Celerity is totally fubaring the hitboxes, a percentage decrease on the speed increase would allow bullets to register on celerity skulks and would decrease the insane early MC skulk upgrade combo.
Allow marines to survive 3 bites with starting armour, an advantage that is removed with a single parasite. (don't remember the exact math of that but it works out)
Make armour upgrades vs focus a worthwhile investment rather than a total waste of res which does NOTHING.
Replace cloaking.
Remove webs from combat
Then remove combat or limit the number of upgrades that aliens can take from each chamber, being a cara, regen, celerity, silence, adrenaline, leaping, focus skulks DOESN'T prepare you for classic.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+Apr 11 2005, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ Apr 11 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-gham+Apr 11 2005, 04:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gham @ Apr 11 2005, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the whole chamber viability thing has backfired a little. Now before I continue, my views are based on organised games, not random public games where it's difficult to draw decent conclusions imo.
<span style='color:orange'>SC</span> is not used as a first chamber by many clans simply out of respect (although the 3.02 changes try to compensate its still too powerful).
Focus needs toning down. Armour 2 is useless when facing focus fades. It's like a waste of res.
Don't give sof through the chambers. Force aliens to employ one or two sof guys.
<span style='color:green'>MC</span> and the early skulk is shocking, a combo of silence and celerity is too powerful.
That's about it for now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is the core problem with 3.0f balance. The armor and damage numbers need to be tweaked such that armor upgrades make more of a difference against focus with little or no change in #of hits required without it. Durability should be considered as well so the upgrades don't lose their effectiveness from one parasite or being spored for half a second. Another solution might be to make welders part of standard equipment through an upgrade (similar to hand grenades). This would increase marine longevity, encourage teamwork, and open up new decisions regarding the building the upgrade would be on (do you upgrade the armory or research welders?). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> DrFurious, did you happen to read my two threads in the "Ideas for future versions" sub-forum before posting here? :-p I'm glad others are coming to the same conclusions that I am.
One of the ideas is already in my sig. Basically, revert armor back to 1.04 style. It'll solve a whole bunch of problems.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Apr 11 2005, 06:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Apr 11 2005, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Celerity is totally fubaring the hitboxes, a percentage decrease on the speed increase would allow bullets to register on celerity skulks and would decrease the insane early MC skulk upgrade combo.
Allow marines to survive 3 bites with starting armour, an advantage that is removed with a single parasite. (don't remember the exact math of that but it works out)
Make armour upgrades vs focus a worthwhile investment rather than a total waste of res which does NOTHING.
Replace cloaking.
Remove webs from combat
Then remove combat or limit the number of upgrades that aliens can take from each chamber, being a cara, regen, celerity, silence, adrenaline, leaping, focus skulks DOESN'T prepare you for classic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or perhaps remove focus completely, and replace it with something else...like silence. Then give MCs something else. Without focus, SCs will no longer dominant as much as it does.
If focus goes what will the new players use?<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think you're right though.. some new ideas for upgrades are needed.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Also if anyone wants my post on why pt should involve clans PM me on here or quakenet #knife nick: G-</span>
Focus should not be removed, the aliens need the damage upgrade at least later on the games with 2 or 3 hives when marines have lots of armor/jp/ha. Just tune it down a bit... And why does focus take so little adre? Make it use more adre, it does more damage so why not?
Make it cheaper, and faster to research. Doing this will open up a whole new door to the marine tech.This upgrade is really worthwhile, but currently due to its cost and the time it takes to research, it just is not a viable option earlygame.
Making it cheaper and quiker to research will mean teams will actually consider it as an early game upgrade, which widens up the game from a strategical point of view.
At the moment teams really only do motion once everyting else is researched, and there is a lot of res to be thrown around. If its made cheaper, we will see it earlier (even chosen as the first upgrade for some games) during most matches, which will throw an extra spanner into the works for aliens.
Just a thought, cause at the moment motion itself is just about never used competitively. Sure its there, but make it accessable and usefull. Dont keep it as an addon upgrade like it currently is, but make it a must have upgrade.
This is one way you guys can make the game more open and unpredictable.
25 res and 1 minute research time? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ack no. MT is not a counter for sensory, sensory is the counter for MT. MT only counters DC and MC fairly well, and it is already overpowered for its cost and research time against those two chambers.
I'm curious as to what teams you have been playing with. The customary build order against an alien team that goes MC first is MT right after phase is finished recearching (if not before phase in extream cases), which is usually at the same time A1 finishes.
