<!--QuoteBegin--TikiTorchBob+Nov 20 2002, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TikiTorchBob @ Nov 20 2002, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It wasn't technically a weapon bind? I can accomplish the exact same thing using last inv as with specific weapon scripts. It's a moot point, **obscenity**. I realize that is your opinion, but it's retarted to call people lamers simply because you don't believe in scripting. If you don't want to argue over it, why bring it up? Just keep your mouth shut(metaphorically speaking).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because HL was my favorite game before the jumping-bean-tau-nade-missile launching chumps surfaced and made people think weapon binds and switch scripts were a good thing...
YES not all scripts are bad, but nuclear power isnt bad ither, and we all know where that went.
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Nov 20 2002, 11:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Nov 20 2002, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->YES not all scripts are bad, but nuclear power isnt bad ither, and we all know where that went.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> omg somebody call 911 !!!!
I think scripting is perfectly legal, partially because I'm a scripter, and partially because it's not all that powerful. It's not like you can write a headshot script, or a wallhack script. Those are WAY outside scripting's range. Heck, you can't even do a proper delay (any delay prevents keypresses until it's over). Scripting is not "cheating" because it's done from within the engine, with commands put there intentionally by the programmers. IF they wanted to get rid of scripting, it's really easy to do: remove the commands "exec" and "alias". Boom. Scripting, for all intents and purposes, goes down the drain. Why didn't they do that? Because it's *part of the game*. If scripts cost money, or were hard to make, I'd say that they gave an unfair advantage. But due to the fact that one can learn to script pretty well in about an hour, and can download a script in about three seconds, I think that they are perfectly legitimate and should be used.
-Rabid, who made his own commander script, Q-switch script, building script...
It has nothing to do with being defensive. It has everything to do with not letting falacies progress. Sure, you are entitled to your opinions, but when the actual game and the actions of the developers of the game (you know, those who are in the position to decide what should be in the game) say one thing, and then you say another, the facts are not on your side.
And if you cannot handle someone disagreeing with you then do not post, because I will defend my position on any subject until the day I die. I have no problems with using most scripts, but that does not mean I use them. I actually use very few scripts because I can do just about anything a script can do for me. The only script I use for NS is a commander script that makes it easier to command, improving the RTS type feel to commanding.
I think the reason people don't like scripts is because they the slightest little script actually gives people an advantage. Which they really don't it just makes things a little easier for people. Lots of people think scripts can actually change game properties, which is to me complete blasphemy to whoever coded the mod in the first place. If a script could change properties, well I'm gonna go make a script so that I have invinciblity/invisibility/noclip/unlimittedammo/and a jetpacked onos. All at once so eat that! It will be my 1337 script and you will all ph34r me! PH34R!
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Nov 22 2002, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Nov 22 2002, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripting is cheating because I don't know how to do it!
Oh my........
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehe, the funny thing is that this is a few people's actual stance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, if the NS team is anti-script, they need to step up the security. I just played a match that was extremely lame. I don't remeber the map name, but the marines tooka hive where there are only like two entrances, one of them being an extremely long vent that is completely red. One marine crouched at the end of the vent (exploiting the hitbox bug) and used a script that unloaded an entire pistol clip in less than a second. Instant 300 damage. We didn't have a chance. We tried lerk but they just spammed grenades. Scripts don't ruin games? I'd have to disagree.
Pistol speed was capped with beta release, you can't exceed 6 rds/sec, with or without a script. Please stop blaming your inadequacies on concepts you simply don't understand. Thx.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not have had any problems with scripting/binding/aliases if it was included in the game from day 1, but when HL came out after the betas (which my clan mates participated it) there were no options to do any of that, especially in the games GUI. The first time Weapon Binds appeared was when Opp Force updated. AFTER scripts were made popular by quake addicts in CS. If you feel its fair use it, these are my opinions, as is everything people post in forums, dont get all defensive, it only proves that you are uncomfortable with what you are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It <i>was</i> included from day 1, or even way <b>before</b> day one if you want to get technical: Scripting really only relies on two things: edittable config files, and access to the console. Both were available since Half-Life came out, and actually comes from the Quake engine on which the Half-Life engine is based. HL did <i>not</i> have betas, and even if you're referring to CS scipting was still an option since day one there too. Weapon binds were available since Day one; why do you think weapon_9mm even exists as a command, if what you say is true? Scripts existed <i>long</i> before Half-Life even came out; they originated (to the best of my knowledge) in Quake1.
