a place where any player can gain skills with the high level evolutions with little to no longterm cost or risk. If you want to learn to fade lerk or onos, just do so in combat with the #1 goal of dying as few times as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I prefer to be on the winning team then have high stats...
I don't think that we should even try to force all the players not to go fade, the fact of the matter is a team full of fades will lose the game because they have not spent anywhere near enough res on upgrades and RT's.
Any good player knows you need teamwork to win in NS, so if your team refuses to use teamwork then it sucks to be you when you lose. The devs are under no obligation to force every team to use as much teamwork as possible. Feel free to flame away legitimate res ho's in game, since they are just stealing your res. But keep in mind, not every player who doesn't drop an upgrade chamber or RT first thing is a res ho.
KandyManAusns let me give you some advice. If you're going to play classic on American servers and are intent on being alien you might wanna stick to siege maps. People usually know what they are doing and with the siege setup res **** aren't as annoying.
I am a new guy i wont lie. But alot of people if u ask them sumthin they give a smart comment back and they call u a noob the rest of the game. I was playin last night and a guy owned everyone on our team. Somehow his score was like 40 sumthin kills and 4 deathes! Its people like that that ruin games for new people and kill games. Thats why i stoped playin the first time. now i just avoid those players period with nuthin to ask.
<!--QuoteBegin-KandyManAusns+Jan 8 2005, 06:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KandyManAusns @ Jan 8 2005, 06:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TOmekki, stop telling me to go to another server, I’m talking about all servers, and I do put the hive up THATS WHY THIS TOPIC EXISTS. How about you read up a little and don’t just come into the topic and start abusing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't understand... The reason you have a problem is that you're playing on all servers. You have to understand that you just can't do that and expect a good game. Almost without fail, the type of players you hate also pick servers randomly, which is why the unknown pub servers only have those people in them. Pick a good server and stick with it. That means that once you find a server you like, you put it and maybe one or two others in your favorites and you NEVER look for a game on the Internet tab again. It doesn't have to be in Australia(though 15 sounds like plenty to me, I only play on 2 servers total). Maybe I am missing something. Can you explain to me why you can't find just one good server, and keep going back to it?
<!--QuoteBegin-Billyb0b+Jan 8 2005, 11:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Billyb0b @ Jan 8 2005, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am a new guy i wont lie. But alot of people if u ask them sumthin they give a smart comment back and they call u a noob the rest of the game. I was playin last night and a guy owned everyone on our team. Somehow his score was like 40 sumthin kills and 4 deathes! Its people like that that ruin games for new people and kill games. Thats why i stoped playin the first time. now i just avoid those players period with nuthin to ask.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, this isn't counterstrike... 4:40 ratios are very possible, I know because I have had them before.
This game has a sharp learning curve that all new players will just have to get used to at some point, and when you are good, you will comparitively look VERY good.
Practice basic fighting skills by playing combat if you don't want to put an unnessicary risk to your team, and once you have that together upgrade to NS mode, play marines, and just do what the commander tells you... Once you recognize all the alien structures and the rules of the game make sense feel free to play alien and get a good feeling for all the maps. It won't be more than a few monthes before you are pwning newbs like the best of them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jan 9 2005, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jan 9 2005, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, this isn't counterstrike... 4:40 ratios are very possible, I know because I have had them before. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well, congrats! but wait... I think you meant 40:4? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I saw sth like 99:1 in CS but that guy was pure hax on dust2 24/7 server. still it was somehow fun to see him sniping down players half second after respawn. well... at least for a while. when he reached 150:2 or so i quit <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
One problem I see a lot of new people having is Skulk Bunnyhopping. I support it and all ('cept scritping...different issue tho). The problem is that people simply don't know how to shoot a BHopping skulk. So you have some Vets who own as skulk and the new player tried to do the same. They fail horribly.
As for teamwork: I'm the teams "Female Dog". i am in every game I play. In NS I am the gorge, the welder, the base guarder. In GuildWars I am the monk that does nothing but heal.
The problem here is that people coming from CO_ don't recognize the importance of things. When you say Gorge, they think "There's nothing to heal...I'll go Onos". When they do something stupid (go onos and jump in lava) they don't realize they are hurting the team.
edit: Another thing. Maybe people don't realize that CO_ aliens are stronger than NS_ aliens at the beginning?