MT is the counter for silence and carapasc on skulks.
Adding 5 armor to Armor0 marines (3 skulk bites or 2 skulk bites and 1 parasite) and making Armor3 take 3 Focus Swipes would be an all-around buff to the marines without changing any game dynamics. I don't know if this would work, but I think that the game dynamics (free upgrades, and passive regen, for instance) are a lot better than they've been in a while, although the balance is a little skewed, so just changing a few numbers around would be a good thing.
The Sens upgrades need re looking at. sof is a good upgrade and fine, focus and cloak just remove elements of the game which make it enjoyable and **** balance, especially with sof being given in range of the sc's.
Welder upgrade = good idea, perfect replacement for the GL upgrade.
cheap fast MT would give the marines too strong an advantage, so NONO.
increase the damage of siege turrets as they arent strong enough for marines to make a viable comeback against 2 hives without HA or jp's.
the new maps need to have more simplicity to them and playability, currently they just seem like long winding coridoors with far too much bling to have any chance of a decent round in competative play.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* We're keeping the talk about how to playtest NS out of this thread.></span>
starting hives shouldnt have such a large factor on the outcome of a match (eg waste hive on tanith) *HI GRAHAM*. A system for mp_tournamentmode 1 giving the team ability to maybe vote a hive at the begining.
Make it cheaper, and faster to research. Doing this will open up a whole new door to the marine tech.This upgrade is really worthwhile, but currently due to its cost and the time it takes to research, it just is not a viable option earlygame.
Making it cheaper and quiker to research will mean teams will actually consider it as an early game upgrade, which widens up the game from a strategical point of view.
This is one way you guys can make the game more open and unpredictable.
25 res and 1 minute research time? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ack no. MT is not a counter for sensory, sensory is the counter for MT. MT only counters DC and MC fairly well, and it is already overpowered for its cost and research time against those two chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Swirl's right, MT is sort of a nice 'extra' thing if you're not in a hurry spending res on HMG's/welders/shotguns/phase tech/armory upgrade/arms lab. As it is, it doesn't become viably researchable until mid-late game. And while it doesn't fully counter SC, a built-in semi-wallhack is very useful regardless of chamber.
About focus: I think it could use some toning down. It makes a few things far harder than they should be, such as rushing/sieging a hive, or just plain old getting around the map (assuming he's accompanied by lerks). I liked the welder upgrade idea, but i'm not sure if it would all balance out. Worth a try though. --
Aside that, I feel there's two major problems atm.
1) Skulks. In b5, believe it or not, a0 marine vs vanilla skulk was just about a perfect balance. Perfect balance didn't mean "having an equal chance to take each other out on equal skill levels (even though it wasnt that far apart)", but more like "both having the capability to help their team reach a decent res situation mid-game". So now we got innate regen, and early/faster/free upgrades. Sending a lone guy capping west access? Nono, let's send two so they can hold each others' hand. Sending a shotgun duo to take down acidic? But comm, there's three skulks there i'm scared?
You could argue against it being fun to be a skulk in b5, but marines needed that early game advantage. They needed the ability to cap nodes in peace and maybe get an rt down within the first three minutes. What you get now is people getting owned left right and centre by celerity/silence skulks, and you'll be lucky if you get your rt's up. This early game imbalance carries on throughout entire rounds, wherein marines can't compete mid-game for obvious reasons.
2) Sieges. I was all for removing siege damage on lifeforms. It was random, lame, and crappy. But you know, you need that siege damage after all. A standard siege defense alien team will consist of a fade, lerk, gorge, rt-chewing skulk, and two spares. It'd be hard enough if you were playing 6v4 in that situation, let alone two extra gorges/attacking skulks/rt chewers. It was already hard to siege in b5, because of spores. But now, you're basically forced into the hive. Well, newsflash: You can't. The fade will act like a wall and pick off the stripped-off-their-armor marines due to spores. Gorges will heal the hive. It's impossible to do without HA, and good luck getting HA in time before an onos is up. In which case you need jetpacks. It's all unfair. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Can't you add back siege lifeform damage again, but remove the randomness of it all? You'd have to make the radius big enough though, so the gorges/lerks can AVOID it without going "but i was flying away from it wsnt getting hit before and i got blasted WTHux" , but not be close enough to heal etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allow marines to survive 3 bites with starting armour, an advantage that is removed with a single parasite. (don't remember the exact math of that but it works out)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would help alot, people might actually start parasiting marines also..
on another note id like a tweak in combat. Id prefe to see it reflect classic more and help newer players not get into as many bad habbits, maybe so they can improve there skills instead of just trying to frag ****. Currently it just has too many stupid elements which dont help develope the skills of newer players, such as cloak focus + mines.