Back in the days of QTF, users had to download or create <i>everything</i> themselves; there were no defaults. This created a lot of use of scripts, colored models, and so on, which was no problem; everyone had equal access to it, and equal knowledge since you had to know something to even play. Then later games came around, including Half-life, and made it extremely easy to start out by giving players defaults. This gave birth to the unbelievably silly argument that using nondefault scripts, models, etc is cheating. I have yet to hear any sort of <i>real</i> defense of this position; it's always backed by a simple "you have it and I don't know how" position.
Please do not post unless you actually <i>know</i> what you're talking about. We're not getting defensive, we're just correcting your gross errors. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--LTT+Nov 22 2002, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LTT @ Nov 22 2002, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ummm, he admitted to doing it and I specced him. There is obviously a work around. Think before you flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "The pistol has been protected precisely because of such scripts; one of the playtesters had a script that would fire a pistol faster than an HMG - imagine having a 10-bullet HMG from the very start of the game!!! It was instant death to any skulk. You have to manually click for each bullet fired." - Coil (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12450&hl=pistol+speed' target='_blank'>click here for the thread</a>)
LTT: you are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--Acheron+Nov 22 2002, 07:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acheron @ Nov 22 2002, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The pistol has been protected precisely because of such scripts; one of the playtesters had a script that would fire a pistol faster than an HMG - imagine having a 10-bullet HMG from the very start of the game!!! It was instant death to any skulk. You have to manually click for each bullet fired." - Coil (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12450&hl=pistol+speed' target='_blank'>click here for the thread</a>)
LTT: you are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whether he's wrong or not does not matter. It is not the fault of scripting if such an exploit exists. Its really no one's fault, its just something that should be fixed IF it exists. Saying scripting is bad because of such a thing is just rediculous though. No reasoning behind it at all. It's like saying lets ban cars because there are accidents.
Scripting is "weak" and acts like a set of training wheels. The logic that "I don't need the script to perform the task, I just choose to use it" is a <i>fallacy</i>. It falls under the same category as <i>"I know I can stop smoking any time I want"</i>. You use a function script for a reason, admit it. If the script was truly benign you wouldn't be using it as it <i>does</i> apparently help you in some form of detail beyond your ability to merely work with the basic keyboard. Am I playing against a player? or merely his script? I have respect for the talent of players, not their scripts.
I call it "finger gymnastics". It’s the dexterity, accuracy and coordination in using a keyboard. Its a skill that comes from playing games like First Person Shooters. Some players are naturally talented and more still, are <i>learned</i> pro's. The ability to manage the keyboard and perform multi-combinations of key presses is talent and those players who are capable of performing them should not have the recognition of their ability blunted or diluted by the presence of "anyone being able to merely script the function automatically". Its like having Pole Vaulting in the Olympics and saying <i>"Well, although some Olympians can, the average one <u>can't</u> exceed this certain height so let's instead use spring loaded poles to ensure everyone can".</i> It's Pole Vaulting, and either you can or you can't. You'd look pretty silly standing out there saying <i>"You see I <b>could</b> use the pole you provided me, but I'd prefer to use this spring loaded one I modified as it's just easier to use."</i>
As for the argument that "scripts can be good and unrelated to actual game play ability" is also a fallacy, one that steers the focus off the topic. The point is not, "Yes some scripts contain functions that are harmless" for YES, that's true. However the POINT is "The scripts that are NOT meant to purely adjust your net_rate or see your ping". Although YOU might not have any use for such a need and would never think of having to bind combinations of action keys together, there are those who feel they need too. Here in, lyes my point. If you need too, that's fine. I won't crusade to have you banished from the realm for it so long as you stop rationalizing it and actually <u>acknowledge</u> your need by calling a spade, <i>a spade</i>.
Perhaps Natural Selection should institute its own version of the "Scarlet Letter" by marking the players who've loaded custom cfg's or called upon additional console commands outside the ones typically found in a basic Config.cfg. At least that way it would all be out on the table and players could judge for themselves about where your personal talent for Natural Selection lyes.
I dunno. I for one would like to be able to do one button attacks with aliens on the fly. It would be way more realistic. I don't think the aliens in the movies paused for a moment to look up a menu to what kind of attack they wanted, then attacked to select it, and then attacked the target. I think it would be somewhat similar to rocket arena back with quake2. I used to set keys around my movement keys to instantly change to all the different weapons in my arsenal. Similarly, the different buttons would be set to different alien attacks to instanly use them. It would fit better with the "instict" theme of the aliens. Hell, I just wish the previous weapon key thing worked properly, but it doesn't. The instant keypress attack thing can be just as harmful as well as helpful to aliens. Aliens only have so much power to use at any time. A guy who just mashes a key for certain attacks will only use up their energy that much faster.
