moultano: Agreed but do remember that everyone working on NS does so for free and they have many other responsibilites in addition to NS. Yes it seems so simple to just send a conformation email but things like that are often over looked. I would suggest not mailing the devs but again go through the PT leads or Zunni since they are usually more able to respond than some of the others on the team.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 2 2005, 01:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 2 2005, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> moultano: Agreed but do remember that everyone working on NS does so for free and they have many other responsibilites in addition to NS. Yes it seems so simple to just send a conformation email but things like that are often over looked. I would suggest not mailing the devs but again go through the PT leads or Zunni since they are usually more able to respond than some of the others on the team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if he has that much trouble writing a simple confirmation letter back he shuldnt be in that position. obviously he cant reply to as he said "500 a week" but maps like Shiva and Source r clearly official quality, and my training map wuld be a massive thing to help new players get into the game so i fail to see why he cant send a single PM.
ur right tho Zunni is much more responsive but then he doesnt hav any say over maps, he'll just say u'll hav to wait for Tyr, likewise the playtesters r there more for bugspotting r they not?
<!--QuoteBegin-Meat Popsicle+Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Meat Popsicle @ Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... but maps like Shiva and Source r clearly official quality, and my training map wuld be a massive thing to help new players get into the game ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to anger people with this post but I feel that I must respond. I believe that decision is up to the dev team. Not you, not me, not the forum goers.
Tyr can not be there every second that you need to send him a PM and by nagging him you're probably just assuring that he won't get back to you. Take a step back, take a nice big breath, and stop nagging him. If you're that concerned, try messaging one of the PT leads or Zunni and I'm sure they will pass the message along to whoever it pertains to.
<!--QuoteBegin-Meat Popsicle+Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Meat Popsicle @ Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the playtesters r there more for bugspotting r they not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, a major part of our job is looking for bugs, but I didn't say to PM the playtesters, I said PM the playtest leads. They are the ones who organize the playtests.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
There seems to be a desire for secrecy within the dev team that I feel is misguided. For instance, I wanted to know whether there was going to be another client release after 3.0 that ns_shiva could possibly be included in. I realise this type of thing is sensitive news, but when what your dealing with is the ability of your content creators to do their jobs I don't think it helps to be vague about it. The attitude seems to be that map makers should make their maps purely for the enjoyment of making them, and that official inclusion will come on its own if its coming. Anyone who maps certainly enjoys it, but mappers have to budget their time like anyone else, and they need to have enough information to know if it is worth their while in the long run to put additional polish into a map in the midst of schoolwork, jobs, and competing projects. This applies to the rest of the cycle as well. Mappers ought to be able to find out what their chances are. We're mature enough to take it, and its more frustrating to have someone beat around the bush. Remember, Its ok to say you don't have time! Even that gives us information to make decisions!
The other policy I disagree with is the desire to keep potential official maps under wraps completely prior to a client release. I can understand wanting the new maps in a major release to be a surprise. However, average players don't play custom maps much, and hardcore players don't need the surprise to keep them interested in the game. Particularly in the case in which a map isn't going to be officially included, or in some cases, isn't even being playtested, it doesn't make sense to prevent the mapper from releasing it to the public. They could be getting valuable balance feedback to improve the map in the meantime, especially if playtesting it internally isn't a priority.
I hope this is helpful feedback on the process. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm going to anger people with this post but I feel that I must respond. I believe that decision is up to the dev team. Not you, not me, not the forum goers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree the dev <b>"team"</b> shuld be responsible for choosing the game content
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tyr can not be there every second that you need to send him a PM and by nagging him you're probably just assuring that he won't get back to you. Take a step back, take a nice big breath, and stop nagging him. If you're that concerned, try messaging one of the PT leads or Zunni and I'm sure they will pass the message along to whoever it pertains to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 3 months ago i submitted ns_training, a map which has hardly been enjoyable to make and something that i get very little back in return from as its not something that i can play on a server with my friends (the whole reason i got into mapping). i did it cos it needed doing for the mod (combat is hardly teaching ppl to play ns) and no-one else seemed to want to do it (with the exception of align and keef but that wasnt official standard unfortunately)..
anyway 3 months and i hav heard <u>absolutely nothing</u> from Tyr, and i havnt nagged him, instead i went away and hav greatly improved and polished it, was that not the right attitude ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, a major part of our job is looking for bugs, but I didn't say to PM the playtesters, I said PM the playtest leads. They are the ones who organize the playtests. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i didnt even know there were a group of "official" playtesters, if i send u the map, u can pass it on to them if u like.
