I don't see why building a wall across the Mexican Border would be such a huge undertaking. The Chinese managed to do something similar thousands of years ago without the benefit of modern technology.
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins!
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 4 2005, 07:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 4 2005, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People seem very keen to ensure that people don't end up living at our standard.
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Intersting how every other country in the world can have "secure" borders, but as soon as the US tries it, were persecuting teh Mexicans.
The real problem is their own government <a href='http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0101Comic01.html' target='_blank'>which encourages illegal immigration.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see why building a wall across the Mexican Border would be such a huge undertaking. The Chinese managed to do something similar thousands of years ago without the benefit of modern technology.
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You'd have to build a wall 2000 miles long, complete with barbed wire and watchtowers, staffed with guards, facilities for the guards, and places for the guards to live. Then you'd have to worry about tunnels dug under the wall and you'd have to inspect the wall constantly for damage from explosives or mechanical implements. You'd have to worry about the economic impact of billions of dollars worth of resources being poured into a project that would hurt the American economy (no cheap immigrant labor for Walmart). You'd also have to worry about the reduction of trade between towns that face each other across the border and trade between the US and Mexico in general. You'd have to deal with the political ramifications of the wall (i.e. a **** off Mexican government and many **** off Mexican-Americans).
Is that really so much better than paying for social services for illegal immigrants (something that actually improves the lives of someone, as opposed to this wall)?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'd also have to worry about the reduction of trade between towns that face each other across the border and trade between the US and Mexico in general. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A wall would not prevent such things as such things happen through proper border crossings the vast majority of times. Now if the Mexican government decided to get **** because we're protecting our borders and did something to affect trade between us negatively, then they would lose far more than we would.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is that really so much better than paying for social services for illegal immigrants (something that actually improves the lives of someone, as opposed to this wall)? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. Yes it is.
As has been demonstrated in this topic most legal Mexican-Americans hate the illegals and I doubt they would be angered if we built a wall. Any illegals in the country who are angry are welcome to cause a scene, only makes it easier for us to find and deport them, as should be done.
The benefits to businesses by using cheap and illegal labor are of little to concern to most Americans...in fact pretty much any American who doesn’t own a major cooperation that can get away with such things. Prices may rise, but we would survive.
As for trade with Mexico, I don't see how this would affect it, the normal road ways would still be open, this would only harm illegal trade.
The Mexican government could get red in the face for all I care, they really have nothing of value and depend on us 20x more then we depend on them for anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 4 2005, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see why building a wall across the Mexican Border would be such a huge undertaking. The Chinese managed to do something similar thousands of years ago without the benefit of modern technology.
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You'd have to build a wall 2000 miles long, complete with barbed wire and watchtowers, staffed with guards, facilities for the guards, and places for the guards to live. Then you'd have to worry about tunnels dug under the wall and you'd have to inspect the wall constantly for damage from explosives or mechanical implements. You'd have to worry about the economic impact of billions of dollars worth of resources being poured into a project that would hurt the American economy (no cheap immigrant labor for Walmart). You'd also have to worry about the reduction of trade between towns that face each other across the border and trade between the US and Mexico in general. You'd have to deal with the political ramifications of the wall (i.e. a **** off Mexican government and many **** off Mexican-Americans).
Is that really so much better than paying for social services for illegal immigrants (something that actually improves the lives of someone, as opposed to this wall)? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's chat about Walmart for a second.
Is it fair for Walmart to be able to use illegal workers to undercut the competition? I don't think so. Not only that, but how much of the savings that Walmart achieves are passed onto Joe Schmoe the Walmart shopper? I suspect almost nil, with most of the savings simply filling greedy profit-driven pockets.
Maybe with a level playing field other like-minded businesses (who gasp, don't employ illegals) will have more market power.
The wonderful thing about having competition is that prices will in general only go so high. I think the overall economic impact of cutting illegal labour would be minimal, and we would survive as Reasa said.
About the wall: Since when has the US ever balked at a price tag when it comes to millitary type operations (see Iraq)?
It seems extreme but frankly I'd support the idea because of the ridiculous amounts of illegals that find their way into this Country.
