I play both classes pretty even and I believe that the aliens do have a distinct advantage. It seems to me that the aliens are winning more games than the marines and yes I do believe that its because of the fade. Like theyve been saying they blink in hit someone blink around the room for a few mins and blink out for a second to regen. Then they repeat over and over and over. Ive always sucked at fade but Im finding now that I can actually hold my own against a few heavies and even some jetpackers. So I belive the fade has been buffed a bit much. Just my opinion though.
Fades are only as good as the Marine team can aim and use teamwork. Fades can get annihilated by 2 guys easily. That is if they use their heads and also aim at the same time. Something you don't see to well in pubs. Which you'll see 6 Marines, 2 shooting the fade with the 4 others shooting the Marines and hitting nothing.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 10 2005, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 10 2005, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even in CAL, aliens are walking all over the marines. And two shotgunners CAN kill a fade in less than one second, but even amongst clans, you don't see that happening. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure you do, it's called a fade making a mistake.
Hey Ballisto. I play on your server, and he is absolutely right. Competent alien teams vs competent marines spells disaster for the marines. I've seen aliens improve off just controlling one res node and beating back an entire marine onslaught, but never a marine team recovering from one node. Lerks are nearly impossible to kill with LMG's since they can simply stay at range and spore the crud out of you, and then jump in, bite, fly away. Shotguns counter them easily, but when you have one node, shotguns are rare...
When one fade is loose in the game at 5 minutes, kiss victory goodbye. Hit and run, hit and run, thats all they do until you are dead. Whoops, cant take out that hive with shotguns anymore! Phase is gone, and so is the whole damn team.
I remember controlling 8 / 10 res nodes across the map, and we still lost. Why? One fade and one lerk just kill the whole team and all our nodes. Level 2 weapons along with plenty of shotgun distributions still didn't keep the team at bay, and even in groups of three those two alien types still murder the whole marine group.
Winning is nearly impossible it seems, but it can happen. If marines can secure as many nodes as possible and KEEP them secured (electrification is not worthless. Try a game where aliens have 2 res nodes and a fade is highly unlikely. All res electrified = bad news for alien team).
But in all the games I've played (and I've played several) CO is quite even since marines level up at their own pace, but NS is a whole different ball game. Aliens are winning a helluva lot more than marines are.
With the buff skulks have received, including the faster respawn if the game is big, marines can't match them.
Early game marines should be able to move almost anywhere and do whatever they want until fades push them back.
Now, skulks can contain the marines easily and they can't even expand out, or are able to expand, but before they can think of assaulting, a new hive is up.
To maintain any gains in big pubs marines need to move out in a large group to absorb losses, then lockdown the area to maintain it, then set up a PG.
In tourny, the best way really is not to be detected rather than fight if you want to cap rts.
<!--QuoteBegin-AUX Recoup+Apr 10 2005, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AUX Recoup @ Apr 10 2005, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I remember controlling 8 / 10 res nodes across the map, and we still lost. Why? One fade and one lerk just kill the whole team and all our nodes. Level 2 weapons along with plenty of shotgun distributions still didn't keep the team at bay, and even in groups of three those two alien types still murder the whole marine group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you've got 8 res nodes and you don't have the firepower to take out a fade or a lerk, then your marines can't aim worth crap.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades are only as good as the Marine team can aim and use teamwork. Fades can get annihilated by 2 guys easily. That is if they use their heads and also aim at the same time. Something you don't see to well in pubs. Which you'll see 6 Marines, 2 shooting the fade with the 4 others shooting the Marines and hitting nothing.
Fades are fine as they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a good point. If you watch CAL demos, then you'll see that Fades die to LMGs all the time. If Fades are made too weak, then aliens are gimped at high levels of play. If Fades are made too strong, then they are unkillable at low levels of play.
How about instead of leaning towards CAL videos, we look at average players on average servers? Clan servers would be a good place to start, and then move over to pubs, and finally whatever is left. I game on both (Tactical Gamers for the public server, and my On|E clan server) and I see marines winning less and less.