i realise by posting all of this im hardly getting on Tyr's good side but mappers arent allowed to publically release their maps if theres a chance of them going official, but if the mapper is never contacted, the map is doomed to spend its life sat in a zip file, simple as that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
perhapps someone shuld point this thread out to the devs, something needs to be done
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Mar 2 2005, 09:14 PM) QUOTE (Lt Realness @ Mar 2 2005, 10:39 AM) I don't get why they make this map official and why they don't make ns_source official. ns_source looks very similar to this map and TyrNemesis didn't even reply Lt.Gravitys request yet for about 3 weeks.
IMO NS_sourse, while extreamly gorgeous, probably still needs a bit more playtesting. The archetexture is far from NS standard, and it strikes me as the kind of map that would need to be well playtested several times before a perfect balance can be achieved.
Honestly I would love to see it official though.
what's wrong with the architecture??
the map represents what it is meant to be. or is sb afraid of new things??
soure is better than ayumi or bast.. and bast has really been fixed to its own death and I think I'm not the only one in here who thinks like that about bast.
-edit- we did alota playtests and the gameplay etc. is excellent! =)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought this might be interesting for you Gravity
gameplay is exelent? should I feel guilty about the changes I made/will made?
the creator cant give objective statements, thats for shure. but the map seemed to me to be very beginner friendly. no too much vents to care for, clearly layout and a decent gameplay speed. but the changes may "fix" this. the basic layout stays the same except some fixes. but this fixes will slightly increase the speed the map is played. and the of cause the level of detail will increase in some areas.
hopefully no "fix to death" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I just walked around in the build linked in your sig and have a few technical suggestions.
With your water, Try to use several water brushes and get it to mold to the room instead of one large block to cover the entire room. It makes it look better and cause less glitches in commander mode and just in general makes rendering easier.
Also, next release, I want you to save a copy of your map and delete all the water brushes/entites, and run just CSG and BSP on it, then build your minimap with the nowater compile. There is a lot of water in this map which causes the minimap to get rather distorted. Compiling a build without the water should make the minimap easier to navigate by.
minimap: my freetime is expensive. next beta will get the changed minimap. and in addition all locations will be named on it. thats something, isnt it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
water: no. because it doesnt work. there is no possibility to create a closed water volume out of more than 1 brush, I tried everything. seems to be a "clientside"-problem <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 3 2005, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 3 2005, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could use several func_water. When I checked, you were at just a bit under 200 ents. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> under 200? thought is was far abouve 250 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
severall func_water result in the problem, that you can make out where the water brushes touch each other. 1. the surface waves are rendered differently 2. you will be able to notice it when swimming through it. maybe I will add a kind of border when I decide to use separated brushes.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89326&view=findpost&p=1402558' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....dpost&p=1402558</a> Very relevent to NS sourse, and if we are discussing it lt.real, I would prefer to continue here rather then on that thread.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There really needs to be better dev communication with the mappers. When a mapper asks a question like "Has my map been playtested at all?" they ought to get an accurate response. If they ask a question like "When do you expect to be considering new maps for inclusion?" they ought to get a response. If they ask a question like "When can I expect to hear about the prospects for my map?" they ought to get a response. This ought to be the baseline of politeness just out of respect for the mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I don't disagree, I think you are looking at this from an outside perspective..
it's never easy to project an accurate timeline or even be able to say "well we'll be adding maps next release" because we often don't know until we get into the process..
To address each of your questions individually:
"Has my map been playtested at all?" <- good question, but what does "playtested" mean, by Tyr? by the PT's?, or others? See the issue is a single PT is never enough.. Repeated playtests are needed, and if you receive back a "yes" does that truly tell you anything other than someone loaded it up once? Often times details can't be shared necessarily because of things we may be working on..
"When do you expect to be considering new maps for inclusion?" <-- impossible to answer, I can tell you that we aren't for 3.0.. But any further (3.01, 3.1) and I have no clue, are more official maps being pulled? Do we want to add more maps? Can we fit new maps into the scope we have planned?
"When can I expect to hear about the prospects for my map?" <-- and not to post a cop-out but Tyr's PM actually answers this, we are all volunteers and as such if Tyr can't spend 40 hours a week looking at maps because of real life, how can Tyr be expected to give you an accurate timeline ?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Mar 4 2005, 01:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Mar 4 2005, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While I don't disagree, I think you are looking at this from an outside perspective..
it's never easy to project an accurate timeline or even be able to say "well we'll be adding maps next release" because we often don't know until we get into the process..
