To be fair, we did give South America the shaft quite a bit in the early 1900s. What with all the military interventions and all.
Oh, and there was the thing about assassinating those dictators too...
And lastly, though we have some good reasons for it, Cuba is currently in a financial slum since we embargo practically every commodity in Cuba. It'd probably become a post industrial country once American businessmen invest in it.
Other than that, I fail to see how you can blame the US for the technological/economic disparities between the US and Western Europe against practically every other region. You have largely France, Germany, Great Britain, and Belgium to thank for that.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 27 2005, 08:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 27 2005, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You want to save Social Security? Stop giving money to illegal immigrants. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <3
We really need to clamp down on the border and load-runners. If we can solve those two problems, illegal immigration issues will become a thing of the past.
Or we could just improve the way employers are allowed to pay workers, making illegal immigration decidedly unattractive. Protect America's workers, and we don't have to spend extra money making America's borders rock-solid.
Or, we wouldn't have to spend extra money period, and let them work on jobs for a pittance.
And if you seriously think that illegal immigrants are the main reason bogging down an archaic welfare program that was designed during the Depression....well that's just silly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or we could just improve the way employers are allowed to pay workers, making illegal immigration decidedly unattractive. Protect America's workers, and we don't have to spend extra money making America's borders rock-solid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or we could do both!
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 30 2005, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 30 2005, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or we could just improve the way employers are allowed to pay workers, making illegal immigration decidedly unattractive. Protect America's workers, and we don't have to spend extra money making America's borders rock-solid. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or we could do both! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It still leaves the problem of people who come over here illegally and muck up the system for those trying to get in legally.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 30 2005, 09:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 30 2005, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not if we use my foolproof 3 step program, Wall, Landmines, and Soldiers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh God....the bloodshed in Congress over legislation granting permission to lay landmines on the border will be 10 times greater than that of the landmines themselves. Which is saying a lot.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 30 2005, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 30 2005, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not if we use my foolproof 3 step program, Wall, Landmines, and Soldiers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't forget the kittens with laser beams. Those little bastards are <i>deadly</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 30 2005, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 30 2005, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 30 2005, 09:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 30 2005, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not if we use my foolproof 3 step program, Wall, Landmines, and Soldiers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh God....the bloodshed in Congress over legislation granting permission to lay landmines on the border will be 10 times greater than that of the landmines themselves. Which is saying a lot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who said anything about asking Congress, it's not like anyone is actually watching the border. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 30 2005, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or we could just improve the way employers are allowed to pay workers, making illegal immigration decidedly unattractive. Protect America's workers, and we don't have to spend extra money making America's borders rock-solid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Protectionism works badly in the long run. If you artificially create jobs or artificially give incentives for companies to hire Americans, then you have to keep on doing it forever. Other countries will always be a supply of cheap labor, because they are poor.
If you allow some American jobs to be given to foreigners, then money will flood into poor countries to build factories, bringing their economic status up. It won't happen overnight, but eventually we won't have to worry about protecting American jobs, because our source of labor won't be much more expensive than the competition.
I don't know why you guys think that Americans are more deserving of a high quality life than Mexicans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not if we use my foolproof 3 step program, Wall, Landmines, and Soldiers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. You're right, regardless of whether you are being sarcastic. This is the only way to ensure that the borders will be locked down.
Like Rapier7 said, it's better to spend your money on government services for illegal immigrants in this country than to spend your money on keeping them out.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 30 2005, 12:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 30 2005, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't care what YOUR family did. The law is blind from sob stories both yours and mine, but in this particular case, we have a stupid law. Laws can be made, but they can also be revised and changed.
Oh, and Cold NiTe, <b>the first generation immigrants won't learn the language.</b> The second generation will definitely be tied down into American culture and learn a mix of their language and English. You focus too much on the first generation, and not the ones to follow. Such was the case in our rather disturbingly shameful past, such is the case now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's no sob story friend, what started out with my family being on its head monetarily turned into us being well off because of a little thing called a college education. Anyway, this isn't just about money, it's about obeying laws. As for the bolded statement, <i>I'm</i> first generation and <i>I</i> learned the language, I think <u>they can too</u>.