Marines can aim, its just that its nearly impossible to kill a Fade that simply blinks in, swipes once or twice, blinks out, heals up, comes back, rinse and repeat. Three marines with shotguns down, just like that. They never see it coming. All of this can be done in a minute or two.
Im sure most say "Well it keeps rambos from running off!" Well that's true, since there is no longer any more hive ninjas. Sensory gives aliens the ability to see every damn thing accross the map, and now aliens can see in the dark.
It seems the devs gave into complaints that "Aliens are too weak!" although they really were just fine. Back then, both marines AND aliens had to WORK for their victory. Now it's just "Save for Early Fade boys, and we will have this in the bag!".
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 10 2005, 05:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 10 2005, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The PG at purification? Weren't there already like...8 mines on that PG? I think like...3 skulks died there and a fade got severely hurt.
Plus, it's not just the fade. When you throw in two fades in the mix, with a lerk, and have two gorge support with an odd skulk, it'll easily overpower the 5 marines there, shotguns/hmgs and all. During the failed shipping tunnel siege, that was an excellent display of teamwork on the alien side.
I'm not saying that the slant is too heavily favored towards the aliens, but as for the marines, you have to outclass the aliens for a consistent win. The problem's exacerbated in pub play since you've got skulks that spawn in every four seconds with carapace, silence, celerity, cloak, focus throwing themselves nonstop at the marines.
Second hive up? Unless the alien team is onos free and you have your entire team outfitted with HMGs and HA, you can't realistically expect to win. The same goes for competitive play. Granted, if you say so, if those matches weren't that slanted (which I wouldn't say it was horribly biased), it was still alien wins all around until concentration dipped out in the third and fourth hours and you can't fade as well and reflexes spiral down the shatter, which hurts the Kharaa more than a marine.
3.0 final scales very well in both competitive and pub play, though still with an alien edge. But if you want my opinion? I just want stronger hand grenades. I can live with the bias (makes commanding marines to victory so much sweeter). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless, we didn't have enough mines on the PG. As for shipping tunnel, we were fine until the second hive went up. Oops. BTW, lower concentration hurts marines more than aliens because marines require greater precision. Now, to prove my point, if I were to go into a crowded marine start as a fade and do some standard attacking, even on a low skill pub, I'd still get chewed up pretty well. Now, if I go into the same room, but I start wildly pancaking instead of attacking, I will take a lot less damage. However, if this marine start was filled with, say, 5 guys with good aim, instead of 5 guys with crap and/or mediocre aim, I would get lit up and killed either while attacking <b>or</b> while pancaking. It's the marines, not the aliens.
That doesn't make sense at all, since when is it one fade versus five good guys who can aim? Not to mention there were several times when you and Mustang were against a pack of marine shotties and still were able to get in and out and swipe a few before the dust settled.
One fade and a lerk can lay an entire marine team to siege.
But, since you actually haven't done anything except put up a few counterpoints, let's force the issue:
Do you think that the game as it is is currently balanced and needs no tweaking?
it's both the fade and not the fade *shifty eyes* <b>Edit: I've rambled, go to the bottom for a conclusion.</b>
Whenever I am with a team of marines that actually works with me, we are always ambushing fades (and onoses to a degree) and either blocking exits or generally sending too much crossfire for it to deal with. They go down very quickly. This is on pubs too.
However when your team just stands huddled in one scared and shaking little group and tries to track a blinking fade into your area and back out, you're never gonig to be able to take it out are you?! When the games are like this the fade is far too powerful, especially when these people don't chase properly either.
The question is "is the level of competance in the game high enough to warrant telling people to learn to kill fades, or is it so low we need to artificially bring down the fades skill to a level where they can almost be dealt with by the average userbase" This would obviously take into account clan play and public play...the argument given by people that you won't make a game grow by making it so people don't have to grow as players is one that does stand out, it just so happens that it kind of clashes with an equally important argument that we can't have things at a state where aliens feel they can only win by having a good fade on their team, and (like other threadshave said) that that fade is too hard for them to bother using.
