I'm somewhat of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism#Negative_utilitarianism' target='_blank'>negative utilitarian</a>. I think that it's somewhat more important to minimize pain than maximize pleasure, although I'm not hard and fast about it.
I'm surprised that everyone who's posted here has been a moral relativist, rather than a moral absolutist. Where are the Bible thumpers?
No thanks, I might answer incorretly. The definition is far too subjective, and each person has a different (if ever so slightly) opinion on it. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Jul 5 2005, 09:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Jul 5 2005, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm somewhat of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism#Negative_utilitarianism' target='_blank'>negative utilitarian</a>. I think that it's somewhat more important to minimize pain than maximize pleasure, although I'm not hard and fast about it.
I'm surprised that everyone who's posted here has been a moral relativist, rather than a moral absolutist. Where are the Bible thumpers? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *thumps his Bible*
My view is simple.
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. (Among others.)
Wrong: is everything that God stands against: Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. (Also, Among others.)
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+Jul 5 2005, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ Jul 5 2005, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 06:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 06:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My view is simple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I always laugh when I hear people say that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was my view complex?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you managed to simplify it by dividing your beliefs into broad catagories. It might be complex underneath, but it looks simple on the surface.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you managed to simplify it by dividing your beliefs into broad catagories. It might be complex underneath, but it looks simple on the surface. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I mean, if we really discussed it IN-DEPTH, it would be pretty complex because you would need Biblical context etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong: is everything that God stands against: ...Rebellion... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me. Abraham: If you say so. God: Oops, just kidding. Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you!
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong: is everything that God stands against: ...Rebellion... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me. Abraham: If you say so. God: Oops, just kidding. Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh God, you're such a kidder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 5 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 5 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. Among others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cyndane, stop it. Seriously. I have nothing against you personally, you're a very cool girl and all, and I respect your opinion. That opinion needs to be expressed where it belongs, though: In threads discussing religion specifically. I have nothing wrong with your Bible bashing, since you can back up your words, but please stop taking every single opportunity to bash the Bible.
Obviously, DarkATi was not taught that what God stands for is what you changed. Therefore, his belief in God, his definition of what God is, is not what you just tried to say it is. Therefore, you have not "fixed" anything, but merely attempted to force your definition of what God is on him. Joke or not, all you could have possibly accomplished by posting that was starting a flame war. So cut it out.
A little righteous indignation for you, because I was pushing the quotation around earlier.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ephesians 4:26-27+NetBible (same meaning in KJV and NAS, though some disagree)--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ephesians 4:26-27 @ NetBible (same meaning in KJV and NAS, though some disagree))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on the cause of your anger. Do not give the devil an opportunity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One major advantage to an intrinsic definition of right and wrong is that your intuition and beliefs define it, rather than relying on the interpretations and representations of others. Claiming that "these are as defined by God", or even "these are as defined in the Bible", is simply wrong. "There are as I believe God defined them" is more to the point. "These are as was taught and believe they should be", however, is the truth of the matter.
Broad categories do not work, and moral absolutes are few and far between. Having a list of "evils" is rather pointless when they must all be qualified with "unless it is for the greater good". Why not simply state that good means that which results in a net improvement in the state of the world?
A thought experiment to annoy the faithful with: Consider what a smart satanic influence would do to counter God. How about corrupting religious messages just enough so that the blindly devout are led astray...
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Jul 6 2005, 09:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Jul 6 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You gotta admit that theclam has a point though: God HAS deceived on occasion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, now we get into the complex.
First and foremost, remember that I said "wrong" is any and everything that stands <b>against</b> God. How can God stand against himself? He can't and He doesn't.
The same type of question has been asked before, "Is God on an Ego trip?"
The answer is, "no." God is God. And the only God. (In the context of the Bible, mind you, you may not feel that way.) But in the context of the Bible, there is no God beside him. If the Bible is true (let us play pretend) then he has every right to desire worship. He is who He says He is, and that is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the beginning and the end - the one and only God, a self-proclaimed jealous God.
How can God proclaim himself to be jealous when he commands us not to covet?
You see, it's because He is who He says He is.
Now, onto the subject of deception.
Is deception itself evil? If a building looks small from the outside but is in fact large inside, it has decieved you. Is that building evil?
Deception is not inherently evil. It is that deception which knowingly ends in evil that makes deception itself, evil. Deception for any purpose other than good, where honesty cannot convey or create that same good, is evil.
