Something that might work would be to simply raise the marine starting res with 15-20. That would speed the marine early game up and perhaps make the game more synched...
Don't get me wrong, free upgrades and innate regen are the best things since sliced bread and have opened up gameplay a lot more. Their implementation though is flawed. The idea was to open up possible alternatives to D->M->S not make it so you can do any chamber combo you want, particulary with SC first and clean house. Sensory should be looked at very closely, cloaking, whilst a cool gimmick is a really horrible thing to play againist. Focus pretty much makes it two bite kills regardless of how many meds i drop and it removes any control i have over keeping marines alive. At least with dcs and mcs i can drop meds to keep someone alive but now i have to rely on someone in the heat of the moment finding the time to weld the entire team, and that opportunity just never happens.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
(This thread just got a gazillion times better when the sarcasm dropped. Keep it up, good stuff here.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Dirm+Mar 14 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dirm @ Mar 14 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we are discussing the differences, there are a few other things that immediately come to mind (and I'm sure many others that don't), that you omitted:
1) sensory chambers provide localized scent of fear
2) upgrades are much quicker than previously
3) skulks remain cloaked while moving
Now, about the change in res costs: no one is asserting that 2 res will break the bank. The problem is that the upgrade cost for skulks gets paid many times. A skulk might die 5 times before hitting 50 res for fade or hive. If upgrades were 2 res, that would leave him with 40 res, instead, meaning the fade would be delayed a fair bit (recall that a skulk starts with 25 res, so the skulk ends up having gained 15 res instead of 25, and the skulk has 1.66 times as long to wait for the res). This gets even worse later in the game, where you have two-hive skulks versus upgraded marines with Big Guns. At two hives, it cost 4 res to get upgrades, and a skulk was often more likely to die than get a kill. A skulk had to get two kills (on average) to pay for the upgrades, which was even less likely. Multiply this by the many deaths likely versus, say, a squad of hmg/sgs with mines who are sieging a hive, and that 4 res per life adds up very, very quickly (plus, as mentioned, this would greatly delay the rate at which fresh skulks are charging the marines, due to the difference in gestation time--it is important to keep sieging marines busy so that they do not have time to reload, weld, and build between attacks). Now a skulk can get (say) silence and focus for 0 res in little time, leap in, die, and keep doing so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some good points.
Point 1: I think this doesn't really apply though, since any team with decent teamwork and going sensory first in beta had at least once guy with SoF and a good mic acting as lookout.
Point 2: To be honest.. I never really noticed/thought about it before you pointed it out. Nothing in the changelog about it, so that would be interesting to see some hard numbers on exactly how much it's changed. And yes, I agree this makes a big difference.
Point 3: Very good point, and one I hadn't considered. You're right, the cloaking while running isn't the big issue, its being able to insta-cloak thereafter when you stop. I'll agree that this is a change that could make sensory chambers better than they were before. Is it enough to make it worth re-nerfing them? I don't think so. I think time would be better spent addressing other issues.
Others have brought up good points as well. Grendel's about the dominance of the fade in the midgame is I think especially worth considering. Moreso when you look back and you see the various threads about the huge midgame boost aliens were receiving. The alien side was balanced before knowing they had a weak early game and a strong mid-game. There were numerous complaints about how the alien game all hinged on that mid-game specialist, the fade.
With the stronger early game, this gives us a great opportunity to re-evaluate the fade and see if it still needs to be the "key" player on the alien side. Maybe it doesn't need to hold that role anymore, so can be brought down to strengths a little more comparable with the rest of the alien side.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 14 2005, 08:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 14 2005, 08:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Something that might work would be to simply raise the marine starting res with 15-20. That would speed the marine early game up and perhaps make the game more synched... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It also has the benefit of being easiest to do.
Re: hand grenades and catpacks in competitive play
Don't forget that if you research catpacks or hand grenades, it prevents you from using the Arms Lab or upgrading the Armoury. Even if they were free, that would potentially disuade Comms from upgrading to them. Of course, if they were free, then it would be a choice between better weapons/armour and increased tactical versatility. That at least is a choice. Putting off W/A upgrades and spending 20 res on catpacks (which are themselves pricey), is not a choice most comms would ever be convinced to make.