Who cares about the Mexican government? They apparently don't respect us at all.
And yes helping people is a worthy and great cause; but even you I suspect would not exactly want people creeping into your home in the dead of night uninvited to stay a while now would you?
I don't think it's fair for Walmart to use underpaid, illegal employees. My point was that the economy would still take a hit.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it's fair for Walmart to use underpaid, illegal employees. My point was that the economy would still take a hit.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a question of respect for one. If you don't lay down a line and tell them not to cross, they will walk all over you.
On the other hand, it's the blatant ignorance of laws, increase in crime, drug trafficking and lack of education/refusal to become educated and naturalize.
A wall. Really. Come on. This is supposed to be serious, I though.
I don't think you all realize the work that is needed to send illegals back. You can't just run a bus back and forth from jail to border, to dump the illegals. There is a process. You catch, either jail or tell them the court date (if they do not goto court on given date, they become fugitives), and ship them back. There is also some loopholes that can deny an illegal to their country. If they have been rejected from their country (ex. their government denies their citizenship or banishes them from the country), then they cannot be shipped anywhere. They also cannot be given US citizenship (I'll check on the law later...there is a pending case like this). They are stuck in a limbo.
Now, there is no way to stop illegal immigration with our "open borders" policy. The US allows a certain ammount of people to immigrate here a year (once again, I can find out the specific later). However, everyone wants to come here for work. And, as you know, if someone is determined, they are gonna get as close as they can. Think of it like this: Your mom makes a pai (or caek, if you prefer <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). She gives your friends a piece, but not you. To make things worse, she puts the desert infront of you and says not to take any. Are you gonna try to get some? Yes. The US is the pie and the illegals are you.
And you cannot just shoot them, because that would **** off Mexico. Plus, dispite what you may think, the US doesn't kill everyone.
I am more than happy to elaborate more, if there is any confusion. I have family members that work for <a href='http://www.ice.gov' target='_blank'>ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)</a>.
They just need to do the damn paperwork save some cash and they'll be fine. Honestly I think it's for the good of everyone if they DO come in. I just don't think they should be coming in illegally.
Let's not forget, the immigrant isn't the problem, the illegality is. You want to come over? Fine. Do it right. Otherwise you deserve no pity.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it's fair for Walmart to use underpaid, illegal employees. My point was that the economy would still take a hit.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 4 2005, 11:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 4 2005, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They just need to do the damn paperwork save some cash and they'll be fine. Honestly I think it's for the good of everyone if they DO come in. I just don't think they should be coming in illegally. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said, there is a limit on people who can apply. There is a huge waiting list. If you were in their shoes, would you wait on that list, which is more of a lottery (so you may never get picked), would you wait or try and make it illegally.
That is the flaw of allowing people to immigrate to the US.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 4 2005, 11:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 4 2005, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They just need to do the damn paperwork save some cash and they'll be fine. Honestly I think it's for the good of everyone if they DO come in. I just don't think they should be coming in illegally. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said, there is a limit on people who can apply. There is a huge waiting list. If you were in their shoes, would you wait on that list, which is more of a lottery (so you may never get picked), would you wait or try and make it illegally.
That is the flaw of allowing people to immigrate to the US.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We <i>DID</i> wait on the list buddy. When my parents applied for our visas and then their citizenship. If my parents can wait, they can damn well wait too.
OK so it's tough to get in the right way, and it's scary because things are different. That doesn't mean you go around breaking the law.
<!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+Apr 5 2005, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Apr 5 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it's fair for Walmart to use underpaid, illegal employees. My point was that the economy would still take a hit.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration.
Immigration quotas are different for every region, that hardly seems fair does it? It seems like a matter of respect to me!
Raise the quotas. A lot. Immigrants don't hurt the US, rather, they provide a mainstay of industriousness and fortitude in a country of ever increasing complacency and stagnation.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It also takes a tremendous amount of resources and money and to pay for millions of illegals to get all kinds of medical care, educations, food stamps etc...and then not have them pay taxes.
Read this excellent article done by TIME magazine to see the effects illegal immigration has on small border towns and their facilities. They can't sustain the burden. This is what will happen to America on a national scale if we don't do something.
