<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus+Jun 10 2005, 05:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 10 2005, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please clarify what you mean. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Cultural upheaval through immigration ? Government fiat?
As long as people live near eachother there will be intermingling of culture and intermarriage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm I thought it was fairly straight foreword, studies show that if Hispanic Immigration continues at the same rate, and odds are it will increase, then Hispanics could become the dominate race in America before the turn of the century.
I would call that a pretty major cultural upheaval wouldn't you?
What wrong with people putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, and trying to develop their own cultural identity without having to constantly change their whole perspective for the next group of newcomers? I mean even if we threw open all the doors, eventually out the limits of our infrastructure or even our landmass would force us to draw the line and someone would get the “shaft” so to speak. Why not sooner then later?
I 'm not talking about the business man who travels to Mexico and brings back a Mexican wife; I'm talking about America being overwhelmed with more then it can handle.
Apparently you ARE ignorant of our history. Of course, the socio-economic interests will always be different, the overall trends are still the same.
Oh, and Reasa, you know Sean Hannity? That right wing nut? He does not support the Minute Man organization. He thinks they're a bunch of WHITE SUPREMACISTS. Coming from a conservative such as him, that's a pretty significant piece of information.
Hispanics come over to this country because they want to, why? Easily available, cheap commodities. Job opportunities (hell, even in GA we've got Mexican immigrants. And they're great people. They work hard, they don't complain. Who cares if they blare Salsa music when they drive to and from their jobs? I sure as hell don't). I eat outside every other day, and half the restaurants I go to have Mexicans working in them. I'm semi-fluent in Spanish (thanks to the education system) and I can carry on basic conversation with them. And they ARE trying to learn English. Because they come here for opportunity and self improvement.
And we all know if that you can't speak a country's language, your opportunity is severely limited.
Oh, and immigration doesn't hurt countries. WHO IMMIGRATES TO AFRICA. Practically all their population growth is due to natural increase.
I speak from both a sound base of historical knowledge, and personal experience, our so-called "Hispanic problem" is laughable, at best.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 10 2005, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 10 2005, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sirus+Jun 10 2005, 05:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 10 2005, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please clarify what you mean. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Cultural upheaval through immigration ? Government fiat?
As long as people live near eachother there will be intermingling of culture and intermarriage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm I thought it was fairly straight foreword, studies show that if Hispanic Immigration continues at the same rate, and odds are it will increase, then Hispanics could become the dominate race in America before the turn of the century.
I would call that a pretty major cultural upheaval wouldn't you?
What wrong with people putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, and trying to develop their own cultural identity without having to constantly change their whole perspective for the next group of newcomers? I mean even if we threw open all the doors, eventually out the limits of our infrastructure or even our landmass would force us to draw the line and someone would get the “shaft” so to speak. Why not sooner then later? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So essentially, you aren't comfortable with being a minority, so you want to tightly restrict immigration?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 10 2005, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 10 2005, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If I'm hearing you correctly, you are effectively saying that you don't want people coming into this country because you don't want their culture influencing ours. That seems pretty friggin backward to me.
Am I reading you right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, let me state this for the last time in plain English.
There is <i>nothing</i> wrong with exposure to foreign cultures in <i>moderation</i>.
But when the foreign culture is overwhelming the status quo a problem arises. Especially when the current society seemingly encourages the separation of the two cultures within its own borders.
The simple solution is enforce the laws that are <i>already</i> in place.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 10 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 10 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So essentially, you aren't comfortable with being a minority, so you want to tightly restrict immigration? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much yea.
I didn't realize not wanting the entire social and cultural dynamics of your home country reworked to accommodate a foreign culture was a bad thing.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
What is so terrifyingly different about Hispanic culture?
The language accomodations are just pure economics. The only reason things are in English in general is cause if they aren't you get less business. Only reason things are in Spanish in some parts of the country is because if they aren't, you get less business. Only reason things are compatible with windows is that if they aren't, you get less business. Its just market forces. Tough. get over it.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 10 2005, 06:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 10 2005, 06:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is so terrifyingly different about Hispanic culture?
The language accomodations are just pure economics. The only reason things are in English in general is cause if they aren't you get less business. Only reason things are in Spanish in some parts of the country is because if they aren't, you get less business. Only reason things are compatible with windows is that if they aren't, you get less business. Its just market forces. Tough. get over it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I get what your saying, it's just that saying "Tough, get over" to the majority is not something a society should put up with.
I thought the argument here was for the assimilation of the Hispanic culture into our society, but you seem to be advocating American culture adapting to Hispanic culture, and I'm afraid not to many Americans would agree with you on that.
