3.0.4 Balance Feedback
Nemesis_Zero
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Ha! Beat you to it, tanke!
Seriously, it's a tad earlier than usual, but for good reasons.
Please post your thoughts on the post-3.0.4 balance situation below. As usual, you're much likelier to make a difference with your points if you supply arguments instead of allegations.
Seriously, it's a tad earlier than usual, but for good reasons.
Please post your thoughts on the post-3.0.4 balance situation below. As usual, you're much likelier to make a difference with your points if you supply arguments instead of allegations.
Comments
As for 3.0.4- it's still the norm for 2 balanced teams to win their alien games; when the 2nd hive goes active the marines are in serious trouble (siegeing is a bit easier, but I think the Kharaa prefer longer battles (i.e. sieging), as they can heal for free and it costs 0 res for a lethal leaping-focus-celerity skulk to spawn.)
Outside of balance: the game is superb. I have never seen any serious kind of bug (well, everyone complains about hitboxes- though 3.0.5 has helped a lot). It is much more stable than the average retail game I play!
e : this may sound sarcastic but the time does add up
I don't feel that aliens have the upper hand so much anymore. I finally feel like the better team will win.
I have a marine sided team though. We lost our alien side to a weaker team last night but beat them pretty solid even though I was commanding without a microphone on marine side.
And I have no empirical evidance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't feel that aliens have the upper hand so much anymore. I finally feel like the better team will win.
I have a marine sided team though. We lost our alien side to a weaker team last night but beat them pretty solid even though I was commanding without a microphone on marine side.
And I have no empirical evidance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GG is better than you think...
PG + TF + upgrade + 3 sieges
That's what? 60 res or so? There is no way they should counter each other.
@topic: I feel like 3.04 has pretty much reached NS balance. There are some things that just can't be ironed out (e.g. HL-engine hitboxes)... but other than that, I think it's good.
I don't feel that aliens have the upper hand so much anymore. I finally feel like the better team will win.
I have a marine sided team though. We lost our alien side to a weaker team last night but beat them pretty solid even though I was commanding without a microphone on marine side.
And I have no empirical evidance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GG is better than you think... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm well aware that GG has some serious skills. If they had played the whole season they would not only be a playoff team, but I think they would break first round.
Its essential to the marines to pressure the nodes of the aliens ASAP to break their economy. If their economy is broken, fades can be delayed to about 6:00, assuming the alien team survives.
I've observed that the extra ammo and the little bit of armor (I know its not new, but equally as important) does help a lot. Even though armor 1 is usually the upgrade of choice, sometimes marines do fight skulks without getting parasited. The little buffs do help, but as stated earlier the balance revolves around when aliens get fades, for the most part, and whether or not the marines can counter them with effective upgrades, weapons and tactics.
Just a casual observation from a former competitive player.
PG + TF + upgrade + 3 sieges
That's what? 60 res or so? There is no way they should counter each other.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely irrelevant. The marines are paying for the luxury of killing a hive from outside the hive. Wallhax should cost.
Example of why res isnt everything:
3 HMGs (even L0) > 1 fade. Correct? But the fade costs more than 3 HMGs, so shouldn't he be stronger?
No.
To be more accurate, you need more than 2 gorges to -COUNTER- the siege. 2 gorges, 2 fades, an onos or 2 if they are a heavy train perhaps? You're looking at anywhere from 125-200 res.
Its essential to the marines to pressure the nodes of the aliens ASAP to break their economy. If their economy is broken, fades can be delayed to about 6:00, assuming the alien team survives.
I've observed that the extra ammo and the little bit of armor (I know its not new, but equally as important) does help a lot. Even though armor 1 is usually the upgrade of choice, sometimes marines do fight skulks without getting parasited. The little buffs do help, but as stated earlier the balance revolves around when aliens get fades, for the most part, and whether or not the marines can counter them with effective upgrades, weapons and tactics.
Just a casual observation from a former competitive player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a lot of truth in that FW.
However your fades are really important because they suceed or fail in defending the second building hive. Thats the real balance of power, fade skill is just a big variable in whether or not the hive happens.
Dudes and dudettes: Just because Nem created this topic doesn't mean I won't do whatever it takes to keep it clean and focused on <b>balance feedback</b>. Any other topic is for .. you guessed it -- another topic.
(X long, ranting posts deleted. Yes, that means that <b>you</b> are right.)
Hive two aliens are way to powerful, BECAUSE
Not only do they get free cele+focus leaping skulks, bilebomb is insanely easy to use now with its long range. I think the best idea would be to have upgrades for skulks cost resources at hive two.
