Beat me to it, H'BNayr; I was planning on drafting my roomie to be a guinea pig for just that experiment. That such a thing occurs is fairly indisputable, it's just a question of whether or not it was intentional, and if not, why one team is behaving properly by HL damage standards while the other one isn't. That's the weird part, since I'd assume that it would take an active effort to circumvent the default armor and damage model.
At least somebody is able to test these things. My roomate is too busy playing his damn DAoC to let me subvert his comp into testing all the various scenarios I want.
<!--QuoteBegin--BoddoZerg+Nov 18 2002, 09:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BoddoZerg @ Nov 18 2002, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For Aliens, armor works differently. Onos with 500 Health and 150 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade. 30% damage = 24 damage goes to Armor. This is halved to 12 damage. Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health. Onos takes 68 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade. 30% damage = 24 damage is halved. It doesnt' matter that there is no Armor, this damage is halved anyways. Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health. Both the halved damage and normal damage are applied to Health (since there is no Armor), so the Onos takes 68 damage to Health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I had a nicely worded and eloquent bit here that was lost when the "Add Reply" button decided to deliver those dreaded numbers, 404, so I'll try to do it again. Understand, however, the second time is always rushed, annoyed, and not nearly as eloquent. Here we go. Again...
OK, this logic would make sense to explain where the 30% goes, as the skulk with level three carapace would take 60% of, say, a pistol shot, half that, even if they didn't have armor (ignoring the fact that it disappears even WITH the armor there to absorb it), 30% of the damage would seem to vanish. But using that logic, an unupgraded skulk has 30% absorb. 30% of the pistol's 20 damage (6 damage) would be taken, halved, and then added to the remaining 70%. Thus a skulk would take only 17 damage from each pistol shot, even without armor. But in my tests, this was not the case. A skulk would take the full 20 damage. Either properly absorbed and transferred along the armor and health, or directly to the health if armor is not available.
When I showed my post to Terminataur, he insisted that there was some amount of negation, however small, even without carapace. I answered that I had seen no evidence for this negation, so went on another server to test this out, myself going to the Kharaa. After several tries with skulk, gorge, fade, and onos, and numberous weapons (knife, pistol, LMG, shotgun, mines), we tested to see if there was any negation. There was none. Everything performed exactly as expected. He conceded the point. Next, I built one defensive chamber and I evolved carapace. With or without armor, 10% of all damage was negated for an attack. Thus, a pistol would do 18 damage rather than 20. A second defensive tower increased the negation to 20%, making the pistol give only 16 damage. And third defense chamber gave, of course, 30% negation, allowing to pistol to do only 14 damage. This was all tested and re-tested, using multiple alien types and multiple weapons, because, basically, it's fun to even run/wall-walk/fly/glide/teleport around the map freely. Heh.
Does this unbalance the Kharaa? Well, we predicted, and confirmed the number of LMG bullets it would take to bring down a Fade. With no carapace, health fails long before the armor, and the Fade goes down in 29 LMG shots. A Fade with level three carapace goes down in a boggling 72 LMG bullets! That's more than twice as many shots.
Please, don't just take my word for it. Test it yourself. You don't need your roommate's computer to test it. Just go on IRC, or AIM, or ICQ, and find a friend with NS. Start a private server and test it out. If there's no big battles occurring, the game doesn't need to be that fast. Just fast enough for the marine to know where he's pointing.
I know I'm forgetting a lot of stuff I had here earlier, but it will come to me in time. In the mean time, if anyone thinks that I make no sense, or has trouble understanding some bit, please, don't hestitate to let me know. I'm always glad to try and clear up an confusions I may have caused.
And if a moderator is available, I think this entire thread should be moved to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=26' target='_blank'>Bug Report</a> section of the forum, and/or be brought to attention of a developer.
As always, thanks for reading. Again.
-Ryan!
Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some hire public relations officers. -- Daniel J. Boorstin
<!--QuoteBegin--Terminotaur+Nov 17 2002, 10:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terminotaur @ Nov 17 2002, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Read the initial post. Some of you lack so much comprehension...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahaah
Dear Lord, look at that, more things being brought out into massive text right before everyones eyes. documentated evidence.
Now guys, go back in game, and test it likewise for humans vs aliens, using say...a lerk with spike shooter against each level of human armor, and see if any negation arrives vs light armor marines at level 1, level 2, and level 3 upgrades
You can talk about it till you get mad but it won't lead anywhere. Anyone should have noticed so far that carapace not only gives you a few armor points but also negates a small part of the damage taken. If this is the intended way carapace works or a bug in applying the increased armor absorbtion only the dev team can say. So all you can do is either wait for an official statement or wait and see what ns 1.03 will be like.
we did test this while upgrading the marine gun damage too right? upgraded weapons is pretty brutal as it is. Hell HMGS alone are pretty overkill in themselves. Penetrating damage + high rate of fire + high level damage + upgraded = rambo. Now have a team of marines with these puppies and heavy armour and tell me aliens don't need that armour. If it is a bug, the aliens need it badly
I would like to set up a test session to get some hard numbers on this. I'm looking to get a numerical result chart similar to BoddoZerg's, but based on experimental data instead of pure math. Anyone interested in spending an hour with me testing whatever aspects of NS that come to mind can private message me so we can set this up.
but being balanced right now doesnt mean the calculations are correct... calculations shd still be fixed... maybe after that give the aliens more armor/hp/better %s
<!--QuoteBegin--Lepris+Nov 23 2002, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lepris @ Nov 23 2002, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we did test this while upgrading the marine gun damage too right? upgraded weapons is pretty brutal as it is. Hell HMGS alone are pretty overkill in themselves. Penetrating damage + high rate of fire + high level damage + upgraded = rambo. Now have a team of marines with these puppies and heavy armour and tell me aliens don't need that armour. If it is a bug, the aliens need it badly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lepris the weakness of the HMG is in it's range.