To address each of your questions individually:
"Has my map been playtested at all?" <- good question, but what does "playtested" mean, by Tyr? by the PT's?, or others? See the issue is a single PT is never enough.. Repeated playtests are needed, and if you receive back a "yes" does that truly tell you anything other than someone loaded it up once? Often times details can't be shared necessarily because of things we may be working on..
"When do you expect to be considering new maps for inclusion?" <-- impossible to answer, I can tell you that we aren't for 3.0.. But any further (3.01, 3.1) and I have no clue, are more official maps being pulled? Do we want to add more maps? Can we fit new maps into the scope we have planned?
"When can I expect to hear about the prospects for my map?" <-- and not to post a cop-out but Tyr's PM actually answers this, we are all volunteers and as such if Tyr can't spend 40 hours a week looking at maps because of real life, how can Tyr be expected to give you an accurate timeline ?
Hope this clarification helps... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I should clarify. I wasn't expecting strict timetables. Honestly, a simple "I don't know yet, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do" would be plenty most of the time. It doesn't bother me in the least if things internally are slow to move, I just think the process should be more exposed.
Thanks for the reply <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I dunno if you already read this Gravity. It was written in the ns_eon thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is nothing wrong with the architexture, the architexture is absolutly gorgous. It is also however much more complicated then most NS maps. Get a good bunnyhopper and ask them to Bhop through NS sourse and you will know what I mean.
The walls and cielings all have architextual detailing on them and even the floor is rarely just a flat plane. Most of the rooms even have large and obstrucive obsticals in the way of the player that they have to deal with if they want to pass.
There is nothing wrong with any of those things, it is just something that NS maps haven't done in the past. In the past NS maps have been series of hallways interconnecting with large rooms with ocational vents to allow smaller lifeforms access the areas allowing them to explore more stratigigally. NS_sourse is a whole different beast all together. There are very few long straight hallways to bunnyhop down, and hiding spots abound in insane numbers which should signifigantly slow down your standard NS gameplay.
I don't see this as a bad thing by any means, many of my mapping aspirations inculde exploring gameplay styles that aren't standard issue compeditive NS style. The fact is that it is totally different still, and thus, to make work well, will require more balancing and playtesting.
Personally I would like to see sourse officialized even in it's current, most likely unbalanced, version; I would just like to see such a gorgeous and different map reach its full potential that it can most likely only reach with widespread testing and input.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was written by Swiftspear and I think it's quite interesting because it's the answer he gave me when I was asking for ns_source to become official and so on..
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I should clarify. I wasn't expecting strict timetables. Honestly, a simple "I don't know yet, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do" would be plenty most of the time. It doesn't bother me in the least if things internally are slow to move, I just think the process should be more exposed.
Thanks for the reply <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'll say is the development team is discussing this (between running around like chickens with their heads cut off)...
you start abusing this thread again? please create your replies in threads where they belong <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Lt Gravity+Mar 5 2005, 05:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt Gravity @ Mar 5 2005, 05:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you start abusing this thread again? please create your replies in threads where they belong <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehe, sorry Grav. You should be flattered that your map/thread is attracting so much comunity attention.
Anyways ALL POSTS BELOW THIS LINE WILL BE ONLY OF THE SUBJECT NS_SOURSE
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 5 2005, 06:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 5 2005, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyways ALL POSTS BELOW THIS LINE WILL BE ONLY OF THE SUBJECT NS_SOURSE
________________________________________________________________________________ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lmao, im pretty sure its "Ns_source" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but anyway one thing which impressed me was how low the poly count around the map was, which is good but means uve still got more room for improvement <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a lot of the rockfaces i thought culd do with more detail, erm cant actually think of anything else tho as u dont want to overdo it for the sake of detail
I dont have much space for adding details. thats because the number of clipnotes is very high due to the massive volume of some areas. the low polycount is the result of spending 6 1/2 years in hl mapping. it is suppossed to be a fast running map <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> rocks: thats one of my serious problems. vhe 3.5 doesnt have a surface generator so I have to "invent" this rock surfaces. so they look kinda plain in some areas. I will work that out.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Ran around the map a bit, and I've got some suggestions.