You see I think that the first generation of immigrants is always the problem. Once you go down the generations you see they have naturalized into our society and there is no issue. But before that process takes place, the newly immigrated cause friction in our society because half the time they don't choose to integrate and understand their surroundings. You can't move to a new place and ignore the fact that they do things differently here. If you don't believe me on this, go watch some of our immigrant drivers. There's hell on wheels for you.
================ As for this whole argument about them "stealing" jobs, that's silly. If they are willing to do a job you wouldn't touch with a 9 foot pole, for a price you wouldn't pay your dog, then who on Earth are you to complain. This nation was founded on immigration. We live on the backs of these people, don't you see? Without them, everything would begin a slow collapse, because there are no rich without poor. I'd be all for opening up the borders if I could be guaranteed that we wouldn't be letting in a lot of people who are willing to ignore our rules and claim ignorance. But sadly we can't. And I don't think I can wait for their children's children to be the ones following the rules, because by then I'd be dead.
How about instead of yelling at all our failures in stopping illegal immigration, we think about creating a forced naturalization process that works. You can't stop the guys who are hiding in that boat perhaps, but once they are here and they are identified you could force them to learn what is required of them to be good rule abiding citizens.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... Something to think about yes, but why not put more effort into preventing the illegals anyways. Oh yeah! That's because you encourage it and even create booklets giving tips on how to succeed.
I'm just a simple guy that expects people to follow the law. And simply put they are immigrating here illegally. This makes their actions bad. This means we should take measures to curb these bad acts.
If you support legalization of marijuana, you'd support almost unrestricted access into the US from Mexico.
So if somebody breaks the law, it's an automatic evil act? That's ridiculous. These people haven't done anything to you, they just want a damn job so they can support their family or pay their fiancé's family their dowry.
Christ, law is separate from passion, but the lawmakers aren't. Let's put that into play.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who wouldnt, they employ volunteers who may have dubious intention. Hell, if they wanted to waste their time doing that, I figure it may be a hint towards their feeling about immigrants.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... Something to think about yes, but why not put more effort into preventing the illegals anyways. Oh yeah! That's because you encourage it and even create booklets giving tips on how to succeed.
I'm just a simple guy that expects people to follow the law. And simply put they are immigrating here illegally. This makes their actions bad. This means we should take measures to curb these bad acts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Mexican government is worried that a vigilante group is hunting down its citizens. The Mexican government exists to serve the interests of its citizens. The Minutemen go against the interests of Mexican citizens.
As a legal immigrant to the United States I have very little sympathy for illegals.
Honestly, laws are in place for a reason. Why should this country have to "accomodate" people who willfully enter uninvited. It is totally ridiculous.
My name and fingerprints are in god knows how many law enforcement databases; I pay my taxes and do my fair share to contribute to society over here.
And sure there are those illegals who mind their own business and do some hard work over here etc. But you know, I don't buy into this whole "they'll do the jobs that nobody wants over here" idea.
Frankly if the job doesnt pay enough then by <b>market forces lets see some better wages that encourage U.S. citizens to do these 'unwanted' jobs, and not rely on a *nudge* *nudge* *wink wink* work force to do them for us. </b>
Edit: And if part of the solution is some sort of "temporary work visa" fine; but for god's sake lets start keeping track of these people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if somebody breaks the law, it's an automatic evil act?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Automatic no... Illegal yes... Bad yes...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These people haven't done anything to you, they just want a damn job so they can support their family or pay their fiancé's family their dowry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the US is not here to be their welfare system. Just because their country is not as prosperous does not mean they have any right to come to our country illegally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who wouldnt, they employ volunteers who may have dubious intention.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> May have? That's definitely reason enough to help their citizens break our country's laws. Besides, they've been helping their citizens commit crimes in our country before this was even done. So such a justification means nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I figure it may be a hint towards their feeling about immigrants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You mean the feeling that these immigrants should be expected to respect the laws of our country? What an amazing idea!