I see plenty of marine victories, but not against competant alien teams and not on maps that aren't inherently biased against (pub) aliens in certain situations (starting in cargo hive in veil for instance). Marines don't need a buff, however, aliens need a nerf. I know the argument is there that you shouldn't nerf things to bring them in line...but hell, the game is going so fast at the minute, second hives at 3 or 4 minutes, fades along with them.
Other problems are that alien teams dictate the flow of the game, and marines are on the back foot constantly (this is a reverse to pretty much all versions bar 2), they chamber quickly if they have any sense, and marines have to react very uniformly to counter as much as might happen as possible. They then have to battle skulks that from very early stages of the game are not only benefiting from inate regen but usually chamber advantages too...making them much better than the marines out there.
Someone had the ineresting prospect of nerfing alien starting res but also bringing the gorge evolve cost down, to both encourage more map control for aliens by more gorges early as well as it meaning it takes that little bit longer for fades to come along. To me the idea of just delaying the aliens mid-game by half a minute or a minute somehow would help the marines have a little more freedom at the start of the game to choose a different tech route rather than be confined into the most time effective one for the current release, as well as generaly give them a little more time to have a fighting chance at some map control.
<b>Conclusion:</b>
The fade is actually really weak when a team is cohessive enough to ambush and block. The question is "is the average team, accross clans and pubs, capable enough to deal with a fade roughly 50/50 (in one game, deal with them half the time, but not half the time)". If yes, then the fade is not a problem, if no then it <b>may</b> be <b>part</b> of the problem.
Marines win games when they control res, which to me seems a bit backwards since they were always kind of meant (in my mind) to have less control to begin with and to wipe out the growing threat. It works pretty much in reverse now, and if it doesn't go that way then aliens have won mostly by mathematics.
But no marine buff is needed, an alien nerf is. Bringing starting res for aliens down along with a drop of gorging cost would mean that aliens could be delayed ever so slighty at the start of the game from controlling the map so confidently (yes, I'm letting my vision of the game go with this) as well as meaning that plans to drop chambers early will not work so well...and ultimately meaning that fades, unchanged, will arrive a bit later in the game as well as that second hive...extending the start game out of the 3-4 minutes it is right now, and delaying the mid game.
Technically since only 2 things were really "buffed" for the alien team, then your "imbalance" lies with those. Even tho they are huge gameplay affecting things, they don't appear to factor much in your imbalanced argument. Fades are still the same as ever.
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 10 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 10 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: Some people commented that we [Exigent] could have won our marine half on caged if we had adequate mines on the puri phase gate when sewer was going up. Whether you believe that is up to you, but I'm trying to show that the rounds weren't as alien-biased as you think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that on the veil rounds you finally figured out that Terror sucks against mines. We, {LoC}, figured that out the night before when we scrimmed them on caged. Reloed to double in an effort to force a quick game. Spent about 250 res the whole game on mines, lasted about 18 minutes. They finally had to get something like 3 onoses to finish us off.
As to staying on topic, I'm inclined to agree with Darkfrost. I think the thought process (of those who think alien is overpowered) is that fades were somehow buffed. But they weren't. Fades just come earlier occasionally due to skulk upgrades.
Personally, I think the balance is just fine. The marines are trying to use strats that worked in Beta5, not all of them work anymore.
If the second paragraph doesn't make sense to you, just keep rereading it until your eyes bleed because I can't figure out how to reword it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Apr 10 2005, 09:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Apr 10 2005, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That doesn't make sense at all, since when is it one fade versus five good guys who can aim? Not to mention there were several times when you and Mustang were against a pack of marine shotties and still were able to get in and out and swipe a few before the dust settled.
One fade and a lerk can lay an entire marine team to siege.