I don't have a problem with immigrants. I can understand them comming here seeking a better life for their families, but it's illegal immigrants that I despise. The legal immigrants usually try and to as stated MANY times before, intigrate into the country. I believe if you're going to live in a country you NEED to learn the language so you CAN communicate with the natives a lot easier. I'm not saying get rid of your culture, FAR from it. Just learn to make life simplier for both sides and bend a bit. If I would be working with hispanics, or Asians or any other type of immigrant trying to learn the language for an extended period of time, I would learn some of the language for that particular job to make it easier for both of us. It's all about comprimise. But with many of the illegals, they don't want to compromise anywhere, they want you to meet them on their side of the line and break your back so they can live an easier life than you can. But when you have to deal with people on a regular basis, the general public, you can't help but form prejudices on people from stereotypes of them because that's all you see, the stereotypes and bad side. Not enough to make up for the good, which is what happens with a lot of Americans. Which is why you get people with negative images of immigrants, legal or not. One can't help but become a bit cynical when dealing with the worst of people. But that's an entirely different problem. Legal immigrants who work their rears off to get here and have a better life like Cold-Nite, CONGRATS! You went through all the hoops and jumps in the dog show and didn't give up, showing hard work and determination, more of what this country needs! As for the illegal immigrants, get off your rear, go get naturalized and TRUELY reap the benefits of being an American instead of sitting on your rear, sucking much needed money for welfare and SS for those that TRUELY can't help it and be an AMERICAN.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 5 2005, 02:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 5 2005, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It also takes a tremendous amount of resources and money and to pay for millions of illegals to get all kinds of medical care, educations, food stamps etc...and then not have them pay taxes.
Read this excellent article done by TIME magazine to see the effects illegal immigration has on small border towns and their facilities. They can't sustain the burden. This is what will happen to America on a national scale if we don't do something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're taking my quote out of context. He compared keeping my door shut to building a wall, which I refuted.
Also, I'd rather spend money on social services for illegal immigrants than to spend the money on a huge wall. I do prefer a policy that allows a very large number of immigrants in, so we won't have to worry about the semantics of illegality.
I can't read the article, because it requires a subscription.
Oh noes teh illegal immagrants r gonna kill r Amerikan kulture!!! whatevar shall we d0!??!!?
Pfft, nativist sentiment dismissed. There's never been a minority large enough to "take over" American culture. As always, stuff will be thrown into the melting pot, that's it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 5 2005, 02:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 5 2005, 02:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh noes teh illegal immagrants r gonna kill r Amerikan kulture!!! whatevar shall we d0!??!!?
Pfft, nativist sentiment dismissed. There's never been a minority large enough to "take over" American culture. As always, stuff will be thrown into the melting pot, that's it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
Also, without immigrants, where would we get good Mexican/Italian/Asian food? Have you ever tried getting these foods in other countries, like England or Norway? It tastes like crap there.
The wall is one thing. But I think a real solution would be to increase our quotas of immigrants and force naturalize them. You can come in, but prepared to be force educated on all our laws, our language, our customs and such.
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 5 2005, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 5 2005, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The wall is one thing. But I think a real solution would be to increase our quotas of immigrants and force naturalize them. You can come in, but prepared to be force educated on all our laws, our language, our customs and such.
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How about just the laws and the language? Forcing our customs on them goes too far.
Yeah, right - there is no way to force our language on anyone.
A simple case in point - I live in Minnesota - a far cry from the mexican boarder. I went to a local thrift store, not 3 miles from my house. Through my short stay in that store, I didn't hear a single word in english. Even the woman who rang up my purchase didn't have the courtesy to quit talking to her neighbor in spanish while she assisted me.
This isn't me accusing her of being illegal - this is me saying that the melting pot isn't hot enough.
This is just my opinion now but it does seem that the Hispanic immigrants, the illegals in particular, are not integrating as well as previous migrants from past waves.
Of course our detrimental liberal polices are not helping. Why should anyone bother to learn English when all the nice American citizens have to have 3-4 years of Spanish (Edit: You can pick other languages in some places but the schools in my city only offered Spanish) to get into most colleges? Why should anyone bother to learn English when every product made now-a-days has a Spanish label just as large as the English one. “Press 2 for English.” Anyone?