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Mexican government is worried that a vigilante group is hunting down its citizens. The Mexican government exists to serve the interests of its citizens. The Minutemen go against the interests of Mexican citizens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it appears we have a conflict of interests...if Mexico doesn’t want American vigilante groups guarding the border then perhaps they should discourage their citizens from coming her illegally.
And come on now we all know American government and interests > Mexican government and interests. Always. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, if Mexico would keep its crap on its side of the dotted line then we wouldn’t have the Minutemen to worry about.
Notice you don’t see our government doing anything to stop the Minutemen even though it could. They know many of the people in the Border States are at the breaking point; I wouldn’t be surprised if this gets messy soon.
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Apr 2 2005, 07:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Apr 2 2005, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if somebody breaks the law, it's an automatic evil act?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Automatic no... Illegal yes... Bad yes... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, civil disobedience is wrong? Illegal != Bad.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, if Mexico would keep its crap on its side of the dotted line then we wouldn’t have the Minutemen to worry about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we can't keep them from crossing the border, then the Mexicans sure as hell can't do it.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 09:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we can't keep them from crossing the border, then the Mexicans sure as hell can't do it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They could help, or hell they could simply do nothing, but no they <i>encourage</i> it. They encourage their citizens to break United States laws.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 2 2005, 10:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 2 2005, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 09:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we can't keep them from crossing the border, then the Mexicans sure as hell can't do it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They could help, or hell they could simply do nothing, but no they <i>encourage</i> it. They encourage their citizens to break United States laws. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you give some evidence of this? People have said this in the thread several times, but I haven't seen any evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I won't believe it until you prove it to me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 2 2005, 11:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 2 2005, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So if somebody breaks the law, it's an automatic evil act? That's ridiculous. These people haven't done anything to you, they just want a damn job so they can support their family or pay their fiancé's family their dowry.
Christ, law is separate from passion, but the lawmakers aren't. Let's put that into play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Attacking the fact that some people have vested interests in this debate is not going to help an argument, and it's not fair to the people who are "passionate". I care because it effects me in a very direct manner. I assume many others feel the same way, including FilthyLarry.
Breaking the law = evil act? <b>No, it's an ignorant act, but ignorance and evil can accomplish the same ends.</b> An immigrant who drives without ever taking the test and gets in a wreck and kills someone because he never learned how is not an evil person, simply an ignorant one. But he still got someone killed. And don't be naive enough to think it doesn't happen. Not everyone on the road has license, some of them down here don't even seem to know what the Department of Public Saftey <i>is</i> let alone going down there and learning to drive appropriately.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 30 2005, 03:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 30 2005, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People act as if this was a problem.
Riddle me this, what harm are the "illegal immigrants" doing in wanting to migrate to the US? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Nite.
Because alot of them don't really want to be here; they just want what they can get out of the US. They have no loyalties to this country, and as such are a security risk and frankly an insult to the hard-working legal immigrants who go through the proper channels at great expense and personal sacrifice.
Whats the danger? Keep in mind the example set by China and Tibet. Part of China's plan to keep Tibet under control is to promote mass immigration of Chinese into Tibet. It is an attempt to wipe out Tibetan culture.
I am one of many legal immigrants that actually respect the US and am grateful to be where I am today. It annoys the hell out of me when I get stared at by people that I strongly suspect to be illegal and the get the whole "I hate you americans but I want your stuff" look. Honestly, these are not the type of people I want as neighbours and frankly I don't think many do.
And yes we understand that alot of them have families and so forth. I'm all for helping people in need but letting mass illegals through the border is not a responsible way to go about doing that.
If you want them here so badly, fine, but please ensure that you actually document them and grant them some sort of temporary work visa. It's generally a good idea to know who enters your country.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can you give some evidence of this? People have said this in the thread several times, but I haven't seen any evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I won't believe it until you prove it to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is one example: <a href='http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0101Comic01.html' target='_blank'>http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...101Comic01.html</a>
What? I never said I encouraged illegal immigration, I just want it to be easier for these people to come into the US. Temporary work visas, or gradual citizenship would be a route that I'd give to these people.