But, since you actually haven't done anything except put up a few counterpoints, let's force the issue:
Do you think that the game as it is is currently balanced and needs no tweaking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course the game needs tweaking. It will always need tweaking. Look at starcraft, it's a very old game but they're still tweaking it. My point that I was trying to make is that when it comes to marines vs fades, skill will prevail. Fades were not changed at all in 3.0F compared to b5, and if you weaken fades, you will substantially weaken the alien game.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Just got done playing a few hours on linuxmonster.org server
marines lost 11 times in a row
On a light note, i won $240 from bets i made that we would lose from the beginning
I don't think anybody will pay up though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd just like to say that just because certain things are buffed doesn't mean they're the things causing the imbalance any more. Yes sensory got a buff that has greatly changed the alien game...it's not this that causes the imbalance though. Now it's the choice aliens have and the speed at which they can get those choices off the ground that are the problem.
I think that generally the game is very balanced until the mid game, which is when the fades start to come about. This is obviously why people complain so much about the fades, and being pubbers they will because <b>despite any claims that people that can aim can kill a fade, we're talking pubbers here</b>. I'll reitterate that before you can state "you need to just aim" which is NOT the easiest thing by far when a good fade is zooming around, you need to find out wether or not more people *can* combat (that is reduce their effectiveness significantly, not necessarly kill them) these fades than can't.
The alien mid game just hits too early, that's all. Marines are on ritalin all game and for now with little reward, give them a bit more time to do things. Don't give them more res to do things with (we've got that about right in my opinion), just give them more time in that start game period.
Perhaps Blink should be slowed alittle, so that fades cannot "dodge" as easilly. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Apr 11 2005, 05:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Apr 11 2005, 05:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The alien mid game just hits too early, that's all. Marines are on ritalin all game and for now with little reward, give them a bit more time to do things. Don't give them more res to do things with (we've got that about right in my opinion), just give them more time in that start game period. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you mean up the cost of fades then?
And the two game changes I was refering to: sensory wasn't one of them, the changesto sensory, if implemented straight into beta 5 wouldn't have made sensories any better as a first choice. Its free upgrades and inate regen that are the biggest gameplay changes, its these that have brought the alien midgame to 3 minutes 30 seconds.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Thats' why we should implement my idea in order to bring marine about Marine midgame faster as well.
My idea: Marines get get (50 + #of_marines times 15) res to start with, minimum 100 res.
This idea will also solve the prolbem of aliens spawning in WAY too quickly in large games compared to marines. Marines need to spend an additional 40 res just to keep up with alien spawn rates in really large games, while the aliens can start with 3 times more res. The comm spends twice as much on meds because he has more marines. All this means that marines no longer have the advantage in large games, and in small games the aliens get res faster anyways, so really the aliens are ALWAYS disadvantages now, like hwo the aliens were always disadvantaged back in b5, except if there were less 5 players on eahc team, in which case it's just dumb and aliens always win.
So, in a 6v6 game, marines start with 140 res and aliens get 150, and in a 12v12 game, marines start with 230 res, and the aliens get 300. Perhaps to counter-act early-game shotty rushes, shotguns needs to be researched at the armory for FREE, and it'll take 30 seconds.
Seriously, the fact that in most pub games I play now, 3 chambers are up before one minute (i.e before armor1), and the alien skulks with level 3 celerity or carapace just own all the PUB marines. I'm not even that good of a skulk and in 3.0f my I've gotten at least twice as many kills as aliens. I may have a gotten a bit better between version but not a 100% increase I'm sure.
The ridiculously good alien spawn rates AND the buffed skulks make alien early game at least equal to marine early game, and so the alien midgame comes faster than before, and the alien midgame is STILL as strong as it was in b5, while marine midgame got a slight nerf due to PG nerf and SG nerf. It's not really Fades...it's the entire alien game in general is that very strong.
I think giving marines more res will solve a LOT of problems...either that or further reduciton of building prices.