Clearly we are at fault...my mother should have made Spanish my language from birth, would have made life easier.
Your pitiful, singular sob stories really don't move me to tears.
And you guys obviously don't know enough of your American history, seeing as many immigrants (especially Germans and Italians in the cities) lived in their own areas and spoke their own languages for decades before finally integrating.
Blah blah, nativist sentiment, blah blah.
If you seriously think that the majority of us speak Spanish as our primary language, that's retarded. Of course the vast majority of Americans speak English the vast majority of their time.
Yes, the Hispanics are taking over our country! OMGZORZ! FIRE UP THE GULAGS!
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 5 2005, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 5 2005, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The wall is one thing. But I think a real solution would be to increase our quotas of immigrants and force naturalize them. You can come in, but prepared to be force educated on all our laws, our language, our customs and such.
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about just the laws and the language? Forcing our customs on them goes too far. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll give you a silly little anecdote.
--------------- One day at the grocery store, my mother was buying the weeks necessities. She went to the check out line and chatted away with the clerk there, because that's just the way she is. They had a jolly old time of things and soon everything was rung up. My mother payed for it, and used her preferred card for the discount rate on the majority of the food. As she started to pull the cart out and leave she heard a noise behind her. "Psst. Psst." The guy behind her in line was apparently calling her over. Like you would call a dog I guess. I don't know. He started speaking in Spanish but my mother of course didn't know anything. She did however realize that he wanted to use her preferred card. She became angry at his lack of manners and walked off. ---------------
Now I don't know what prompted him to think he could, but I understand that in latin culture there is a strong sense of community and most assume that if they see another latino individual, they have a sense of brotherhood. That's all well and good, but it doesn't apply here. Privacy and boundaries are something that we have here that many immigrants don't understand. This is a custom they must learn here, otherwise they will be taken advantage of. And they will aggravate others.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 5 2005, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 5 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, right - there is no way to force our language on anyone.
A simple case in point - I live in Minnesota - a far cry from the mexican boarder. I went to a local thrift store, not 3 miles from my house. Through my short stay in that store, I didn't hear a single word in english. Even the woman who rang up my purchase didn't have the courtesy to quit talking to her neighbor in spanish while she assisted me.
This isn't me accusing her of being illegal - this is me saying that the melting pot isn't hot enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you care what language someone speaks, as long as you can communicate with that person? I've been in stores where the clerks spend all their time talking to each other (in English) without saying a word to me, but, although rude, it didn't bother me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One day at the grocery store, my mother was buying the weeks necessities. She went to the check out line and chatted away with the clerk there, because that's just the way she is. They had a jolly old time of things and soon everything was rung up. My mother payed for it, and used her preferred card for the discount rate on the majority of the food. As she started to pull the cart out and leave she heard a noise behind her. "Psst. Psst." The guy behind her in line was apparently calling her over. Like you would call a dog I guess. I don't know. He started speaking in Spanish but my mother of course didn't know anything. She did however realize that he wanted to use her preferred card. She became angry at his lack of manners and walked off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is just an example of an **** rather than an example of the latino community.
How would you guys feel if the government told you that you had to live your life in an "American" way? I know I would feel oppressed if they did that. So why should it be done to immigrants? As long as they follow our laws and they can communicate with me, I don't really care what kind of lifestyle they lead.
These are anectodal arguments anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is just my opinion now but it does seem that the Hispanic immigrants, the illegals in particular, are not integrating as well as previous migrants from past waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever heard of Irish, German, Polish, or Jewish ghettos? In the early 20th and late 19th centuries, there were large sections of the major cities where people lived with non-American customs and non-English languages (although the Irish speak English). Yet, there are almost no German-, Polish-, or Jewish-Americans that don't speak English and don't mostly follow American customs. This is why Rapier7 is calling you a nativist.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think this is just an example of an **** rather than an example of the latino community.