Things along the lines of halfing the amount of levels for a start, make only 1 upgrade type for each chamber, can change the upgrades when you change lifeform, eg. limit onos to 1 upgrade, fade to 2 upgrades, lerk 3 upgrades etc.
so.. half the number of levels for everyone. limit aliens to 1 upgrade from each chamber.
Keep co_ as more of a training exercise for ns_ instead of a seperate game.
This would never happen but im saying it anyway. (it would also give late joiners a much better chance of having a chance)
The best ideas I've ever heard for ns, and I've been hearing and supporting them since mid b5 are:
1) +5 base armor for marines. A buff removed with a single psite. 2) Switch welders with hand grenades. Make nades dropable in packs, and welders a research in the armory.
About the seiges. I really like that the dmg to life forms has been removed. But without any healing on the hive it takes 22 seige shots to kill. This means that 3 is the optimal amount of seiges to drop, but that it takes 8 vollies to kill the hive. With at best 5 scans available in the obs, you need marines to sight the hive. Thats not even talking about the mc gorge healing his brains out.
The power of a seige shot needs to be upped, so that the seige cannons will actually kill the hive. If a marine team can get positioned, get the cannons up, and hold out long enough to make a dent in the hive, they deserve a better chance at having those cannons actually kill the hive.
Electricity is broken by the numbers. It takes too long to research, and costs too much. One or the other needs to be fixed, make it cost less or have it work faster. Right now if you do the numbers it is never mathematically worthwhile to elec.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Just prevent heal-spray from affecting the hive for say...10 seconds after it was hit by a seige. That'll give the seige a decent buff. Then, make seige cannons cost 10 instead of 15 :-p
free upgrades makes skulking fun again. waht ever you do dont remove it.
i like the 3.02 changes. improving balance by tweaking costs and research times.
currently 2 hives means an alien win. maybe removing 25-50 armor from the fade and making it cost 40res would aleviate alien midgame dominance. ' i'm still thinking we may be in the 'its to still to soon to tell' about balance. marines games have been improving steadily since 3.0f came out.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 11 2005, 08:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 11 2005, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just prevent heal-spray from affecting the hive for say...10 seconds after it was hit by a seige. That'll give the seige a decent buff. Then, make seige cannons cost 10 instead of 15 :-p <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Healing the hive should be a viable strat to stop sieges. Make the siege cannons more powerful/cheaper instead.
I agree with the idea of marines being able to spawn with welders. Right now welders are only ever given out along with shotguns/HMGs to Light Marines for the simple fact that 5 res per welder isn't viable to spend on even a minority of 'vanilla' marines. Definitely agree with switching grenades for welders. Keep the res cost & research time exactly the same as it is for grenades. Even without the other suggested buffs to marine armour this would drastically improve a Light Marines chances vs any lifeform with Focus upgrade.
I also think changing the marine armour values around somewhat could be beneficial. Level 3 Light Armour Marines die to 2 swipes from a Focus Fade. Level 1 Light Armour Marines die to 2 swipes from a Focus fade. Why would anyone spend the extra 70 res then especially if they intend to use Jetpacks?
I was thinking about Chamber innate abilities. Sensorys give passive cloaking & scent of fear within range. Movements give adrenaline & allow moving to the furthest hive or the nearest hive under attack. Defence give healing & ? Surely this means Defence chambers are needing buffed to be as equally viable as the other 2? In all the scrims I've played in & spectated in the last couple of weeks (since 3.0.2 came out/CAL-NS Finals were played) the number of clans I've seen taking DC for first hive chamber I can count on 1 finger & I've yet to see a clan taking DC as 2nd hive (if they go MC first they go SC next & vice versa).
Swiftspear why are you posting in "General Competitive Discussion" on a thread called "The Competitive Balance Feedback Thread" when you don't have any competitive experience in either scrims or matches?