What I've seen so far, is that free upgrades=>more effective skulks=>more RFK=>faster hive/fades/onos. Either reduce the amount of RFK (or spread it evenly around the whole team instead of giving it all to the one super skulk), or increase the cost of higher lifeforms to slow up the alien midgame
The way it is now, aliens get more res from RFK now than before, so marines start to see 2-3 fades instead of 1. And if a fade can't take on a group of shotgunners, it can very effectively keep them busy while the rest of the team works on map control and putting up hives. Even a sucky fade can be a great distraction if it's smart enough to stay alive.
I think giving the comm more energy in the obs would even things out alot.
yup, <b>more energy in the obs</b>.
Time and time again, I see our siege bases fall, because we lose one marine after another, one welder and shotty after another. The siege is up, we're gaurding it the best we can, but the comm runs of of energy, and runs out of res from dropping meds. He can't afford another obs, and we wouldn't have time to build another obs anyway, with all the death and beaconing that's going on just to save the phase gate and turret factory. But if the comm could keep up his scaning and we didn't have to enter the deathtrap hive... then many, many, coordinated hive attacks would turn from losses to wins.
The siege nerf was great. In the past, siege destroyed an alien hive, simply because the aliens couldn't realistically heal anymore (stand next to a chamber and be blasted). That was overpowerd, so they made marines walk inside the hive and "spot". It ended up still being unfun for aliens who couldn't heal... so we got the no-damage-to-aliens nerf. But now the siege is basically useless because the marines still have to walk inside and spot with skulks that spawn much faster and have upgrades. In addtion, gorges can heal the hive without worry.
The spotting requirement should be greatly reduced by giving the commander more energy. This would save marine lives, allowing them to defend the TFac and phase... which I often see getting ripped up from behind as they go in to spot.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited April 2005
Given that the thread started out in the same manner as all the other 'aliens = overpowered' threads that are steadily making their way down the boards under the weight of a lock, then turned into suggestions on measures that can be taken to 'balance' the game... I see no redeeming qualities to keep this from suffering the same fate. Less, in fact, given that the first page recognizes the prior threads' existence, yet this one was still written.
Comments
Fades are fine as they are.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure you do, it's called a fade making a mistake.
When one fade is loose in the game at 5 minutes, kiss victory goodbye. Hit and run, hit and run, thats all they do until you are dead. Whoops, cant take out that hive with shotguns anymore! Phase is gone, and so is the whole damn team.
I remember controlling 8 / 10 res nodes across the map, and we still lost. Why? One fade and one lerk just kill the whole team and all our nodes. Level 2 weapons along with plenty of shotgun distributions still didn't keep the team at bay, and even in groups of three those two alien types still murder the whole marine group.
Winning is nearly impossible it seems, but it can happen. If marines can secure as many nodes as possible and KEEP them secured (electrification is not worthless. Try a game where aliens have 2 res nodes and a fade is highly unlikely. All res electrified = bad news for alien team).
But in all the games I've played (and I've played several) CO is quite even since marines level up at their own pace, but NS is a whole different ball game. Aliens are winning a helluva lot more than marines are.
With the buff skulks have received, including the faster respawn if the game is big, marines can't match them.
Early game marines should be able to move almost anywhere and do whatever they want until fades push them back.
Now, skulks can contain the marines easily and they can't even expand out, or are able to expand, but before they can think of assaulting, a new hive is up.
To maintain any gains in big pubs marines need to move out in a large group to absorb losses, then lockdown the area to maintain it, then set up a PG.
In tourny, the best way really is not to be detected rather than fight if you want to cap rts.
If you've got 8 res nodes and you don't have the firepower to take out a fade or a lerk, then your marines can't aim worth crap.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades are only as good as the Marine team can aim and use teamwork. Fades can get annihilated by 2 guys easily. That is if they use their heads and also aim at the same time. Something you don't see to well in pubs. Which you'll see 6 Marines, 2 shooting the fade with the 4 others shooting the Marines and hitting nothing.