If your far away it doesn't hit that often. If they are in a close room you get a fade and spam acid rocket in there and the splash damage will kill them when they can't even fire at you.
get on IRC irc.gamesnet.net and join the channel #thetheory you can find HBNayr and Terminotaur and they will probably test anything you want to test.
All that's trying to be proved is that the alien's way of taking damage is bugged, because according to Terminotaur, in one of the chances he was able to track down Flayra and question him, Flayra said both of the Damage Applications, for Marines and for Aliens, is supposed to work THE EXACT SAME WAY. No differnece in the 2
At the moment, there is a difference. That's why this entire bug report exists. Even if no one will give us a straight, and well worded and explained answer, on it. Like the Word "Absorbtion" as opposed to "Negation" the manual and pop-ups with cl_autohelp 1 use the word Absorbtion to reflect the Distribution, or the break down in percentages of where the damage's go, i.e. 30 percent absorbtion means 30 percent of the damage goes to armor, the other 70 percent goes to health, and of course all damage to armor is halfed. Negation is when damage is never even seen, the 20 damage Pistol Bullet never does the full 20 damage, instead it does a percentage of the 20 damage, and then get's Distributed (Absorbed) between the 2 variables (Health and Armor)
As far as trying to do this with FF ON, sorry Hun, but weapons only do 33 % damage with FF ON in the current versions of the game, and drawdamage has been taken out
Ya, but then I'ld have to get an IRC program, and that takes all sorts of downloading and stuff. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know all <i>they</i> want to prove is that it's bugged, but I have a few of my own tests I want to run so I'ld like to be involved in the actual testing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Inexorable+Nov 23 2002, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Inexorable @ Nov 23 2002, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ya, but then I'ld have to get an IRC program, and that takes all sorts of downloading and stuff. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know all <i>they</i> want to prove is that it's bugged, but I have a few of my own tests I want to run so I'ld like to be involved in the actual testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Get IRC and find me on Gamesnet on #thetheory. I'll help run any tests you want. I didn't go in this to prove it was bugged. I was doubtful it WAS bugged, and want ed to see for myself.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
All right, with Highlander and n00bish's help (thanks, guys), I did some careful testing of armor/carapace quirks.
<a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/armorbug.html' target='_blank'>The results of our experiments can be seen right here</a>.
In a nutshell:
1) Carapace automatically imparts a 10, 20, or 30% damage NEGATION - that is, a 10-damage LMG bullet will only do 7 damage to an alien with level3 carapace. This does not happen to marines.
2) All damage dealt to armor is reduced by half. I'm told this is standard for HL armor, and therefore isn't a bug.
Applications: <b>Scenario 1</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. unupgraded Fade (200/125, 30% absorption). LMG does 10 damage per bullet = 7/1.5 damage to H/A. Health will run out before armor; the Fade dies in 29 bullets (29 x 7/1.5 = 203/44 damage).
<b>Scenario 2</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. 3-carapace Fade (200/150; 60% absorption, 30% damage negation). LMG does <b>7</b> damage per bullet = 2.8/2.1 damage to H/A. Health and armor run out simultaneously; the Fade dies in <b>72</b> bullets (72 x 2.8/2.1 = 202/151).
*Numbers are approximate and cannot be entirely accurate due to rounding. Field tests suggest the actual number required to kill a 3-carapace fade is 80 bullets.
Ooooooo.... and it's all filled with graphs and charts. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
so coil, now that you told Terminotaur to shut the **obscenity** up, and he is banned from #naturalselection and #evolutionarily , and so you finally listen to what he has been saying? I know we already talked about this but it looks like you are talking what we already said and documentated and put up on the forum and made it into what looks like <b>your own idea</b>.
All Credit goes to Terminotaur, nice chart coil, really pretty, but all the wonderful information has already been said, thanks though, having it told back again and adding another page to the thread count is just <sarcasm> <i>awesome</i> </sarcasm>
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Nov 23 2002, 11:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Nov 23 2002, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applications: <b>Scenario 1</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. unupgraded Fade (200/125, 30% absorption). LMG does 10 damage per bullet = 7/1.5 damage to H/A. Health will run out before armor; the Fade dies in 29 bullets (29 x 7/1.5 = 203/44 damage).
<b>Scenario 2</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. 3-carapace Fade (200/150; 60% absorption, 30% damage negation). LMG does <b>7</b> damage per bullet = 2.8/2.1 damage to H/A. Health and armor run out simultaneously; the Fade dies in <b>72</b> bullets (72 x 2.8/2.1 = 202/151).
*Numbers are approximate and cannot be entirely accurate due to rounding. Field tests suggest the actual number required to kill a 3-carapace fade is 80 bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Redundancy is cool.
Still, you summed up my entire post using less words, increasing the chances of it being noticed. But Terminataur tested the number of LMG bullets to take down a Fade. He emptied a clip into me, reloaded, and then fired one at a time until I went down. According to his HUD, it took exactly 72 LMG bullets to take down a Fade with level three carapace, not 80. This is still nearly two and a half times the number of LMG shots to take down an unupgraded Fade, 29.