It's not without precedent. Pre 1.0, the advanced armoury was cheap or free to upgrade (I can't remember which) but whilst upgrading, could not dispense ammunition (it had to be dropped by the comm). That required comms to think carefully about when to upgrade, as opposed to now, when it's a no-brainer.
Free Kharaa upgrades also have the benefit of making it more plausible (from a game mechanic perspective) to give marines more powerful persistent upgrades. Perhaps now we might have the 50 damage hand grenade buff that I've been asking for. An increase in the damage of hand grenades also has the benefit of increasing their blast radius. And what is the effect of taking ANY damage on cloaked kharaa objects or structures...
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> did aliens win 1 out of 20 games in b5? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, on any server I joined, yes. Somehow! Maybe I am not a lucky guy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grahf+Mar 8 2005, 06:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grahf @ Mar 8 2005, 06:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sc does not limit a good fade at all in this version... DCs are useless at first hive: -Cara is useful but almost nothing in comparison to cele, sil, and focus -Rgn is pointless and I hope I dont need to tell you why -Redeption...yep... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Defense chambers were good at start in days of 1.0x, when perma gorges spammed the maps with OC/DC ambushes, and carapaced aliens could stop by for a quick heal. Fades did not need Metabolism these days.
Grendel, tjosan, MrBen, and Dirm, you've made some really excellant points.
I think that people are thinking about the currant balance from the strengths of the alien side and the weaknesses of the marine side.
Tha changes made to aliens are excellant. They make the game so much more versatile and so much more fun and less redundant. Its just that the only changes made in this version to that end were made on the alien side. If equal consideration was given to marines in 3.1 we'd have ourselves an excellant game.
Sc's can not be countered realistically in a high skilled even match. Thats the truth, and there seems to be a consensus on that from people that know what they are talking about. So instead of nerfing the aliens in some way, thought should be made as to how to make the marines able to deal with a wide variety of alien strats.
Some quick ideas: 1)make welders a 20-30 res FAST upgrade in the armory, and make hand nades dropable in packs like mines. 2)give the rines a 5 point base armor boost. This allows for marines to survive one focus bite or two regular bites with a very small amount of health left that a parasite could finish off. So a parasited marine is as vulnerable as a vanilla marine today. This would also result in more parasite kills which is AWESOME and HILARIOUS. 3)start the obs with 100 energy. Cause that would be sooooo much better. EDIT <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1)make welders a 20-30 res FAST upgrade in the armory <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-Albino+Mar 15 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Mar 15 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1)make welders a 20-30 res FAST upgrade in the armory <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Making every rine able to weld, right when he leaves the IP. Highly overpowered and unbalanced.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hannebambel+Mar 15 2005, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hannebambel @ Mar 15 2005, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Albino+Mar 15 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Albino @ Mar 15 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 15 2005, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1)make welders a 20-30 res FAST upgrade in the armory <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making every rine able to weld, right when he leaves the IP. Highly overpowered and unbalanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> right because sc isn't highly overpowered and unbalanced
I cant wait, untill nearly everyone realizes that the key to victory in 3. final is:
Get a mic and use VC to talk to your team.
Teamwork and communication is much more important then in previous version. I even hit the eject button when someone enters the console and doesnt use VC.
Scared of SC? Ask the comm to scan, then ladder into the vent and knife it down.
How long does this take? 5 seconds to get into the vent and another few to knife the SC.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Mar 15 2005, 07:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Mar 15 2005, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I cant wait, untill nearly everyone realizes that the key to victory in 3. final is:
Get a mic and use VC to talk to your team.
Teamwork and communication is much more important then in previous version. I even hit the eject button when someone enters the console and doesnt use VC.
Scared of SC? Ask the comm to scan, then ladder into the vent and knife it down.
How long does this take? 5 seconds to get into the vent and another few to knife the SC.
How long would it take witheout VC? Way too lang. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> have you actually read any of the posts on the last 3-4 pages?
I'm gonna take a slightly different them to my post here. My position on sc is that of tjosan's and comrade's [hi mu].
However why did we get to this point? Why have aliens suffered for so long. I think one of ns' underlying problems is that people are really bad at alien and that nothing has been done to correct this.
And they have been bad for a long time.
