Whats Wrong With Combat
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">2 things</div> What we need to fix about co.
<u><b>I) Expendable lifeforms.</b></u><ul><li><u>Experience imbalance</u>. Even bad fades/onos kill more than one marine before they die. That's at least a 2:1 ratio children.*</li><li><u>Frustrating</u>. In ns, it's very satisfying when you kill a fade because he won't come back for a while. In co, it's very un-fun to have to face the same fade again before you can reload your hmg. Especially when he gloats.</li><li><u>Doesn't train newbies</u>. With expendable lifeforms, there's no incentive to stay alive. The gloating fade with a 20-9 Co score goes into an ns game, res wh*res to fade, dies, and blames it on lag.</li></ul>Less of a problem with marine equipment - everything except heavy trains is pretty expendable in ns.
*Not a huge problem in vanila co because of the 10 level cap... but on extra upgrades servers (i.e. ~90% of them) it becomes a HUGE problem!
<b><u>II) Upgrade imbalance.</u></b> Marines have the same upgrades as in ns; aliens have 6 more. There are a lot of lame combinations that come from this. Some examples:<ul><li><u>Celerity+adrenaline lerk.</u> Normally a dicey tradeoff - adren is great for sporespam but useless for fighting; celerity means you can fly fast but have to be careful with energy. Celerity+adren = endless pancaking. Try it in marine start on kestrel. You can flap around the ceiling with impunity.</li><li><u>Carapace+redem onos.</u> You can't kill the damn thing before it redeems. And you do, it'll be right back before you get a chance to reload your hmg.</li></ul>In ns, you have to make big tradeoffs on upgrades. For higher lifeforms, that means celerity WITHOUT adrenaline, which means managing your energy wisely!
In summary... training wheels are meant to help you learn to ride a bike. They're not another way to ride.
<u><b>I) Expendable lifeforms.</b></u><ul><li><u>Experience imbalance</u>. Even bad fades/onos kill more than one marine before they die. That's at least a 2:1 ratio children.*</li><li><u>Frustrating</u>. In ns, it's very satisfying when you kill a fade because he won't come back for a while. In co, it's very un-fun to have to face the same fade again before you can reload your hmg. Especially when he gloats.</li><li><u>Doesn't train newbies</u>. With expendable lifeforms, there's no incentive to stay alive. The gloating fade with a 20-9 Co score goes into an ns game, res wh*res to fade, dies, and blames it on lag.</li></ul>Less of a problem with marine equipment - everything except heavy trains is pretty expendable in ns.
*Not a huge problem in vanila co because of the 10 level cap... but on extra upgrades servers (i.e. ~90% of them) it becomes a HUGE problem!
<b><u>II) Upgrade imbalance.</u></b> Marines have the same upgrades as in ns; aliens have 6 more. There are a lot of lame combinations that come from this. Some examples:<ul><li><u>Celerity+adrenaline lerk.</u> Normally a dicey tradeoff - adren is great for sporespam but useless for fighting; celerity means you can fly fast but have to be careful with energy. Celerity+adren = endless pancaking. Try it in marine start on kestrel. You can flap around the ceiling with impunity.</li><li><u>Carapace+redem onos.</u> You can't kill the damn thing before it redeems. And you do, it'll be right back before you get a chance to reload your hmg.</li></ul>In ns, you have to make big tradeoffs on upgrades. For higher lifeforms, that means celerity WITHOUT adrenaline, which means managing your energy wisely!
In summary... training wheels are meant to help you learn to ride a bike. They're not another way to ride.
Comments
-Brackhar
Still, I share your sentiments.
Then I started to like it every once in a while to escape from thinking.
I think it's too big of a problem now. Waaay too many servers play only combat. Along with that, 90% of those combat servers play with about 2 million plugins, that take any fun out of combat. The way I see it, it's only fun for very small games. When you have a server with 20 people on it, all playing combat, that is just too much.
Now because of combat, when a server ever does switch to an NS map, the games are very lame. You get teams filled with idiots, that do not communicate. I don't hate nubs, if they are willing to try and get better or listen to suggestions. It's the people running around without a care in the world that really bother me. On aliens, half the team saves for a 4 min onos rush, that can't be defended against because 80% of the marine team doesn't know what is going on.
So fun.
I'm really starting to like the NSArmsLab Veteren's Classic server. It's one of the last <i>mostly</i> idiot-free servers left.
Combat sucks. 2 million plugins suck. Plugin-free classic NS FTW
1) Make it so you have to re-earn levels when you die as a lerk, fade, onos, JP or heavy. Lerks, JP and heavies have to re-earn 1 point, fades need 2 and Oni need to regain 2-3 levels.
2) Stop releasing the server binaries so we don't have anymore of the damn 50,000 level servers - it's just stupid for 9 out of 10 servers to have such a huge gameplay changing mod.
3) Limit the aliens to 8 levels and no more than 1 upgrade per type. It will help reduce how overpowered the aliens are in co_ and encourage proper alien gameplay.
Your are right about what CO does to players that try to play a classic NS game. They don't understand the Tech trees for both teams and how the RT system works. They end up causing things to go bad at the worst times, example they don't phase when they are needed to they sit in base asking for things/getting ammo or don't know how to use the gate. For aliens I have seen CO players go onos at two hives and attack MS and I hit remote Beacon and the marines kill him and he screams WTH hacks and bs even though there were like 6 marines putting fire into him with lmgs and hmgs......then after that leaves the game.....bah this is rant......to the point CO has it place it would be nice if it kinda taught ppl the tech tree but seeing how you have one hive as aliens and I agree with the CO plugins having 10 lvls is good enough it makes you think on what your going to spend you points on and plan ahead.