-Ryan!
I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed. -- James Thurber
<!--QuoteBegin--mndeg+Nov 24 2002, 05:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mndeg @ Nov 24 2002, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->um its SUPPOSED negate damage, didnt you read the autohelp?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you read this thread?
Quoting directly from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=11777&st=90' target='_blank'>page 7</a> of THIS THREAD....
Hmm. I brought up the titles.txt for NS, which contains the tool tips.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TechNodeHelp_101 { Increases amount of armor. Each level of carapace absorbs 20% more damage. }<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is what came up. It only says that each level of carapace <b>absorbs</b> 20% more damage, not negates.
-Ryan!
Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it. -- Dan Quayle
dear sweet jesus, coil, fam, greedo, flayra, ban this fool, here we have everyone acknowleding Terminotaur's findings, and some idiot is still passing it off as "your wrong, I'm right"
<!--QuoteBegin--mndeg+Nov 24 2002, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mndeg @ Nov 24 2002, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->do you know what absorbs REALLY means? it means it gives you hp. every play any RPGS? ABSORBS ICE DAMAGE YOU GAIN HEALTH so stop complaining before we start gaining health<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, apparently, you don't understand how armor absorbtion works in Half-life. Or you haven't yet noticed that Half-life isn't an RPG.
First, you take the total amount of damage. Then take the percentage absorbed my armor, half it, and apply it to the armor. Take the remaining damage not absorbed by the armor, and apply it directly to the health. Voila.
If armor absorbtion is supposed to work as NEGATION, then why doesn't it work that way for, say, marine's Heavy Armor? That has 95% absorbtion. Why doesn't it work that way for a skulk with no carapace? They have 30% absorbtion, and NOTHING is negated.
If I haven't explained how this works well, enough, then this is my own fault. But please, don't start posting things like this without even attempting to understand the issue at hand. Read the thread. If you are confused, ask to clear things up. But don't assume Half-life is some kind of MMORPG.
-Ryan!
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. -- Tenessee Williams
<!--QuoteBegin--mndeg+Nov 24 2002, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mndeg @ Nov 24 2002, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Increases amount of armor. Each level of carapace absorbs 20% more damage.
So without carapace according to your idea alien armor would be useless? skulks 10 armor 0 carapace=0% transferred to armor which means that armor is useless without carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, someone hasn't read <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>the manual</a> yet. As you should know, there are changes in the game that have not yet reflected in the tooltips. For example, turrets do not need a turret factory to function is a tool tip for the turrets. Hold walk to climb on walls is a tool tip for the skulk. And adds 20% absorb for carapace per level was a tooltip for carapace, which was changed to 10%. I was merely quoting it, because you attempted to quote it in saying that the tooltip negated damaged. And, good sir, you were sorely wrong. It said, and I quoted, ABSORBED. So, please don't quote something to use in an argument when it is wrong.
"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." -- Bernard Baruch
Wise words.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->skulks 10 armor 0 carapace=0% transferred to armor which means that armor is useless without carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_evolutions_carapace.html' target='_blank'>See for yourself.</a> A skulk with level 0 carapace has 30% absorbtion. Again, please do not post on something you do not understand. Make some attempt to understand the issue before talking as an authoritative figure on it. If you do not understand, ask for help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->use common sense MMORPGS have nothing to do with RPGS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well. I apologize. MMORPGs are not the same thing as RPGs. But in my experience, so many people play MMORPGs that many consider it interchangeable with RPGs. And for certain parts, for example the damage system for different attacks, the words are interchangeable. So yes, I agree that MMORPGs are not the same thing as RPGs, but I don't presume to say that they have nothing to do with each other. In certain scenarios, they are very similar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-i will pay you to not have children<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have tried very hard to stay civil. But it is becoming harder to do so.
If you have to resort to petty insults rather than actually arguing a point, it only reflects the fact that your argument stands on shaky legs.
Now, I could make a sny comment about how I'm sorrowed that Darwin's natural selection has yet to weed your genes out of the pool, but I'm going to try and stay civil.
Now, please make some attempt to understand how the NS armor system works before commenting again. If you have any questions, post them here, and we will attempt to answer them as soon as is possible.
-Ryan!
I think Superman should go on the Larry King show and announce that he would come back to life if people in all 50 states wanted him to. -- Dave Barry
If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex? -- Art Hoppe
<!--QuoteBegin--QuietMischief1+Nov 24 2002, 10:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QuietMischief1 @ Nov 24 2002, 10:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know we already talked about this but it looks like you are talking what we already said and documentated and put up on the forum and made it into what looks like <b>your own idea</b>.
All Credit goes to Terminotaur, nice chart coil, really pretty, but all the wonderful information has already been said, thanks though, having it told back again and adding another page to the thread count is just <sarcasm> <i>awesome</i> </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *grumble*
if you read the first sentence of coils discertation, he states and i quote, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The goal of this experiment was to verify precisely the so-called "armor bug" in Natural Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he just verified the statement with concrete numbers which will help pinpoint and deal with the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kharaa_0z+Nov 24 2002, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kharaa_0z @ Nov 24 2002, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->he just verified the statement with concrete numbers which will help deal with the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but Terminataur and I had the same numbers on the previous page (even testing different weapons as well as different sub-species). If coil were trying to take it as his own idea, then he would have started an entirely new thread, not add to Terminataur's thread. I think it's great that he verified it himself and shared the results, but he fought Terminataur a bit on this point, and then, when making a complete turnaround, didn't give credit where credit was due.
