<!--QuoteBegin-JazzX+Jul 3 2005, 06:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Jul 3 2005, 06:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jul 3 2005, 04:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jul 3 2005, 04:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->catching walking cloakers is possible on any system, just requires practice<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would argue that any monitor that is unusually naturally dark, doesn't have very good resolution (older, or is particularly small), or if the user prefers to play the game with darker gamma and constrast settings spotting cloaked aliens in 3.0.x is going to be impossible.
And might I add, and this goes for everyone who has responded to any of these threads in this manner, ditch the negative attitudes about changes. After reading what Zek posted and realizing how far reaching this change could be, I'll take time with the PTs to nail down exactly when 100% cloaking is in effect. But honestly when I see the way people are reacting and then treating each other's opinions in these threads I have to stop and wonder why I should bother. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We don't trust you to balance the game.
e : flipping meb ended up doing more to fix the spectator bug and hes banned then people who are PT's.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
You do realise that that spectator bug has been around since 2.1 CM testing? Yes, that's correct. In every version of NS2.1 up to the weekend of the CPL that spec bug existed. It went undetected for about a year, through two periods of CM testing, through several months of playtesting and eventually meb had the brainwave that allowed us to fix it. Remember all those veterans that played in the 2.1 CM testing? None of those figured it out either.
We're very appreciative of the info meb gave us, but to use his success as a criticism of the developers and playtesters is a little silly. That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
So let me tell you what really happened.
<b>Many eyes make all bugs shallow</b>
The more people experience a bug, and the longer they experience it for, the more likely <b>one of them</b> will figure it out.
In this case it was meb, and we've already publically stated our gratitude to him.
One of (maybe <b>the</b>, if it is who I'm thinking of?) best player in Europe posted a whine in the CM forum, about how 3.0 had ruined NS for him. He said that because aliens always choose DC(!), it's too hard for him to kill carapace skulks now, as he was used to only using 20 rounds per skulk.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2005
Let me give you the details of how the shotgun spread is implemented:
Half of the pellets are randomly distributes within a 7 degree cone, the rest is distributed within a 20 degree cone. This means that the shotgun will always have a fairly consistent spread in the middle of the crosshair, and will in many ways behave like the current shotgun, apart from the fact that it's actually centered now.
If you were able to close-range kill a skulk with the shotgun before, that won't change. Actually, you might experience that due to the randomness, all pellets may every now and then be within the 7 degree cone, and pack quite a punch.
In my experience, the new shotgun actually handles better than the old one, in particular when not using an off-center or pellet-acurate crosshair.
Edit: This would go under "leveling the playing field" that was previously mentioned in this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jul 3 2005, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 3 2005, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Josheh+Jul 3 2005, 12:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josheh @ Jul 3 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cloak as buggy said will level the playing feild, som players such as me cant see cloaks while others with older graphics cards can.
Shotgun on the other hand I dont like.
This situation happens twice, and exactly the same each time. Take a skulk running at a marine with a shotgun we have now, the marine will kill the skulk twice.
Now take the random shotgun: there is a chance that the pellets could miss the skulk and their is a chance that they could kill it and there is a chance it could damage it (im not sure how much of a chance with the figures we have been given)
Luck involved like this will make it in some cases much quicker/easier to kill the skulk while in other cases it will make it much harder.
Things like this I hate becuase at the back of my mind I will always wonder if I *could* have kill that skulk if I was luckier.
This is what made me quit WoW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you have to start incorporating another element of play into your game: movement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whats movement got to do with it? Say if you aimed a stationary skulk, aim'ed slightly to the right of it, and then fired, from the description tanke gave us it is possible for the pellets to stay to the left side thus only damaging/missing the skulk (I understand the chance of this happened are very slim, but it could still happen?)
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yes, and there's a chance of not hitting a stationary skulk with a HMG/LMG because the bullets spread around it too. Slim, but it's there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-joee+Jul 3 2005, 05:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joee @ Jul 3 2005, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We don't trust you to balance the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You'll be glad to hear that JazzX doesn't, then.