Obviously it's a bigger learning curve taking alien for a new player. Aiming a gun crosshair is pretty simple. Skulking is not.
I understand the theory behind combat and why you introduced it. However the fact that it's still part of ns alarms me. On nearly every server I've ever played combat on (we'll get to ns in a sec), the only people fragging to a half decent standard as alien are genuinely good at the game (very few in all honesty) or people that use focus.
I think focus is probably the WORST upgrade you have ever introduced into ns. Instead of actually trying to get better using other upgardes like LEAP (hi best skulk upgrade ever), they run around with cloak focus and silence.
They are learning the game using upgrades which make them INVISIBLE and SILENT. And focus just means they can run around picking up really lucky kills here and there.
The new player sees nothing wrong with this but seriously, what the hell. What on earth posessed you to do it. Instead of adapting through the use of leap movement and ambush skills, players are using these upgardes which lead to no improvement whatsoever.
So now when they go to play ns, they get absolutely massacred. No one builds a chamber, they walk up to marines in straight lines and die. Wow that never usually happens with cloaking?. Hmm what's happening here, instead of a marine dying with 2 bites through focus I actually have to be good at this game? Shocking.
So not only are they really bad at the game, sensory starts to become the first chamber always so that they can have focus and cloaking. This makes public poor. The push for other chamber viability is countered by factors like this.
Basically these people are NOT improving as aliens. Combat has been ruining ns further for ages now.
So few new players want to play alien now because they're so crap at it. Why play a game where you get shat on all the time? But it's not their fault. You have provided them with anti-skill upgrades instead of making them learn to skulk the hard way. Yeah it is hard, but it will provide for the future of ns.
Last bit before I go, I'm gonna bring this issue up again about clan players knowing the game better than most. Remember 2.0 release? I was in torment then and after playing just a few matches we made a list of stuff wrong with the version.
I was told to shut up because there was no way we could be right so quickly. Next patch everything we said was changed. Dig up the posts if you want to, if they weren't deleted. It's not an ego trip, just proof that we see the game far better than anyone else. We see problems QUICKLY. Note: a lot of were hugely sceptical about the sensory changes in the changelog that was posted before release, I think that we've hit that on the head too.
I think you change too much too often in all honesty. I also personally feel that whoever is playtesting these versions need serious vetting. From various sources I hear some PTs play ns in PT only, some dont even use free upgrades in the new version (!). Are these seriously the people directing ns' future?
Whether that's true or not, who knows. But I think you need to seriously adjust your playtesting. Why aren't the patches tested by clans in each continent, rather than the odd one here and there and people from the uk trying to play on USA servers and stuff. Give the people who play and understand your game the most the ability to test your changes. Because let's face it the results of the current playtest system are not great in my opinion.
Imagine selecting active clans [a la veteran system] to test the patches. Test the changes in competitive, organised matches. Clans on the same piece of land with decent pings. The results and feedback from that situation as opposed to constellation members and official PTs would be most useful.
My thoughts..feel free to comment constructively please.
Well some points maybe right, but what actually is a no skill upgrade?
Sorry, but since aliens have no "natural" camouflage, the cloaking is actually a way to set an ambush. Actually rines are better camouflaged in this "metal blue in grey" enviroment. It somhow fits their dark wardrobe. Silence is also very needful, since "surround sound user" hear any alien coming from the exact location and the surprise effect is gone. You can take out cloak, sure, you can take out silence. But I highly doubt someone will learn from that. More likely more and more frutated players leave the server until you have either an insane team unbalance or the game is won by default.
I think you put it pretty well, combat has been hurting ns. The skulks in pubs think that they can go from combat to ns and run in straight lines. Then they get killed and blame it on some sort of cheating. Combat hurts the game more then helps.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 15 2005, 01:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 15 2005, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you put it pretty well, combat has been hurting ns. The skulks in pubs think that they can go from combat to ns and run in straight lines. Then they get killed and blame it on some sort of cheating. Combat hurts the game more then helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for truth.
Seriously, if we are going to have three forms of play, there should be three different balance systems. Competitive play. Public Play Combat Play.
One play style does not translate well into the others. Heck, if I had my way Id let public servers tweak their own balance changes.