2 chamber types at once = overpowered
focus = overpowered
when the second hive goes up the aliens get all these at once
marines don't know what the **** and need top tier to survive, it's insanely hard to make any kind of push while the hive heals aliens
marines have to go in a group at all times, they either go for an alien hive which means the aliens just have to hold them off until the skulks eat all their res and they push them back or a fade gets enough res to onos
if marines go after res they get attacked by the overpowered hive2 aliens
you NEED sieges to take out a second hive, umbra + gorge heal + flying focus fades + twice the spawn speed of skulks + free upgrades + super fast gestate times = no way can you get into hive room
you cant afford sieges because there is always at least one skulk attacking your nodes
you cant send one or two guys alone to take nodes against hive 2 aliens because all it takes is 1 fade and 1 skulks and you're a dead marine. if you send three guys to hold nodes then 2 hive aliens can just spot you on SoF or silence run away with parasites on you and attack other nodes, either forcing them to split up or just lose the nodes (remember, split up = dead)
not to mention that if you send 2 or 3 guys away to hold your nodes you are going to lose any siege position
the constant need for meds against spore and focus drains res
the constant need for more ammo because you can't kill anything that has 2 hives (umbra + hive healing + leap/blink/celerity flight) you can only make them run away, drains res
jetpacks are useless endgame tech, if the second hive is up you're GOING to get focused down, if aliens dont take sensory at second hive they're being stupid
while you're sieging a hive, chances are the aliens are building new nodes HELLO MR. ONOS STOMP MACHINE
stomp > siege bases
the only hives that are possible to siege without getting REALLY LUCKY are fusion reactor from cargo or the ones on nancy, but only if an onos can't get in there (comm chair blocking oh wait that costs 30+ res and it's lame as ****)
i'm sure there's more
god damn 2 hive aliens annoy me
edit: oh yea, bilebomb
you can forget about having any static defense because the only affordable option (mines) just went out the window and even then, mines cost a whole lot anyway
you cant take out a bilebombing gorge in a hive, but bilebomb can get round corners and take out your sieges, tfs and phase gates
at least when there is no gorge bilebombing you HAVE a chance to siege, i mean, it's not like its hard enough to fend off focus leap celerity fades, skulks with spores and umbra
WELDERS, time you spend welding is time wasted because you aren't shooting, which means the fades can stay longer and blahblahblah
Obligatory complaint about hand grenades being useless because they aren't like TFC nades and you have to waste time and res upgrading, also their damage sucks if you get more than a meter away it doesnt hurt you.
Obligatory complaint about cat packs sucking because they cost too much and dont speed up reload times
also: we dont have time or res to upgrade any of this stuff because all res is either spent on rebuilding nodes, armor/weapon upgrades, armory upgrades and meds/ammo.
I would rather have HMGs than hand grenades and armor1/weapons2 over catpacks, thats the choice we're forced to make otherwise the alien hive gets built and you lose
If I may...
Once the 2nd hive (40 res) goes up, and someone spends spends 30 res on the 2nd chambers; 100 res has been spent overall (1st hive chambers is the other 30 res). This allows celerity, focus, leaping skulks to be rolled off the production line free of charge.
In comparison, 100 res is all the marines start with. It gets them their basic structures + 2 RTs. They -may- have a1 with that res, but that's their only upgrade. <b>Granted, there's a big time delay in the aliens' use of that 100 res</b>; but nevertheless, the equivocal vanilla units at this point are:
- armour 1, weapon 0 LMG marines.
- leaping, celerity, focus, hive 2 skulks.
I think things come so cheaply to the aliens. Am I right in saying that a tick occurs every 6 seconds? Assume the aliens have 3 RTs; they will have a lerk, a flash fade, a hive and chambers in 3 minutes (that's 2:30 mins, +30s to get those 2 RTs up (although in reality it may take 60s.)
To balance this, marines need the other 7 RTs on the map (which implies that their lines are thinly spread, and/or none of the aliens are pressurising RTs); or they have to relay on killing the alien RTs ASAP, and the gorges that can put them back up.
[EDIT: mu beat me to it]
I hate to say it but I think movement chambers are too strong at hive 1 now. Not that they weren't always awesome at hive 1, I mean obs has been using them for quite some time now to beat teams a lot better then us, but with innate regen there is no reason for fades to need dc upgrades at hive 1. Instant teleporting to building hive plus silence and celerity skulks for free it greatly improves the alien early game which allows that second hive to go up.
Then of course once that second hive is up teams have the choice of defense chambers or sensories, but really with meta and innate your fades still don't really need regen at all so most teams go with scs for the most overpowered upgrade in the game. Add in leaping focus silent skulks and you are in for a good time as marines unless you have proto tech ready. Of course focus skulks, lerks, and fades vs jetpackers, or sof celerity onos vs heavies is kind of an unfair matchup.
I really don't know how this could be fixed and I really don't want to see movements get nerfed but there is a substantial problem there. Personally I think that the game should move in a direction away from dependance on the number of hives and focus on speed and skill where the better team won't be penalized because they made a small mistake, or let a hive go up.
A click is every 4 seconds, so maybe you wanna rethink those numbers.
A Major Major MAJOR inbalance in the game is that armor upgrades are broken. The only worthwhile upgrade is armor 1. If you make a2 and a3 actually do something worthwhile maybe spending the assload of res to get them could assist with the two hive alien situation. Armor that matters would make marines much scarier, and the game more balanced and awesome.
This is how I feel as well. Honestly, I feel that 3.0.4 is pretty balanced and that marines are winning again due to being a better team and not praying on winning based on errors from the opposing team.
More than one alien RT before 5:00: earlier celerity fades, more RTs -> enough res to drop second hive in a reasonable amount of time (4:00-5:00) -> more fades around 7:00.
Dead phase gate at 6:00 or 6:30: second hive up -> aliens get leap, metabolize, and focus -> aliens win.
Since level 3 silence/celerity is so common now the first one is especially hard to take care of.
Just trying to keep everyone's hopes realistic.)
The reduced armor and ammo forces marines to spend res(on ammo packs and armor 1) in the early game where they are the strongest. To offset this weapon upgrade damage could be increased slightly so that marines get help midgame where they really need it, not early game where they dominate the map.
and parasiting itself is immensly useful