[edit] I agree somewhat with phunktion in that it may be a little too early to tell especially with 3.0.2 only having been out for a week or so. A lot of good points come up in this thread however I feel we may need to wait a while before we can truly address the question of balance in competitive games. As the saying goes "Newbies Whine, <i>Veterans Adapt.</i>"
If aliens have the same number of kills as marines, they are most likely winning solid. If one skulk and one marine die, then the rine is out of play for a good 20 seconds in which he can't cap/kill nodes or aquire or hold a position. If a pressure team of 3 goes out and kills three skulks before they all die, but they don't kill the rt, they haven't done anything worthwhile. <b>Marines need a much higher kill count than aliens to be winning the game. </b>
2 conditions that define every game of NS since 2.0:
- Marines need a greater than 1:1 kill ratio
- Marines need a 2 (alien) : 3 (marine) node ratio
Both or one of these conditions must be satisfied to win... and if only one condition is met, it must be met heavily. Look at ANY game of NS where marines have lost, and it is because they failed at one of these two conditions. Either they can't kill stuff, or they run out of res and lack firepower to keep up with alien tech.
I have to agree with readding siege damage, I was someone who pushed for it to be removed but after seeing 4 gorges heal a hive againist 5 sieges and keep it at 100% then you kinda think it's a silly idea. All they have to do is buy time for any available higher lifeforms. If it was readded but without the total random damage as tjosan said then I think it'd really help.
And i still really like the idea about adding 5+ armour to allow marines to survive 3 bites or 2 bites and a parasite.
A2/A3 should take 3 swipes to kill or 2 swipes unless the commander medpacks his marine, something needs to be done because focus as it is has no counter except welders and welders can't always be used in a hectic combat situation. Focus removes any element of control that a commander had of keeping his marines alive and that needs to be readded in some way.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited April 2005
Thoughts...
Suggestion:
Raise upgrade chamber costs.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 <span style='color:yellow'>more</span> worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Besides removing focus completely, one way to help is to drastically increase fous energy use (maybe one swipe/bite costs as much as a parasite energy) so the aliens have a much harder time with energy management while using focus. Also this means focus fades will need HELP taking down structures (wow, you mean they actually can't do everything themselves? What an idea!). Another way is to drastically increase focus cool-down time. 5 seconds between attacks. this won;t hurt Focus fades *that* much but now there will be a *choice* to be made when skulks take upgrades. Right now Focus/celerity/leap skulks are godly, and this will make skulks think twice before blindly taking it. Combine this with an increase in the rate at which armor gets welded, and making welders an upgrade, will focus will not be the overpowered upgrade it is now.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually wouldn't mind a different version of motion tracking. It should be MUCH cheaper and quicker ot research, and it won't show the blue circles like it does now. You'd only see the red dots on the minimap, so you won't know *exactly* where the alien is.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> -SC is a viable first chamber if you place them before 1:00, otherwise MC>SC. -SC as firts chamber depends mainly on the map (eclipse and tanith spring to my mind)
Raising the upgrade chambers cost to 20 res means, that if one players wants to drop 3 dc/mc he will need 70 res. Thats nearly on onos and certainly more than enough to place a hive.
Raising the cost to 20 is only viable, if a single chamber grants acces to level 3 upgardes. This will weaken SC and MC but strengthen DC.
-SC network would be more expensiv -MC teleportation would cost 40 res instead of 30 -DC would be cheaper (20 res instead of 30)
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> -SC is a viable first chamber if you place them before 1:00, otherwise MC>SC. -SC as firts chamber depends mainly on the map (eclipse and tanith spring to my mind)
Raising the upgrade chambers cost to 20 res means, that if one players wants to drop 3 dc/mc he will need 70 res. Thats nearly on onos and certainly more than enough to place a hive.
Raising the cost to 20 is only viable, if a single chamber grants acces to level 3 upgardes. This will weaken SC and MC but strengthen DC.
-SC network would be more expensiv -MC teleportation would cost 40 res instead of 30 -DC would be cheaper (20 res instead of 30) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you've entirely missed my point.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
The entire point IS to slow down alien early game. I think 20 res may be a tad too much, but if we reduce alien starting res to 20, and then make chambers 15, that might work.
just to comment that I'd love to see the welder upgrade in ns - great idea imo. furthermore get rid of the handnades, with all the respect but when I'm comming I never upgrade them since they are totally useless, during a clanmatch nor on a pub.
Noticed some suggestions too about removing cloaking, I highly doubt the dev team will remove this so I'd just suggest to let the scan energy of the obs reload much faster and make the starting energy of the obs once again a bit higher.
In 3.0F (and the pre-betas too, for that matter) the senschamber became the ultimate "ns for dummies: kharaa edition". SoF within the SC's range remove any need of scouting chokepoints, focus removes the need for tracking marines closecombat as a skulk since you'll deal double damage anyway and cloak remove the necessity of ambushing since you are able to close the distance anyway.