These "market forces" are not only weakening our country but are hindering the very people they think they are helping. Of course, what am I saying, businesses could care less about whom they help or hurt. What need is an amendment to the Constitution that makes English the official language of America.
Again were just taking away the reasons, one by one, for people to assimilate into our society.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I'm not advocating for either culture shifting more than the other. I don't care, because it won't matter in the long run anyways. It will reach some equilibrium.
Again, tell me, what specifically is it that you are worried about? English not being the dominant language? More corn products at your local grocery?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 10 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 10 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again, tell me, what specifically is it that you are worried about? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I've answered this sufficiently already.
If you don't think that my concerns are something you have to worry about, that’s fine.
I think that Hispanic immigration will be beneficial in the long run. Illegal immigration is a problem, but most illegal immigrants work in conditions that are literally criminal. Illegal immigrants aren't taking all the college professorships and making partner at Snooty, Whitey and Cobb. They're working crap jobs like picking lettuce for sub-minimum wage.
American culture will change, but all cultures are always changing. Continued immigration will likely help America stave off the aging population problems that Europe is looking at. Not being a member of the majority race is really only a problem if discrimination exists, and it has been decreasing. Protectionism through nativism won't work and will just stagnate the working pool. The hispanic population boom will produce competition for jobs, but that competition has always existed, albeit mostly amongst college-educated whites.
More importantly, it will bring in new consumers. Hispanics are growing not only in population, but in economic spending power. It's unlikely that we'll see a metric ton of hispanics being elected to Congress in the next 20 years, if only because whites control so much of the money in America.
Oh, really? You know, I thought it would have been having 1/5 of the world's human capital and having an ever more sensible government would have been the reason.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
My community (and the community's around us) are seeing a major population increase in <b>illegal</b> immigrants, mainly from mexico. I dont have a problem with legal immigrants, but i think we should militarize our boarders to stop them from illegally crossing over. Its affecting our community very negatively.
I'm Chinese. Han Chinese. And I can tell you for a fact that even though we've got a reputation for "assimilating" other peoples and cultures, it's still not perfectly, totally complete. There are many divisions in China. Not to mention that Northeast and Southern China are totally different.
Even if you still disregard and say we are still one, unified Chinese people, you have to remember that the wealth distribution is HORRID. Absolutely horrible. Rural Chinese haven't benefited in any way while an elite on the coasts profit like crazy.
The American "culture" is different in every area. Hell, we've still got some North and South rivalry still intact. We're as much divided and different, depending on the region where you live. The Northeastern Establishment, the Northwestern frontier. The Southwest. The Deepsouth. Those are all divisions within our culture, but we still get along.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 11 2005, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 11 2005, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just accept it. Lots of immigration is great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly is so great about it?
Hispanic people have been immigrating to my town for a over decade now, and I won't blame them solely, but I have watched the decline in property value and the rise in crime.
Large swaths of the city, entire blocks once filled with beautiful Victorian homes are reduced to dilapidated unkempt messes with 2-3 satellite dishes on every one. Drugs have become a major problem...police just recently broke up a god damn cocaine ring...I wonder where that is coming in from.
I remember when this town would have been shocked by a stolen car, now we get a stabbing a week.
The public school system can't handle the massive influx and is forced to use older, previously decommissioned buildings to hold all the students. We now have a separate building for 7-8, 9-10, and 11-12.
Our local economy has never been worse and our mayor has virtually given up on restoring the city to its former glory and now focuses solely on expensive pipe dreams like a 20,000 seat amphitheater. We only have 23,000 official residents.
This is my personal experience with Hispanic immigration and it hasn't been pleasant. Our small city infrastructure simply can't support the influx, and as a result things are falling apart. The western portion of the city only has 1 cop. The State Troopers are constantly forced to come into town because frankly our local police are out gunned.
I know for a fact this kind of thing is hardly isolated. They move into small cities like mine because of the low taxes and cheap housing, which is fine in moderation. But they tend to over-whelm the system dragging down the quality of life for everyone.
Yes immigration is great...now pardon me while I move to a gated community and perhaps I'll share your optimism.
Much the same can be said about the North Denver area, and it's not a small town. There are however more police, and those numbers are ever increasing.
Much the same as other people in this thread, I have no problem with hispanics personally, but when an area goes down the john and crimerates skyrocket with the population boom...
33% of the registered population in Denver county is hispanic, I have no problem with that, but this is not counting the illegals either, many estimates bring the total hispanic population over 50%. Buisnesses in many parts of the city are only in Spanish, run by people who only speek Spanish.
The seperation can harldy be considered good for the economy...
Every May 5th, traffic comes to a hault because the many members of the large hispanic culture deem it nessicery to drive 5mph down conjested traffic ways. Ambulances and firet trucks are slowed down, and people die because of it.