Furthermore, the same rules DO NOT apply to God, if they did, God would be bound by man and a bound-by-man-god is no god at all.
Isaiah 55:7-9
<b>Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. "For your thoughts are not my thoughts and your ways are not my ways," saith the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the Earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."</b>
Religion and spirituality may be fun to discuss and debate here. But I pray that every man and woman on these boards has sought or is seeking truth. If a man says, "at noon tomorrow you will die." Won't you go looking for an answer? While the creator of the universe (self-proclaimed, you don't have to think he is) says, "I love you but you're dying. Live with me, forever." and what do you do?
If I knew I was going to die? Well, I've pretty much found my answer already. Even if I hadn't, I'd spend the time trying to lessen the blow for those who'd miss me rather than waste my time looking for something that's about to come to me anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong: is everything that God stands against: ...Rebellion... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me. Abraham: If you say so. God: Oops, just kidding. Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh God, you're such a kidder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've heard he does a great stand-up act.
The wink at the end of the sentence was to indicate a joke.... Sadly humor and sarcasm don't always carry well with text. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.
On to the topic.
Right and wrong are so subjective that there isn't anyway to define them, which is why we have some weird rules and laws in various countries.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 6 2005, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 6 2005, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The wink at the end of the sentence was to indicate a joke.... Sadly humor and sarcasm don't always carry well with text. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw the humour, that's why I said "joke or not". It just wasn't very funny.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He wasn't interrupting the thread to say "God stands for this, so you're all wrong." He was adding to the thread by saying that his morals match his god's morals.
Anyway, yeah. Stopping the whole stray to a whole different subject... You guys have made a good point in this thread, about how things that are normally wrong become right for the greater good.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jul 6 2005, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jul 6 2005, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 6 2005, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 6 2005, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The wink at the end of the sentence was to indicate a joke.... Sadly humor and sarcasm don't always carry well with text. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw the humour, that's why I said "joke or not". It just wasn't very funny.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He wasn't interrupting the thread to say "God stands for this, so you're all wrong." He was adding to the thread by saying that his morals match his god's morals.
Anyway, yeah. Stopping the whole stray to a whole different subject... You guys have made a good point in this thread, about how things that are normally wrong become right for the greater good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So now, let's continue.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 6 2005, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 6 2005, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There isn't a greater good, which is why we have issues with "moralality" today. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kinda sad. No greater good? Is there any good, then?
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jul 6 2005, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jul 6 2005, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 6 2005, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 6 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 6 2005, 01:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 6 2005, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There isn't a greater good, which is why we have issues with "moralality" today. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kinda sad. No greater good? Is there any good, then?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe the greater good is the least wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Plenty of people feel that way but that system doesn't seem to work. The Bible is black and white. In the sense that God is good and everything that stands in opposition to God, is bad. The rules themselves aren't nearly as black and white as most Christians portray them but the philosophy is extremely black and white.
The reason I don't think that your "least wrong" idea works is because everyone's version of wrong varies. While the Bible stands on it's own two feet as a measure and guide. If not the Bible, then what? There has to be some standard or everything falls away to decay.
No offense Ati, but unless you wish to start with how badly the bible contradicts itself with its own laws... I would reccommend leaving it out of a "right and wrong" discussion.
Secular beliefs have supported civilization for quite a while, and they will keep doing so. Heh, almost all of the laws in the bible have been tossed aside for the good of communites not what "god" wants us to do.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 6 2005, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 6 2005, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Plenty of people feel that way but that system doesn't seem to work. The Bible is black and white. In the sense that God is good and everything that stands in opposition to God, is bad. The rules themselves aren't nearly as black and white as most Christians portray them but the philosophy is extremely black and white.
The reason I don't think that your "least wrong" idea works is because everyone's version of wrong varies. While the Bible stands on it's own two feet as a measure and guide. If not the Bible, then what? There has to be some standard or everything falls away to decay.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not touching how good the bible is as a moral compass to those who don't believe in God, an ideology (I guess you'd call it) like mine is very flexible. I don't need to read a thousand page+ book to know the laws for such-and-such.
The number of churches/sects out there tells me that the Bible isn't a perfect standard, either, nor is it black and white.