How would you guys feel if the government told you that you had to live your life in an "American" way? I know I would feel oppressed if they did that. So why should it be done to immigrants? As long as they follow our laws and they can communicate with me, I don't really care what kind of lifestyle they lead.
These are anectodal arguments anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well all I'm trying to say is that those are the customs and societal norms that we have to get them to understand.
I am not endorsing the same sort of sh*t we did to Native Americans to naturalize them. Were we go into their homes and even make sure they have sex the "right" way. I'm not some sort of extremist. All I'm saying is they have to learn boundaries.
This guy in my case is NOT an asshat. In fact I'm not even angry with him. He didn't know, he was ignorant. That's all. To help him, we must remove that ignorance. We must educate him. Think on it.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+Apr 5 2005, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Apr 5 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 4 2005, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it's fair for Walmart to use underpaid, illegal employees. My point was that the economy would still take a hit.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I think you are being somewhat pedantic regarding my analogy. You seem determined to evade the thrust of my argument which is one of security.
Obviously someone (you or a former owner) decided that installing the door was worthwhile. And in order to close the door it must first be installed correct? (Yes I know my analogy was not perfect, but please lets not play word games here).
I feel that illegal immigrants are a security risk whereas apparently you do not.
All I'm saying is that it seems strange that you want to secure your home but not your country.
<!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+Apr 5 2005, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Apr 5 2005, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I think you are being somewhat pedantic regarding my analogy. You seem determined to evade the thrust of my argument which is one of security.
Obviously someone (you or a former owner) decided that installing the door was worthwhile. And in order to close the door it must first be installed correct? (Yes I know my analogy was not perfect, but please lets not play word games here).
I feel that illegal immigrants are a security risk whereas apparently you do not.
All I'm saying is that it seems strange that you want to secure your home but not your country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. However, I don't think that the illegal immigrants are security risks, themselves, but their presence suggests that it is easy for a terrorist to enter into the country. I don't see why a terrorist can't entry the country legally, like most (if not all) of the 9/11 terrorists did.
We would also have to build a wall between America and Canada and have constant patrols along the entirety of our coastline. I think that spending the money on social services would improve the quality of life for Americans more than walls would.
Comments
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins!
Shoot them if they try to come but occasionally send them some money if they are willing to make us sneakers and coffee, seems to be the general idea. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Intersting how every other country in the world can have "secure" borders, but as soon as the US tries it, were persecuting teh Mexicans.
The real problem is their own government <a href='http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0101Comic01.html' target='_blank'>which encourages illegal immigration.</a>
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd have to build a wall 2000 miles long, complete with barbed wire and watchtowers, staffed with guards, facilities for the guards, and places for the guards to live. Then you'd have to worry about tunnels dug under the wall and you'd have to inspect the wall constantly for damage from explosives or mechanical implements. You'd have to worry about the economic impact of billions of dollars worth of resources being poured into a project that would hurt the American economy (no cheap immigrant labor for Walmart). You'd also have to worry about the reduction of trade between towns that face each other across the border and trade between the US and Mexico in general. You'd have to deal with the political ramifications of the wall (i.e. a **** off Mexican government and many **** off Mexican-Americans).
Is that really so much better than paying for social services for illegal immigrants (something that actually improves the lives of someone, as opposed to this wall)?
A wall would not prevent such things as such things happen through proper border crossings the vast majority of times. Now if the Mexican government decided to get **** because we're protecting our borders and did something to affect trade between us negatively, then they would lose far more than we would.
Yes. Yes it is.
As has been demonstrated in this topic most legal Mexican-Americans hate the illegals and I doubt they would be angered if we built a wall.
Any illegals in the country who are angry are welcome to cause a scene, only makes it easier for us to find and deport them, as should be done.
The benefits to businesses by using cheap and illegal labor are of little to concern to most Americans...in fact pretty much any American who doesn’t own a major cooperation that can get away with such things. Prices may rise, but we would survive.
As for trade with Mexico, I don't see how this would affect it, the normal road ways would still be open, this would only harm illegal trade.
The Mexican government could get red in the face for all I care, they really have nothing of value and depend on us 20x more then we depend on them for anything.