But thats just my opinion, and regardless if its a good idea or not, no one is going to change my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone with a bollocksload of experience in comming (both pub and pcw's), I can usually 'feel' how a game develops. Marines DID need their b5 advantage of a strong early game, it was mid-game where the skulks in particular needed a boost. With 3.0F, the skulks have said boost, but the boost is there early-game as well, which overwhelms the marines unless their skill level greatly exceeds the other team.
So i'm in favour of increasing the marines tech speed. I think the idea to increase the marines' starting resources by 15-20 to allow another obs or res tower from the start to be built, is a great one. It'd not offset mid-game a lot, but would increase your possibilities. Like I said, it'd probably be used for an observatory, simply because sc is quite popular atm. What will likely happen is, marines will still go a1 first ( because it's still the best upgrade period. You might as well spam medpacks in MS if you play against sc and do not get a1 first, I think I don't need to explain why. If you don't like the pattern of a1 first, sorry, but that's a different topic.), but they get the luxury of a scan during their first early-game push into places like cargo or chemical. IF used well, that scan will probably allow marines to at least get near alien res towers. As it is, it's neigh impossible to do so.
And hey, if you don't get an obs with the extra starting res, there's other cool stuff you could do with it.. AA, earlier phases, or an extra res tower would probably be used most.
All those things would really help marines early game, which will hopefully allow them to slow the aliens' mid-game, which comes too early due to the current marines' early game. <_<
lol and this post started with me bitching out the ns developers. Im so proud of myself. Thanks alot to everyone who posted replies, i think once the developers take a look at this thread they will have every bit enough information and feedback to make a educated decision on the future of ns and what needs to be done. And with that i request everyone stop posting, your just gonna waste the developer's time. Then youll **** them off and they wont want to do anything. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But Fila, if people stop posting in this thread it will dissapear off the front page of the general discussion forum and be lost forever. It almost was untill you just bumped it.
Sensories are just fine. So what they made it so you can move with cloaking.. You can still see them though..
If not I suggest taking a hammer, breaking your monitor, buying a new one, then increasing the gamma. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Mar 15 2005, 03:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Mar 15 2005, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So i'm in favour of increasing the marines tech speed. I think the idea to increase the marines' starting resources by 15-20 to allow another obs or res tower from the start to be built, is a great one. It'd not offset mid-game a lot, but would increase your possibilities. Like I said, it'd probably be used for an observatory, simply because sc is quite popular atm. What will likely happen is, marines will still go a1 first ( because it's still the best upgrade period. You might as well spam medpacks in MS if you play against sc and do not get a1 first, I think I don't need to explain why. If you don't like the pattern of a1 first, sorry, but that's a different topic.), but they get the luxury of a scan during their first early-game push into places like cargo or chemical. IF used well, that scan will probably allow marines to at least get near alien res towers. As it is, it's neigh impossible to do so.
And hey, if you don't get an obs with the extra starting res, there's other cool stuff you could do with it.. AA, earlier phases, or an extra res tower would probably be used most.
All those things would really help marines early game, which will hopefully allow them to slow the aliens' mid-game, which comes too early due to the current marines' early game. <_<
Hope it all makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89816' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=89816</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Fila+Mar 17 2005, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fila @ Mar 17 2005, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol and this post started with me bitching out the ns developers. Im so proud of myself. Thanks alot to everyone who posted replies, i think once the developers take a look at this thread they will have every bit enough information and feedback to make a educated decision on the future of ns and what needs to be done. And with that i request everyone stop posting, your just gonna waste the developer's time. Then youll **** them off and they wont want to do anything. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
me make popular thread. me proud of me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Developers don't read the threads in general discussion almost at all anyways. Every once in a while you will see someone browsing over them, but most of the time they go all but compleatly ignored.
Rest assured the clanning comunity is trying to keep this issue on the tops of the dev's heads as with as much sway as they have, which may not seem like much but is acctually surprizingly substantial.
Ever game I've played as Aliens, I've put up classic DC first. I don't remember reading anything about redemption inprovements in this update, but it seems to work a lot better for skulks now. No lie. I've put up DCs and had entire teams complain. I'd tell them to shut up and get redemption. They got redemption, and guess what? They all died a whole lot less. This happens every game. It might be the innate regen that helps it out a little, or something may have changed. But in my opinion, DC is still a strong starter.