Crime is up, drug dealers are abundant, and gangs roam the streets. At my highschool, there were many fights between the 'Norteños' and the 'Sureños' just because they felt like it, over stupid hand signs and colors, and what part of the city they lived in.
The value of a lot of previously high valued preperty has drastically gone down with this wonderfull population boom.
I'm Chinese. Han Chinese. And I can tell you for a fact that even though we've got a reputation for "assimilating" other peoples and cultures, it's still not perfectly, totally complete. There are many divisions in China. Not to mention that Northeast and Southern China are totally different.
....
Just accept it. Lots of immigration is great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense but I think many native Tibetans would disagree with you.
As far as immigration goes I think I can understand where Reasa is coming from. I don't think many people enjoy the idea of becoming a minority in their own country.
I am an immigrant myself (from South Africa to the States). Having arrived here in the states I have no intention of teaching my son Afrikaans (a dutch derived language spoken in South Africa) unless he just happens to show in interest later on in life. He will be speaking english and doing it well.
Now don't get me wrong: Pride in cultural heritage is fine and I don't have any hang-ups about my cultural heritage. However I have no desire to turn the States into another South Africa.
My feeling is this, there are fundamentally two types of immigrants:
i) Those that are excited to be in their new country and adapt quickly to things like speaking the dominant language.
ii) Those that grudgingly make the move because anywhere is better than their current situation. These people have no desire to integrate with their new society and resist changes (such as learning a new language).
My personal experience with Hispanics has shown them to fall mainly in the ii) category.
I don't feel that ii) immigrants are particularly helpful quite frankly.
I don't want the States to be another Mexico nor another South Africa. If they come here legally, fine - although to be totally honest I don't find the culture to be very attractive on a personal level - live and let live and all that.
To have a flood of illegals simply walking across a border is IMO a security risk and it is shameful that nothing has been done to address this issue sufficiently. Either tighten the border or give them some sort of work visa, but at least know who enters the country.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 11 2005, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 11 2005, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just accept it. Lots of immigration is great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What exactly is so great about it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say immigration has been good to America. I mean, it's not like white people were here and then out of the blue those damn minorities started moving in. Without immigration, cheap manual labor wouldn't be so cheap any more.
Maybe because i am not white i fail to see your obvious truth, but your argument is quite ethnocentric and is becoming a little tired.
You seem misguided on your view of immigration. Mostly, people immigrate because their current situation sucks. As such, they are not going to be the richest people. The european immigrants were not exactly millionaires when they first moved here. They were pretty poor. And most of the people who were living here hated them. So give the current immigrants a few generations, and then say something.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Drugs have become a major problem...police just recently broke up a god damn cocaine ring...I wonder where that is coming in from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, the funny thing about illegal drugs is that mostly, it is white people that use them. The blame does not lie on the drug dealers only. they have to sell it to SOMEONE in order to make a living.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The public school system can't handle the massive influx and is forced to use older, previously decommissioned buildings to hold all the students. We now have a separate building for 7-8, 9-10, and 11-12.
Our local economy has never been worse and our mayor has virtually given up on restoring the city to its former glory and now focuses solely on expensive pipe dreams like a 20,000 seat amphitheater. We only have 23,000 official residents.
This is my personal experience with Hispanic immigration and it hasn't been pleasant. Our small city infrastructure simply can't support the influx, and as a result things are falling apart. The western portion of the city only has 1 cop. The State Troopers are constantly forced to come into town because frankly our local police are out gunned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if your town has such a problem with not having enough money for schools and police, try raising taxes. If you didn't know, those are what pay for public services.
Also, your reply to rapier7's china post, America has done a lot more than China has with a lot less of the population. If you haven't noticed, we are THE world power. No other country could invade iraq with such flimsy "evidence" and get away with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-xes+Jun 11 2005, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xes @ Jun 11 2005, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would say immigration has been good to America. I mean, it's not like white people were here and then out of the blue those damn minorities started moving in. Without immigration, cheap manual labor wouldn't be so cheap any more.
Maybe because i am not white i fail to see your obvious truth, but your argument is quite ethnocentric and is becoming a little tired.
You seem misguided on your view of immigration. Mostly, people immigrate because their current situation sucks. As such, they are not going to be the richest people. The european immigrants were not exactly millionaires when they first moved here. They were pretty poor. And most of the people who were living here hated them. So give the current immigrants a few generations, and then say something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Sigh*
I have <i>nothing</i> against legal Hispanic immigrants moving into this country under a controlled environment!
It's not the quality of the people that bothers me it’s the quantity!