Once again, the PTs are not hired to design this game, they are not even brought on board to generate balance feedback. Stop accusing them of the decisions found by us, the dev team, please.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
Just a quick question :
Since playtesters don't balance the game, who does it ? Are the devs like, yeah we'll change this and that, see what playtesters say, then release it, and eventually listen to the people who whine loudest for balance tweaks ?
Well, the model has undergone many changes in recent times, but here's what we went with for 3.0.x:
We first created a client-side version. This version included a number of 'normative' changes - stuff that brought the game into the direction we considered benefical and in line with Flayra's bigger vision. These changes were sanity checked first by the PTs, and, later, by the CMs, to create a generally 'playable' experience, which we released.
Then (and after that unfortunate episode surrounding 3.0.1), we waited a while (I think it was pretty exactly a month) and then started sampling people's reactions. This can be seen most clearly in tanke's first balance feedback thread, additionally to that, we had a lot of individual feedback, and of course also personal experiences. We took all this, discussed the points raised (which were surprisingly conciese across the board), and started hammering away on possible solutions, until we arrived - more or less by consensus - at what became 3.0.2.
This, then, got another month in turn, after which we did the same evaluations, and so on, until 3.0.4, which we feel has pretty much succeeded at 3.0f's set goal, the creation of a balanced, <i>fun</i> early game (yes, we are aware of the issues around middle and late game, but there's only so much one can tackle at once). 3.0.5 will thus consist of a number of technical tweaks, which might or might not be followed by another tweak, depending on how fast we get 3.1 out - after which the balancing game will start anew.
<!--QuoteBegin-Toothy+Jul 3 2005, 11:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Toothy @ Jul 3 2005, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jul 3 2005, 08:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jul 3 2005, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The new hitboxe issues in b6 had to be found by consties even though it was obvious from the first pub round most people played. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not in fact the case.
And if you honestly think players like Civilian and Mustang are incapable of spotting anything in upcoming versions that will ruin the balance of NS, then there's really not a lot that will satisfy you.
I think a lot of us are pretty sick of jealousy manifesting itself into hate against the playtesters. Get over it. It's been going on for many, many months now. Forum posts here and there, comments in IRC channels by various players. It's low to keep making little digs at the playtest team when they've done nothing to you.
Hell, even two of your clanmates are playtesters. Have a little faith in them, maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then, that fuels my fire even more. If they spotted and discussed it during b6 testing and nothing was done then either, that only proves that some people who complained had played the "couple of weeks" we were told to give the version.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with jealousy. I've quit playing NS at least for the moment, due to studies, so wanting to become a playtester would be a somewhat strange desire at this time. Besides, everyone's saying the primary job of playtesters is to walk through maps while playing 3v3 combat and looking for map and crash bugs, so jealousy is a bit much to ask.
Regardless, I'm not digging at the playtest team, the playtest leads or even the developers. I'm just stating that I'm not prepared to take their word when they say "trust me/us" in reply to concernes voiced by players prior to releases, because the track record of such promises isnt that great.
That said, I do trust in the developers and the playtesters and leads (the people "in the know") to want the best for NS. I'm not questioning that what so ever. But a will to do something does not always equal ability, and what a few can have missed while bug testing and discussing future features, one or two of a great many could possibly think off while reading the changelog. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps not, but every time someone present their worries of a future version in a post longer than one paragrah doesnt call for an army of people defending the honor of said groups.
See what you have made me do just because of the few words "trust us" in response to the worries of some pretty dedicated fans of NS.
If I seem harsh its due to abstinence after several weeks without NS.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
That's a sober view on software development: It's not failsafe.
We fully admit that we don't know nor understand all the consequences of all our changes, some due to the complex nature of the game, technical issues, or the complex organism known as "the Community".
But it's an iterative proces, and we learn from both mistakes and successes: We can only get better at the job.
Nay-saying will always be there, and there will always be pros and cons with every change we do. We try to weight them up and judge them as good as we can, but nothing will ever be fully tested, fully balanced and perfect. Not even game developing juggernauts such as EA or Blizzard can do that, so no sane person can demand that of a small hobby team either.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did.