But this is splitting ends. Ladies and gentleman, we can and have verified there is damage negation. Now, this either needs to be brought to the attention of the developers, or the development team needs to come tell us that this was intentional.
-Ryan!
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself. -- A. H. Weiler
Wow... I didn't expect the armor bug to become so complicated. Based on the ~30% damage negation with level 3 carapace, I assumed the mathematically elegant thing, which was that 30% was half of the 60% absorption, so I assumed the bug was directly proportional to the armor absorption. (Since armor naturally ignores 1/2 of all damage done to it) I will have to admit that my assumptions were downright wrong, and actually quite stupid. The actual numbers are nothing like what I assumed based on my personal observation of 30% damage negation.
Based on Coil's testing, the numbers are: Carapace 0, no Armor : 100% damage taken. Carapace 0, full Armor : 65% damage taken to Health, 30% damage taken to Armor. (95% total)
Carapace 1, no Armor : 90% damage taken. Carapace 1, full Armor : 50% damage taken to Health, 36% damage taken to Armor (86% total)
Carapace 2, no Armor : 80% damage taken. Carapace 2, full Armor : 40% damage taken to Health, 40% damage taken to Armor (80% total)
Carapace 3, no Armor : 70% damage taken. Carapace 3, full Armor : 25% damage taken to Health, 44% damage taken to Armor (67% total)
At first glance, these numbers seemed to be wholly without rhyme or reason. The damage taken by a no-Armor skulk seems rather reasonable, but the damage taken by a full Armor gorge are just weird. Instead of getting a 0/10/20/30% damage reduction, the Gorge seems to enjoy a 5/14/20/33% damage reduction. Try finding a pattern in those numbers. I sure can't.
That said, the damage done against Armor is precisely explainable if it is assumed that the absorption values and negation values are precisely what has been postulated; that is, 30/40/50/60 absorb and 0/10/20/30 negate:
Carapace 0 : Caculated 3 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 3 average damage to Armor per hit. Carapace 1 : Calculated 3.6 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 3.6 average damage to Armor per hit. Carapace 2 : Calculated 4 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 4 average damage to Armor per hit. Carapace 3 : Calculated 4.2 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 4.2 average damage to Armor per hit.
However, the damage done to health is perplexing (Assuming that absorption works the way it should, with 0/10/20/30% damage negation)
Carapace 0 : Calculated 14 damage to Health per hit. Measured 13 damage to Health per hit. Carapace 1 : Calculated 10.8 damage to Health per hit. Measured 10 damage to Health per hit. Carapace 2 : Calculated 8 damage to Health per hit. Measured 8 damage to Health per hit. Carapace 3 : Calculated 5.6 damage to Health per hit. Measured 5 damage to Health per hit.
Although these numbers seem pretty close at first, a few things are mathematically disturbing. The first thing you will notice is that, while damage to Armor varied from shot to shot (suggesting that Armor values are kept at higher than integer precision), damage to Health is exactly the same on every shot. (suggesting that health suffers from rounding errors) Yet, the progression of damage to health with carapace level is bizzarre. At carapace level 0, calculated damage is 14 but measured damage is 13. Yet, at carapace level 2, calculated damage is 8 and real damage is 8. Any rounding error that would round 14 down to 13 should round 8 down to 7. This continues to puzzle me.
I am also absolutely puzzled as to how a 0/10/20/30% reduction in damage could be introduced into the game unintentionally. If the damage reduction was closer to 15%/20%/25%/30%, it would be an obvious bug in the way absorption to Armor is calculated. However, 0/10/20/30 is just weird. Because the bug doesn't seem to do anything without carapace upgrades, it is probably a bug in the way upgrades are handled. The only thing that I can think up of is this:
damage handling code (no upgrades): 30% damage is dealt to Armor. Remaining damage goes to Health.
Damage handling (3 upgrades): 30% damage is absorbed by upgrades. 30+30% (60%) of <b>remaining</b> damage is done to Armor. Remaining damage goes to Health.
Probably what happened is that originally, the coders wanted Armor upgrades to simply increase absorption by 10/20/30%. Sometime later they realized that simply increasing absorption on small numerical amounts of armor caused Armor to deplete much faster than Health (rendering armor upgrades relatively useless), so they decided that instead of making armor absorb 60%, it should absorb only 30%, and negate the 30% from upgrades. A mistake in the way this is implemented would lead to something like what we observe.
However, this still leaves me puzzled as to how the damage-to-health gets rounded. No matter how buggy, the Gorge ought to take 14 damage from the Pistol bullet with no Carapace upgrades, yet testing <b>consistently</b> shows that he takes 13 damage. In addition, although this is just anecdotal, I've experienced being a Carapace upgraded Fade and having my Armor die <b>long</b> before my Health. According to every equation we have, a Carapace upgraded Fade should have his health and armor die at precisely the same time. Maybe there's multiple hidden rounding errors somewhere in the damage pipeline, though I fail to see how this can be.