Fades are fine as they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good point. If you watch CAL demos, then you'll see that Fades die to LMGs all the time. If Fades are made too weak, then aliens are gimped at high levels of play. If Fades are made too strong, then they are unkillable at low levels of play.
Marines can aim, its just that its nearly impossible to kill a Fade that simply blinks in, swipes once or twice, blinks out, heals up, comes back, rinse and repeat. Three marines with shotguns down, just like that. They never see it coming. All of this can be done in a minute or two.
Im sure most say "Well it keeps rambos from running off!" Well that's true, since there is no longer any more hive ninjas. Sensory gives aliens the ability to see every damn thing accross the map, and now aliens can see in the dark.
It seems the devs gave into complaints that "Aliens are too weak!" although they really were just fine. Back then, both marines AND aliens had to WORK for their victory. Now it's just "Save for Early Fade boys, and we will have this in the bag!".
A small marine buff would make it better. Maybe cheaper (but not faster) armory upgrade and strengthening HGs.
Plus, it's not just the fade. When you throw in two fades in the mix, with a lerk, and have two gorge support with an odd skulk, it'll easily overpower the 5 marines there, shotguns/hmgs and all. During the failed shipping tunnel siege, that was an excellent display of teamwork on the alien side.
I'm not saying that the slant is too heavily favored towards the aliens, but as for the marines, you have to outclass the aliens for a consistent win. The problem's exacerbated in pub play since you've got skulks that spawn in every four seconds with carapace, silence, celerity, cloak, focus throwing themselves nonstop at the marines.
Second hive up? Unless the alien team is onos free and you have your entire team outfitted with HMGs and HA, you can't realistically expect to win. The same goes for competitive play. Granted, if you say so, if those matches weren't that slanted (which I wouldn't say it was horribly biased), it was still alien wins all around until concentration dipped out in the third and fourth hours and you can't fade as well and reflexes spiral down the shatter, which hurts the Kharaa more than a marine.
3.0 final scales very well in both competitive and pub play, though still with an alien edge. But if you want my opinion? I just want stronger hand grenades. I can live with the bias (makes commanding marines to victory so much sweeter). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless, we didn't have enough mines on the PG. As for shipping tunnel, we were fine until the second hive went up. Oops. BTW, lower concentration hurts marines more than aliens because marines require greater precision. Now, to prove my point, if I were to go into a crowded marine start as a fade and do some standard attacking, even on a low skill pub, I'd still get chewed up pretty well. Now, if I go into the same room, but I start wildly pancaking instead of attacking, I will take a lot less damage. However, if this marine start was filled with, say, 5 guys with good aim, instead of 5 guys with crap and/or mediocre aim, I would get lit up and killed either while attacking <b>or</b> while pancaking. It's the marines, not the aliens.
One fade and a lerk can lay an entire marine team to siege.
But, since you actually haven't done anything except put up a few counterpoints, let's force the issue:
Do you think that the game as it is is currently balanced and needs no tweaking?
Whenever I am with a team of marines that actually works with me, we are always ambushing fades (and onoses to a degree) and either blocking exits or generally sending too much crossfire for it to deal with. They go down very quickly. This is on pubs too.
However when your team just stands huddled in one scared and shaking little group and tries to track a blinking fade into your area and back out, you're never gonig to be able to take it out are you?! When the games are like this the fade is far too powerful, especially when these people don't chase properly either.
The question is "is the level of competance in the game high enough to warrant telling people to learn to kill fades, or is it so low we need to artificially bring down the fades skill to a level where they can almost be dealt with by the average userbase" This would obviously take into account clan play and public play...the argument given by people that you won't make a game grow by making it so people don't have to grow as players is one that does stand out, it just so happens that it kind of clashes with an equally important argument that we can't have things at a state where aliens feel they can only win by having a good fade on their team, and (like other threadshave said) that that fade is too hard for them to bother using.