<!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Jul 3 2005, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jul 3 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's and for some reason is banned [what], and the people who play the game most only have a token representation in the PT group.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
<!--QuoteBegin-joee+Jul 3 2005, 05:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joee @ Jul 3 2005, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Jul 3 2005, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jul 3 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's and for some reason is banned [what], and the people who play the game most only have a token representation in the PT group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You want to talk about Zunni's dev corner show or something related to it? Fine, I encourage you to do so. But if you or meb wants to discuss the reason(s) a member is banned, you can stop right now. That sort of dirty laundry does <i>not</i> get aired out here in public. You talk to me or another staff member, and that's it.
<span style='color:white'>You'll notice that Marik told you to raise your complaints against a moderator's policy directly between yourself and him. Do.</span>
ok 100% cloak looks to be a whole lot more enjoyable then the semi-cloak version we have now.
also does the "shotgun cocking sound fixed" mean it's not going to do that weird double shot-thing it occasionally does which doesn't do any damage or whatever
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Jul 3 2005, 10:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jul 3 2005, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jul 3 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mixed the two of you up, sorry ultranewb. Meb produced the demo, you produced the explanation. We had previous demos from the 3.0 cm testing, initially from avl and later from kalessin. Then a bug was fixed and the test was run on NSA. We hoped the bug we fixed was the cause of the invulnerable entities, but as we all know now, it was the spectator bug.
<!--QuoteBegin-"joee"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("joee")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply not true. You just think he did more than most pts. And your evidence for this is simply that meb did something. You are comparing a known to an unknown and choosing to regard your friend's effort as the more substantial one. How naieve do you think we are?
I've worked as a software developer for over 10 years for three very successful companies. I've seen all kinds of development methodoligies with various levels of effectiveness. All of them have their problems, but the methods we use are very effective given the difficulties we have to deal with. I've been with companies that have achieved ( imo pointless ) certification for ISO etc with less structure than the NS development team. I realise that this amounts to nothing more than me claiming to know what I'm talking about. That's what it basically is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We do this work in our limited spare time on a team that is literally scattered across the globe. I'm proud to be apart of this team, and to work with some truely gifted people. Excuse me if I take offense when tantrums are thrown in an attempt to muddy the name of people who do all of this volountarily for your benefit. We expect absolutely nothing in return for our efforts, but we do get to choose who we make those efforts with, and what has been previously referred to as an 'e-personality club' is simply the fact that we refuse to work with disruptive people. If you have a problem with this then I suggest you learn to deal with it because you'll find that's how the world works in general.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-"joee"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("joee")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> also does the "shotgun cocking sound fixed" mean it's not going to do that weird double shot-thing it occasionally does which doesn't do any damage or whatever <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a seperate client side bug. It hasn't been fixed yet.
<!--QuoteBegin-Josheh+Jul 3 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josheh @ Jul 3 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jul 3 2005, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 3 2005, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Josheh+Jul 3 2005, 12:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josheh @ Jul 3 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cloak as buggy said will level the playing feild, som players such as me cant see cloaks while others with older graphics cards can.
Shotgun on the other hand I dont like.
This situation happens twice, and exactly the same each time. Take a skulk running at a marine with a shotgun we have now, the marine will kill the skulk twice.
Now take the random shotgun: there is a chance that the pellets could miss the skulk and their is a chance that they could kill it and there is a chance it could damage it (im not sure how much of a chance with the figures we have been given)
Luck involved like this will make it in some cases much quicker/easier to kill the skulk while in other cases it will make it much harder.
Things like this I hate becuase at the back of my mind I will always wonder if I *could* have kill that skulk if I was luckier.
This is what made me quit WoW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you have to start incorporating another element of play into your game: movement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whats movement got to do with it? Say if you aimed a stationary skulk, aim'ed slightly to the right of it, and then fired, from the description tanke gave us it is possible for the pellets to stay to the left side thus only damaging/missing the skulk (I understand the chance of this happened are very slim, but it could still happen?) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You obviously stopped reading halfway through my post.