We could even pay the Mexicans to build it for us, that way everybody wins! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd have to build a wall 2000 miles long, complete with barbed wire and watchtowers, staffed with guards, facilities for the guards, and places for the guards to live. Then you'd have to worry about tunnels dug under the wall and you'd have to inspect the wall constantly for damage from explosives or mechanical implements. You'd have to worry about the economic impact of billions of dollars worth of resources being poured into a project that would hurt the American economy (no cheap immigrant labor for Walmart). You'd also have to worry about the reduction of trade between towns that face each other across the border and trade between the US and Mexico in general. You'd have to deal with the political ramifications of the wall (i.e. a **** off Mexican government and many **** off Mexican-Americans).
Is that really so much better than paying for social services for illegal immigrants (something that actually improves the lives of someone, as opposed to this wall)? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's chat about Walmart for a second.
Is it fair for Walmart to be able to use illegal workers to undercut the competition? I don't think so. Not only that, but how much of the savings that Walmart achieves are passed onto Joe Schmoe the Walmart shopper? I suspect almost nil, with most of the savings simply filling greedy profit-driven pockets.
Maybe with a level playing field other like-minded businesses (who gasp, don't employ illegals) will have more market power.
The wonderful thing about having competition is that prices will in general only go so high. I think the overall economic impact of cutting illegal labour would be minimal, and we would survive as Reasa said.
About the wall:
Since when has the US ever balked at a price tag when it comes to millitary type operations (see Iraq)?
It seems extreme but frankly I'd support the idea because of the ridiculous amounts of illegals that find their way into this Country.
Who cares about the Mexican government? They apparently don't respect us at all.
And yes helping people is a worthy and great cause; but even you I suspect would not exactly want people creeping into your home in the dead of night uninvited to stay a while now would you?
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea?
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a question of respect for one. If you don't lay down a line and tell them not to cross, they will walk all over you.
On the other hand, it's the blatant ignorance of laws, increase in crime, drug trafficking and lack of education/refusal to become educated and naturalize.
I don't think you all realize the work that is needed to send illegals back. You can't just run a bus back and forth from jail to border, to dump the illegals. There is a process. You catch, either jail or tell them the court date (if they do not goto court on given date, they become fugitives), and ship them back. There is also some loopholes that can deny an illegal to their country. If they have been rejected from their country (ex. their government denies their citizenship or banishes them from the country), then they cannot be shipped anywhere. They also cannot be given US citizenship (I'll check on the law later...there is a pending case like this). They are stuck in a limbo.
Now, there is no way to stop illegal immigration with our "open borders" policy. The US allows a certain ammount of people to immigrate here a year (once again, I can find out the specific later). However, everyone wants to come here for work. And, as you know, if someone is determined, they are gonna get as close as they can. Think of it like this: Your mom makes a pai (or caek, if you prefer <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). She gives your friends a piece, but not you. To make things worse, she puts the desert infront of you and says not to take any. Are you gonna try to get some? Yes. The US is the pie and the illegals are you.
And you cannot just shoot them, because that would **** off Mexico. Plus, dispite what you may think, the US doesn't kill everyone.
I am more than happy to elaborate more, if there is any confusion. I have family members that work for <a href='http://www.ice.gov' target='_blank'>ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)</a>.
Let's not forget, the immigrant isn't the problem, the illegality is. You want to come over? Fine. Do it right. Otherwise you deserve no pity.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea?
As I said, there is a limit on people who can apply. There is a huge waiting list. If you were in their shoes, would you wait on that list, which is more of a lottery (so you may never get picked), would you wait or try and make it illegally.
That is the flaw of allowing people to immigrate to the US.
As I said, there is a limit on people who can apply. There is a huge waiting list. If you were in their shoes, would you wait on that list, which is more of a lottery (so you may never get picked), would you wait or try and make it illegally.
That is the flaw of allowing people to immigrate to the US.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We <i>DID</i> wait on the list buddy. When my parents applied for our visas and then their citizenship. If my parents can wait, they can damn well wait too.
OK so it's tough to get in the right way, and it's scary because things are different. That doesn't mean you go around breaking the law.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration.
Immigration quotas are different for every region, that hardly seems fair does it? It seems like a matter of respect to me!