When you combine this with people are already able to accomplish the above you end up with some serious balance issues since they can combine the skill they already posses with upgrades which eleminates any chance of them screwing up (SoF will never allow a marine-team to get a sneaky-pg, focus radically decrease the chance of a skulk not dealing damage and cloaking will set up perfect ambushes every time).
I do agree with most people in this thread that free upgrades for aliens cripple the marine-game and expansion a lot, however, I don't agree with them that skulk upgrades should remain free. I think that skulking has become all too easy with the free upgrades. I say that upgrades should cost one res, as proposed by NGE <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300&view=findpost&p=1415009' target='_blank'>here</a> .
Free welders might prove interesting, and I'm all for testing it. +5 startingarmour could also be a useful marinebuff that could be tested, as long as the effect is negated by a single parasite.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides removing focus completely, one way to help is to drastically increase fous energy use (maybe one swipe/bite costs as much as a parasite energy) so the aliens have a much harder time with energy management while using focus. Also this means focus fades will need HELP taking down structures (wow, you mean they actually can't do everything themselves? What an idea!). Another way is to drastically increase focus cool-down time. 5 seconds between attacks. this won;t hurt Focus fades *that* much but now there will be a *choice* to be made when skulks take upgrades. Right now Focus/celerity/leap skulks are godly, and this will make skulks think twice before blindly taking it. Combine this with an increase in the rate at which armor gets welded, and making welders an upgrade, will focus will not be the overpowered upgrade it is now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If all these changes were to be made focused would no longer be overpowered. Instead it would be made totally useless, which isn't what we're aiming for.
And Faskalia, if SC isnt a viable chamber after 1:00, then howcome they tend to drag the games out for eternity (well, atleast until the marines are almost fully teched and in many scenarios equipped with HA) if the marines doesn't manage to take down the scs [on pubs]?
I still think that SCs should cloak aliens and structures within range, but not the chamber itself. This would FORCE the alien-team to think more about where they place the chambers so they arent able to run around randomly placing SCs all over the map in the most retarded places. Cloaking as an upgrade should also be replaced with something else that makes the game less boring.
Comments
Allow marines to survive 3 bites with starting armour, an advantage that is removed with a single parasite. (don't remember the exact math of that but it works out)
Make armour upgrades vs focus a worthwhile investment rather than a total waste of res which does NOTHING.
Replace cloaking.
Remove webs from combat
Then remove combat or limit the number of upgrades that aliens can take from each chamber, being a cara, regen, celerity, silence, adrenaline, leaping, focus skulks DOESN'T prepare you for classic.
<span style='color:orange'>SC</span> is not used as a first chamber by many clans simply out of respect (although the 3.02 changes try to compensate its still too powerful).
Focus needs toning down. Armour 2 is useless when facing focus fades. It's like a waste of res.
Don't give sof through the chambers. Force aliens to employ one or two sof guys.
<span style='color:green'>MC</span> and the early skulk is shocking, a combo of silence and celerity is too powerful.
That's about it for now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the core problem with 3.0f balance. The armor and damage numbers need to be tweaked such that armor upgrades make more of a difference against focus with little or no change in #of hits required without it. Durability should be considered as well so the upgrades don't lose their effectiveness from one parasite or being spored for half a second. Another solution might be to make welders part of standard equipment through an upgrade (similar to hand grenades). This would increase marine longevity, encourage teamwork, and open up new decisions regarding the building the upgrade would be on (do you upgrade the armory or research welders?). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
DrFurious, did you happen to read my two threads in the "Ideas for future versions" sub-forum before posting here? :-p I'm glad others are coming to the same conclusions that I am.
One of the ideas is already in my sig. Basically, revert armor back to 1.04 style. It'll solve a whole bunch of problems.
Allow marines to survive 3 bites with starting armour, an advantage that is removed with a single parasite. (don't remember the exact math of that but it works out)
Make armour upgrades vs focus a worthwhile investment rather than a total waste of res which does NOTHING.
Replace cloaking.
Remove webs from combat
Then remove combat or limit the number of upgrades that aliens can take from each chamber, being a cara, regen, celerity, silence, adrenaline, leaping, focus skulks DOESN'T prepare you for classic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or perhaps remove focus completely, and replace it with something else...like silence. Then give MCs something else. Without focus, SCs will no longer dominant as much as it does.