<!--QuoteBegin-adi0+Jan 9 2005, 01:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (adi0 @ Jan 9 2005, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jan 9 2005, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jan 9 2005, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, this isn't counterstrike... 4:40 ratios are very possible, I know because I have had them before. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well, congrats! but wait... I think you meant 40:4? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I saw sth like 99:1 in CS but that guy was pure hax on dust2 24/7 server. still it was somehow fun to see him sniping down players half second after respawn. well... at least for a while. when he reached 150:2 or so i quit <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, but I'm not even that good at this game... When I regular lunixmonster my ratio's are almost always negitive, and I can count on two hands players that I personally know who are better than me, and I may be a regular member, but I don't play alot and I probably only know 20-40 players by name who I conciously remember having played with.
The point is, I'm not miraculously good, but even I have had 40:4 ratios in a few of your average pubs.
Your average player in NS just isn't THAT advanced.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Jan 7 2005, 10:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jan 7 2005, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We just need a good training map and a tutorial <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That will not help the majority of players who have never come to ns.com and will never come to ns.com.. They just play the game and don't realize that things are out there.
For someone to mention it in game is insulting, it's like telling someone to RTM.
So the best course is to take a moment of your time between rounds (or ask the person if they are new and if they would like some help) and take the time to help them.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zunni, I think he meant a good training map and tutorial that <b><i>comes</i></b> with NS.
Unless people have drastically matured online I highly doubt relying on helpful players to educate newbies about the game is the most effective way of training the masses... if anything I would consider this wishful thinking at best...
Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether...
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Jan 9 2005, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jan 9 2005, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Jan 7 2005, 10:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jan 7 2005, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We just need a good training map and a tutorial <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That will not help the majority of players who have never come to ns.com and will never come to ns.com.. They just play the game and don't realize that things are out there.
For someone to mention it in game is insulting, it's like telling someone to RTM.
So the best course is to take a moment of your time between rounds (or ask the person if they are new and if they would like some help) and take the time to help them.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zunni, I think he meant a good training map and tutorial that <b><i>comes</i></b> with NS.
Unless people have drastically matured online I highly doubt relying on helpful players to educate newbies about the game is the most effective way of training the masses... if anything I would consider this wishful thinking at best...
Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats why I mention I wasn't insulted by the "hazard couse" in HL1 or the "bootcamp" from OP4. I don't know if Zunni realizes that the Devs might HAVE to make a tutorial map. If you are going to release a full retail game there will be a number of people who haven't played NS1 joining the community. (many people didn't play HL1 despite buying HL2) They will be completely lost without some kind of introduction to the gameplay. Blizzard, Valve, Ravensoft, Westwood, and others have had a map to introduce the gameplay. We just think you might wanna start by developing an NS1 training map and providing it with NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Jan 9 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jan 9 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oww, that was a low blow. You know, it's known that random servers are the pretty much only gaming environment I use to game casually.
Anyway, you are correct in so far that we can not rely on player goodwill to solve the issue, and we are not opposed to training maps and so on. The matter of fact is that the inclusion of the entities needed for them is a surprisingly big time investment, and since the #1 objective is currently to get NS 3.0 <i>done</i>, we could not justify taking it. As for game-aide-manuals (which are arguably not as big, but at least some help), some things have changed since our last assessment of that area (*Glances at NiteOwl.*). Let's see.
Imo one of the main aspects that annoy many players is that a single player can decide the game.
Either by res whoring, beeing a bad/good comm, playing the wrong hive/chamber, completely domination the enemy team or just dieing to the first enemy they see 40 times in a row.
In other games like cs a single bad player means nothing. He dies every round and gives the other team some cash. In ns this very player is either feeding the enemy with xp or res, which can be devastating and he his blocking the spawn queue.
Personally i am a little bite dissapointed by many players attitude towards the game. Especially concerning the "giving and taking" part in co there are the xeno skulks, that dont go web gorge. As well as the super skulks that are lvl 10 after 4 minutes, just to be useless **** soon as rines have teched up. In ns there are the well known res ****, as well as the uber players who think that the whole alien team exists to serve them. And the ignorance regarding unusuall starts. its just nice to be voted out of the cc by same guys u led to victory 3 times in a row only because u tell them to relocate. Placing Sc/Mc first, normally means that a lot of players will start acting rude.
But then there are those great moments: Ordering your team to reloc temp.control, reloc fails, i place an ip in ms and start building it, 2 skulks attack i kill em both and finish the ip. Every rine gives his best and we actually win the game after a hard struggle.
Gorge rushing on ns veil.
Controling a whole map with only 3 Scs.
Saving a hive twice below 3%.
Catknifing 4 skulks in a row.
