<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 13 2005, 05:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 13 2005, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The spread of an HMG is 4x that of an lmg.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree. That is not grounds for changing them. JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we all understand that your not talking about hives eather. but when factering in balance to the entire equasion then you have to look at everthing, Stregth and weakness etc..
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 13 2005, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 13 2005, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The spread of an HMG is 4x that of an lmg.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree. That is not grounds for changing them. JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The HMGs can not own lifeforms unless the alien team is pressured in some other form. I am now starting to repeat my self as you have in the last 5 posts.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 14 2005, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 14 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 13 2005, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 13 2005, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The spread of an HMG is 4x that of an lmg.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree. That is not grounds for changing them. JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The HMGs can not own lifeforms unless the alien team is pressured in some other form. I am now starting to repeat my self as you have in the last 5 posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Your post makes no sense. HMGs absolutely DESTROY lifeforms.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Jmms, what he is saying is it's pretty stupid to attack HMG wielding players unless you have a distinct advantage. A fade would never blink into cargo against a bunch of HMGs unless he didn't know they were there OR felt compelled to do something, even if it's something stupid. JP/HMGs do not have the staying power to finish off a hive, which is what counts. Once the second hive is up, owning aliens doesn't do much good if you can't get in a hive and take it down. That's what homi is trying to get across to you, even if aliens get trashed by them (and they shouldn't, because attacking HMGs en masse is pretty stupid), it still won't do any good if you can't push into a hive or at least a siege point, then hold it. Sure places like cargo are great jp spots, but how many places absolutely suck for JPs? Far more than are good for them. If anything, complain about HA/HMGs, they have a ridiculous amount of staying power compared to JPers.
HA pretty much sucks. Much easier to hold nodes with jetpacks. Also, adj, quite the contrary. I've noticed most commanders don't order their HMGs to shoot the hive. Just because it does half damage doesn't mean that 4-5 HMGs can't rape the **** out of it. And if a fade comes in... 1 HMG is pretty bad, but 5?! rofflewaffles!
If you have 5 hmgs shoot a hive and a fade comes in, all those marines are dead becuase of the uber long reload time. 4 hmgs covering a gl though, now that is nice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Apr 14 2005, 10:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Apr 14 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you have 5 hmgs shoot a hive and a fade comes in, all those marines are dead becuase of the uber long reload time. 4 hmgs covering a gl though, now that is nice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 14 2005, 10:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 14 2005, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HA pretty much sucks. Much easier to hold nodes with jetpacks. Also, adj, quite the contrary. I've noticed most commanders don't order their HMGs to shoot the hive. Just because it does half damage doesn't mean that 4-5 HMGs can't rape the **** out of it. And if a fade comes in... 1 HMG is pretty bad, but 5?! rofflewaffles! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HMGs take a long while to drop a hive compared to shotguns. Often I'll send almost all HMGs with 1-2 shotguns, it's brutally effective. HMGs do good damage over time to structures, but you don't always have time to put 2+ clips per gun into a hive with a HMG, the shotguns speed it up a lot. A shotgun and hmg of the same level do nearly the same damage to structures per mag, however the shotgun does the damage in far less time.
Since when was this discussion on whether JPs or HA hold nodes better? That's another topic, my point was HA/HMGs will hold an area a lot longer with less cost than jets will, especially against hive 2+ aliens. Jets lack staying power, and it's a constant drain to replace them, whereas HA is far more stable, if slower moving. It increases the overall firepower available over time.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I've always felt that it's rarely a smart move when commanders drop 5 identical weapons. Each weapon has strengths and it's rare when each one won't be useful when used as part of a cohesive squad. The GL is a phenomenal weapon in the right hands (and good cover) and with motion tracking it becomes a wall-hacking, pitching machine of doom.
Even the humble LMG has advantages. It's accurate enough to kill skulks and lerks halfway across refinery, where an HMG or shotgun is useless. It's solid against any targets and it's as light as a feather unless you've brought along 5 extra clips. The fact it's free goes in its favour too.
<!--QuoteBegin-AUX Recoup+Apr 16 2005, 03:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AUX Recoup @ Apr 16 2005, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HMG's are just fine, and in some cases just aren't good enough to stop uber fades. If fades should worry about anything, it's Level 3 shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> made me smile <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 15 2005, 06:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 15 2005, 06:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd still rather have a shotty/HMG + pistol than lmg + pistol <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You should. You PAID good resources for it!
A lot of "uber fades" don't like anything but regen, but sometimes late game carapace (even if you only have 1 hive) is the only way to survive hmgs. If you nerf lvl 3 hmgs then nothing could stop a cele/cara fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cm Franks+Apr 24 2005, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cm Franks @ Apr 24 2005, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lot of "uber fades" don't like anything but regen, but sometimes late game carapace (even if you only have 1 hive) is the only way to survive hmgs. If you nerf lvl 3 hmgs then nothing could stop a cele/cara fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God forbid you actually have to aim or use teamwork to take down a lifeform that costs 50 res.