We'll probably never come to a consensus, because we all have different perspectives, and so won't even be able to agree on a standard. Laws do a good job of bridging the gap, but they're not perfect. There are some laws I think are unnecessary.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No offense Ati, but unless you wish to start with how badly the bible contradicts itself with its own laws... I would reccommend leaving it out of a "right and wrong" discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free, if you would like to discuss these contradictions, just keep it civil.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secular beliefs have supported civilization for quite a while, and they will keep doing so. Heh, almost all of the laws in the bible have been tossed aside for the good of communites not what "god" wants us to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Murder, too, has endured; so it seems that the "good" and "bad" support themselves throughout history. Endurance does not make something correct. It makes it durable at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not touching how good the bible is as a moral compass to those who don't believe in God, an ideology (I guess you'd call it) like mine is very flexible. I don't need to read a thousand page+ book to know the laws for such-and-such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you know, aside from those who have been twisted mentally, everyone knows right from wrong. (Past a certain age.)
The Bible supports this.
Genesis 3:5
[serpent speaking here]"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
I just bought a 1988 RX-7. I didn't know, cause I'm not a big car buff at the time but it has a rotary engine. I know a little about piston engines but not alot, I certainly know nothing about rotary engines. So I went out and bought a several hundred page book on my exact car. That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong. I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The number of churches/sects out there tells me that the Bible isn't a perfect standard, either, nor does it help create a black and white situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can take it that way, or you can take it to mean that people aren't perfect. I believe that the Bible is perfect, God's Holy and inspired word. (to clarify I don't believe the individual translations are inspired, only the original manuscripts.) People compose churches/sects and to err... is human. Therefore, no wonder they aren't perfect. This doesn't mean there is a problem with God but a problem with man.
That's a strange example to give. I don't think nudity is wrong. If I'm in the house alone, I'll quite happily shed my clothes, especially on a warm day. I only wear them in public/in company because:
1) Weather. 2) Social convention.
If it were true that everyone inherently knows right from wrong, I could flick through the bible and recognise which actions are good and which are bad. However, it strikes me that God does some (<i>purely my feelings and meaning no offense</i>) vicious things. So either God is evil (false), I don't really think God does some nasty things (false), or we don't have a pre-built in conscience.
As for the second point; it doesn't matter whether man is corrupt or whether the bible isn't perfect; because we can't all agree on the message, we can't use it as a standard. A lot of it also requires faith, which is not something everyone has.
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was only considered bad because they had eaten the apple, and they thought it was bad, however prior to that incident being naked was natural. That is a horrible example. Also, using the KJV is a even bigger farce then that out of context quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would work, but... its "history" isn't history, there is no history basis in the bible other then a collection of stories that are just retold from other older legends and myths.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would suggest you get on with your killing of non-virgin married women then.
What they actually say: "Right is how I interpret what God says is right."
Unless you can prove that your interpretation of God's opinions are more accurate than how millions of other people interpret it, it doesn't do much good using the bible (or whatever religious scripture you're refering to) as an argument for your belief. It doesn't discredit your belief, but it doesn't support it either. At the end of the day "This is what God says is right" = "This is what I think God says is right" = "This is what I think is right".
Comments
I'm surprised that everyone who's posted here has been a moral relativist, rather than a moral absolutist. Where are the Bible thumpers?
No thanks, I might answer incorretly. The definition is far too subjective, and each person has a different (if ever so slightly) opinion on it. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?
I'm surprised that everyone who's posted here has been a moral relativist, rather than a moral absolutist. Where are the Bible thumpers? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*thumps his Bible*
My view is simple.
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. (Among others.)
Wrong: is everything that God stands against: Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. (Also, Among others.)
~ DarkATi
I always laugh when I hear people say that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I always laugh when I hear people say that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was my view complex?
~ DarkATi
I always laugh when I hear people say that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was my view complex?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you managed to simplify it by dividing your beliefs into broad catagories. It might be complex underneath, but it looks simple on the surface.
I always laugh when I hear people say that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was my view complex?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you managed to simplify it by dividing your beliefs into broad catagories. It might be complex underneath, but it looks simple on the surface. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I mean, if we really discussed it IN-DEPTH, it would be pretty complex because you would need Biblical context etc.
~ DarkATi
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. Among others.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. Among others.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh oh. I sense dark times ahead.
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. Among others.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to back your opinion up? I'm intrigued...
~ DarkATi
How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me.
Abraham: If you say so.
God: Oops, just kidding.
Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you!
How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me.
Abraham: If you say so.
God: Oops, just kidding.
Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh God, you're such a kidder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right: is everything that God stands for: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, Hate, Greed, Lust, Deceit, Slander, Rebellion, Cowardice, and Deception. Among others.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cyndane, stop it. Seriously. I have nothing against you personally, you're a very cool girl and all, and I respect your opinion. That opinion needs to be expressed where it belongs, though: In threads discussing religion specifically. I have nothing wrong with your Bible bashing, since you can back up your words, but please stop taking every single opportunity to bash the Bible.
Obviously, DarkATi was not taught that what God stands for is what you changed. Therefore, his belief in God, his definition of what God is, is not what you just tried to say it is. Therefore, you have not "fixed" anything, but merely attempted to force your definition of what God is on him. Joke or not, all you could have possibly accomplished by posting that was starting a flame war. So cut it out.
Thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ephesians 4:26-27+NetBible (same meaning in KJV and NAS, though some disagree)--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ephesians 4:26-27 @ NetBible (same meaning in KJV and NAS, though some disagree))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on the cause of your anger. Do not give the devil an opportunity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One major advantage to an intrinsic definition of right and wrong is that your intuition and beliefs define it, rather than relying on the interpretations and representations of others. Claiming that "these are as defined by God", or even "these are as defined in the Bible", is simply wrong. "There are as I believe God defined them" is more to the point. "These are as was taught and believe they should be", however, is the truth of the matter.
Broad categories do not work, and moral absolutes are few and far between. Having a list of "evils" is rather pointless when they must all be qualified with "unless it is for the greater good". Why not simply state that good means that which results in a net improvement in the state of the world?
A thought experiment to annoy the faithful with: Consider what a smart satanic influence would do to counter God. How about corrupting religious messages just enough so that the blindly devout are led astray...
Ah, now we get into the complex.
First and foremost, remember that I said "wrong" is any and everything that stands <b>against</b> God. How can God stand against himself? He can't and He doesn't.
The same type of question has been asked before, "Is God on an Ego trip?"
The answer is, "no." God is God. And the only God. (In the context of the Bible, mind you, you may not feel that way.) But in the context of the Bible, there is no God beside him. If the Bible is true (let us play pretend) then he has every right to desire worship. He is who He says He is, and that is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the beginning and the end - the one and only God, a self-proclaimed jealous God.
How can God proclaim himself to be jealous when he commands us not to covet?
You see, it's because He is who He says He is.
Now, onto the subject of deception.
Is deception itself evil? If a building looks small from the outside but is in fact large inside, it has decieved you. Is that building evil?
Deception is not inherently evil. It is that deception which knowingly ends in evil that makes deception itself, evil. Deception for any purpose other than good, where honesty cannot convey or create that same good, is evil.
Furthermore, the same rules DO NOT apply to God, if they did, God would be bound by man and a bound-by-man-god is no god at all.
Isaiah 55:7-9
<b>Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. "For your thoughts are not my thoughts and your ways are not my ways," saith the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the Earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."</b>
Religion and spirituality may be fun to discuss and debate here. But I pray that every man and woman on these boards has sought or is seeking truth. If a man says, "at noon tomorrow you will die." Won't you go looking for an answer? While the creator of the universe (self-proclaimed, you don't have to think he is) says, "I love you but you're dying. Live with me, forever." and what do you do?
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 5 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong: is everything that God stands against: ...Rebellion... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How dare you say that the day after Independence Day! If it weren't for Rebellion, you'd still be speaking English!
As for Cyndane's comment, I can explain a couple of those. God exhibits deception and deceit.
God: Sacrifice your son to me.
Abraham: If you say so.
God: Oops, just kidding.
Abraham: Oh God, you used deception to deceive me! I love you! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh God, you're such a kidder. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've heard he does a great stand-up act.
Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.
On to the topic.
Right and wrong are so subjective that there isn't anyway to define them, which is why we have some weird rules and laws in various countries.
There are always exceptions to the norm.
I saw the humour, that's why I said "joke or not". It just wasn't very funny.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wasn't interrupting the thread to say "God stands for this, so you're all wrong." He was adding to the thread by saying that his morals match his god's morals.
Anyway, yeah. Stopping the whole stray to a whole different subject... You guys have made a good point in this thread, about how things that are normally wrong become right for the greater good.
I saw the humour, that's why I said "joke or not". It just wasn't very funny.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that whole what god stands for belongs in a different thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wasn't interrupting the thread to say "God stands for this, so you're all wrong." He was adding to the thread by saying that his morals match his god's morals.