But seriously, first generation immigrants usually don't come to the US because they like the US, they come because their own country sucks, and they hope that the US would be a better place. Lesser of two evils, you see...
In any case, as long as they come here through designated checkpoints, and we get their stuff on the files, I see no problem why they shouldn't be here.
This is essentially a victimless crime. We just need a better way to allow them in here, and still have their data on the sheets.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 3 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 3 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What? I never said I encouraged illegal immigration, I just want it to be easier for these people to come into the US. Temporary work visas, or gradual citizenship would be a route that I'd give to these people.
But seriously, first generation immigrants usually don't come to the US because they like the US, they come because their own country sucks, and they hope that the US would be a better place. Lesser of two evils, you see...
In any case, as long as they come here through designated checkpoints, and we get their stuff on the files, I see no problem why they shouldn't be here.
This is essentially a victimless crime. We just need a better way to allow them in here, and still have their data on the sheets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay now that I can agree with. Get them in here legally, force them to naturalize so they don't break laws through ignorance, and everything's fine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 2 2005, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 2 2005, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you support legalization of marijuana, you'd support almost unrestricted access into the US from Mexico.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how do you figure?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
People seem very keen to ensure that people don't end up living at our standard.
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 4 2005, 07:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 4 2005, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People seem very keen to ensure that people don't end up living at our standard.
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm glad I never said that.
Comments
Oh, and there was the thing about assassinating those dictators too...
And lastly, though we have some good reasons for it, Cuba is currently in a financial slum since we embargo practically every commodity in Cuba. It'd probably become a post industrial country once American businessmen invest in it.
Other than that, I fail to see how you can blame the US for the technological/economic disparities between the US and Western Europe against practically every other region. You have largely France, Germany, Great Britain, and Belgium to thank for that.
<3
We really need to clamp down on the border and load-runners. If we can solve those two problems, illegal immigration issues will become a thing of the past.
And if you seriously think that illegal immigrants are the main reason bogging down an archaic welfare program that was designed during the Depression....well that's just silly.
Or we could do both!
Or we could do both! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still leaves the problem of people who come over here illegally and muck up the system for those trying to get in legally.
Oh God....the bloodshed in Congress over legislation granting permission to lay landmines on the border will be 10 times greater than that of the landmines themselves. Which is saying a lot.
Don't forget the kittens with laser beams. Those little bastards are <i>deadly</i>.
Oh God....the bloodshed in Congress over legislation granting permission to lay landmines on the border will be 10 times greater than that of the landmines themselves. Which is saying a lot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said anything about asking Congress, it's not like anyone is actually watching the border. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Protectionism works badly in the long run. If you artificially create jobs or artificially give incentives for companies to hire Americans, then you have to keep on doing it forever. Other countries will always be a supply of cheap labor, because they are poor.
If you allow some American jobs to be given to foreigners, then money will flood into poor countries to build factories, bringing their economic status up. It won't happen overnight, but eventually we won't have to worry about protecting American jobs, because our source of labor won't be much more expensive than the competition.
I don't know why you guys think that Americans are more deserving of a high quality life than Mexicans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not if we use my foolproof 3 step program, Wall, Landmines, and Soldiers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. You're right, regardless of whether you are being sarcastic. This is the only way to ensure that the borders will be locked down.
Like Rapier7 said, it's better to spend your money on government services for illegal immigrants in this country than to spend your money on keeping them out.
Oh, and Cold NiTe, <b>the first generation immigrants won't learn the language.</b> The second generation will definitely be tied down into American culture and learn a mix of their language and English. You focus too much on the first generation, and not the ones to follow. Such was the case in our rather disturbingly shameful past, such is the case now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's no sob story friend, what started out with my family being on its head monetarily turned into us being well off because of a little thing called a college education. Anyway, this isn't just about money, it's about obeying laws. As for the bolded statement, <i>I'm</i> first generation and <i>I</i> learned the language, I think <u>they can too</u>.