More importantly, commandinging on marines. If I can get so much as one more RT for a few minute at the start, I can get my marines armor2, wepaons1, and an advanced armory on the way in 5 minutes. I dunno about you, but any armor upgrade and two marines watching eachothers backs pretty much counters sensory in my experiance so far. MT is usually one of the last upgrades I get if they have SC. (call me stupid but) If they're all invisible, it doesn't do anything.
btw, Fila, don't be such a big cry baby. If you were developing a game of any kind, would you listen to some random guy who comes on and starts to bad mouth players AND the game with no real back up? Really, that's childish. I somehow doubt the devs will do anything even with this thread, because no one else is making a huge deal of it like you are.
<!--QuoteBegin-KenHidaka+Mar 18 2005, 08:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KenHidaka @ Mar 18 2005, 08:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever game I've played as Aliens, I've put up classic DC first. I don't remember reading anything about redemption inprovements in this update, but it seems to work a lot better for skulks now. No lie. I've put up DCs and had entire teams complain. I'd tell them to shut up and get redemption. They got redemption, and guess what? They all died a whole lot less. This happens every game. It might be the innate regen that helps it out a little, or something may have changed. But in my opinion, DC is still a strong starter.
More importantly, commandinging on marines. If I can get so much as one more RT for a few minute at the start, I can get my marines armor2, wepaons1, and an advanced armory on the way in 5 minutes. I dunno about you, but any armor upgrade and two marines watching eachothers backs pretty much counters sensory in my experiance so far. MT is usually one of the last upgrades I get if they have SC. (call me stupid but) If they're all invisible, it doesn't do anything.
btw, Fila, don't be such a big cry baby. If you were developing a game of any kind, would you listen to some random guy who comes on and starts to bad mouth players AND the game with no real back up? Really, that's childish. I somehow doubt the devs will do anything even with this thread, because no one else is making a huge deal of it like you are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> redemption was changed from 35% chance of reedeming to 45% in b5. and yes it did make a difference.
Comments
1) sensory chambers provide localized scent of fear
2) upgrades are much quicker than previously
3) skulks remain cloaked while moving
Now, about the change in res costs: no one is asserting that 2 res will break the bank. The problem is that the upgrade cost for skulks gets paid many times. A skulk might die 5 times before hitting 50 res for fade or hive. If upgrades were 2 res, that would leave him with 40 res, instead, meaning the fade would be delayed a fair bit (recall that a skulk starts with 25 res, so the skulk ends up having gained 15 res instead of 25, and the skulk has 1.66 times as long to wait for the res). This gets even worse later in the game, where you have two-hive skulks versus upgraded marines with Big Guns. At two hives, it cost 4 res to get upgrades, and a skulk was often more likely to die than get a kill. A skulk had to get two kills (on average) to pay for the upgrades, which was even less likely. Multiply this by the many deaths likely versus, say, a squad of hmg/sgs with mines who are sieging a hive, and that 4 res per life adds up very, very quickly (plus, as mentioned, this would greatly delay the rate at which fresh skulks are charging the marines, due to the difference in gestation time--it is important to keep sieging marines busy so that they do not have time to reload, weld, and build between attacks). Now a skulk can get (say) silence and focus for 0 res in little time, leap in, die, and keep doing so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some good points.
Point 1: I think this doesn't really apply though, since any team with decent teamwork and going sensory first in beta had at least once guy with SoF and a good mic acting as lookout.
Point 2: To be honest.. I never really noticed/thought about it before you pointed it out. Nothing in the changelog about it, so that would be interesting to see some hard numbers on exactly how much it's changed. And yes, I agree this makes a big difference.
Point 3: Very good point, and one I hadn't considered. You're right, the cloaking while running isn't the big issue, its being able to insta-cloak thereafter when you stop. I'll agree that this is a change that could make sensory chambers better than they were before. Is it enough to make it worth re-nerfing them? I don't think so. I think time would be better spent addressing other issues.
Others have brought up good points as well. Grendel's about the dominance of the fade in the midgame is I think especially worth considering. Moreso when you look back and you see the various threads about the huge midgame boost aliens were receiving. The alien side was balanced before knowing they had a weak early game and a strong mid-game. There were numerous complaints about how the alien game all hinged on that mid-game specialist, the fade.