I think you're right though.. some new ideas for upgrades are needed.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Also if anyone wants my post on why pt should involve clans PM me on here or quakenet #knife nick: G-</span>
Make it cheaper, and faster to research. Doing this will open up a whole new door to the marine tech.This upgrade is really worthwhile, but currently due to its cost and the time it takes to research, it just is not a viable option earlygame.
Making it cheaper and quiker to research will mean teams will actually consider it as an early game upgrade, which widens up the game from a strategical point of view.
At the moment teams really only do motion once everyting else is researched, and there is a lot of res to be thrown around. If its made cheaper, we will see it earlier (even chosen as the first upgrade for some games) during most matches, which will throw an extra spanner into the works for aliens.
Just a thought, cause at the moment motion itself is just about never used competitively. Sure its there, but make it accessable and usefull. Dont keep it as an addon upgrade like it currently is, but make it a must have upgrade.
This is one way you guys can make the game more open and unpredictable.
25 res and 1 minute research time? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ack no. MT is not a counter for sensory, sensory is the counter for MT. MT only counters DC and MC fairly well, and it is already overpowered for its cost and research time against those two chambers.
I'm curious as to what teams you have been playing with. The customary build order against an alien team that goes MC first is MT right after phase is finished recearching (if not before phase in extream cases), which is usually at the same time A1 finishes.
MT is the counter for silence and carapasc on skulks.
Welder upgrade = good idea, perfect replacement for the GL upgrade.
cheap fast MT would give the marines too strong an advantage, so NONO.
increase the damage of siege turrets as they arent strong enough for marines to make a viable comeback against 2 hives without HA or jp's.
the new maps need to have more simplicity to them and playability, currently they just seem like long winding coridoors with far too much bling to have any chance of a decent round in competative play.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* We're keeping the talk about how to playtest NS out of this thread.></span>
starting hives shouldnt have such a large factor on the outcome of a match (eg waste hive on tanith) *HI GRAHAM*. A system for mp_tournamentmode 1 giving the team ability to maybe vote a hive at the begining.
all i can think of at the moment
Could we also see something done with electricity? 30 res for elec rt is unviable unless you're playing against morons.
Make it cheaper, and faster to research. Doing this will open up a whole new door to the marine tech.This upgrade is really worthwhile, but currently due to its cost and the time it takes to research, it just is not a viable option earlygame.
Making it cheaper and quiker to research will mean teams will actually consider it as an early game upgrade, which widens up the game from a strategical point of view.
This is one way you guys can make the game more open and unpredictable.
25 res and 1 minute research time? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ack no. MT is not a counter for sensory, sensory is the counter for MT. MT only counters DC and MC fairly well, and it is already overpowered for its cost and research time against those two chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Swirl's right, MT is sort of a nice 'extra' thing if you're not in a hurry spending res on HMG's/welders/shotguns/phase tech/armory upgrade/arms lab. As it is, it doesn't become viably researchable until mid-late game. And while it doesn't fully counter SC, a built-in semi-wallhack is very useful regardless of chamber.
About focus: I think it could use some toning down. It makes a few things far harder than they should be, such as rushing/sieging a hive, or just plain old getting around the map (assuming he's accompanied by lerks). I liked the welder upgrade idea, but i'm not sure if it would all balance out. Worth a try though.
--
Aside that, I feel there's two major problems atm.
1) Skulks. In b5, believe it or not, a0 marine vs vanilla skulk was just about a perfect balance. Perfect balance didn't mean "having an equal chance to take each other out on equal skill levels (even though it wasnt that far apart)", but more like "both having the capability to help their team reach a decent res situation mid-game". So now we got innate regen, and early/faster/free upgrades. Sending a lone guy capping west access? Nono, let's send two so they can hold each others' hand. Sending a shotgun duo to take down acidic? But comm, there's three skulks there i'm scared?
You could argue against it being fun to be a skulk in b5, but marines needed that early game advantage. They needed the ability to cap nodes in peace and maybe get an rt down within the first three minutes. What you get now is people getting owned left right and centre by celerity/silence skulks, and you'll be lucky if you get your rt's up. This early game imbalance carries on throughout entire rounds, wherein marines can't compete mid-game for obvious reasons.