<!--QuoteBegin-Abix+Apr 26 2005, 04:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Abix @ Apr 26 2005, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cm Franks+Apr 24 2005, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cm Franks @ Apr 24 2005, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lot of "uber fades" don't like anything but regen, but sometimes late game carapace (even if you only have 1 hive) is the only way to survive hmgs. If you nerf lvl 3 hmgs then nothing could stop a cele/cara fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God forbid you actually have to aim or use teamwork to take down a lifeform that costs 50 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever watched a delta level fade in a match? good fades don't die if they don't want to die.
Maybe hmgs level 2 are the only way to counter some skulks-leap-celerity-carapace with free upgrades and "no hitboxes-fades" ? HMGs are powerfull, maybe to much against a fade, but, skulks with free upgrades are now so powerfull that hmg need to be efficient vs skulks and fade at the same moment ... because an intelligent fade is often followed by a skulk and/or a lerk when marines have hmg's level 2/3, maybe that's the reason why hmgs are so powerfull at level 2.
You take something as important as a 50 res lifeform and give it a window of less than 3 seconds to survive. God forbid if there's lag higher than 50 ms and some choke (especially if you're playing some Euro ****) , because then you have less than 2 seconds to maneuver your fade properly. And unless I'm snorting some kind of amphetamine I don't have that kind of reaction time consistently.
It's very hard for LMG's to take down a fade, but very easy for HMG's. If HMG's were nerfed, you'd need to beef up LMGs. But you'd have to give <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> more HP.
Actually, that might work. It would be more balanced, and it would mean less of this "3 marines emptying their LMG's <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> at a fade causing only mild scratches"
<!--QuoteBegin-cheesejoff+May 1 2005, 12:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cheesejoff @ May 1 2005, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's very hard for LMG's to take down a fade, but very easy for HMG's. If HMG's were nerfed, you'd need to beef up LMGs. But you'd have to give <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> more HP.
Actually, that might work. It would be more balanced, and it would mean less of this "3 marines emptying their LMG's <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> at a fade causing only mild scratches" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This forum is called competative discussion for a reason. 3 LMGs will down a fade easily if they can aim. If you dont speak about competative NS, then dont speak at all. (Mustang at external acess vs exigent's LMGs anyone?!?!).
Comments
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree.
That is not grounds for changing them.
JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we all understand that your not talking about hives eather. but when factering in balance to the entire equasion then you have to look at everthing, Stregth and weakness etc..
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree.
That is not grounds for changing them.
JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The HMGs can not own lifeforms unless the alien team is pressured in some other form. I am now starting to repeat my self as you have in the last 5 posts.
Walker fade = win <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree.
That is not grounds for changing them.
JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The HMGs can not own lifeforms unless the alien team is pressured in some other form. I am now starting to repeat my self as you have in the last 5 posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Your post makes no sense. HMGs absolutely DESTROY lifeforms.
Talking at a wall.
Indeed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
HMGs take a long while to drop a hive compared to shotguns. Often I'll send almost all HMGs with 1-2 shotguns, it's brutally effective. HMGs do good damage over time to structures, but you don't always have time to put 2+ clips per gun into a hive with a HMG, the shotguns speed it up a lot. A shotgun and hmg of the same level do nearly the same damage to structures per mag, however the shotgun does the damage in far less time.
Since when was this discussion on whether JPs or HA hold nodes better? That's another topic, my point was HA/HMGs will hold an area a lot longer with less cost than jets will, especially against hive 2+ aliens. Jets lack staying power, and it's a constant drain to replace them, whereas HA is far more stable, if slower moving. It increases the overall firepower available over time.
Even the humble LMG has advantages. It's accurate enough to kill skulks and lerks halfway across refinery, where an HMG or shotgun is useless. It's solid against any targets and it's as light as a feather unless you've brought along 5 extra clips. The fact it's free goes in its favour too.
Kind of talking about primary weapons here, Roger. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Irrelevant' target='_blank'>Explanation for foreigners.</a>
made me smile <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You should. You PAID good resources for it!
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
God forbid you actually have to aim or use teamwork to take down a lifeform that costs 50 res.
God forbid you actually have to aim or use teamwork to take down a lifeform that costs 50 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever watched a delta level fade in a match? good fades don't die if they don't want to die.
HMGs are powerfull, maybe to much against a fade, but, skulks with free upgrades are now so powerfull that hmg need to be efficient vs skulks and fade at the same moment ... because an intelligent fade is often followed by a skulk and/or a lerk when marines have hmg's level 2/3, maybe that's the reason why hmgs are so powerfull at level 2.
But I don't think nerfing hmgs is the answer.
Actually, that might work. It would be more balanced, and it would mean less of this "3 marines emptying their LMG's <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> at a fade causing only mild scratches"
Actually, that might work. It would be more balanced, and it would mean less of this "3 marines emptying their LMG's <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> at a fade causing only mild scratches" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This forum is called competative discussion for a reason. 3 LMGs will down a fade easily if they can aim. If you dont speak about competative NS, then dont speak at all.
(Mustang at external acess vs exigent's LMGs anyone?!?!).
level 0 HMG > level 3 shotgun
Reload is too damn long..takes like
The hmg was already nerfed, it once had a 150 round clip, now its 125..
it suxx!!!
against pro fades, it only lets you live a few seconds longer..
A good fade will fly around and make the Hmger waste his bullets, and then come in when hes relaoding...