With the stronger early game, this gives us a great opportunity to re-evaluate the fade and see if it still needs to be the "key" player on the alien side. Maybe it doesn't need to hold that role anymore, so can be brought down to strengths a little more comparable with the rest of the alien side.
It also has the benefit of being easiest to do.
Re: hand grenades and catpacks in competitive play
Don't forget that if you research catpacks or hand grenades, it prevents you from using the Arms Lab or upgrading the Armoury. Even if they were free, that would potentially disuade Comms from upgrading to them. Of course, if they were free, then it would be a choice between better weapons/armour and increased tactical versatility. That at least is a choice. Putting off W/A upgrades and spending 20 res on catpacks (which are themselves pricey), is not a choice most comms would ever be convinced to make.
It's not without precedent. Pre 1.0, the advanced armoury was cheap or free to upgrade (I can't remember which) but whilst upgrading, could not dispense ammunition (it had to be dropped by the comm). That required comms to think carefully about when to upgrade, as opposed to now, when it's a no-brainer.
Free Kharaa upgrades also have the benefit of making it more plausible (from a game mechanic perspective) to give marines more powerful persistent upgrades. Perhaps now we might have the 50 damage hand grenade buff that I've been asking for. An increase in the damage of hand grenades also has the benefit of increasing their blast radius. And what is the effect of taking ANY damage on cloaked kharaa objects or structures...
did aliens win 1 out of 20 games in b5? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, on any server I joined, yes. Somehow!
Maybe I am not a lucky guy.
DCs are useless at first hive:
-Cara is useful but almost nothing in comparison to cele, sil, and focus
-Rgn is pointless and I hope I dont need to tell you why
-Redeption...yep...
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The Defense chambers were good at start in days of 1.0x, when perma gorges
spammed the maps with OC/DC ambushes, and carapaced aliens could stop by
for a quick heal.
Fades did not need Metabolism these days.
I think that people are thinking about the currant balance from the strengths of the alien side and the weaknesses of the marine side.
Tha changes made to aliens are excellant. They make the game so much more versatile and so much more fun and less redundant. Its just that the only changes made in this version to that end were made on the alien side. If equal consideration was given to marines in 3.1 we'd have ourselves an excellant game.
Sc's can not be countered realistically in a high skilled even match. Thats the truth, and there seems to be a consensus on that from people that know what they are talking about. So instead of nerfing the aliens in some way, thought should be made as to how to make the marines able to deal with a wide variety of alien strats.
Some quick ideas:
1)make welders a 20-30 res FAST upgrade in the armory, and make hand nades dropable in packs like mines.
2)give the rines a 5 point base armor boost. This allows for marines to survive one focus bite or two regular bites with a very small amount of health left that a parasite could finish off. So a parasited marine is as vulnerable as a vanilla marine today. This would also result in more parasite kills which is AWESOME and HILARIOUS.
3)start the obs with 100 energy. Cause that would be sooooo much better.
EDIT <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea.
If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making every rine able to weld, right when he leaves the IP.
Highly overpowered and unbalanced.
If you mean that after the upgrade you have them every spawn like hand grenades that's a cool idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making every rine able to weld, right when he leaves the IP.
Highly overpowered and unbalanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
right because sc isn't highly overpowered and unbalanced
Get a mic and use VC to talk to your team.
Teamwork and communication is much more important then in previous version. I even hit the eject button when someone enters the console and doesnt use VC.
Scared of SC? Ask the comm to scan, then ladder into the vent and knife it down.
How long does this take? 5 seconds to get into the vent and another few to knife the SC.
How long would it take witheout VC? Way too lang.
Get a mic and use VC to talk to your team.
Teamwork and communication is much more important then in previous version. I even hit the eject button when someone enters the console and doesnt use VC.
Scared of SC? Ask the comm to scan, then ladder into the vent and knife it down.
How long does this take? 5 seconds to get into the vent and another few to knife the SC.