My entire argument consists of, basically, stating how the mass numbers of Hispanic immigrants are overwhelming Americans infrastructure and culture not that all Hispanic immigration is bad thing!
Immigration from Europe was much, much, much more controlled then the current situation and that’s one of the factors that makes this wave different from any other.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, the funny thing about illegal drugs is that mostly, it is white people that use them. The blame does not lie on the drug dealers only. they have to sell it to SOMEONE in order to make a living.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but this argument is fundamentally flawed. You remove the people providing the drugs and you have taken care of the drug problem. Period.
Police don't often bother with the people who use the drugs, it’s the dealers they go after. Cut off the head and the limbs well die. Ether way my town did not have a drug problem before the Hispanics started moving in. I don't like to stereotype but I’m not going to sugarcoat the truth ether. It’s just a damn shame that young white teens are the ones who suffer the most from the availability of drugs, because these are the people the dealers target.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if your town has such a problem with not having enough money for schools and police, try raising taxes. If you didn't know, those are what pay for public services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh yea, easier said then done. Taxes have gone up allot in the past 10 years, I can assure you of that, but the city simply can't afford to raise them to high. Much of our population is lower middle class, so they can only pay so much. Not to mention illegal residents consume resources but do not pay taxes.
Also raising taxes more would probably be the final nail in the coffin for this town, because even with the influx of Hispanic immigrants our population is actually dropping. That’s because all the middle and upper-middle class residents are fleeing this town like it has the plague, and I can't really blame them.
Of course this just fuels the cycle because they sell their decent homes for cheap often to poorer Hispanic families who, and again I don't mean to stereotype, have absolutely no disregard for property. You can see how were locked in a cycle here.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm going to write my congressman another e-mail, to which he well not reply or give me some stale, pre-written response, maybe this time it'll stick! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, i suppose i couldn't expect you to actually read what i said. Referendums and initiatives are passed by popular vote, not by senators and reps.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry but this argument is fundamentally flawed. You remove the people providing the drugs and you have taken care of the drug problem. Period. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People will find and get what they want. A great example is the prohibition. Yes, gangsters distributed it, but people also made their own. So, if people want it bad enough, they will find ways to get it. If your town doesn't want drugs, then drug dealers will have no reason to be there. If your town wants drugs, then dealers will ALWAYS be a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-xes+Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xes @ Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, i suppose i couldn't expect you to actually read what i said. Referendums and initiatives are passed by popular vote, not by senators and reps.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And how do you think these referendums get initiated?
America isn't a hive mind; we don't all just wake up one day and decide to have a national vote on this or that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People will find and get what they want. A great example is the prohibition. Yes, gangsters distributed it, but people also made their own. So, if people want it bad enough, they will find ways to get it. If your town doesn't want drugs, then drug dealers will have no reason to be there. If your town wants drugs, then dealers will ALWAYS be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, but these young teenagers have no means of obtaining drugs outside the city limits. I've witnessed first hand how these drug dealers work, they wait outside the entrances to the mall on Friday nights or hang out at playgrounds making connections. If these dealers weren’t there this wouldn't be happening.
If an adult of sound mind wants to go and use drugs fully knowing the possible consequences then I guess not much can stop that person from getting drugs.
However dealing with adults is much riskier then dealing with naive teenagers and these are the favorite customers of drug dealers, they purposely put themselves in a position that kids can't always avoid.
I've seen kids as young as 5th and 6th grade smoking cigarettes and god knows what else in the seedier parts of town.
The problem is illegal immigration, not hispanics. They cross the border for various reasons. Some of them cross the border for a better life, so they avoid crime as best they can, just like any normal citizen. These illegals are not what's causing your problem.
It's the "bad" illegals we want to stop, but they intermingle with the "good" illegals. If we stop the "good" illegals, we become "WHITE SUPREMACISTS". So, how do we solve this problem? Boost Mexico's standard of living and job opportunities to the point that it's just as good to be honest and hard-working there as it is here. Then, the only people who illegally cross the border are the "bad" illegals, and then noone cares what we do to them, cause they're "bad."
A fair warning for those who are directly attacking other individuals in this topic, I am not going to be very lenient if it continues any further. Please discuss in a civil manner. You're not convincing <i>anyone</i> with smart aleck quips. And frankly, I'm not a big fan of it either.
So if you feel frustrated or angry with your opponent to a point that you are filling your reply with ad hominem attacks, please: get up from your chair, get a drink, relax, then return to your keyboard after you've cooled your head and fix your reply accordingly. Nothing ruins a good discussion like people starting personal attacks. Treat your fellow members / opponents with respect. Don't be surprised if said attacks start disappearing from posts because I won't hesitate to delete or edit them.