I would also love to see a subattack option for the marines too. A big kick attack that can be used at any time even while firing just like back in duke3d. when weapon upgrades are available, give the marines a boot upgrade too like put a blade or electrical charge in it too heheheh.
An honest request, to keep this interesting: I challenge anyone to find a script for NS that is both directly harmful, and does not take advantage of a bug or exploit. I.E. something like the pistol-HMG script that was fixed long ago (not, however, harmful like fast weapon switching, which is debateable in its harm. Something direct). You don't even need to supply an actual script, just an idea of something that could be scripted that would be harmful. I for one can't think of anything. (hmm, now that I wrote that, I realize that posting something like that could be bad. Oh well, I'm not gonna delete it, I'm too lazy and it's too late at night <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Since scripting (the automation of features that could be controlled manually by the player) is <i>obviously</i> a substitute for pure, virginal skill, let's eliminate all instances of it:
- Instead of pressing a button to reload, you should have to hit a button to bring your gun to the "reload position", and then manually click and drag all the components of the gun to perform a proper reload. This should take at least six movements.
- Instead of the commands "+forward", "+back", "+moveleft", and "+moveright", let's implement eight new buttons for the movements of individual legs. The buttons would move an individual leg right, left, forwards, or backwards. This, of course, would take the "training wheels" we so despise away from those newbs who just hit a button to walk around. For shame!
- Instead of hitting the "use" key to construct buildings, players should have to assemble the components themselves! This will let the true skills and "finger gymnastics" of gamers be recognized and praised for what they are. The player will click and drag the little bits of the structure into place, then select his welder and, with a necessary precision, finalize the components in place.
Alleluia! The future is here, and it's <i>grossly overcomplicated</i>. Thanks Spamurai!
Since scripting (the automation of features that could be controlled manually by the player) is <i>obviously</i> a substitute for pure, virginal skill, let's eliminate all instances of it:
- Instead of pressing a button to reload, you should have to hit a button to bring your gun to the "reload position", and then manually click and drag all the components of the gun to perform a proper reload. This should take at least six movements.
- Instead of the commands "+forward", "+back", "+moveleft", and "+moveright", let's implement eight new buttons for the movements of individual legs. The buttons would move an individual leg right, left, forwards, or backwards. This, of course, would take the "training wheels" we so despise away from those newbs who just hit a button to walk around. For shame!
- Instead of hitting your "use" key to construct buildings, players should have to assemble the components themselves! This will let the true skills and "finger gymnastics" of gamers be recognized and praised for what they are. The player will click and drag the little bits of the structure into place, then select his welder and, with a necessary precision, finalize the components in place.
Alleluia! The future is here, and it's <i>grossly overcomplicated</i>. Thanks Spamurai!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a debate, sarcasm is the first defense of the "unarmed".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the script was truly benign you wouldn't be using it as it does apparently help you in some form of detail beyond your ability to merely work with the basic keyboard. Am I playing against a player? or merely his script? I have respect for the talent of players, not their scripts.
As for the argument that "scripts can be good and unrelated to actual game play ability" is also a fallacy, one that steers the focus off the topic. The point is not, "Yes some scripts contain functions that are harmless" for YES, that's true. However the POINT is "The scripts that are NOT meant to purely adjust your net_rate or see your ping". Although YOU might not have any use for such a need and would never think of having to bind combinations of action keys together, there are those who feel they need too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, please do not talk about things which you have no knowedge of. You obviously have no knowledge of scripting. Scripts do not exist that play the game <i>for</i> you. Scripts do not exist that make things so much blatantly easier as to actually validate your analogy. They are merely <i>timesavers.</i> Here's a couple examples:
I could easily put together a script for gorge, for example, that would switch to spit (weapon #1) and begin attacking as long as I held the button, and stop attacking and return to my previous weapon. What this does is allow me to attack marines with spit using a single button rather than selecting the weapon I want and then attacking. Could I do this without a script? Absolutely. Could I do this without a script just as quickly? Of course. All it is is a simple keypress that makes my life a little easier; nothing more.