2) Sieges. I was all for removing siege damage on lifeforms. It was random, lame, and crappy. But you know, you need that siege damage after all. A standard siege defense alien team will consist of a fade, lerk, gorge, rt-chewing skulk, and two spares. It'd be hard enough if you were playing 6v4 in that situation, let alone two extra gorges/attacking skulks/rt chewers. It was already hard to siege in b5, because of spores. But now, you're basically forced into the hive. Well, newsflash: You can't. The fade will act like a wall and pick off the stripped-off-their-armor marines due to spores. Gorges will heal the hive. It's impossible to do without HA, and good luck getting HA in time before an onos is up. In which case you need jetpacks. It's all unfair. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Can't you add back siege lifeform damage again, but remove the randomness of it all? You'd have to make the radius big enough though, so the gorges/lerks can AVOID it without going "but i was flying away from it wsnt getting hit before and i got blasted WTHux" , but not be close enough to heal etc.
This would help alot, people might actually start parasiting marines also..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Replace cloaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just cause it sux
on another note id like a tweak in combat. Id prefe to see it reflect classic more and help newer players not get into as many bad habbits, maybe so they can improve there skills instead of just trying to frag ****. Currently it just has too many stupid elements which dont help develope the skills of newer players, such as cloak focus + mines.
Things along the lines of halfing the amount of levels for a start, make only 1 upgrade type for each chamber, can change the upgrades when you change lifeform, eg. limit onos to 1 upgrade, fade to 2 upgrades, lerk 3 upgrades etc.
so..
half the number of levels for everyone.
limit aliens to 1 upgrade from each chamber.
Keep co_ as more of a training exercise for ns_ instead of a seperate game.
This would never happen but im saying it anyway. (it would also give late joiners a much better chance of having a chance)
1) +5 base armor for marines. A buff removed with a single psite.
2) Switch welders with hand grenades. Make nades dropable in packs, and welders a research in the armory.
About the seiges. I really like that the dmg to life forms has been removed. But without any healing on the hive it takes 22 seige shots to kill. This means that 3 is the optimal amount of seiges to drop, but that it takes 8 vollies to kill the hive. With at best 5 scans available in the obs, you need marines to sight the hive. Thats not even talking about the mc gorge healing his brains out.
The power of a seige shot needs to be upped, so that the seige cannons will actually kill the hive. If a marine team can get positioned, get the cannons up, and hold out long enough to make a dent in the hive, they deserve a better chance at having those cannons actually kill the hive.
Electricity is broken by the numbers. It takes too long to research, and costs too much. One or the other needs to be fixed, make it cost less or have it work faster. Right now if you do the numbers it is never mathematically worthwhile to elec.
i like the 3.02 changes. improving balance by tweaking costs and research times.
currently 2 hives means an alien win. maybe removing 25-50 armor from the fade and making it cost 40res would aleviate alien midgame dominance.
'
i'm still thinking we may be in the 'its to still to soon to tell' about balance.
marines games have been improving steadily since 3.0f came out.
No. Healing the hive should be a viable strat to stop sieges. Make the siege cannons more powerful/cheaper instead.
Right now welders are only ever given out along with shotguns/HMGs to Light Marines for the simple fact that 5 res per welder isn't viable to spend on even a minority of 'vanilla' marines. Definitely agree with switching grenades for welders. Keep the res cost & research time exactly the same as it is for grenades.
Even without the other suggested buffs to marine armour this would drastically improve a Light Marines chances vs any lifeform with Focus upgrade.
I also think changing the marine armour values around somewhat could be beneficial. Level 3 Light Armour Marines die to 2 swipes from a Focus Fade. Level 1 Light Armour Marines die to 2 swipes from a Focus fade. Why would anyone spend the extra 70 res then especially if they intend to use Jetpacks?
I was thinking about Chamber innate abilities. Sensorys give passive cloaking & scent of fear within range. Movements give adrenaline & allow moving to the furthest hive or the nearest hive under attack. Defence give healing & ? Surely this means Defence chambers are needing buffed to be as equally viable as the other 2? In all the scrims I've played in & spectated in the last couple of weeks (since 3.0.2 came out/CAL-NS Finals were played) the number of clans I've seen taking DC for first hive chamber I can count on 1 finger & I've yet to see a clan taking DC as 2nd hive (if they go MC first they go SC next & vice versa).
Swiftspear why are you posting in "General Competitive Discussion" on a thread called "The Competitive Balance Feedback Thread" when you don't have any competitive experience in either scrims or matches?
[edit] I agree somewhat with phunktion in that it may be a little too early to tell especially with 3.0.2 only having been out for a week or so. A lot of good points come up in this thread however I feel we may need to wait a while before we can truly address the question of balance in competitive games.