Kudos to everyone who has worked on the Carapace bug. Now we know why Carapace fades are so hard to kill, while Regen fades are easy meat. IMHO, now that its nature is known, this bug should be fixed. Although one could say that it balances out the Kharaa's toughness, what it really does is makes the Kharaa really crappy without Carapace. Any Kharaa strain will see, at a very minimum, a 60% increase in his lifespan when getting carapace upgrade, and most strains get 2x or more. I would much rather see unbugged Aliens with a greater increase in armor per upgrade, much like how the Marines work - a level 3 upgraded marine has 110 armor compared to 50 armor without upgrades; in contrast, no Alien gets any reasonably-sized armor increase; their improved toughness is completely due to the Carapace bugginess.
<!--QuoteBegin--BoddoZerg+Nov 24 2002, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BoddoZerg @ Nov 24 2002, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will have to admit that my assumptions were downright wrong, and actually quite stupid. The actual numbers are nothing like what I assumed based on my personal observation of 30% damage negation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least someone can admit making a mistake here. A couple of pages back, Boddo, I actually brought your post up, pointing out that you may have gotten the 30% from the 60% absorb being halved. Stupid for making that assumption? Not at all. You comprehend the issue very well.
And what of Terminataur's testing? He verified this two weeks ago. I, doubting it myself, tested with him two days ago and gave the results. We had tested it on every alien and every weapon except the HMG, and decided to state what is occuring, a 30% negation. So we gave the results for one alien and one weapon, as more would be redundant. Again, I encouraged everyone to test this themselves.
The easiest way to test the bug is to have the marine drain the armor completely, then allow the alien to restore HP to full, but with 0 armor. Then attack. Because there is no odd armor absorbtion to work in, it is easier to verify. But even with armor there, the negation can be predicted and verified, because of the decimal math that goes on behind the scenes. The gorge's damage reduction is indeed 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%.
And I'm not sure what my original intention was when replying to this, other than to say that I really respect someone who can make a statement, and then when evidence points to the contrary, is able to step foward and admit to making a mistake. There are respected scientists and theologians who sometimes cannot do that.
So thank you.
-Ryan!
She had an unequalled gift... of squeezing big mistakes into small opportunities. -- Henry James
About the progression of damage negating. The 0%/10%/20%/30% is a progression parallel to the 30%/40%/50%/60% armor absorption that Carapace also provides. Perhaps there is some correlation there?
I'm not exactly familiar with how Halflife handles armor, or with what Flayra has done to code the upgrades so I can't be sure, but it's something to think about.
Comments
Onos with 500 Health and 150 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade.
30% damage = 24 damage goes to Armor. This is halved to 12 damage.
Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health.
Onos takes 68 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade.
30% damage = 24 damage is halved. It doesnt' matter that there is no Armor, this damage is halved anyways.
Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health.
Both the halved damage and normal damage are applied to Health (since there is no Armor), so the Onos takes 68 damage to Health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I had a nicely worded and eloquent bit here that was lost when the "Add Reply" button decided to deliver those dreaded numbers, 404, so I'll try to do it again. Understand, however, the second time is always rushed, annoyed, and not nearly as eloquent. Here we go. Again...
OK, this logic would make sense to explain where the 30% goes, as the skulk with level three carapace would take 60% of, say, a pistol shot, half that, even if they didn't have armor (ignoring the fact that it disappears even WITH the armor there to absorb it), 30% of the damage would seem to vanish. But using that logic, an unupgraded skulk has 30% absorb. 30% of the pistol's 20 damage (6 damage) would be taken, halved, and then added to the remaining 70%. Thus a skulk would take only 17 damage from each pistol shot, even without armor. But in my tests, this was not the case. A skulk would take the full 20 damage. Either properly absorbed and transferred along the armor and health, or directly to the health if armor is not available.
When I showed my post to Terminataur, he insisted that there was some amount of negation, however small, even without carapace. I answered that I had seen no evidence for this negation, so went on another server to test this out, myself going to the Kharaa. After several tries with skulk, gorge, fade, and onos, and numberous weapons (knife, pistol, LMG, shotgun, mines), we tested to see if there was any negation. There was none. Everything performed exactly as expected. He conceded the point. Next, I built one defensive chamber and I evolved carapace. With or without armor, 10% of all damage was negated for an attack. Thus, a pistol would do 18 damage rather than 20. A second defensive tower increased the negation to 20%, making the pistol give only 16 damage. And third defense chamber gave, of course, 30% negation, allowing to pistol to do only 14 damage. This was all tested and re-tested, using multiple alien types and multiple weapons, because, basically, it's fun to even run/wall-walk/fly/glide/teleport around the map freely. Heh.
Does this unbalance the Kharaa? Well, we predicted, and confirmed the number of LMG bullets it would take to bring down a Fade. With no carapace, health fails long before the armor, and the Fade goes down in 29 LMG shots. A Fade with level three carapace goes down in a boggling 72 LMG bullets! That's more than twice as many shots.
Please, don't just take my word for it. Test it yourself. You don't need your roommate's computer to test it. Just go on IRC, or AIM, or ICQ, and find a friend with NS. Start a private server and test it out. If there's no big battles occurring, the game doesn't need to be that fast. Just fast enough for the marine to know where he's pointing.
I know I'm forgetting a lot of stuff I had here earlier, but it will come to me in time. In the mean time, if anyone thinks that I make no sense, or has trouble understanding some bit, please, don't hestitate to let me know. I'm always glad to try and clear up an confusions I may have caused.
And if a moderator is available, I think this entire thread should be moved to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=26' target='_blank'>Bug Report</a> section of the forum, and/or be brought to attention of a developer.
As always, thanks for reading. Again.
-Ryan!
Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some hire public relations officers.