Please expect a more clarified rule on the matter to be created and stickied at a later time. Until then, I'll improvise. Play nicely...
okay i'll quit being a jackass, it wasn't that fun anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-xes+Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xes @ Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, i suppose i couldn't expect you to actually read what i said. Referendums and initiatives are passed by popular vote, not by senators and reps.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And how do you think these referendums get initiated?
America isn't a hive mind; we don't all just wake up one day and decide to have a national vote on this or that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The referendums are initiated by citizens. they are petitions to put a law to the electorate to vote on. an initiative is a way to pass a law by popular vote. So if enough people care, a law can be passed without the majority of each house approving it. thus, by passing your apathetic senate. More power to the people yay.
(if you want a good example of this, look up tim eyman and his car tab law. the law was an awful, stupid thing, but the majority of the people in my state wanted it, and that's what they got. this is also a good example of when democracy can be quite bad. or actually, tim eyman and ANY initiative, his car tab one is just the most famous one i can think of)
2) To clarify, i meant only the border states, since those are really the only ways that mexicans can get in illegally. a national referendum would be nigh impossible, people in wisconsin would not care. it'd be a lot easier to pass state by state, in the ones where the people who live there are directly affected by the illegal immigration
Comments
As long as people live near eachother there will be intermingling of culture and intermarriage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm I thought it was fairly straight foreword, studies show that if Hispanic Immigration continues at the same rate, and odds are it will increase, then Hispanics could become the dominate race in America before the turn of the century.
I would call that a pretty major cultural upheaval wouldn't you?
What wrong with people putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, and trying to develop their own cultural identity without having to constantly change their whole perspective for the next group of newcomers? I mean even if we threw open all the doors, eventually out the limits of our infrastructure or even our landmass would force us to draw the line and someone would get the “shaft” so to speak. Why not sooner then later?
I 'm not talking about the business man who travels to Mexico and brings back a Mexican wife; I'm talking about America being overwhelmed with more then it can handle.
Oh, and Reasa, you know Sean Hannity? That right wing nut? He does not support the Minute Man organization. He thinks they're a bunch of WHITE SUPREMACISTS. Coming from a conservative such as him, that's a pretty significant piece of information.
Hispanics come over to this country because they want to, why? Easily available, cheap commodities. Job opportunities (hell, even in GA we've got Mexican immigrants. And they're great people. They work hard, they don't complain. Who cares if they blare Salsa music when they drive to and from their jobs? I sure as hell don't). I eat outside every other day, and half the restaurants I go to have Mexicans working in them. I'm semi-fluent in Spanish (thanks to the education system) and I can carry on basic conversation with them. And they ARE trying to learn English. Because they come here for opportunity and self improvement.
And we all know if that you can't speak a country's language, your opportunity is severely limited.
Oh, and immigration doesn't hurt countries. WHO IMMIGRATES TO AFRICA. Practically all their population growth is due to natural increase.
I speak from both a sound base of historical knowledge, and personal experience, our so-called "Hispanic problem" is laughable, at best.
As long as people live near eachother there will be intermingling of culture and intermarriage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm I thought it was fairly straight foreword, studies show that if Hispanic Immigration continues at the same rate, and odds are it will increase, then Hispanics could become the dominate race in America before the turn of the century.
I would call that a pretty major cultural upheaval wouldn't you?
What wrong with people putting their foot down and saying enough is enough, and trying to develop their own cultural identity without having to constantly change their whole perspective for the next group of newcomers? I mean even if we threw open all the doors, eventually out the limits of our infrastructure or even our landmass would force us to draw the line and someone would get the “shaft” so to speak. Why not sooner then later? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So essentially, you aren't comfortable with being a minority, so you want to tightly restrict immigration?
Am I reading you right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, let me state this for the last time in plain English.
There is <i>nothing</i> wrong with exposure to foreign cultures in <i>moderation</i>.
But when the foreign culture is overwhelming the status quo a problem arises. Especially when the current society seemingly encourages the separation of the two cultures within its own borders.
The simple solution is enforce the laws that are <i>already</i> in place.
Pretty much yea.
I didn't realize not wanting the entire social and cultural dynamics of your home country reworked to accommodate a foreign culture was a bad thing.
The language accomodations are just pure economics. The only reason things are in English in general is cause if they aren't you get less business. Only reason things are in Spanish in some parts of the country is because if they aren't, you get less business. Only reason things are compatible with windows is that if they aren't, you get less business. Its just market forces. Tough. get over it.
The language accomodations are just pure economics. The only reason things are in English in general is cause if they aren't you get less business. Only reason things are in Spanish in some parts of the country is because if they aren't, you get less business. Only reason things are compatible with windows is that if they aren't, you get less business. Its just market forces. Tough. get over it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I get what your saying, it's just that saying "Tough, get over" to the majority is not something a society should put up with.