There are a few places in which doors that don't open are lit better than doors that do. It would be more intuitive to navigate the map if every door that opened was well and clearly lit.
Secondly, I don't know if you are willing to tweak lighting at this point, but it looks like in most places in the map you are relying very heavily on spotlights and indirect lighting even though you have a lot of texture lights. In general, it doesn't seem like your texture lights are emitting as much light as it looks like they should. Maybe try compiling a version of it with most of your texlight intensities doubled, but with fewer bounces. Then see if you like the effect.
thats a problem stated before. shure its no problem when you know the map. but I decided to change all doors (except in crewquarters) that DONT open so you can tell by just looking at them. so either doors got deleted, the texture had been changed or I replaced them by "destroyed" doors.
funny, I didnt used soo much spotlights. but of cause spotlights create a more local light so the surroundings appear darker. the effect of indirect lighting is intention. because texture lights look like crap when you dont use it on separted surfaces I "hid" them. you dont have the problem when you use overlays but entity count is high enough <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
in case I would double the intensities I would destroy the feeling within the map. shure, the environment seems little dusty in some areas but one should keep in mind that this map is supposed to be a mining location. nevertheless I will test it out and Im grateful for any piece of advice, moultano.
but since the map comes out in different ways on any pc on this world I wont spend too much time on this. one player tells me the map is too dark, another one tells me its just right, one tells me the lightning is good, another one tells me its bland. you know what I mean <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
update: - "vehicle elevators" and the fitting to "energy supply" are ready to be played. a lot of work but NOW I am finally satisfied with reworked version 4 of this location. - started to work at "crusher" area but thats kinda tough piece of work. my concept was to remove the crusher and simply create a completely new room but it felt like something was missing so I re-added it.
one of my major problems is that A. "resextraction" doesnt fit anymore. I reduced the altitude of "vehicle elevators" so the northern half of the map had to be set up higher. but I also wanted to add an addiotional, weldable route to "resource extraction" so the work is worth it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> B. connection ares to "crusher" dont fit anymore and the distance to the source hive got larger because I deleted "resource processing". I will have to do some extra work to fit it again.
erm... just remembered to change the placeholder readyroom. but this will be the last task when I know how many clipnotes are left. >hint< <i>dropship</i> >hint<
noone mentioned this are to be changed. it may seem little senseless in someones eyes but I never really liked the crusher area. the location was to high, the street with the 2 doors looked like crap. Im shure the gameplay will change dramatically. the range of fire wil be the same but there are more possibilities to ambush the marines. there is much more space to build up a base now.
- finished the connection from drainage so crusher. the route even features the new "airduct" (conveyor for broken rocks from crusher), only the connection to "ore melter" hive is still missing. - re-added resource processing (WOOHOOO!!!) in the northeast crusher and modified it. it looks much more creepy than before. the location will also feature an airduct. - moved the resnode from service ladders to resource processing (so its nearer to the "the source" hive) - service ladders got changed due to the altered layout. it now consists of only 2 ladders. - overall map fixes like missing textures, sounds, wrong lighting etc.
to do: - connection from resource compression to source access. - changes to resource extraction because it doesnt fit anymore. - additional route from resource extraction to source hive. - changes to the source hive so it can be sieged again. - completely new readyroom. - shuttle texture. - sounds in general.
edit: when things keep moving as fast like this weekend I guess version beta 34 will be out in 2-3 weeks.
Comments
Agreed but do remember that everyone working on NS does so for free and they have many other responsibilites in addition to NS. Yes it seems so simple to just send a conformation email but things like that are often over looked. I would suggest not mailing the devs but again go through the PT leads or Zunni since they are usually more able to respond than some of the others on the team.
Agreed but do remember that everyone working on NS does so for free and they have many other responsibilites in addition to NS. Yes it seems so simple to just send a conformation email but things like that are often over looked. I would suggest not mailing the devs but again go through the PT leads or Zunni since they are usually more able to respond than some of the others on the team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if he has that much trouble writing a simple confirmation letter back he shuldnt be in that position. obviously he cant reply to as he said "500 a week" but maps like Shiva and Source r clearly official quality, and my training map wuld be a massive thing to help new players get into the game so i fail to see why he cant send a single PM.
ur right tho Zunni is much more responsive but then he doesnt hav any say over maps, he'll just say u'll hav to wait for Tyr, likewise the playtesters r there more for bugspotting r they not?