How long would it take witheout VC? Way too lang. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
have you actually read any of the posts on the last 3-4 pages?
thats why they are good at teamwork
because they can communicate
it isn't simple to say "crawl in the vent and knife the sc"
people in clans can play the alien team too
people in clans have realised that sensory is overpowered
However why did we get to this point? Why have aliens suffered for so long. I think one of ns' underlying problems is that people are really bad at alien and that nothing has been done to correct this.
And they have been bad for a long time.
Obviously it's a bigger learning curve taking alien for a new player. Aiming a gun crosshair is pretty simple. Skulking is not.
I understand the theory behind combat and why you introduced it. However the fact that it's still part of ns alarms me. On nearly every server I've ever played combat on (we'll get to ns in a sec), the only people fragging to a half decent standard as alien are genuinely good at the game (very few in all honesty) or people that use focus.
I think focus is probably the WORST upgrade you have ever introduced into ns. Instead of actually trying to get better using other upgardes like LEAP (hi best skulk upgrade ever), they run around with cloak focus and silence.
They are learning the game using upgrades which make them INVISIBLE and SILENT. And focus just means they can run around picking up really lucky kills here and there.
The new player sees nothing wrong with this but seriously, what the hell. What on earth posessed you to do it. Instead of adapting through the use of leap movement and ambush skills, players are using these upgardes which lead to no improvement whatsoever.
So now when they go to play ns, they get absolutely massacred. No one builds a chamber, they walk up to marines in straight lines and die. Wow that never usually happens with cloaking?. Hmm what's happening here, instead of a marine dying with 2 bites through focus I actually have to be good at this game? Shocking.
So not only are they really bad at the game, sensory starts to become the first chamber always so that they can have focus and cloaking. This makes public poor. The push for other chamber viability is countered by factors like this.
Basically these people are NOT improving as aliens. Combat has been ruining ns further for ages now.
So few new players want to play alien now because they're so crap at it. Why play a game where you get shat on all the time? But it's not their fault. You have provided them with anti-skill upgrades instead of making them learn to skulk the hard way. Yeah it is hard, but it will provide for the future of ns.
Last bit before I go, I'm gonna bring this issue up again about clan players knowing the game better than most. Remember 2.0 release? I was in torment then and after playing just a few matches we made a list of stuff wrong with the version.
I was told to shut up because there was no way we could be right so quickly. Next patch everything we said was changed. Dig up the posts if you want to, if they weren't deleted. It's not an ego trip, just proof that we see the game far better than anyone else. We see problems QUICKLY. Note: a lot of were hugely sceptical about the sensory changes in the changelog that was posted before release, I think that we've hit that on the head too.
I think you change too much too often in all honesty. I also personally feel that whoever is playtesting these versions need serious vetting. From various sources I hear some PTs play ns in PT only, some dont even use free upgrades in the new version (!). Are these seriously the people directing ns' future?
Whether that's true or not, who knows. But I think you need to seriously adjust your playtesting. Why aren't the patches tested by clans in each continent, rather than the odd one here and there and people from the uk trying to play on USA servers and stuff. Give the people who play and understand your game the most the ability to test your changes. Because let's face it the results of the current playtest system are not great in my opinion.
Imagine selecting active clans [a la veteran system] to test the patches. Test the changes in competitive, organised matches. Clans on the same piece of land with decent pings. The results and feedback from that situation as opposed to constellation members and official PTs would be most useful.
My thoughts..feel free to comment constructively please.
Sorry, but since aliens have no "natural" camouflage, the cloaking is actually a way to set an ambush. Actually rines are better camouflaged in this "metal blue in grey" enviroment. It somhow fits their dark wardrobe.
Silence is also very needful, since "surround sound user" hear any alien coming from the exact location and the surprise effect is gone.
You can take out cloak, sure, you can take out silence. But I highly doubt someone will learn from that. More likely more and more frutated players leave the server until you have either an insane team unbalance or the game is won by default.
Quoted for truth.
Seriously, if we are going to have three forms of play, there should be three different balance systems.
Competitive play.
Public Play
Combat Play.
One play style does not translate well into the others. Heck, if I had my way Id let public servers tweak their own balance changes.
But thats just my opinion, and regardless if its a good idea or not, no one is going to change my opinion.