Anyway, yeah. Stopping the whole stray to a whole different subject... You guys have made a good point in this thread, about how things that are normally wrong become right for the greater good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now, let's continue.
What is the greater good?
Discuss.
~ DarkATi
That's kinda sad. No greater good? Is there any good, then?
~ DarkATi
That's kinda sad. No greater good? Is there any good, then?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the greater good is the least wrong.
That's kinda sad. No greater good? Is there any good, then?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the greater good is the least wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plenty of people feel that way but that system doesn't seem to work. The Bible is black and white. In the sense that God is good and everything that stands in opposition to God, is bad. The rules themselves aren't nearly as black and white as most Christians portray them but the philosophy is extremely black and white.
The reason I don't think that your "least wrong" idea works is because everyone's version of wrong varies. While the Bible stands on it's own two feet as a measure and guide. If not the Bible, then what? There has to be some standard or everything falls away to decay.
~ DarkATi
Secular beliefs have supported civilization for quite a while, and they will keep doing so. Heh, almost all of the laws in the bible have been tossed aside for the good of communites not what "god" wants us to do.
The reason I don't think that your "least wrong" idea works is because everyone's version of wrong varies. While the Bible stands on it's own two feet as a measure and guide. If not the Bible, then what? There has to be some standard or everything falls away to decay.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not touching how good the bible is as a moral compass to those who don't believe in God, an ideology (I guess you'd call it) like mine is very flexible. I don't need to read a thousand page+ book to know the laws for such-and-such.
The number of churches/sects out there tells me that the Bible isn't a perfect standard, either, nor is it black and white.
We'll probably never come to a consensus, because we all have different perspectives, and so won't even be able to agree on a standard. Laws do a good job of bridging the gap, but they're not perfect. There are some laws I think are unnecessary.
Feel free, if you would like to discuss these contradictions, just keep it civil.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secular beliefs have supported civilization for quite a while, and they will keep doing so. Heh, almost all of the laws in the bible have been tossed aside for the good of communites not what "god" wants us to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Murder, too, has endured; so it seems that the "good" and "bad" support themselves throughout history. Endurance does not make something correct. It makes it durable at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not touching how good the bible is as a moral compass to those who don't believe in God, an ideology (I guess you'd call it) like mine is very flexible. I don't need to read a thousand page+ book to know the laws for such-and-such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you know, aside from those who have been twisted mentally, everyone knows right from wrong. (Past a certain age.)
The Bible supports this.
Genesis 3:5
[serpent speaking here]"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
I just bought a 1988 RX-7. I didn't know, cause I'm not a big car buff at the time but it has a rotary engine. I know a little about piston engines but not alot, I certainly know nothing about rotary engines. So I went out and bought a several hundred page book on my exact car. That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong. I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The number of churches/sects out there tells me that the Bible isn't a perfect standard, either, nor does it help create a black and white situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can take it that way, or you can take it to mean that people aren't perfect. I believe that the Bible is perfect, God's Holy and inspired word. (to clarify I don't believe the individual translations are inspired, only the original manuscripts.) People compose churches/sects and to err... is human. Therefore, no wonder they aren't perfect. This doesn't mean there is a problem with God but a problem with man.
~ DarkATi
1) Weather.
2) Social convention.
If it were true that everyone inherently knows right from wrong, I could flick through the bible and recognise which actions are good and which are bad. However, it strikes me that God does some (<i>purely my feelings and meaning no offense</i>) vicious things. So either God is evil (false), I don't really think God does some nasty things (false), or we don't have a pre-built in conscience.
As for the second point; it doesn't matter whether man is corrupt or whether the bible isn't perfect; because we can't all agree on the message, we can't use it as a standard. A lot of it also requires faith, which is not something everyone has.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was only considered bad because they had eaten the apple, and they thought it was bad, however prior to that incident being naked was natural. That is a horrible example. Also, using the KJV is a even bigger farce then that out of context quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would work, but... its "history" isn't history, there is no history basis in the bible other then a collection of stories that are just retold from other older legends and myths.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest you get on with your killing of non-virgin married women then.
"Right is what God says is right."
What they actually say:
"Right is how I interpret what God says is right."
Unless you can prove that your interpretation of God's opinions are more accurate than how millions of other people interpret it, it doesn't do much good using the bible (or whatever religious scripture you're refering to) as an argument for your belief. It doesn't discredit your belief, but it doesn't support it either. At the end of the day "This is what God says is right" = "This is what I think God says is right" = "This is what I think is right".