Raise the quotas. A lot. Immigrants don't hurt the US, rather, they provide a mainstay of industriousness and fortitude in a country of ever increasing complacency and stagnation.
It also takes a tremendous amount of resources and money and to pay for millions of illegals to get all kinds of medical care, educations, food stamps etc...and then not have them pay taxes.
<a href='http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101040920,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101040920,00.html</a>
Read this excellent article done by TIME magazine to see the effects illegal immigration has on small border towns and their facilities. They can't sustain the burden. This is what will happen to America on a national scale if we don't do something.
It also takes a tremendous amount of resources and money and to pay for millions of illegals to get all kinds of medical care, educations, food stamps etc...and then not have them pay taxes.
<a href='http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101040920,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101040920,00.html</a>
Read this excellent article done by TIME magazine to see the effects illegal immigration has on small border towns and their facilities. They can't sustain the burden. This is what will happen to America on a national scale if we don't do something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're taking my quote out of context. He compared keeping my door shut to building a wall, which I refuted.
Also, I'd rather spend money on social services for illegal immigrants than to spend the money on a huge wall. I do prefer a policy that allows a very large number of immigrants in, so we won't have to worry about the semantics of illegality.
I can't read the article, because it requires a subscription.
Pfft, nativist sentiment dismissed. There's never been a minority large enough to "take over" American culture. As always, stuff will be thrown into the melting pot, that's it.
Pfft, nativist sentiment dismissed. There's never been a minority large enough to "take over" American culture. As always, stuff will be thrown into the melting pot, that's it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
Also, without immigrants, where would we get good Mexican/Italian/Asian food? Have you ever tried getting these foods in other countries, like England or Norway? It tastes like crap there.
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine.
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about just the laws and the language? Forcing our customs on them goes too far.
A simple case in point - I live in Minnesota - a far cry from the mexican boarder. I went to a local thrift store, not 3 miles from my house. Through my short stay in that store, I didn't hear a single word in english. Even the woman who rang up my purchase didn't have the courtesy to quit talking to her neighbor in spanish while she assisted me.
This isn't me accusing her of being illegal - this is me saying that the melting pot isn't hot enough.
Of course our detrimental liberal polices are not helping. Why should anyone bother to learn English when all the nice American citizens have to have 3-4 years of Spanish (Edit: You can pick other languages in some places but the schools in my city only offered Spanish) to get into most colleges? Why should anyone bother to learn English when every product made now-a-days has a Spanish label just as large as the English one. “Press 2 for English.” Anyone?
Clearly we are at fault...my mother should have made Spanish my language from birth, would have made life easier.
And you guys obviously don't know enough of your American history, seeing as many immigrants (especially Germans and Italians in the cities) lived in their own areas and spoke their own languages for decades before finally integrating.
Blah blah, nativist sentiment, blah blah.
If you seriously think that the majority of us speak Spanish as our primary language, that's retarded. Of course the vast majority of Americans speak English the vast majority of their time.
Yes, the Hispanics are taking over our country! OMGZORZ! FIRE UP THE GULAGS!
Once they know what they can and can't do, and have gained some respect for authority, then they'll be just fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about just the laws and the language? Forcing our customs on them goes too far. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll give you a silly little anecdote.
---------------
One day at the grocery store, my mother was buying the weeks necessities. She went to the check out line and chatted away with the clerk there, because that's just the way she is. They had a jolly old time of things and soon everything was rung up. My mother payed for it, and used her preferred card for the discount rate on the majority of the food. As she started to pull the cart out and leave she heard a noise behind her. "Psst. Psst." The guy behind her in line was apparently calling her over. Like you would call a dog I guess. I don't know. He started speaking in Spanish but my mother of course didn't know anything. She did however realize that he wanted to use her preferred card. She became angry at his lack of manners and walked off.
---------------
Now I don't know what prompted him to think he could, but I understand that in latin culture there is a strong sense of community and most assume that if they see another latino individual, they have a sense of brotherhood. That's all well and good, but it doesn't apply here. Privacy and boundaries are something that we have here that many immigrants don't understand. This is a custom they must learn here, otherwise they will be taken advantage of. And they will aggravate others.