I'm going to anger people with this post but I feel that I must respond. I believe that decision is up to the dev team. Not you, not me, not the forum goers.
Tyr can not be there every second that you need to send him a PM and by nagging him you're probably just assuring that he won't get back to you. Take a step back, take a nice big breath, and stop nagging him. If you're that concerned, try messaging one of the PT leads or Zunni and I'm sure they will pass the message along to whoever it pertains to.
<!--QuoteBegin-Meat Popsicle+Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Meat Popsicle @ Mar 2 2005, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the playtesters r there more for bugspotting r they not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, a major part of our job is looking for bugs, but I didn't say to PM the playtesters, I said PM the playtest leads. They are the ones who organize the playtests.
The other policy I disagree with is the desire to keep potential official maps under wraps completely prior to a client release. I can understand wanting the new maps in a major release to be a surprise. However, average players don't play custom maps much, and hardcore players don't need the surprise to keep them interested in the game. Particularly in the case in which a map isn't going to be officially included, or in some cases, isn't even being playtested, it doesn't make sense to prevent the mapper from releasing it to the public. They could be getting valuable balance feedback to improve the map in the meantime, especially if playtesting it internally isn't a priority.
I hope this is helpful feedback on the process. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i agree the dev <b>"team"</b> shuld be responsible for choosing the game content
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Tyr can not be there every second that you need to send him a PM and by nagging him you're probably just assuring that he won't get back to you. Take a step back, take a nice big breath, and stop nagging him. If you're that concerned, try messaging one of the PT leads or Zunni and I'm sure they will pass the message along to whoever it pertains to.
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3 months ago i submitted ns_training, a map which has hardly been enjoyable to make and something that i get very little back in return from as its not something that i can play on a server with my friends (the whole reason i got into mapping). i did it cos it needed doing for the mod (combat is hardly teaching ppl to play ns) and no-one else seemed to want to do it (with the exception of align and keef but that wasnt official standard unfortunately)..
anyway 3 months and i hav heard <u>absolutely nothing</u> from Tyr, and i havnt nagged him, instead i went away and hav greatly improved and polished it, was that not the right attitude ?
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Yes, a major part of our job is looking for bugs, but I didn't say to PM the playtesters, I said PM the playtest leads. They are the ones who organize the playtests.
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i didnt even know there were a group of "official" playtesters, if i send u the map, u can pass it on to them if u like.
i realise by posting all of this im hardly getting on Tyr's good side but mappers arent allowed to publically release their maps if theres a chance of them going official, but if the mapper is never contacted, the map is doomed to spend its life sat in a zip file, simple as that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
perhapps someone shuld point this thread out to the devs, something needs to be done
My appologies. It just seems from this thread that you've been nagging him. My misunderstanding.
Several maps have been custom maps before becoming offical. ns_lost and co_sava come to mind off the top of my head.
Lt Gravity: I'm sorry for continuing to throw your thread off topic like this.
tyrnemesis: I know that.
*me swaps to the other thread before abusing own thread*
QUOTE (Lt Realness @ Mar 2 2005, 10:39 AM)
I don't get why they make this map official and why they don't make ns_source official. ns_source looks very similar to this map and TyrNemesis didn't even reply Lt.Gravitys request yet for about 3 weeks.
IMO NS_sourse, while extreamly gorgeous, probably still needs a bit more playtesting. The archetexture is far from NS standard, and it strikes me as the kind of map that would need to be well playtested several times before a perfect balance can be achieved.
Honestly I would love to see it official though.
what's wrong with the architecture??
the map represents what it is meant to be. or is sb afraid of new things??
soure is better than ayumi or bast..
and bast has really been fixed to its own death and I think I'm not the only one in here who thinks like that about bast.
-edit-
we did alota playtests and the gameplay etc. is excellent! =)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought this might be interesting for you Gravity
the creator cant give objective statements, thats for shure. but the map seemed to me to be very beginner friendly. no too much vents to care for, clearly layout and a decent gameplay speed. but the changes may "fix" this. the basic layout stays the same except some fixes. but this fixes will slightly increase the speed the map is played. and the of cause the level of detail will increase in some areas.
hopefully no "fix to death" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I just walked around in the build linked in your sig and have a few technical suggestions.
With your water, Try to use several water brushes and get it to mold to the room instead of one large block to cover the entire room. It makes it look better and cause less glitches in commander mode and just in general makes rendering easier.