Knifing an Onos.
8 knife kills and wining after 12 minutes on angst.
Evertime u are angry cause of some "res****" ar "noob" comm just think of the moments that make u sticking to ns and relax.
There are good players out there who play the game with the right attitude. And once in a while if fate is lucky they meet and have a real good game.
Good night and thanks to thv for some really good games <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jan 9 2005, 02:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 9 2005, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Jan 9 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jan 9 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oww, that was a low blow. You know, it's known that random servers are the pretty much only gaming environment I use to game casually.
Anyway, you are correct in so far that we can not rely on player goodwill to solve the issue, and we are not opposed to training maps and so on. The matter of fact is that the inclusion of the entities needed for them is a surprisingly big time investment, and since the #1 objective is currently to get NS 3.0 <i>done</i>, we could not justify taking it. As for game-aide-manuals (which are arguably not as big, but at least some help), some things have changed since our last assessment of that area (*Glances at NiteOwl.*). Let's see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Oh, I didn't mean to zing you Nem...
We have talked before about the development of NS and have had a few good exchanges over ideas, pub issues and some of the general dynamics of NS and the community. I actually remember being quite happy that you were playing a bigger part in the development of NS, our discussion always gave me the idea that we are on the same wavelength regarding teamplay and the future direction of NS. What really had me excited was to finally have a "representative;" someone who has experienced all the little "intricacies" of NS pubbing and their opinion has a little weight with the people who counts.
I do appreciate the answers you gave us regarding a training map, the time it will take to complete and your current plan. Far be it for me to critisize your development plan, being a new group of volunteer Devs taking over the NS duties I'm sure is not quite a simple or quick tranisition especially when you have everyone breathing down your neck for the new BETA, fix many challenging problems and address balancing issues.
Perhaps this thread is a reminder that some sort of in-game tutorial <i><b>is</i></b> important to the community. Come to think of it, as much as we have been vocal about some sort of in-game tutorial maybe it wouldn't be the most efficient thing to produce one and have to redesign it after any major BETA changes.
I would treat this thread as a friendly reminder that something is required... but time should be allowed for this new Dev team to shape NS into something more solid before a full scale assault on an tutorial should be attempted since from what Nem said it would require a large investment of time and entities.
Thanks for the update Nem! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll be keeping my eye on this new Dev Team for sure!
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Jan 9 2005, 07:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Jan 9 2005, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This post is for the people who don't have good comprehension skills.
You will notice that the original poster has <span style='color:red'>"<b>AUS NS</b>"</span> in his name.
It should be obvious why every server he goes to is filled with people who act like they live on an island.
TYFP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell are you talking about man? What because we live on an Island we are of less importance and don’t have the skills possible to play great NS? I would love to play Aus best NS'ers vs. what every country you’re from.
Comments
I also offer my apologies for acting as I do and I hope I haven't ruined any of your games. Pubs need teamwork too. I guess I shouldn't just save it for the scrims.
You are aware of couse that with high skill teams you NEED one (if not two) five minute fade(s). Who that player will be should be generally agreed on by the whole team, but the five minute fade is still a nessicary edge to shake up marine hive locks, clear out electro res/tfs and pressure res to be spent on upgrades and shotguns that could be spent on RT's and PG's.
The servers that I play the biggest problem is usually resourses are not properly defended at all times, not that there isn't enough of them being layed. Keep in mind, it is never a bad thing for your team to have decided who is responsible for 2nd hive and who is responsible for quick fade right at the begining of the game.
[edit]the point of this whole post of course being to state that sometimes the 'player who fades every game' does so because they are a damn good fade and the team needs one.
and about comm orders - I find it hard to familiarize myself with ns maps, as they are far more complex than anything I've seen in multiplayer games and I often find myself totally lost when hitting the map button as comm keeps clicking a waypoint and skulks creeping behind every corner. besides, how can I say if I can trust the commander that I've never seen before?
I comm only in small games like 3/3 so I can cope with building/research/orders more easily. I also find it good to tell others that I'm new to comm, so instead of complaining they usually help me by pointing a place for siege or phase etc. oh, by the way - newbie <u>NOT equals</u> noob.
noob comm is what frequently happens on servers with random players. noob spawns closest to the chair so he pops in and when you realize he's abusive it's too late. when a server has decent community and ppl know each other, he usually gets ejected before he spoils a game. so everything depends on where you choose to play.