I thought the argument here was for the assimilation of the Hispanic culture into our society, but you seem to be advocating American culture adapting to Hispanic culture, and I'm afraid not to many Americans would agree with you on that.
These "market forces" are not only weakening our country but are hindering the very people they think they are helping. Of course, what am I saying, businesses could care less about whom they help or hurt. What need is an amendment to the Constitution that makes English the official language of America.
Again were just taking away the reasons, one by one, for people to assimilate into our society.
Again, tell me, what specifically is it that you are worried about?
English not being the dominant language? More corn products at your local grocery?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I've answered this sufficiently already.
If you don't think that my concerns are something you have to worry about, that’s fine.
American culture will change, but all cultures are always changing. Continued immigration will likely help America stave off the aging population problems that Europe is looking at. Not being a member of the majority race is really only a problem if discrimination exists, and it has been decreasing. Protectionism through nativism won't work and will just stagnate the working pool. The hispanic population boom will produce competition for jobs, but that competition has always existed, albeit mostly amongst college-educated whites.
More importantly, it will bring in new consumers. Hispanics are growing not only in population, but in economic spending power. It's unlikely that we'll see a metric ton of hispanics being elected to Congress in the next 20 years, if only because whites control so much of the money in America.
Nope.
Their ethnic and cultural unity is one of the main reasons they will become the next dominant super power.
I could be wrong, though.
I don’t think America could handle that many people even if they were all of one race.
I'm Chinese. Han Chinese. And I can tell you for a fact that even though we've got a reputation for "assimilating" other peoples and cultures, it's still not perfectly, totally complete. There are many divisions in China. Not to mention that Northeast and Southern China are totally different.
Even if you still disregard and say we are still one, unified Chinese people, you have to remember that the wealth distribution is HORRID. Absolutely horrible. Rural Chinese haven't benefited in any way while an elite on the coasts profit like crazy.
The American "culture" is different in every area. Hell, we've still got some North and South rivalry still intact. We're as much divided and different, depending on the region where you live. The Northeastern Establishment, the Northwestern frontier. The Southwest. The Deepsouth. Those are all divisions within our culture, but we still get along.
Just accept it. Lots of immigration is great.
What exactly is so great about it?
Hispanic people have been immigrating to my town for a over decade now, and I won't blame them solely, but I have watched the decline in property value and the rise in crime.
Large swaths of the city, entire blocks once filled with beautiful Victorian homes are reduced to dilapidated unkempt messes with 2-3 satellite dishes on every one.
Drugs have become a major problem...police just recently broke up a god damn cocaine ring...I wonder where that is coming in from.
I remember when this town would have been shocked by a stolen car, now we get a stabbing a week.
The public school system can't handle the massive influx and is forced to use older, previously decommissioned buildings to hold all the students. We now have a separate building for 7-8, 9-10, and 11-12.
Our local economy has never been worse and our mayor has virtually given up on restoring the city to its former glory and now focuses solely on expensive pipe dreams like a 20,000 seat amphitheater. We only have 23,000 official residents.
This is my personal experience with Hispanic immigration and it hasn't been pleasant. Our small city infrastructure simply can't support the influx, and as a result things are falling apart. The western portion of the city only has 1 cop. The State Troopers are constantly forced to come into town because frankly our local police are out gunned.
I know for a fact this kind of thing is hardly isolated. They move into small cities like mine because of the low taxes and cheap housing, which is fine in moderation.
But they tend to over-whelm the system dragging down the quality of life for everyone.
Yes immigration is great...now pardon me while I move to a gated community and perhaps I'll share your optimism.
Much the same as other people in this thread, I have no problem with hispanics personally, but when an area goes down the john and crimerates skyrocket with the population boom...
33% of the registered population in Denver county is hispanic, I have no problem with that, but this is not counting the illegals either, many estimates bring the total hispanic population over 50%. Buisnesses in many parts of the city are only in Spanish, run by people who only speek Spanish.
The seperation can harldy be considered good for the economy...
Every May 5th, traffic comes to a hault because the many members of the large hispanic culture deem it nessicery to drive 5mph down conjested traffic ways. Ambulances and firet trucks are slowed down, and people die because of it.
Crime is up, drug dealers are abundant, and gangs roam the streets. At my highschool, there were many fights between the 'Norteños' and the 'Sureños' just because they felt like it, over stupid hand signs and colors, and what part of the city they lived in.
The value of a lot of previously high valued preperty has drastically gone down with this wonderfull population boom.
Yea, this is great for the US!