Another little script I actually do use for gorge is a key that I simply press once to start building (+use) and press again to stop. Saves a lot of finger cramps and so on. I eagerly await the day that somebody can explain to me how this is in any way cheating, <i>without</i> causing me to burst into mocking laughter. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is not possible to create a script that in any way plays the game <i>for</i> you, or enhances your abilities in any meaningful way. You cannot create aimbots or the like through scripting, which is what I suspect you think is going on. Please learn about your subject before you open your mouth. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
for freaks sake just buy a **obscenity** new keyboard./. 10 for el cheapo 30 for the supreme, go mow a yard or something for christ sake. TR <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If scripts are bad obviously depends on the kind of script. Some simple automation tasks aren't cheats, IMHO. But you can also use them to toggle things. A FPS counter for example. Or the drawing of a weapon model. (needs a toggle, because you don't want to be without it permanently, the weapon model is way more than just the weapon, it includes the map, waypoints, hivesight - perhaps a good idea for those who think hivesight is annoying).
Paladyne said it all. From his name I can assume he plays TFC like I do, and it is probably one of the most heavily scripted communities out there.
Some scripts that are used that are completely harmless: <ul> <li>Spy Script <li>Quick Switch <li>Engineer Build Script <li>Server Rcon Script <li>Reload Scripts <li>Nade Tap Scripts <li>DetPack Set Scripts </ul>
There are actually more, but I just woke up and cant think of any more atm.
Scripts do not easily replace skill. There are only a couple that I know of (at least for TFC) that could be considered to replace skill (e.g. rocket jump scripts), but the vast majority are just timesavers and very benign. To say that scripting is a set of training wheels is really an exageration you have tried to shove down people's throats. The idea that someone who does not know how to perform certain skills would have scripts is somewhat absurd. There are (questionable) rocket jump scripts in TFC, but I would like you to find one player who uses a variation of them and cannot rocketjump without the script. You would not be able to. Any new guy can learn to RJ in a matter of minutes, and over time would be able to refine and master the technique.
You're never playing against scripts... you're always playing against the player, for it is the player who must decide how to use the "weapons" in his "arsenol". The vast majority of scripts are tools. There to make certain things easier.
Get off your self-induced high horse. If you have to question whether someone is playing with scripts or not then you need to improve your skills. I've never once worried about whether someone is using scripts or not. Its a mute point. If they do not have skill to back those scripts up... then I'll pwn them easily.
Its funny how someone posts an opinion on a sensitive subject and it is construed as "shoving it down your throat" for those who do not support it. When I posted, I knew the words I typed would touch directly at the heart and induce a fire compelling certain types to respond in the manors presented here and now. Quite hostile and defensive on a touchy subject. Yet all I did was add my own colorful weight of opinion in support of Flayra's decisions to reduce the freedom of Scripting in favor of physical Player-Vrs-Player skill.
However, lets set some misconceptions and misdirected assumptions aside. Paladynes "assumption" of my knowledge of HL's console (or lack thereof) is incorrect. I actually have a very good understanding and knowledge of working with HL's console. I know what can and can not be done. I am also able distinguish between a true "Cheat", "Hack" and "Exploit" from a simple script. You are not a cheater if you can't work your keyboard and seem in need of some scripted assistance. Also, I have lived, played and throughly enjoy being in a community that is the most script functional of any game I've known. No Othell, it is not TFC or anything HL at all. It is Tribes and if you haven’t been around this game then you have no idea because HL's console pales in comparison. I've played along side some the best people to play Tribes with and they are the reason I enjoyed Tribes 1 Competition as much as I did. Most of whom I knew to be running all kinds of scripts, but I still sought after and was thankful for being able to enjoy the game alongside them. Perhaps it is hard for you to grasp this, but I honestly hold no malice towards any of you who acknowledge using scripts of whatever type, though I don't know if many of you would shake Spamurai's hand after a GG because of this thread now.