As the saying goes "Newbies Whine, <i>Veterans Adapt.</i>"
If aliens have the same number of kills as marines, they are most likely winning solid. If one skulk and one marine die, then the rine is out of play for a good 20 seconds in which he can't cap/kill nodes or aquire or hold a position. If a pressure team of 3 goes out and kills three skulks before they all die, but they don't kill the rt, they haven't done anything worthwhile. <b>Marines need a much higher kill count than aliens to be winning the game. </b>
- Marines need a greater than 1:1 kill ratio
- Marines need a 2 (alien) : 3 (marine) node ratio
Both or one of these conditions must be satisfied to win... and if only one condition is met, it must be met heavily. Look at ANY game of NS where marines have lost, and it is because they failed at one of these two conditions. Either they can't kill stuff, or they run out of res and lack firepower to keep up with alien tech.
And i still really like the idea about adding 5+ armour to allow marines to survive 3 bites or 2 bites and a parasite.
A2/A3 should take 3 swipes to kill or 2 swipes unless the commander medpacks his marine, something needs to be done because focus as it is has no counter except welders and welders can't always be used in a hectic combat situation. Focus removes any element of control that a commander had of keeping his marines alive and that needs to be readded in some way.
Suggestion:
Raise upgrade chamber costs.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 <span style='color:yellow'>more</span> worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Suggestion:
Raise upgrade chamber costs.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually wouldn't mind a different version of motion tracking. It should be MUCH cheaper and quicker ot research, and it won't show the blue circles like it does now. You'd only see the red dots on the minimap, so you won't know *exactly* where the alien is.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
-SC is a viable first chamber if you place them before 1:00, otherwise MC>SC.
-SC as firts chamber depends mainly on the map (eclipse and tanith spring to my mind)
Raising the upgrade chambers cost to 20 res means, that if one players wants to drop 3 dc/mc he will need 70 res. Thats nearly on onos and certainly more than enough to place a hive.
Raising the cost to 20 is only viable, if a single chamber grants acces to level 3 upgardes. This will weaken SC and MC but strengthen DC.
-SC network would be more expensiv
-MC teleportation would cost 40 res instead of 30
-DC would be cheaper (20 res instead of 30)
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-SC is a viable first chamber if you place them before 1:00, otherwise MC>SC.
-SC as firts chamber depends mainly on the map (eclipse and tanith spring to my mind)
Raising the upgrade chambers cost to 20 res means, that if one players wants to drop 3 dc/mc he will need 70 res. Thats nearly on onos and certainly more than enough to place a hive.
Raising the cost to 20 is only viable, if a single chamber grants acces to level 3 upgardes. This will weaken SC and MC but strengthen DC.
-SC network would be more expensiv
-MC teleportation would cost 40 res instead of 30
-DC would be cheaper (20 res instead of 30) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you've entirely missed my point.
Noticed some suggestions too about removing cloaking, I highly doubt the dev team will remove this so I'd just suggest to let the scan energy of the obs reload much faster and make the starting energy of the obs once again a bit higher.
When you combine this with people are already able to accomplish the above you end up with some serious balance issues since they can combine the skill they already posses with upgrades which eleminates any chance of them screwing up (SoF will never allow a marine-team to get a sneaky-pg, focus radically decrease the chance of a skulk not dealing damage and cloaking will set up perfect ambushes every time).
I do agree with most people in this thread that free upgrades for aliens cripple the marine-game and expansion a lot, however, I don't agree with them that skulk upgrades should remain free. I think that skulking has become all too easy with the free upgrades. I say that upgrades should cost one res, as proposed by NGE <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90300&view=findpost&p=1415009' target='_blank'>here</a> .
Free welders might prove interesting, and I'm all for testing it. +5 startingarmour could also be a useful marinebuff that could be tested, as long as the effect is negated by a single parasite.
If all these changes were to be made focused would no longer be overpowered. Instead it would be made totally useless, which isn't what we're aiming for.
And Faskalia, if SC isnt a viable chamber after 1:00, then howcome they tend to drag the games out for eternity (well, atleast until the marines are almost fully teched and in many scenarios equipped with HA) if the marines doesn't manage to take down the scs [on pubs]?
I still think that SCs should cloak aliens and structures within range, but not the chamber itself. This would FORCE the alien-team to think more about where they place the chambers so they arent able to run around randomly placing SCs all over the map in the most retarded places. Cloaking as an upgrade should also be replaced with something else that makes the game less boring.