I'm Chinese. Han Chinese. And I can tell you for a fact that even though we've got a reputation for "assimilating" other peoples and cultures, it's still not perfectly, totally complete. There are many divisions in China. Not to mention that Northeast and Southern China are totally different.
....
Just accept it. Lots of immigration is great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense but I think many native Tibetans would disagree with you.
As far as immigration goes I think I can understand where Reasa is coming from. I don't think many people enjoy the idea of becoming a minority in their own country.
I am an immigrant myself (from South Africa to the States). Having arrived here in the states I have no intention of teaching my son Afrikaans (a dutch derived language spoken in South Africa) unless he just happens to show in interest later on in life. He will be speaking english and doing it well.
Now don't get me wrong: Pride in cultural heritage is fine and I don't have any hang-ups about my cultural heritage. However I have no desire to turn the States into another South Africa.
My feeling is this, there are fundamentally two types of immigrants:
i) Those that are excited to be in their new country and adapt quickly to things like speaking the dominant language.
ii) Those that grudgingly make the move because anywhere is better than their current situation. These people have no desire to integrate with their new society and resist changes (such as learning a new language).
My personal experience with Hispanics has shown them to fall mainly in the ii) category.
I don't feel that ii) immigrants are particularly helpful quite frankly.
I don't want the States to be another Mexico nor another South Africa. If they come here legally, fine - although to be totally honest I don't find the culture to be very attractive on a personal level - live and let live and all that.
To have a flood of illegals simply walking across a border is IMO a security risk and it is shameful that nothing has been done to address this issue sufficiently. Either tighten the border or give them some sort of work visa, but at least know who enters the country.
What exactly is so great about it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say immigration has been good to America. I mean, it's not like white people were here and then out of the blue those damn minorities started moving in. Without immigration, cheap manual labor wouldn't be so cheap any more.
Maybe because i am not white i fail to see your obvious truth, but your argument is quite ethnocentric and is becoming a little tired.
You seem misguided on your view of immigration. Mostly, people immigrate because their current situation sucks. As such, they are not going to be the richest people. The european immigrants were not exactly millionaires when they first moved here. They were pretty poor. And most of the people who were living here hated them. So give the current immigrants a few generations, and then say something.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Drugs have become a major problem...police just recently broke up a god damn cocaine ring...I wonder where that is coming in from.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, the funny thing about illegal drugs is that mostly, it is white people that use them. The blame does not lie on the drug dealers only. they have to sell it to SOMEONE in order to make a living.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 10:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The public school system can't handle the massive influx and is forced to use older, previously decommissioned buildings to hold all the students. We now have a separate building for 7-8, 9-10, and 11-12.
Our local economy has never been worse and our mayor has virtually given up on restoring the city to its former glory and now focuses solely on expensive pipe dreams like a 20,000 seat amphitheater. We only have 23,000 official residents.
This is my personal experience with Hispanic immigration and it hasn't been pleasant. Our small city infrastructure simply can't support the influx, and as a result things are falling apart. The western portion of the city only has 1 cop. The State Troopers are constantly forced to come into town because frankly our local police are out gunned.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if your town has such a problem with not having enough money for schools and police, try raising taxes. If you didn't know, those are what pay for public services.
Also, your reply to rapier7's china post, America has done a lot more than China has with a lot less of the population. If you haven't noticed, we are THE world power. No other country could invade iraq with such flimsy "evidence" and get away with it.
Maybe because i am not white i fail to see your obvious truth, but your argument is quite ethnocentric and is becoming a little tired.
You seem misguided on your view of immigration. Mostly, people immigrate because their current situation sucks. As such, they are not going to be the richest people. The european immigrants were not exactly millionaires when they first moved here. They were pretty poor. And most of the people who were living here hated them. So give the current immigrants a few generations, and then say something. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Sigh*
I have <i>nothing</i> against legal Hispanic immigrants moving into this country under a controlled environment!
It's not the quality of the people that bothers me it’s the quantity!
My entire argument consists of, basically, stating how the mass numbers of Hispanic immigrants are overwhelming Americans infrastructure and culture not that all Hispanic immigration is bad thing!
Immigration from Europe was much, much, much more controlled then the current situation and that’s one of the factors that makes this wave different from any other.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, the funny thing about illegal drugs is that mostly, it is white people that use them. The blame does not lie on the drug dealers only. they have to sell it to SOMEONE in order to make a living.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but this argument is fundamentally flawed. You remove the people providing the drugs and you have taken care of the drug problem. Period.