Taste them tears. No worries, just delete your custom shotgun crosshairs!
Those things are junk anyway. So dumb. If the marines had a shotgun that would shoot all its pellets in the exact same place every time.. don't you think they'd tweak it just a bit so all those pellets were right in the center.
yeah.
old shotgun made ZERO sense.
New shotgun works like a shotgun. Like the description of the shotgun. And what's 7 degrees in NS? I have no idea! It may be a tighter pattern than previously!
More importantly, it means that you can't just go download a custom shotgun crosshair and instantly gain +10 Shotgun Skill.
That's nummy. Aye Ehm Aych Oh.
Cloak change is interesting. I like leveling the playing field a bit. I don't think it'll be a huge change for most people, at the same time, man, sometimes I could catch those cloaked buggers >:]
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
A question: since cloaking is now 100%, does this mean the gamma locks will be removed? Since I have an ATI card I always had to play with a very high gamma/lightgamma/brightness/etc to see anything because of the locks.
Comments
I would argue that any monitor that is unusually naturally dark, doesn't have very good resolution (older, or is particularly small), or if the user prefers to play the game with darker gamma and constrast settings spotting cloaked aliens in 3.0.x is going to be impossible.
And might I add, and this goes for everyone who has responded to any of these threads in this manner, ditch the negative attitudes about changes. After reading what Zek posted and realizing how far reaching this change could be, I'll take time with the PTs to nail down exactly when 100% cloaking is in effect. But honestly when I see the way people are reacting and then treating each other's opinions in these threads I have to stop and wonder why I should bother. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't trust you to balance the game.
e : flipping meb ended up doing more to fix the spectator bug and hes banned then people who are PT's.
We're very appreciative of the info meb gave us, but to use his success as a criticism of the developers and playtesters is a little silly. That build was running on the NSA server for a few days before meb figured it out. You're basically making a case that nobody who frequents that server except meb deserves to be a pt.
So let me tell you what really happened.
<b>Many eyes make all bugs shallow</b>
The more people experience a bug, and the longer they experience it for, the more likely <b>one of them</b> will figure it out.
In this case it was meb, and we've already publically stated our gratitude to him.
Any CMs remember when 3.0 came out?
One of (maybe <b>the</b>, if it is who I'm thinking of?) best player in Europe posted a whine in the CM forum, about how 3.0 had ruined NS for him. He said that because aliens always choose DC(!), it's too hard for him to kill carapace skulks now, as he was used to only using 20 rounds per skulk.
Give these things time.
lol.
Half of the pellets are randomly distributes within a 7 degree cone, the rest is distributed within a 20 degree cone. This means that the shotgun will always have a fairly consistent spread in the middle of the crosshair, and will in many ways behave like the current shotgun, apart from the fact that it's actually centered now.
If you were able to close-range kill a skulk with the shotgun before, that won't change. Actually, you might experience that due to the randomness, all pellets may every now and then be within the 7 degree cone, and pack quite a punch.
In my experience, the new shotgun actually handles better than the old one, in particular when not using an off-center or pellet-acurate crosshair.
Edit: This would go under "leveling the playing field" that was previously mentioned in this thread.
Shotgun on the other hand I dont like.
This situation happens twice, and exactly the same each time.
Take a skulk running at a marine with a shotgun we have now, the marine will kill the skulk twice.
Now take the random shotgun: there is a chance that the pellets could miss the skulk and their is a chance that they could kill it and there is a chance it could damage it (im not sure how much of a chance with the figures we have been given)
Luck involved like this will make it in some cases much quicker/easier to kill the skulk while in other cases it will make it much harder.
Things like this I hate becuase at the back of my mind I will always wonder if I *could* have kill that skulk if I was luckier.
This is what made me quit WoW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where you have to start incorporating another element of play into your game: movement. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whats movement got to do with it? Say if you aimed a stationary skulk, aim'ed slightly to the right of it, and then fired, from the description tanke gave us it is possible for the pellets to stay to the left side thus only damaging/missing the skulk (I understand the chance of this happened are very slim, but it could still happen?)