"ok"
"now, go kill marines, and you'll get xp. use that xp to get upgrades"
"ok"
noob goes off, gets owned for about 10 games until he either throws the game away in disgust, or adapts to intellegent-ish skulking.
"cool. so i can get carapace, regen, and onos, and get focus!!!1"
noob onos's a couple of times, owns it up, think's he's the shiz. goes into classic game.
"omg, wheres teh upgradess for kills?!"
gets yelled at, told to build something, dosnt wanna go gorge, instead, onos because he's so uber leet.
"WTH. why the hell did you onos?"
"ill kill all teh rines"
dies instantly upon entering rine base. wonders why he couldent get any upgrades.
repeato about 10 times before he finally says "classic is boring and stupidLOL!!!11"
lather rinse repeat for 90% of em. were giving the newbs one rule set for one mode of play and changing it on it's head for another. its just not good. were not teaching them right and it's gotta stop. the community is split over this. we gotta step back and take a look at what can be done to fix this.
i believe alien max lvl's should be lowered. ns classic is usually decided at the second hive. why dont we balance combat to be like a permanent 2nd hive situation. cap aliens at lvl 7 (they get a less lvls to spend on upgrades ) means less carapace/redemp/stomping onos perpetually raping rines. means less use of focus. would require rines to be counter balanced, tho. bah. probably a bad idea. but capping aliens at lvl 7 effectly makes them 2 hive aliens. which is a good idea, imo.
I understand the reasoning here, and prior to 3.0 I would have agreed with you, but in all honesty, a new fade in an NS game is simply a waste of 50 res that dearly needed to be spent elsewhere. That is the whole point of combat, its a place where any player can gain skills with the high level evolutions with little to no longterm cost or risk. If you want to learn to fade lerk or onos, just do so in combat with the #1 goal of dying as few times as possible.
If you are middle skill and your team doesn't have a fade, ask if you should hive fade or drop chambers, I have seen many many players do this, and often the result is that the team just needs the fade.
the same way as forcing someone to be, say, the team's goalie, in a school soccer game? i think not. if it's obvious no-one is going to drop a hive, dont spend your energy shouting at them; do it yourself.
if the entire alien team consists of kids that are unwilling or incapable of working as a team (yes, you need a team even in pubs) then change the server or go lerk for the rest of the game. and go marines next time.
Amen to that.
Seen as I'm from the UK, I tend to stick to Mr Men, Brys NS and a few others which I have known to be around since NS 1.x, or 2.x.
Find a well known, respected public server or clan server in your region. You will become and meet regulars there (although I'm more of a rarity these days) and get some good games going with people you know. You will learn peoples styles as they will learn yours, so you have to try new things out to improve your game. Enjoy the game a bit more!
In 60 games as Aliens I have put hive up 46 times, 17 times its died, got RP’s 12 times and Onos'ed twice. (Alien games that have lasted long enough to be a game.)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TOmekki, stop telling me to go to another server, I’m talking about all servers, and I do put the hive up THATS WHY THIS TOPIC EXISTS. How about you read up a little and don’t just come into the topic and start abusing.
Note: Australia really doesn't have the wide players base, so we dont have the luxury of just choosing a trusting server we have about 15 servers where known people play.
Anyway, first topic ive read, guess i might as well reply.
I do personally like a bit of a mix of NS and CO. I usally play as marines because, the human race just rocks. But in NS i try and get commander because very very rarly can i get a good commander playing. The new people do seem to go for 'power', such as on the aliens team they try and get fades too fast. I cant really think of a way to counter the 'co-lovers' apart from making co slightly more stragical... like counter strike, make the players use tactics. Then when they come to the ns gamplay they wont be too far behind.
My two cents
<!--QuoteBegin-Me in the post RIGHT above yours+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Me in the post RIGHT above yours)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is the whole point of combat, its a place where any player can gain skills with the high level evolutions with little to no longterm cost or risk. If you want to learn to fade lerk or onos, just do so in combat with the #1 goal of dying as few times as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I prefer to be on the winning team then have high stats...
I don't think that we should even try to force all the players not to go fade, the fact of the matter is a team full of fades will lose the game because they have not spent anywhere near enough res on upgrades and RT's.