-- Daniel J. Boorstin
hahahaah
"It's funny cuz it's true!" - Homer Simpson <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now guys, go back in game, and test it likewise for humans vs aliens, using say...a lerk with spike shooter against each level of human armor, and see if any negation arrives vs light armor marines at level 1, level 2, and level 3 upgrades
You can talk about it till you get mad but it won't lead anywhere. Anyone should have noticed so far that carapace not only gives you a few armor points but also negates a small part of the damage taken. If this is the intended way carapace works or a bug in applying the increased armor absorbtion only the dev team can say. So all you can do is either wait for an official statement or wait and see what ns 1.03 will be like.
but being balanced right now doesnt mean the calculations are correct... calculations shd still be fixed... maybe after that give the aliens more armor/hp/better %s
Lepris the weakness of the HMG is in it's range.
If your far away it doesn't hit that often. If they are in a close room you get a fade and spam acid rocket in there and the splash damage will kill them when they can't even fire at you.
get on IRC irc.gamesnet.net and join the channel #thetheory you can find HBNayr and Terminotaur and they will probably test anything you want to test.
All that's trying to be proved is that the alien's way of taking damage is bugged, because according to Terminotaur, in one of the chances he was able to track down Flayra and question him, Flayra said both of the Damage Applications, for Marines and for Aliens, is supposed to work THE EXACT SAME WAY. No differnece in the 2
At the moment, there is a difference. That's why this entire bug report exists. Even if no one will give us a straight, and well worded and explained answer, on it. Like the Word "Absorbtion" as opposed to "Negation" the manual and pop-ups with cl_autohelp 1 use the word Absorbtion to reflect the Distribution, or the break down in percentages of where the damage's go, i.e. 30 percent absorbtion means 30 percent of the damage goes to armor, the other 70 percent goes to health, and of course all damage to armor is halfed. Negation is when damage is never even seen, the 20 damage Pistol Bullet never does the full 20 damage, instead it does a percentage of the 20 damage, and then get's Distributed (Absorbed) between the 2 variables (Health and Armor)
As far as trying to do this with FF ON, sorry Hun, but weapons only do 33 % damage with FF ON in the current versions of the game, and drawdamage has been taken out
I know all <i>they</i> want to prove is that it's bugged, but I have a few of my own tests I want to run so I'ld like to be involved in the actual testing.
I know all <i>they</i> want to prove is that it's bugged, but I have a few of my own tests I want to run so I'ld like to be involved in the actual testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get IRC and find me on Gamesnet on #thetheory. I'll help run any tests you want. I didn't go in this to prove it was bugged. I was doubtful it WAS bugged, and want ed to see for myself.
I was promptly floored.
<a href='http://www.mirc.com' target='_blank'>MiRC.</a>
-Ryan!
A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled.
-- Sir Barnett **obscenity**
<a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/armorbug.html' target='_blank'>The results of our experiments can be seen right here</a>.
In a nutshell:
1) Carapace automatically imparts a 10, 20, or 30% damage NEGATION - that is, a 10-damage LMG bullet will only do 7 damage to an alien with level3 carapace. This does not happen to marines.
2) All damage dealt to armor is reduced by half. I'm told this is standard for HL armor, and therefore isn't a bug.
Applications:
<b>Scenario 1</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. unupgraded Fade (200/125, 30% absorption). LMG does 10 damage per bullet = 7/1.5 damage to H/A. Health will run out before armor; the Fade dies in 29 bullets (29 x 7/1.5 = 203/44 damage).
<b>Scenario 2</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. 3-carapace Fade (200/150; 60% absorption, 30% damage negation). LMG does <b>7</b> damage per bullet = 2.8/2.1 damage to H/A. Health and armor run out simultaneously; the Fade dies in <b>72</b> bullets (72 x 2.8/2.1 = 202/151).
*Numbers are approximate and cannot be entirely accurate due to rounding. Field tests suggest the actual number required to kill a 3-carapace fade is 80 bullets.
All Credit goes to Terminotaur, nice chart coil, really pretty, but all the wonderful information has already been said, thanks though, having it told back again and adding another page to the thread count is just <sarcasm> <i>awesome</i> </sarcasm>
<b>Scenario 1</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. unupgraded Fade (200/125, 30% absorption). LMG does 10 damage per bullet = 7/1.5 damage to H/A. Health will run out before armor; the Fade dies in 29 bullets (29 x 7/1.5 = 203/44 damage).
<b>Scenario 2</b>: unupgraded LMG vs. 3-carapace Fade (200/150; 60% absorption, 30% damage negation). LMG does <b>7</b> damage per bullet = 2.8/2.1 damage to H/A. Health and armor run out simultaneously; the Fade dies in <b>72</b> bullets (72 x 2.8/2.1 = 202/151).
*Numbers are approximate and cannot be entirely accurate due to rounding. Field tests suggest the actual number required to kill a 3-carapace fade is 80 bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Redundancy is cool.
Still, you summed up my entire post using less words, increasing the chances of it being noticed. But Terminataur tested the number of LMG bullets to take down a Fade. He emptied a clip into me, reloaded, and then fired one at a time until I went down. According to his HUD, it took exactly 72 LMG bullets to take down a Fade with level three carapace, not 80. This is still nearly two and a half times the number of LMG shots to take down an unupgraded Fade, 29.
-Ryan!
I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed.
-- James Thurber
Did you read this thread?
Quoting directly from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=11777&st=90' target='_blank'>page 7</a> of THIS THREAD....