I see plenty of marine victories, but not against competant alien teams and not on maps that aren't inherently biased against (pub) aliens in certain situations (starting in cargo hive in veil for instance). Marines don't need a buff, however, aliens need a nerf. I know the argument is there that you shouldn't nerf things to bring them in line...but hell, the game is going so fast at the minute, second hives at 3 or 4 minutes, fades along with them.
Other problems are that alien teams dictate the flow of the game, and marines are on the back foot constantly (this is a reverse to pretty much all versions bar 2), they chamber quickly if they have any sense, and marines have to react very uniformly to counter as much as might happen as possible. They then have to battle skulks that from very early stages of the game are not only benefiting from inate regen but usually chamber advantages too...making them much better than the marines out there.
Someone had the ineresting prospect of nerfing alien starting res but also bringing the gorge evolve cost down, to both encourage more map control for aliens by more gorges early as well as it meaning it takes that little bit longer for fades to come along. To me the idea of just delaying the aliens mid-game by half a minute or a minute somehow would help the marines have a little more freedom at the start of the game to choose a different tech route rather than be confined into the most time effective one for the current release, as well as generaly give them a little more time to have a fighting chance at some map control.
<b>Conclusion:</b>
The fade is actually really weak when a team is cohessive enough to ambush and block. The question is "is the average team, accross clans and pubs, capable enough to deal with a fade roughly 50/50 (in one game, deal with them half the time, but not half the time)". If yes, then the fade is not a problem, if no then it <b>may</b> be <b>part</b> of the problem.
Marines win games when they control res, which to me seems a bit backwards since they were always kind of meant (in my mind) to have less control to begin with and to wipe out the growing threat. It works pretty much in reverse now, and if it doesn't go that way then aliens have won mostly by mathematics.
But no marine buff is needed, an alien nerf is. Bringing starting res for aliens down along with a drop of gorging cost would mean that aliens could be delayed ever so slighty at the start of the game from controlling the map so confidently (yes, I'm letting my vision of the game go with this) as well as meaning that plans to drop chambers early will not work so well...and ultimately meaning that fades, unchanged, will arrive a bit later in the game as well as that second hive...extending the start game out of the 3-4 minutes it is right now, and delaying the mid game.
*edit* this was to the topic, not pygmy.shrew
I think that on the veil rounds you finally figured out that Terror sucks against mines. We, {LoC}, figured that out the night before when we scrimmed them on caged. Reloed to double in an effort to force a quick game. Spent about 250 res the whole game on mines, lasted about 18 minutes. They finally had to get something like 3 onoses to finish us off.
As to staying on topic, I'm inclined to agree with Darkfrost. I think the thought process (of those who think alien is overpowered) is that fades were somehow buffed. But they weren't. Fades just come earlier occasionally due to skulk upgrades.
Personally, I think the balance is just fine. The marines are trying to use strats that worked in Beta5, not all of them work anymore.
If the second paragraph doesn't make sense to you, just keep rereading it until your eyes bleed because I can't figure out how to reword it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Its the pg. If the pg's cooling time be reverted back to 2 seconds, i think the A:M winning ratio gonna be 50:50 again,.
One fade and a lerk can lay an entire marine team to siege.
But, since you actually haven't done anything except put up a few counterpoints, let's force the issue:
Do you think that the game as it is is currently balanced and needs no tweaking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course the game needs tweaking. It will always need tweaking. Look at starcraft, it's a very old game but they're still tweaking it. My point that I was trying to make is that when it comes to marines vs fades, skill will prevail. Fades were not changed at all in 3.0F compared to b5, and if you weaken fades, you will substantially weaken the alien game.
marines lost 11 times in a row
On a light note, i won $240 from bets i made that we would lose from the beginning
I don't think anybody will pay up though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that generally the game is very balanced until the mid game, which is when the fades start to come about. This is obviously why people complain so much about the fades, and being pubbers they will because <b>despite any claims that people that can aim can kill a fade, we're talking pubbers here</b>. I'll reitterate that before you can state "you need to just aim" which is NOT the easiest thing by far when a good fade is zooming around, you need to find out wether or not more people *can* combat (that is reduce their effectiveness significantly, not necessarly kill them) these fades than can't.