Also, next release, I want you to save a copy of your map and delete all the water brushes/entites, and run just CSG and BSP on it, then build your minimap with the nowater compile. There is a lot of water in this map which causes the minimap to get rather distorted. Compiling a build without the water should make the minimap easier to navigate by.
water: no. because it doesnt work. there is no possibility to create a closed water volume out of more than 1 brush, I tried everything. seems to be a "clientside"-problem <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
under 200? thought is was far abouve 250 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
severall func_water result in the problem, that you can make out where the water brushes touch each other. 1. the surface waves are rendered differently 2. you will be able to notice it when swimming through it. maybe I will add a kind of border when I decide to use separated brushes.
Very relevent to NS sourse, and if we are discussing it lt.real, I would prefer to continue here rather then on that thread.
While I don't disagree, I think you are looking at this from an outside perspective..
it's never easy to project an accurate timeline or even be able to say "well we'll be adding maps next release" because we often don't know until we get into the process..
To address each of your questions individually:
"Has my map been playtested at all?" <- good question, but what does "playtested"
mean, by Tyr? by the PT's?, or others? See the issue is a single PT is never enough.. Repeated playtests are needed, and if you receive back a "yes" does that truly tell you anything other than someone loaded it up once? Often times details can't be shared necessarily because of things we may be working on..
"When do you expect to be considering new maps for inclusion?" <-- impossible to answer, I can tell you that we aren't for 3.0.. But any further (3.01, 3.1) and I have no clue, are more official maps being pulled? Do we want to add more maps? Can we fit new maps into the scope we have planned?
"When can I expect to hear about the prospects for my map?" <-- and not to post a cop-out but Tyr's PM actually answers this, we are all volunteers and as such if Tyr can't spend 40 hours a week looking at maps because of real life, how can Tyr be expected to give you an accurate timeline ?
Hope this clarification helps...
it's never easy to project an accurate timeline or even be able to say "well we'll be adding maps next release" because we often don't know until we get into the process..
To address each of your questions individually:
"Has my map been playtested at all?" <- good question, but what does "playtested"
mean, by Tyr? by the PT's?, or others? See the issue is a single PT is never enough.. Repeated playtests are needed, and if you receive back a "yes" does that truly tell you anything other than someone loaded it up once? Often times details can't be shared necessarily because of things we may be working on..
"When do you expect to be considering new maps for inclusion?" <-- impossible to answer, I can tell you that we aren't for 3.0.. But any further (3.01, 3.1) and I have no clue, are more official maps being pulled? Do we want to add more maps? Can we fit new maps into the scope we have planned?
"When can I expect to hear about the prospects for my map?" <-- and not to post a cop-out but Tyr's PM actually answers this, we are all volunteers and as such if Tyr can't spend 40 hours a week looking at maps because of real life, how can Tyr be expected to give you an accurate timeline ?
Hope this clarification helps... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should clarify. I wasn't expecting strict timetables. Honestly, a simple "I don't know yet, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do" would be plenty most of the time. It doesn't bother me in the least if things internally are slow to move, I just think the process should be more exposed.
Thanks for the reply <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is nothing wrong with the architexture, the architexture is absolutly gorgous. It is also however much more complicated then most NS maps. Get a good bunnyhopper and ask them to Bhop through NS sourse and you will know what I mean.
The walls and cielings all have architextual detailing on them and even the floor is rarely just a flat plane. Most of the rooms even have large and obstrucive obsticals in the way of the player that they have to deal with if they want to pass.
There is nothing wrong with any of those things, it is just something that NS maps haven't done in the past. In the past NS maps have been series of hallways interconnecting with large rooms with ocational vents to allow smaller lifeforms access the areas allowing them to explore more stratigigally. NS_sourse is a whole different beast all together. There are very few long straight hallways to bunnyhop down, and hiding spots abound in insane numbers which should signifigantly slow down your standard NS gameplay.
I don't see this as a bad thing by any means, many of my mapping aspirations inculde exploring gameplay styles that aren't standard issue compeditive NS style. The fact is that it is totally different still, and thus, to make work well, will require more balancing and playtesting.
Personally I would like to see sourse officialized even in it's current, most likely unbalanced, version; I would just like to see such a gorgeous and different map reach its full potential that it can most likely only reach with widespread testing and input.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was written by Swiftspear and I think it's quite interesting because it's the answer he gave me when I was asking for ns_source to become official and so on..
Thanks for the reply <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'll say is the development team is discussing this (between running around like chickens with their heads cut off)...