You'll be glad to hear that JazzX doesn't, then.
Once again, the PTs are not hired to design this game, they are not even brought on board to generate balance feedback. Stop accusing them of the decisions found by us, the dev team, please.
Since playtesters don't balance the game, who does it ? Are the devs like, yeah we'll change this and that, see what playtesters say, then release it, and eventually listen to the people who whine loudest for balance tweaks ?
We first created a client-side version. This version included a number of 'normative' changes - stuff that brought the game into the direction we considered benefical and in line with Flayra's bigger vision. These changes were sanity checked first by the PTs, and, later, by the CMs, to create a generally 'playable' experience, which we released.
Then (and after that unfortunate episode surrounding 3.0.1), we waited a while (I think it was pretty exactly a month) and then started sampling people's reactions. This can be seen most clearly in tanke's first balance feedback thread, additionally to that, we had a lot of individual feedback, and of course also personal experiences.
We took all this, discussed the points raised (which were surprisingly conciese across the board), and started hammering away on possible solutions, until we arrived - more or less by consensus - at what became 3.0.2.
This, then, got another month in turn, after which we did the same evaluations, and so on, until 3.0.4, which we feel has pretty much succeeded at 3.0f's set goal, the creation of a balanced, <i>fun</i> early game (yes, we are aware of the issues around middle and late game, but there's only so much one can tackle at once). 3.0.5 will thus consist of a number of technical tweaks, which might or might not be followed by another tweak, depending on how fast we get 3.1 out - after which the balancing game will start anew.
This is not in fact the case.
And if you honestly think players like Civilian and Mustang are incapable of spotting anything in upcoming versions that will ruin the balance of NS, then there's really not a lot that will satisfy you.
I think a lot of us are pretty sick of jealousy manifesting itself into hate against the playtesters. Get over it. It's been going on for many, many months now. Forum posts here and there, comments in IRC channels by various players. It's low to keep making little digs at the playtest team when they've done nothing to you.
Hell, even two of your clanmates are playtesters. Have a little faith in them, maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then, that fuels my fire even more. If they spotted and discussed it during b6 testing and nothing was done then either, that only proves that some people who complained had played the "couple of weeks" we were told to give the version.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with jealousy. I've quit playing NS at least for the moment, due to studies, so wanting to become a playtester would be a somewhat strange desire at this time. Besides, everyone's saying the primary job of playtesters is to walk through maps while playing 3v3 combat and looking for map and crash bugs, so jealousy is a bit much to ask.
Regardless, I'm not digging at the playtest team, the playtest leads or even the developers. I'm just stating that I'm not prepared to take their word when they say "trust me/us" in reply to concernes voiced by players prior to releases, because the track record of such promises isnt that great.
That said, I do trust in the developers and the playtesters and leads (the people "in the know") to want the best for NS. I'm not questioning that what so ever. But a will to do something does not always equal ability, and what a few can have missed while bug testing and discussing future features, one or two of a great many could possibly think off while reading the changelog. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps not, but every time someone present their worries of a future version in a post longer than one paragrah doesnt call for an army of people defending the honor of said groups.
See what you have made me do just because of the few words "trust us" in response to the worries of some pretty dedicated fans of NS.
If I seem harsh its due to abstinence after several weeks without NS.
We fully admit that we don't know nor understand all the consequences of all our changes, some due to the complex nature of the game, technical issues, or the complex organism known as "the Community".
But it's an iterative proces, and we learn from both mistakes and successes: We can only get better at the job.
Nay-saying will always be there, and there will always be pros and cons with every change we do. We try to weight them up and judge them as good as we can, but nothing will ever be fully tested, fully balanced and perfect. Not even game developing juggernauts such as EA or Blizzard can do that, so no sane person can demand that of a small hobby team either.
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PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did.
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PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's and for some reason is banned [what], and the people who play the game most only have a token representation in the PT group.
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PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's and for some reason is banned [what], and the people who play the game most only have a token representation in the PT group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You want to talk about Zunni's dev corner show or something related to it? Fine, I encourage you to do so.