Police don't often bother with the people who use the drugs, it’s the dealers they go after. Cut off the head and the limbs well die. Ether way my town did not have a drug problem before the Hispanics started moving in. I don't like to stereotype but I’m not going to sugarcoat the truth ether. It’s just a damn shame that young white teens are the ones who suffer the most from the availability of drugs, because these are the people the dealers target.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if your town has such a problem with not having enough money for schools and police, try raising taxes. If you didn't know, those are what pay for public services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh yea, easier said then done. Taxes have gone up allot in the past 10 years, I can assure you of that, but the city simply can't afford to raise them to high. Much of our population is lower middle class, so they can only pay so much. Not to mention illegal residents consume resources but do not pay taxes.
Also raising taxes more would probably be the final nail in the coffin for this town, because even with the influx of Hispanic immigrants our population is actually dropping. That’s because all the middle and upper-middle class residents are fleeing this town like it has the plague, and I can't really blame them.
Of course this just fuels the cycle because they sell their decent homes for cheap often to poorer Hispanic families who, and again I don't mean to stereotype, have absolutely no disregard for property. You can see how were locked in a cycle here.
I'm going to write my congressman another e-mail, to which he well not reply or give me some stale, pre-written response, maybe this time it'll stick!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, i suppose i couldn't expect you to actually read what i said. Referendums and initiatives are passed by popular vote, not by senators and reps.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Sorry but this argument is fundamentally flawed. You remove the people providing the drugs and you have taken care of the drug problem. Period.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People will find and get what they want.
A great example is the prohibition. Yes, gangsters distributed it, but people also made their own. So, if people want it bad enough, they will find ways to get it. If your town doesn't want drugs, then drug dealers will have no reason to be there. If your town wants drugs, then dealers will ALWAYS be a problem.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how do you think these referendums get initiated?
America isn't a hive mind; we don't all just wake up one day and decide to have a national vote on this or that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People will find and get what they want.
A great example is the prohibition. Yes, gangsters distributed it, but people also made their own. So, if people want it bad enough, they will find ways to get it. If your town doesn't want drugs, then drug dealers will have no reason to be there. If your town wants drugs, then dealers will ALWAYS be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, but these young teenagers have no means of obtaining drugs outside the city limits. I've witnessed first hand how these drug dealers work, they wait outside the entrances to the mall on Friday nights or hang out at playgrounds making connections. If these dealers weren’t there this wouldn't be happening.
If an adult of sound mind wants to go and use drugs fully knowing the possible consequences then I guess not much can stop that person from getting drugs.
However dealing with adults is much riskier then dealing with naive teenagers and these are the favorite customers of drug dealers, they purposely put themselves in a position that kids can't always avoid.
I've seen kids as young as 5th and 6th grade smoking cigarettes and god knows what else in the seedier parts of town.
It's the "bad" illegals we want to stop, but they intermingle with the "good" illegals. If we stop the "good" illegals, we become "WHITE SUPREMACISTS". So, how do we solve this problem? Boost Mexico's standard of living and job opportunities to the point that it's just as good to be honest and hard-working there as it is here. Then, the only people who illegally cross the border are the "bad" illegals, and then noone cares what we do to them, cause they're "bad."
So if you feel frustrated or angry with your opponent to a point that you are filling your reply with ad hominem attacks, please: get up from your chair, get a drink, relax, then return to your keyboard after you've cooled your head and fix your reply accordingly. Nothing ruins a good discussion like people starting personal attacks. Treat your fellow members / opponents with respect. Don't be surprised if said attacks start disappearing from posts because I won't hesitate to delete or edit them.
Please expect a more clarified rule on the matter to be created and stickied at a later time. Until then, I'll improvise. Play nicely...
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 11 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 11 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-xes+Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xes @ Jun 11 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, i suppose i couldn't expect you to actually read what i said. Referendums and initiatives are passed by popular vote, not by senators and reps.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how do you think these referendums get initiated?
America isn't a hive mind; we don't all just wake up one day and decide to have a national vote on this or that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The referendums are initiated by citizens. they are petitions to put a law to the electorate to vote on. an initiative is a way to pass a law by popular vote. So if enough people care, a law can be passed without the majority of each house approving it. thus, by passing your apathetic senate. More power to the people yay.
(if you want a good example of this, look up tim eyman and his car tab law. the law was an awful, stupid thing, but the majority of the people in my state wanted it, and that's what they got. this is also a good example of when democracy can be quite bad. or actually, tim eyman and ANY initiative, his car tab one is just the most famous one i can think of)
2) To clarify, i meant only the border states, since those are really the only ways that mexicans can get in illegally. a national referendum would be nigh impossible, people in wisconsin would not care. it'd be a lot easier to pass state by state, in the ones where the people who live there are directly affected by the illegal immigration
1. There is no referendum at the national level.
2. Only 24 states provide referendums and it varies from city to city.