You see I think that the first generation of immigrants is always the problem. Once you go down the generations you see they have naturalized into our society and there is no issue. But before that process takes place, the newly immigrated cause friction in our society because half the time they don't choose to integrate and understand their surroundings. You can't move to a new place and ignore the fact that they do things differently here. If you don't believe me on this, go watch some of our immigrant drivers. There's hell on wheels for you.
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As for this whole argument about them "stealing" jobs, that's silly. If they are willing to do a job you wouldn't touch with a 9 foot pole, for a price you wouldn't pay your dog, then who on Earth are you to complain. This nation was founded on immigration. We live on the backs of these people, don't you see? Without them, everything would begin a slow collapse, because there are no rich without poor. I'd be all for opening up the borders if I could be guaranteed that we wouldn't be letting in a lot of people who are willing to ignore our rules and claim ignorance. But sadly we can't. And I don't think I can wait for their children's children to be the ones following the rules, because by then I'd be dead.
How about instead of yelling at all our failures in stopping illegal immigration, we think about creating a forced naturalization process that works. You can't stop the guys who are hiding in that boat perhaps, but once they are here and they are identified you could force them to learn what is required of them to be good rule abiding citizens.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... Something to think about yes, but why not put more effort into preventing the illegals anyways. Oh yeah! That's because you encourage it and even create booklets giving tips on how to succeed.
I'm just a simple guy that expects people to follow the law. And simply put they are immigrating here illegally. This makes their actions bad. This means we should take measures to curb these bad acts.
So if somebody breaks the law, it's an automatic evil act? That's ridiculous. These people haven't done anything to you, they just want a damn job so they can support their family or pay their fiancé's family their dowry.
Christ, law is separate from passion, but the lawmakers aren't. Let's put that into play.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who wouldnt, they employ volunteers who may have dubious intention. Hell, if they wanted to waste their time doing that, I figure it may be a hint towards their feeling about immigrants.
I love how the Mexican government willfully helps its citizens to cross the border illegally. They're concerned with whether or not the illegals will be abused by these volunteers... Something to think about yes, but why not put more effort into preventing the illegals anyways. Oh yeah! That's because you encourage it and even create booklets giving tips on how to succeed.
I'm just a simple guy that expects people to follow the law. And simply put they are immigrating here illegally. This makes their actions bad. This means we should take measures to curb these bad acts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Mexican government is worried that a vigilante group is hunting down its citizens. The Mexican government exists to serve the interests of its citizens. The Minutemen go against the interests of Mexican citizens.
Honestly, laws are in place for a reason. Why should this country have to "accomodate" people who willfully enter uninvited. It is totally ridiculous.
My name and fingerprints are in god knows how many law enforcement databases; I pay my taxes and do my fair share to contribute to society over here.
And sure there are those illegals who mind their own business and do some hard work over here etc. But you know, I don't buy into this whole "they'll do the jobs that nobody wants over here" idea.
Frankly if the job doesnt pay enough then by <b>market forces lets see some better wages that encourage U.S. citizens to do these 'unwanted' jobs, and not rely on a *nudge* *nudge* *wink wink* work force to do them for us. </b>
Edit: And if part of the solution is some sort of "temporary work visa" fine; but for god's sake lets start keeping track of these people.
Automatic no... Illegal yes... Bad yes...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These people haven't done anything to you, they just want a damn job so they can support their family or pay their fiancé's family their dowry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the US is not here to be their welfare system. Just because their country is not as prosperous does not mean they have any right to come to our country illegally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who wouldnt, they employ volunteers who may have dubious intention.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
May have? That's definitely reason enough to help their citizens break our country's laws. Besides, they've been helping their citizens commit crimes in our country before this was even done. So such a justification means nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I figure it may be a hint towards their feeling about immigrants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You mean the feeling that these immigrants should be expected to respect the laws of our country? What an amazing idea!