But if you or meb wants to discuss the reason(s) a member is banned, you can stop right now. That sort of dirty laundry does <i>not</i> get aired out here in public. You talk to me or another staff member, and that's it.
also does the "shotgun cocking sound fixed" mean it's not going to do that weird double shot-thing it occasionally does which doesn't do any damage or whatever
You'll be glad to hear that JazzX doesn't, then.
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Thank God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PARDEN ME? EL OH EL.
Meb didn't figure the bug out, I'll give you two guesses for who did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mixed the two of you up, sorry ultranewb. Meb produced the demo, you produced the explanation. We had previous demos from the 3.0 cm testing, initially from avl and later from kalessin. Then a bug was fixed and the test was run on NSA. We hoped the bug we fixed was the cause of the invulnerable entities, but as we all know now, it was the spectator bug.
<!--QuoteBegin-"joee"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("joee")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
the point was he ended up doing more then most of the pt's
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Simply not true. You just think he did more than most pts. And your evidence for this is simply that meb did something. You are comparing a known to an unknown and choosing to regard your friend's effort as the more substantial one. How naieve do you think we are?
I've worked as a software developer for over 10 years for three very successful companies. I've seen all kinds of development methodoligies with various levels of effectiveness. All of them have their problems, but the methods we use are very effective given the difficulties we have to deal with. I've been with companies that have achieved ( imo pointless ) certification for ISO etc with less structure than the NS development team. I realise that this amounts to nothing more than me claiming to know what I'm talking about. That's what it basically is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We do this work in our limited spare time on a team that is literally scattered across the globe. I'm proud to be apart of this team, and to work with some truely gifted people. Excuse me if I take offense when tantrums are thrown in an attempt to muddy the name of people who do all of this volountarily for your benefit. We expect absolutely nothing in return for our efforts, but we do get to choose who we make those efforts with, and what has been previously referred to as an 'e-personality club' is simply the fact that we refuse to work with disruptive people. If you have a problem with this then I suggest you learn to deal with it because you'll find that's how the world works in general.
also does the "shotgun cocking sound fixed" mean it's not going to do that weird double shot-thing it occasionally does which doesn't do any damage or whatever
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That's a seperate client side bug. It hasn't been fixed yet.
Shotgun on the other hand I dont like.
This situation happens twice, and exactly the same each time.
Take a skulk running at a marine with a shotgun we have now, the marine will kill the skulk twice.
Now take the random shotgun: there is a chance that the pellets could miss the skulk and their is a chance that they could kill it and there is a chance it could damage it (im not sure how much of a chance with the figures we have been given)
Luck involved like this will make it in some cases much quicker/easier to kill the skulk while in other cases it will make it much harder.
Things like this I hate becuase at the back of my mind I will always wonder if I *could* have kill that skulk if I was luckier.
This is what made me quit WoW. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where you have to start incorporating another element of play into your game: movement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whats movement got to do with it? Say if you aimed a stationary skulk, aim'ed slightly to the right of it, and then fired, from the description tanke gave us it is possible for the pellets to stay to the left side thus only damaging/missing the skulk (I understand the chance of this happened are very slim, but it could still happen?) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously stopped reading halfway through my post.
It's in the announcement forum <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95530' target='_blank'>here</a>
Taste them tears. No worries, just delete your custom shotgun crosshairs!
Those things are junk anyway. So dumb. If the marines had a shotgun that would shoot all its pellets in the exact same place every time..
don't you think they'd tweak it just a bit so all those pellets were right in the center.
yeah.
old shotgun made ZERO sense.
New shotgun works like a shotgun. Like the description of the shotgun. And what's 7 degrees in NS? I have no idea! It may be a tighter pattern than previously!
More importantly, it means that you can't just go download a custom shotgun crosshair and instantly gain +10 Shotgun Skill.
That's nummy. Aye Ehm Aych Oh.
Cloak change is interesting. I like leveling the playing field a bit. I don't think it'll be a huge change for most people, at the same time, man, sometimes I could catch those cloaked buggers >:]
Has anyone been testing on Windows x64?