Hmm. I brought up the titles.txt for NS, which contains the tool tips.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TechNodeHelp_101
{
Increases amount of armor. Each level of carapace absorbs 20% more damage.
}<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is what came up. It only says that each level of carapace <b>absorbs</b> 20% more damage, not negates.
-Ryan!
Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it.
-- Dan Quayle
ABSORBS ICE DAMAGE YOU GAIN HEALTH
so stop complaining before we start gaining health<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, apparently, you don't understand how armor absorbtion works in Half-life. Or you haven't yet noticed that Half-life isn't an RPG.
First, you take the total amount of damage. Then take the percentage absorbed my armor, half it, and apply it to the armor. Take the remaining damage not absorbed by the armor, and apply it directly to the health. Voila.
If armor absorbtion is supposed to work as NEGATION, then why doesn't it work that way for, say, marine's Heavy Armor? That has 95% absorbtion. Why doesn't it work that way for a skulk with no carapace? They have 30% absorbtion, and NOTHING is negated.
If I haven't explained how this works well, enough, then this is my own fault. But please, don't start posting things like this without even attempting to understand the issue at hand. Read the thread. If you are confused, ask to clear things up. But don't assume Half-life is some kind of MMORPG.
-Ryan!
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with.
-- Tenessee Williams
So without carapace according to your idea alien armor would be useless?
skulks 10 armor 0 carapace=0% transferred to armor
which means that armor is useless without carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, someone hasn't read <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>the manual</a> yet. As you should know, there are changes in the game that have not yet reflected in the tooltips. For example, turrets do not need a turret factory to function is a tool tip for the turrets. Hold walk to climb on walls is a tool tip for the skulk. And adds 20% absorb for carapace per level was a tooltip for carapace, which was changed to 10%. I was merely quoting it, because you attempted to quote it in saying that the tooltip negated damaged. And, good sir, you were sorely wrong. It said, and I quoted, ABSORBED. So, please don't quote something to use in an argument when it is wrong.
"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."
-- Bernard Baruch
Wise words.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->skulks 10 armor 0 carapace=0% transferred to armor
which means that armor is useless without carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_evolutions_carapace.html' target='_blank'>See for yourself.</a> A skulk with level 0 carapace has 30% absorbtion. Again, please do not post on something you do not understand. Make some attempt to understand the issue before talking as an authoritative figure on it. If you do not understand, ask for help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->use common sense
MMORPGS have nothing to do with RPGS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well. I apologize. MMORPGs are not the same thing as RPGs. But in my experience, so many people play MMORPGs that many consider it interchangeable with RPGs. And for certain parts, for example the damage system for different attacks, the words are interchangeable. So yes, I agree that MMORPGs are not the same thing as RPGs, but I don't presume to say that they have nothing to do with each other. In certain scenarios, they are very similar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-i will pay you to not have children<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have tried very hard to stay civil. But it is becoming harder to do so.
If you have to resort to petty insults rather than actually arguing a point, it only reflects the fact that your argument stands on shaky legs.
Now, I could make a sny comment about how I'm sorrowed that Darwin's natural selection has yet to weed your genes out of the pool, but I'm going to try and stay civil.
Now, please make some attempt to understand how the NS armor system works before commenting again. If you have any questions, post them here, and we will attempt to answer them as soon as is possible.
-Ryan!
I think Superman should go on the Larry King show and announce that he would come back to life if people in all 50 states wanted him to.
-- Dave Barry
If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
-- Art Hoppe
All Credit goes to Terminotaur, nice chart coil, really pretty, but all the wonderful information has already been said, thanks though, having it told back again and adding another page to the thread count is just <sarcasm> <i>awesome</i> </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*grumble*
if you read the first sentence of coils discertation, he states and i quote,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The goal of this experiment was to verify precisely the so-called "armor bug" in Natural Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he just verified the statement with concrete numbers which will help pinpoint and deal with the problem.
Yes, but Terminataur and I had the same numbers on the previous page (even testing different weapons as well as different sub-species). If coil were trying to take it as his own idea, then he would have started an entirely new thread, not add to Terminataur's thread. I think it's great that he verified it himself and shared the results, but he fought Terminataur a bit on this point, and then, when making a complete turnaround, didn't give credit where credit was due.
But this is splitting ends. Ladies and gentleman, we can and have verified there is damage negation. Now, this either needs to be brought to the attention of the developers, or the development team needs to come tell us that this was intentional.
-Ryan!
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
-- A. H. Weiler
Based on Coil's testing, the numbers are:
Carapace 0, no Armor : 100% damage taken.
Carapace 0, full Armor : 65% damage taken to Health, 30% damage taken to Armor. (95% total)
Carapace 1, no Armor : 90% damage taken.
Carapace 1, full Armor : 50% damage taken to Health, 36% damage taken to Armor (86% total)
Carapace 2, no Armor : 80% damage taken.
Carapace 2, full Armor : 40% damage taken to Health, 40% damage taken to Armor (80% total)
Carapace 3, no Armor : 70% damage taken.
Carapace 3, full Armor : 25% damage taken to Health, 44% damage taken to Armor (67% total)
At first glance, these numbers seemed to be wholly without rhyme or reason. The damage taken by a no-Armor skulk seems rather reasonable, but the damage taken by a full Armor gorge are just weird. Instead of getting a 0/10/20/30% damage reduction, the Gorge seems to enjoy a 5/14/20/33% damage reduction. Try finding a pattern in those numbers. I sure can't.