A simple case in point - I live in Minnesota - a far cry from the mexican boarder. I went to a local thrift store, not 3 miles from my house. Through my short stay in that store, I didn't hear a single word in english. Even the woman who rang up my purchase didn't have the courtesy to quit talking to her neighbor in spanish while she assisted me.
This isn't me accusing her of being illegal - this is me saying that the melting pot isn't hot enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you care what language someone speaks, as long as you can communicate with that person? I've been in stores where the clerks spend all their time talking to each other (in English) without saying a word to me, but, although rude, it didn't bother me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One day at the grocery store, my mother was buying the weeks necessities. She went to the check out line and chatted away with the clerk there, because that's just the way she is. They had a jolly old time of things and soon everything was rung up. My mother payed for it, and used her preferred card for the discount rate on the majority of the food. As she started to pull the cart out and leave she heard a noise behind her. "Psst. Psst." The guy behind her in line was apparently calling her over. Like you would call a dog I guess. I don't know. He started speaking in Spanish but my mother of course didn't know anything. She did however realize that he wanted to use her preferred card. She became angry at his lack of manners and walked off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is just an example of an **** rather than an example of the latino community.
How would you guys feel if the government told you that you had to live your life in an "American" way? I know I would feel oppressed if they did that. So why should it be done to immigrants? As long as they follow our laws and they can communicate with me, I don't really care what kind of lifestyle they lead.
These are anectodal arguments anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is just my opinion now but it does seem that the Hispanic immigrants, the illegals in particular, are not integrating as well as previous migrants from past waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever heard of Irish, German, Polish, or Jewish ghettos? In the early 20th and late 19th centuries, there were large sections of the major cities where people lived with non-American customs and non-English languages (although the Irish speak English). Yet, there are almost no German-, Polish-, or Jewish-Americans that don't speak English and don't mostly follow American customs. This is why Rapier7 is calling you a nativist.
How would you guys feel if the government told you that you had to live your life in an "American" way? I know I would feel oppressed if they did that. So why should it be done to immigrants? As long as they follow our laws and they can communicate with me, I don't really care what kind of lifestyle they lead.
These are anectodal arguments anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well all I'm trying to say is that those are the customs and societal norms that we have to get them to understand.
I am not endorsing the same sort of sh*t we did to Native Americans to naturalize them. Were we go into their homes and even make sure they have sex the "right" way. I'm not some sort of extremist. All I'm saying is they have to learn boundaries.
This guy in my case is NOT an asshat. In fact I'm not even angry with him. He didn't know, he was ignorant. That's all. To help him, we must remove that ignorance. We must educate him. Think on it.
I'm curious. What exactly are the illegal immigrants doing that is so detrimental to the US, which would make putting up a huge, expensive wall a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly, are the people around you doing that is so detrimental to your sense of security, which would make closing the front door to your home a good idea? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is that it takes 1 second and $0 to close my front door, while it takes a tremendous amount of resources to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think you are being somewhat pedantic regarding my analogy. You seem determined to evade the thrust of my argument which is one of security.
Obviously someone (you or a former owner) decided that installing the door was worthwhile. And in order to close the door it must first be installed correct? (Yes I know my analogy was not perfect, but please lets not play word games here).
I feel that illegal immigrants are a security risk whereas apparently you do not.
All I'm saying is that it seems strange that you want to secure your home but not your country.
Obviously someone (you or a former owner) decided that installing the door was worthwhile. And in order to close the door it must first be installed correct? (Yes I know my analogy was not perfect, but please lets not play word games here).
I feel that illegal immigrants are a security risk whereas apparently you do not.
All I'm saying is that it seems strange that you want to secure your home but not your country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. However, I don't think that the illegal immigrants are security risks, themselves, but their presence suggests that it is easy for a terrorist to enter into the country. I don't see why a terrorist can't entry the country legally, like most (if not all) of the 9/11 terrorists did.
We would also have to build a wall between America and Canada and have constant patrols along the entirety of our coastline. I think that spending the money on social services would improve the quality of life for Americans more than walls would.