Any good player knows you need teamwork to win in NS, so if your team refuses to use teamwork then it sucks to be you when you lose. The devs are under no obligation to force every team to use as much teamwork as possible. Feel free to flame away legitimate res ho's in game, since they are just stealing your res. But keep in mind, not every player who doesn't drop an upgrade chamber or RT first thing is a res ho.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You don't understand... The reason you have a problem is that you're playing on all servers. You have to understand that you just can't do that and expect a good game. Almost without fail, the type of players you hate also pick servers randomly, which is why the unknown pub servers only have those people in them. Pick a good server and stick with it. That means that once you find a server you like, you put it and maybe one or two others in your favorites and you NEVER look for a game on the Internet tab again. It doesn't have to be in Australia(though 15 sounds like plenty to me, I only play on 2 servers total). Maybe I am missing something. Can you explain to me why you can't find just one good server, and keep going back to it?
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, this isn't counterstrike... 4:40 ratios are very possible, I know because I have had them before.
This game has a sharp learning curve that all new players will just have to get used to at some point, and when you are good, you will comparitively look VERY good.
Practice basic fighting skills by playing combat if you don't want to put an unnessicary risk to your team, and once you have that together upgrade to NS mode, play marines, and just do what the commander tells you... Once you recognize all the alien structures and the rules of the game make sense feel free to play alien and get a good feeling for all the maps. It won't be more than a few monthes before you are pwning newbs like the best of them.
well, congrats! but wait... I think you meant 40:4? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I saw sth like 99:1 in CS but that guy was pure hax on dust2 24/7 server. still it was somehow fun to see him sniping down players half second after respawn. well... at least for a while. when he reached 150:2 or so i quit <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for teamwork: I'm the teams "Female Dog". i am in every game I play. In NS I am the gorge, the welder, the base guarder. In GuildWars I am the monk that does nothing but heal.
The problem here is that people coming from CO_ don't recognize the importance of things. When you say Gorge, they think "There's nothing to heal...I'll go Onos". When they do something stupid (go onos and jump in lava) they don't realize they are hurting the team.
edit: Another thing. Maybe people don't realize that CO_ aliens are stronger than NS_ aliens at the beginning?
well, congrats! but wait... I think you meant 40:4? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I saw sth like 99:1 in CS but that guy was pure hax on dust2 24/7 server. still it was somehow fun to see him sniping down players half second after respawn. well... at least for a while. when he reached 150:2 or so i quit <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya, but I'm not even that good at this game... When I regular lunixmonster my ratio's are almost always negitive, and I can count on two hands players that I personally know who are better than me, and I may be a regular member, but I don't play alot and I probably only know 20-40 players by name who I conciously remember having played with.
The point is, I'm not miraculously good, but even I have had 40:4 ratios in a few of your average pubs.
Your average player in NS just isn't THAT advanced.
That will not help the majority of players who have never come to ns.com and will never come to ns.com.. They just play the game and don't realize that things are out there.
For someone to mention it in game is insulting, it's like telling someone to RTM.
So the best course is to take a moment of your time between rounds (or ask the person if they are new and if they would like some help) and take the time to help them.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zunni, I think he meant a good training map and tutorial that <b><i>comes</i></b> with NS.
Unless people have drastically matured online I highly doubt relying on helpful players to educate newbies about the game is the most effective way of training the masses... if anything I would consider this wishful thinking at best...
Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether...
That will not help the majority of players who have never come to ns.com and will never come to ns.com.. They just play the game and don't realize that things are out there.
For someone to mention it in game is insulting, it's like telling someone to RTM.
So the best course is to take a moment of your time between rounds (or ask the person if they are new and if they would like some help) and take the time to help them.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zunni, I think he meant a good training map and tutorial that <b><i>comes</i></b> with NS.
Unless people have drastically matured online I highly doubt relying on helpful players to educate newbies about the game is the most effective way of training the masses... if anything I would consider this wishful thinking at best...
Sometimes I get the impression that the Devs are so disconnected with the <i><b>general pubbing community</b></i> they don't have a firm grasp on exactly how their game is being experienced outside the circle of vets, PTs, and forum goers who actively contribute feedback... but that is another thing altogether... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats why I mention I wasn't insulted by the "hazard couse" in HL1 or the "bootcamp" from OP4. I don't know if Zunni realizes that the Devs might HAVE to make a tutorial map. If you are going to release a full retail game there will be a number of people who haven't played NS1 joining the community. (many people didn't play HL1 despite buying HL2) They will be completely lost without some kind of introduction to the gameplay. Blizzard, Valve, Ravensoft, Westwood, and others have had a map to introduce the gameplay. We just think you might wanna start by developing an NS1 training map and providing it with NS.
Oww, that was a low blow. You know, it's known that random servers are the pretty much only gaming environment I use to game casually.