Well it appears we have a conflict of interests...if Mexico doesn’t want American vigilante groups guarding the border then perhaps they should discourage their citizens from coming her illegally.
And come on now we all know American government and interests > Mexican government and interests. Always. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, if Mexico would keep its crap on its side of the dotted line then we wouldn’t have the Minutemen to worry about.
Notice you don’t see our government doing anything to stop the Minutemen even though it could. They know many of the people in the Border States are at the breaking point; I wouldn’t be surprised if this gets messy soon.
Automatic no... Illegal yes... Bad yes... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, civil disobedience is wrong? Illegal != Bad.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, if Mexico would keep its crap on its side of the dotted line then we wouldn’t have the Minutemen to worry about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we can't keep them from crossing the border, then the Mexicans sure as hell can't do it.
They could help, or hell they could simply do nothing, but no they <i>encourage</i> it. They encourage their citizens to break United States laws.
They could help, or hell they could simply do nothing, but no they <i>encourage</i> it. They encourage their citizens to break United States laws. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you give some evidence of this? People have said this in the thread several times, but I haven't seen any evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I won't believe it until you prove it to me.
Christ, law is separate from passion, but the lawmakers aren't. Let's put that into play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Attacking the fact that some people have vested interests in this debate is not going to help an argument, and it's not fair to the people who are "passionate". I care because it effects me in a very direct manner. I assume many others feel the same way, including FilthyLarry.
Breaking the law = evil act? <b>No, it's an ignorant act, but ignorance and evil can accomplish the same ends.</b> An immigrant who drives without ever taking the test and gets in a wreck and kills someone because he never learned how is not an evil person, simply an ignorant one. But he still got someone killed. And don't be naive enough to think it doesn't happen. Not everyone on the road has license, some of them down here don't even seem to know what the Department of Public Saftey <i>is</i> let alone going down there and learning to drive appropriately.
Riddle me this, what harm are the "illegal immigrants" doing in wanting to migrate to the US? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Nite.
Because alot of them don't really want to be here; they just want what they can get out of the US. They have no loyalties to this country, and as such are a security risk and frankly an insult to the hard-working legal immigrants who go through the proper channels at great expense and personal sacrifice.
Whats the danger? Keep in mind the example set by China and Tibet. Part of China's plan to keep Tibet under control is to promote mass immigration of Chinese into Tibet. It is an attempt to wipe out Tibetan culture.
I am one of many legal immigrants that actually respect the US and am grateful to be where I am today. It annoys the hell out of me when I get stared at by people that I strongly suspect to be illegal and the get the whole "I hate you americans but I want your stuff" look. Honestly, these are not the type of people I want as neighbours and frankly I don't think many do.
And yes we understand that alot of them have families and so forth. I'm all for helping people in need but letting mass illegals through the border is not a responsible way to go about doing that.
If you want them here so badly, fine, but please ensure that you actually document them and grant them some sort of temporary work visa. It's generally a good idea to know who enters your country.
Here is one example: <a href='http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0101Comic01.html' target='_blank'>http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...101Comic01.html</a>
But seriously, first generation immigrants usually don't come to the US because they like the US, they come because their own country sucks, and they hope that the US would be a better place. Lesser of two evils, you see...
In any case, as long as they come here through designated checkpoints, and we get their stuff on the files, I see no problem why they shouldn't be here.
This is essentially a victimless crime. We just need a better way to allow them in here, and still have their data on the sheets.
But seriously, first generation immigrants usually don't come to the US because they like the US, they come because their own country sucks, and they hope that the US would be a better place. Lesser of two evils, you see...
In any case, as long as they come here through designated checkpoints, and we get their stuff on the files, I see no problem why they shouldn't be here.
This is essentially a victimless crime. We just need a better way to allow them in here, and still have their data on the sheets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay now that I can agree with. Get them in here legally, force them to naturalize so they don't break laws through ignorance, and everything's fine.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how do you figure?
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad I never said that.