That said, the damage done against Armor is precisely explainable if it is assumed that the absorption values and negation values are precisely what has been postulated; that is, 30/40/50/60 absorb and 0/10/20/30 negate:
Carapace 0 : Caculated 3 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 3 average damage to Armor per hit.
Carapace 1 : Calculated 3.6 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 3.6 average damage to Armor per hit.
Carapace 2 : Calculated 4 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 4 average damage to Armor per hit.
Carapace 3 : Calculated 4.2 damage to Armor per hit. Measured 4.2 average damage to Armor per hit.
However, the damage done to health is perplexing (Assuming that absorption works the way it should, with 0/10/20/30% damage negation)
Carapace 0 : Calculated 14 damage to Health per hit. Measured 13 damage to Health per hit.
Carapace 1 : Calculated 10.8 damage to Health per hit. Measured 10 damage to Health per hit.
Carapace 2 : Calculated 8 damage to Health per hit. Measured 8 damage to Health per hit.
Carapace 3 : Calculated 5.6 damage to Health per hit. Measured 5 damage to Health per hit.
Although these numbers seem pretty close at first, a few things are mathematically disturbing. The first thing you will notice is that, while damage to Armor varied from shot to shot (suggesting that Armor values are kept at higher than integer precision), damage to Health is exactly the same on every shot. (suggesting that health suffers from rounding errors) Yet, the progression of damage to health with carapace level is bizzarre. At carapace level 0, calculated damage is 14 but measured damage is 13. Yet, at carapace level 2, calculated damage is 8 and real damage is 8. Any rounding error that would round 14 down to 13 should round 8 down to 7. This continues to puzzle me.
I am also absolutely puzzled as to how a 0/10/20/30% reduction in damage could be introduced into the game unintentionally. If the damage reduction was closer to 15%/20%/25%/30%, it would be an obvious bug in the way absorption to Armor is calculated. However, 0/10/20/30 is just weird. Because the bug doesn't seem to do anything without carapace upgrades, it is probably a bug in the way upgrades are handled. The only thing that I can think up of is this:
damage handling code (no upgrades):
30% damage is dealt to Armor.
Remaining damage goes to Health.
Damage handling (3 upgrades):
30% damage is absorbed by upgrades.
30+30% (60%) of <b>remaining</b> damage is done to Armor.
Remaining damage goes to Health.
Probably what happened is that originally, the coders wanted Armor upgrades to simply increase absorption by 10/20/30%. Sometime later they realized that simply increasing absorption on small numerical amounts of armor caused Armor to deplete much faster than Health (rendering armor upgrades relatively useless), so they decided that instead of making armor absorb 60%, it should absorb only 30%, and negate the 30% from upgrades. A mistake in the way this is implemented would lead to something like what we observe.
However, this still leaves me puzzled as to how the damage-to-health gets rounded. No matter how buggy, the Gorge ought to take 14 damage from the Pistol bullet with no Carapace upgrades, yet testing <b>consistently</b> shows that he takes 13 damage. In addition, although this is just anecdotal, I've experienced being a Carapace upgraded Fade and having my Armor die <b>long</b> before my Health. According to every equation we have, a Carapace upgraded Fade should have his health and armor die at precisely the same time. Maybe there's multiple hidden rounding errors somewhere in the damage pipeline, though I fail to see how this can be.
Kudos to everyone who has worked on the Carapace bug. Now we know why Carapace fades are so hard to kill, while Regen fades are easy meat. IMHO, now that its nature is known, this bug should be fixed. Although one could say that it balances out the Kharaa's toughness, what it really does is makes the Kharaa really crappy without Carapace. Any Kharaa strain will see, at a very minimum, a 60% increase in his lifespan when getting carapace upgrade, and most strains get 2x or more. I would much rather see unbugged Aliens with a greater increase in armor per upgrade, much like how the Marines work - a level 3 upgraded marine has 110 armor compared to 50 armor without upgrades; in contrast, no Alien gets any reasonably-sized armor increase; their improved toughness is completely due to the Carapace bugginess.
At least someone can admit making a mistake here. A couple of pages back, Boddo, I actually brought your post up, pointing out that you may have gotten the 30% from the 60% absorb being halved. Stupid for making that assumption? Not at all. You comprehend the issue very well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Based on Coil's testing...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what of Terminataur's testing? He verified this two weeks ago. I, doubting it myself, tested with him two days ago and gave the results. We had tested it on every alien and every weapon except the HMG, and decided to state what is occuring, a 30% negation. So we gave the results for one alien and one weapon, as more would be redundant. Again, I encouraged everyone to test this themselves.
The easiest way to test the bug is to have the marine drain the armor completely, then allow the alien to restore HP to full, but with 0 armor. Then attack. Because there is no odd armor absorbtion to work in, it is easier to verify. But even with armor there, the negation can be predicted and verified, because of the decimal math that goes on behind the scenes. The gorge's damage reduction is indeed 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%.
And I'm not sure what my original intention was when replying to this, other than to say that I really respect someone who can make a statement, and then when evidence points to the contrary, is able to step foward and admit to making a mistake. There are respected scientists and theologians who sometimes cannot do that.
So thank you.
-Ryan!
She had an unequalled gift... of squeezing big mistakes into small opportunities.
-- Henry James
I'm not exactly familiar with how Halflife handles armor, or with what Flayra has done to code the upgrades so I can't be sure, but it's something to think about.