As someone with a bollocksload of experience in comming (both pub and pcw's), I can usually 'feel' how a game develops. Marines DID need their b5 advantage of a strong early game, it was mid-game where the skulks in particular needed a boost. With 3.0F, the skulks have said boost, but the boost is there early-game as well, which overwhelms the marines unless their skill level greatly exceeds the other team.
So i'm in favour of increasing the marines tech speed. I think the idea to increase the marines' starting resources by 15-20 to allow another obs or res tower from the start to be built, is a great one. It'd not offset mid-game a lot, but would increase your possibilities. Like I said, it'd probably be used for an observatory, simply because sc is quite popular atm. What will likely happen is, marines will still go a1 first ( because it's still the best upgrade period. You might as well spam medpacks in MS if you play against sc and do not get a1 first, I think I don't need to explain why. If you don't like the pattern of a1 first, sorry, but that's a different topic.), but they get the luxury of a scan during their first early-game push into places like cargo or chemical. IF used well, that scan will probably allow marines to at least get near alien res towers. As it is, it's neigh impossible to do so.
And hey, if you don't get an obs with the extra starting res, there's other cool stuff you could do with it.. AA, earlier phases, or an extra res tower would probably be used most.
All those things would really help marines early game, which will hopefully allow them to slow the aliens' mid-game, which comes too early due to the current marines' early game. <_<
Hope it all makes sense.
me make popular thread. me proud of me.
If not I suggest taking a hammer, breaking your monitor, buying a new one, then increasing the gamma. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So i'm in favour of increasing the marines tech speed. I think the idea to increase the marines' starting resources by 15-20 to allow another obs or res tower from the start to be built, is a great one. It'd not offset mid-game a lot, but would increase your possibilities. Like I said, it'd probably be used for an observatory, simply because sc is quite popular atm. What will likely happen is, marines will still go a1 first ( because it's still the best upgrade period. You might as well spam medpacks in MS if you play against sc and do not get a1 first, I think I don't need to explain why. If you don't like the pattern of a1 first, sorry, but that's a different topic.), but they get the luxury of a scan during their first early-game push into places like cargo or chemical. IF used well, that scan will probably allow marines to at least get near alien res towers. As it is, it's neigh impossible to do so.
And hey, if you don't get an obs with the extra starting res, there's other cool stuff you could do with it.. AA, earlier phases, or an extra res tower would probably be used most.
All those things would really help marines early game, which will hopefully allow them to slow the aliens' mid-game, which comes too early due to the current marines' early game. <_<
Hope it all makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89816' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=89816</a>
:o
me make popular thread. me proud of me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Developers don't read the threads in general discussion almost at all anyways. Every once in a while you will see someone browsing over them, but most of the time they go all but compleatly ignored.
Rest assured the clanning comunity is trying to keep this issue on the tops of the dev's heads as with as much sway as they have, which may not seem like much but is acctually surprizingly substantial.
More importantly, commandinging on marines. If I can get so much as one more RT for a few minute at the start, I can get my marines armor2, wepaons1, and an advanced armory on the way in 5 minutes. I dunno about you, but any armor upgrade and two marines watching eachothers backs pretty much counters sensory in my experiance so far. MT is usually one of the last upgrades I get if they have SC. (call me stupid but) If they're all invisible, it doesn't do anything.
btw, Fila, don't be such a big cry baby. If you were developing a game of any kind, would you listen to some random guy who comes on and starts to bad mouth players AND the game with no real back up? Really, that's childish. I somehow doubt the devs will do anything even with this thread, because no one else is making a huge deal of it like you are.
More importantly, commandinging on marines. If I can get so much as one more RT for a few minute at the start, I can get my marines armor2, wepaons1, and an advanced armory on the way in 5 minutes. I dunno about you, but any armor upgrade and two marines watching eachothers backs pretty much counters sensory in my experiance so far. MT is usually one of the last upgrades I get if they have SC. (call me stupid but) If they're all invisible, it doesn't do anything.
btw, Fila, don't be such a big cry baby. If you were developing a game of any kind, would you listen to some random guy who comes on and starts to bad mouth players AND the game with no real back up? Really, that's childish. I somehow doubt the devs will do anything even with this thread, because no one else is making a huge deal of it like you are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
redemption was changed from 35% chance of reedeming to 45% in b5. and yes it did make a difference.