Anyway, you are correct in so far that we can not rely on player goodwill to solve the issue, and we are not opposed to training maps and so on. The matter of fact is that the inclusion of the entities needed for them is a surprisingly big time investment, and since the #1 objective is currently to get NS 3.0 <i>done</i>, we could not justify taking it.
As for game-aide-manuals (which are arguably not as big, but at least some help), some things have changed since our last assessment of that area (*Glances at NiteOwl.*). Let's see.
Either by res whoring, beeing a bad/good comm, playing the wrong hive/chamber, completely domination the enemy team or just dieing to the first enemy they see 40 times in a row.
In other games like cs a single bad player means nothing. He dies every round and gives the other team some cash. In ns this very player is either feeding the enemy with xp or res, which can be devastating and he his blocking the spawn queue.
Personally i am a little bite dissapointed by many players attitude towards the game. Especially concerning the "giving and taking" part in co there are the xeno skulks, that dont go web gorge. As well as the super skulks that are lvl 10 after 4 minutes, just to be useless **** soon as rines have teched up. In ns there are the well known res ****, as well as the uber players who think that the whole alien team exists to serve them. And the ignorance regarding unusuall starts. its just nice to be voted out of the cc by same guys u led to victory 3 times in a row only because u tell them to relocate. Placing Sc/Mc first, normally means that a lot of players will start acting rude.
But then there are those great moments:
Ordering your team to reloc temp.control, reloc fails, i place an ip in ms and start building it, 2 skulks attack i kill em both and finish the ip. Every rine gives his best and we actually win the game after a hard struggle.
Gorge rushing on ns veil.
Controling a whole map with only 3 Scs.
Saving a hive twice below 3%.
Catknifing 4 skulks in a row.
Knifing an Onos.
8 knife kills and wining after 12 minutes on angst.
Evertime u are angry cause of some "res****" ar "noob" comm just think of the moments that make u sticking to ns and relax.
There are good players out there who play the game with the right attitude. And once in a while if fate is lucky they meet and have a real good game.
Good night and thanks to thv for some really good games <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You will notice that the original poster has <span style='color:red'>"<b>AUS NS</b>"</span> in his name.
It should be obvious why every server he goes to is filled with people who act like they live on an island.
TYFP.
Oww, that was a low blow. You know, it's known that random servers are the pretty much only gaming environment I use to game casually.
Anyway, you are correct in so far that we can not rely on player goodwill to solve the issue, and we are not opposed to training maps and so on. The matter of fact is that the inclusion of the entities needed for them is a surprisingly big time investment, and since the #1 objective is currently to get NS 3.0 <i>done</i>, we could not justify taking it.
As for game-aide-manuals (which are arguably not as big, but at least some help), some things have changed since our last assessment of that area (*Glances at NiteOwl.*). Let's see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Oh, I didn't mean to zing you Nem...
We have talked before about the development of NS and have had a few good exchanges over ideas, pub issues and some of the general dynamics of NS and the community. I actually remember being quite happy that you were playing a bigger part in the development of NS, our discussion always gave me the idea that we are on the same wavelength regarding teamplay and the future direction of NS. What really had me excited was to finally have a "representative;" someone who has experienced all the little "intricacies" of NS pubbing and their opinion has a little weight with the people who counts.
I do appreciate the answers you gave us regarding a training map, the time it will take to complete and your current plan. Far be it for me to critisize your development plan, being a new group of volunteer Devs taking over the NS duties I'm sure is not quite a simple or quick tranisition especially when you have everyone breathing down your neck for the new BETA, fix many challenging problems and address balancing issues.
Perhaps this thread is a reminder that some sort of in-game tutorial <i><b>is</i></b> important to the community. Come to think of it, as much as we have been vocal about some sort of in-game tutorial maybe it wouldn't be the most efficient thing to produce one and have to redesign it after any major BETA changes.
I would treat this thread as a friendly reminder that something is required... but time should be allowed for this new Dev team to shape NS into something more solid before a full scale assault on an tutorial should be attempted since from what Nem said it would require a large investment of time and entities.
Thanks for the update Nem! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll be keeping my eye on this new Dev Team for sure!
You will notice that the original poster has <span style='color:red'>"<b>AUS NS</b>"</span> in his name.
It should be obvious why every server he goes to is filled with people who act like they live on an island.
TYFP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell are you talking about man? What because we live on an Island we are of less importance and don’t have the skills possible to play great NS? I would love to play Aus best NS'ers vs. what every country you’re from.
And Aus NS? WTH.