Stay tuned..
Hehe, sorry Grav. You should be flattered that your map/thread is attracting so much comunity attention.
Anyways ALL POSTS BELOW THIS LINE WILL BE ONLY OF THE SUBJECT NS_SOURSE
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lmao, im pretty sure its "Ns_source" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but anyway one thing which impressed me was how low the poly count around the map was, which is good but means uve still got more room for improvement <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a lot of the rockfaces i thought culd do with more detail, erm cant actually think of anything else tho as u dont want to overdo it for the sake of detail
the low polycount is the result of spending 6 1/2 years in hl mapping. it is suppossed to be a fast running map <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
rocks: thats one of my serious problems. vhe 3.5 doesnt have a surface generator so I have to "invent" this rock surfaces. so they look kinda plain in some areas. I will work that out.
There are a few places in which doors that don't open are lit better than doors that do. It would be more intuitive to navigate the map if every door that opened was well and clearly lit.
Secondly, I don't know if you are willing to tweak lighting at this point, but it looks like in most places in the map you are relying very heavily on spotlights and indirect lighting even though you have a lot of texture lights. In general, it doesn't seem like your texture lights are emitting as much light as it looks like they should. Maybe try compiling a version of it with most of your texlight intensities doubled, but with fewer bounces. Then see if you like the effect.
funny, I didnt used soo much spotlights. but of cause spotlights create a more local light so the surroundings appear darker.
the effect of indirect lighting is intention. because texture lights look like crap when you dont use it on separted surfaces I "hid" them. you dont have the problem when you use overlays but entity count is high enough <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
in case I would double the intensities I would destroy the feeling within the map. shure, the environment seems little dusty in some areas but one should keep in mind that this map is supposed to be a mining location.
nevertheless I will test it out and Im grateful for any piece of advice, moultano.
but since the map comes out in different ways on any pc on this world I wont spend too much time on this. one player tells me the map is too dark, another one tells me its just right, one tells me the lightning is good, another one tells me its bland. you know what I mean <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
update:
- "vehicle elevators" and the fitting to "energy supply" are ready to be played. a lot of work but NOW I am finally satisfied with reworked version 4 of this location.
- started to work at "crusher" area but thats kinda tough piece of work. my concept was to remove the crusher and simply create a completely new room but it felt like something was missing so I re-added it.
one of my major problems is that
A. "resextraction" doesnt fit anymore. I reduced the altitude of "vehicle elevators" so the northern half of the map had to be set up higher. but I also wanted to add an addiotional, weldable route to "resource extraction" so the work is worth it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
B. connection ares to "crusher" dont fit anymore and the distance to the source hive got larger because I deleted "resource processing". I will have to do some extra work to fit it again.
erm... just remembered to change the placeholder readyroom. but this will be the last task when I know how many clipnotes are left. >hint< <i>dropship</i> >hint<
- finished the new crusher area and what should I say... not bad for 6 hours I guess.
- added vent to crusher.
before:
<img src='http://mitglied.lycos.de/centercross/ns_source/crusher_b33.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
now:
<img src='http://mitglied.lycos.de/centercross/ns_source/crusher1_b34.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://mitglied.lycos.de/centercross/ns_source/crusher2_b34.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
noone mentioned this are to be changed. it may seem little senseless in someones eyes but I never really liked the crusher area. the location was to high, the street with the 2 doors looked like crap. Im shure the gameplay will change dramatically. the range of fire wil be the same but there are more possibilities to ambush the marines. there is much more space to build up a base now.
- finished the connection from drainage so crusher. the route even features the new "airduct" (conveyor for broken rocks from crusher), only the connection to "ore melter" hive is still missing.
- re-added resource processing (WOOHOOO!!!) in the northeast crusher and modified it. it looks much more creepy than before. the location will also feature an airduct.
- moved the resnode from service ladders to resource processing (so its nearer to the "the source" hive)
- service ladders got changed due to the altered layout. it now consists of only 2 ladders.
- overall map fixes like missing textures, sounds, wrong lighting etc.
to do:
- connection from resource compression to source access.
- changes to resource extraction because it doesnt fit anymore.
- additional route from resource extraction to source hive.
- changes to the source hive so it can be sieged again.
- completely new readyroom.
- shuttle texture.
- sounds in general.
edit: when things keep moving as fast like this weekend I guess version beta 34 will be out in 2-3 weeks.