Hive 3 abilities need to disappear from combat, and then either remove or limit the Grenade Launcher (no more webs to worry about)
Otherwise, CO is an outstanding game.
A long time later I downloaded an update for NS out of boredom and played CO. Found it quite fun and played it occasionally, but didn't bother with classic anymore.
Recently I'm playing a lot more online games than I have for a while, getting semi-serious into HL deathmatch. HLDM is hard tho, with all the 5+ years pro players. So when I feel like a break I play some combat, which is a walkover by comparison and a nice ego boost. The pace and the non-serious teamplay is an ideal balance a bit like TFC.
So yeah, actually I could care less about classic NS and I'm waiting for more combat only servers (specially the 32 players).
Classic NS involves thinking and teamwork. Even if you lose it can still be fun if you put up a long fight.
The way combat is right now, new players don't really learn from it. It's too mindless, especially with the million plugin servers.
I agree about the plugins, though. While some of them are a good idea (maximum level raise), most are stupid.
I agree about the plugins, though. While some of them are a good idea (maximum level raise), most are stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you're joking <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That being said, if you want to play competitive combat by all means run the <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>Competitive Combat plugin</a> which creates the following changes<ul><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.</li></ul>
I really really really hate late join more than anything. I wish people just played the game like it was when they downloaded it. With late join, it seems like every game, about half way through someone will join aliens, go onos immediatley and have an ending score of 9999 and 2.
It also pretty much rewards you for stacking the winning team. h8tred for this plugin
Extra levels takes combat games, and stretches them out to be as painfully long as possible. Also, it requires no thinking or planning, because you have so many levels it doesn't matter what you spend your points on because you'll just keep leveling up.
Combat was meant to be short, when servers run all these plugins, the games become 30+ minutes long, and that's just not right...
The only problem with combat is that marines get no XP for making aliens redeem.
Maybe a lot of people simply find modded combat more fun than regular NS?
And why shouldn't they. No commander. No depending on the comm or gorge for upgrades. When that guy with a ping of 300 kills you when you're well around the corner, you can just regestate. With extra levels, you're not punished for getting xeno if you want to Onos later. Late join means you're not an unupgraded skulk vs. JP/HMGs. The action is pretty much constant instead of sporadic. The complaints are far fewer and are mostly about blocking. The open ridicule from your team is certainly less.
I had an idea of having one upgrade per chamber, like in ns_, but have each stage of the upgrade, like 1 point = 1 celerity upgrade, like having 1 chamber in ns_, then another point for 2nd celerity level, like 2nd chamber, it might take some tweaking but the aliens will be able to get level3 of every upgrade with 9 points. Give the aliens more upgrade total points?
Something has to be done about combat, its totally ruining ns_, during the end of 2.0 people were getting better at ns_ and you could have a decent game, i havent had a good game of ns_ since... well i cant even remember <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(1) You can only get one upgrade from each chamber until you get one from each and have the two hive skill (for skulk that is leap + one sensory, one defense, and one movement).
(2) In order to get the three hive skill, you have to already have one upgrade from each chamber (this balances just enough so that in 10-level CO, you can get an Onos with three upgrades and all bonus hive skills only).
(3) Marines get half of the possible experience points if the target alien gets a redemption.
(4) No points for being behind. This is what kills the game the most imo. It creates its own need by making crapy players get big guns/horns that make other crapy players get a few new hole in their faces.
I kinda like CO, but it's just not the same as NS. NS had that feeling to it, you know. You go down a hall with a buddy or two, or none, then you hear the scurrying of skulks rushing towards you, no other game has that feeling.
CO just ruins the atmospere, it's to much like every other Counter-Strike wannabe out there.
In closing, I miss NS, as I can never find an NS server that doesn't lag, doesn't use stupid maps that are bassically hallways, or isn't empty and forgotten.
I suggest macking NS and NS: Combat seperate games, and take them in different derections from now on.
If you don't like CO,don't play it. The message will get across for change,then you'll have to vote for it via a democratic system of YOU'RE PRO/GAMETESTER/1337,YOUR VOTE COUNTS FOR 200.
/sacrasmmenu <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are many things wrong with combat. One is that it exists. Two is that it still exists,and three is that people play it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(i haven't tried out the competitive combat plug yet because honestly i don't play combat unless its over lan, and then its already a small game with friends so i don;t really worry about it yet.)
the problem with combat is that the games get way to big, and even then they involve no strategy, in a 15vs15 game, i bet an organized team could end it in the first 30 seconds, instead of just sitting around spawnkilling trying to get up their kill death ratio
there are 2 problems with combat
1. the type of gameplay it is brings nothing to ns because of its no strategy theme
2. the type of people it attracts usually aren't going to contribute anything to original ns because they prefer deathmatch style games and don't want to think when they fight.
The major problem is
"upgrades and abilities unbalance"
"leap+xeno" = 3 points
Regen+Cara+redemp = 3 points
Foucs+leap/cele = 3 points
with above upgrades u can bring your team to an ownage.
However, poor rines.
What u can get by your points are normal upgrade. dmg, sg, hmg/gl
There s not an upgrade call "beacon"
Not an upgrade call "dual sg, dual pistol, dual hmg, dual GL"
sure they cant take cata forever.
Rines: Normal upgrades.
Aliens: unlimited .
Even they get a shotty with lv 3 dmg and jp
they can easily pwned by a paper fade.
This is the problem.
Classic marines Vesus Satan-like Aliens.
Co is a joke