The alien mid game just hits too early, that's all. Marines are on ritalin all game and for now with little reward, give them a bit more time to do things. Don't give them more res to do things with (we've got that about right in my opinion), just give them more time in that start game period.
Do you mean up the cost of fades then?
And the two game changes I was refering to: sensory wasn't one of them, the changesto sensory, if implemented straight into beta 5 wouldn't have made sensories any better as a first choice. Its free upgrades and inate regen that are the biggest gameplay changes, its these that have brought the alien midgame to 3 minutes 30 seconds.
My idea: Marines get get (50 + #of_marines times 15) res to start with, minimum 100 res.
This idea will also solve the prolbem of aliens spawning in WAY too quickly in large games compared to marines. Marines need to spend an additional 40 res just to keep up with alien spawn rates in really large games, while the aliens can start with 3 times more res. The comm spends twice as much on meds because he has more marines. All this means that marines no longer have the advantage in large games, and in small games the aliens get res faster anyways, so really the aliens are ALWAYS disadvantages now, like hwo the aliens were always disadvantaged back in b5, except if there were less 5 players on eahc team, in which case it's just dumb and aliens always win.
So, in a 6v6 game, marines start with 140 res and aliens get 150, and in a 12v12 game, marines start with 230 res, and the aliens get 300. Perhaps to counter-act early-game shotty rushes, shotguns needs to be researched at the armory for FREE, and it'll take 30 seconds.
Seriously, the fact that in most pub games I play now, 3 chambers are up before one minute (i.e before armor1), and the alien skulks with level 3 celerity or carapace just own all the PUB marines. I'm not even that good of a skulk and in 3.0f my I've gotten at least twice as many kills as aliens. I may have a gotten a bit better between version but not a 100% increase I'm sure.
The ridiculously good alien spawn rates AND the buffed skulks make alien early game at least equal to marine early game, and so the alien midgame comes faster than before, and the alien midgame is STILL as strong as it was in b5, while marine midgame got a slight nerf due to PG nerf and SG nerf. It's not really Fades...it's the entire alien game in general is that very strong.
I think giving marines more res will solve a LOT of problems...either that or further reduciton of building prices.
The way it is now, aliens get more res from RFK now than before, so marines start to see 2-3 fades instead of 1. And if a fade can't take on a group of shotgunners, it can very effectively keep them busy while the rest of the team works on map control and putting up hives. Even a sucky fade can be a great distraction if it's smart enough to stay alive.
And on scrims they only came at like 8 minutes, which I hardly all a "rush"
yup, <b>more energy in the obs</b>.
Time and time again, I see our siege bases fall, because we lose one marine after another, one welder and shotty after another. The siege is up, we're gaurding it the best we can, but the comm runs of of energy, and runs out of res from dropping meds. He can't afford another obs, and we wouldn't have time to build another obs anyway, with all the death and beaconing that's going on just to save the phase gate and turret factory. But if the comm could keep up his scaning and we didn't have to enter the deathtrap hive... then many, many, coordinated hive attacks would turn from losses to wins.
The siege nerf was great. In the past, siege destroyed an alien hive, simply because the aliens couldn't realistically heal anymore (stand next to a chamber and be blasted). That was overpowerd, so they made marines walk inside the hive and "spot". It ended up still being unfun for aliens who couldn't heal... so we got the no-damage-to-aliens nerf. But now the siege is basically useless because the marines still have to walk inside and spot with skulks that spawn much faster and have upgrades. In addtion, gorges can heal the hive without worry.
The spotting requirement should be greatly reduced by giving the commander more energy. This would save marine lives, allowing them to defend the TFac and phase... which I often see getting ripped up from behind as they go in to spot.
Adapt.
<span style='color:red'>*LOCKED.*</span>