I'm sorry if some of you take offence to the idea of a "handicap" in needing to bind several actions to trigger automatically at a single keypress rather then pressing keys individually. However, lets get something straight, I never stated or meant to imply that one could press a button "and the game would play itself" as several of you seem to infer. Yet, I do consider it one of the skills of being a good gamer in being able to manage your controller, in this case the keyboard. Some of you seem to be unable to grasp this concept which is making my point muddled in communication. The term "Training Wheels" may have been harsh and somewhat inaccurate, but the point was that "Your Hand Cramps Up" because you can't push the buttons as fast as you'd like too sometimes. This risk of "fumbling" the keyboard by accidently mistiming or mispressing a button in a sequence of an awkward moment is the "physical" element in Player-Vrs-Player of being able to execute as much as the "Mental" of wanting to execute. While you stress that you are not using scripts to do anything impossible when done manually, you seem to miss the point that you are scripting a function to avoid any possibility of failing to perform it on demand. In your efforts to champion the cause for scripting by demonizing the over complexity of things some of you overlook the physical ability of being able to skillfully bound from wall to wall with leap, switch to the bitegun and attack before returning to Leap and successfully retreating as a physical skill (more so then simply just wanting to do so). If you are unable to perform the "gymnastics" of pressing all the needed buttons in sequence like some players can, you shouldn't be surprised if some players will not honor you for using a script to do it in the same way they regard those who have the physical talent. That goes for an action of any type, even if it doesn’t appear as "dangerous" as a leaping Skulk. Some of you seem fit to "exaggerate" this simple thought into the desire for clearly silly and unintended will to have to "push 3 buttons to fire the gun" or "hand type all the actions manually into the console". I assure you, this is not the case.
If you think or want to use a script, that's your call, but don't go placing me on the imaginary "High Horse" because I won't mail you a Certificate of Achievement for something you use a script to do. Trust me, Scripts and players who insist on using them do not dictate my "fun" in this, or any game. So whether or not I play against an "Othell" or "Paladyne" using Scripts in Natural Selection or the scriptless "Chronic Warrior's" of Tribes 1, I'll still ensure I'm having fun or else I'll be certain to find a new game. However, my point this stands, there is a true reason for the use of a script and that reason should be acknowledged for what it is.
JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST THIS IS RIDICULOUS! Are you that dense and contemptuous that you must condemn any and all forms of a shortcut, even when it bypasses an unescessary function?
Consider this analogy: Many people found the original xbox controller to be ungainely. Namely, it was too big, and some of the buttons were hard to reach easily, specifically the white and black buttons. Controller manufacturers released alternate controllers for the xbox. Some were smaller, the buttons were easier to reach, and they were generally easier to use. Neither microsoft nor game developers had a problem with easier-to-use controllers.
Now, say someone with the clumsy controller was to play against someone with an easy to use controller. The person with the clumsy controller isn't able to perform certain techniques as easily or quickly as the person with the easy to use controller.
So what's the Spamuri solution to this problem? Would you:
A: Outlaw any controller other than the original, and force people to play with a stupid controller. B: Automatically identify any people using "illegitimate" controllers and segregate them from people using "legitimate" controllers or C: BE REASONABLE and let people use whatever controller they want.
Now, I don't see any difference between this analogy, and what you're saying. Sure, I could have a frequently used function mapped to the opposite side of the keyboard, but should I have to? If I want a function to be easily accesible, do I have an unfair advantage over people that use stupid control schemes?
And as for you greypaws (this also applies to you spamuri), and your statement that hud_fastswitch is illegitamate...wow...simply amazing, I hope for societies sake that they keep you locked up tightly in that insane asylum that you're in. Think about it for a second, what was the reason valve even had those slots to begin with? Because in the original halflife there were multiple weapons in each slot. Would valve have put in a slot system if there was only 1 weapon in each slot, like NS, CS, TFC and many other mods? OF COURSE NOT, it would be simply RETARDED. Why should you be forced to press two buttons when only ONE function is being performed?
Also Spamuri, I find it very ironic that you bring up the subject of the scarlet letter. In the scarlet letter, Hester Pryne was unjustly condemned and punished for an act that wasn't wrong in the first place. You want to do the same thing for people who like a convienent control scheme.
And you can't say that you're indifferent and merely showing your opinion while at the same time condemning those who are arguing against you as being defensive and having a guilty conscience.
If irony is the first defense of the weak, then morality is the first offense of the ignorant.
The point of scripts is the same as any other tool. Its to make life easier. Plain and simple.
Now there are exploits than can be done with scripts unfortunately. Just ask Eric at Valve what's the newest scripting exploit and he'll tell you to go ask the TFC community. After the last CPL event a new exploit was shown to him and he made a comment along the lines of "Why does the TFC community always have to find these exploits?" The simple reason is because we like things to be easier. We use scripts because they tend to speed up game play. Making it more enjoyable all around, but they do not in any way shape form or fashion detract from gameplay. Except maybe those up on their high horses who consider themselves too "pure" to use scripts.
Spamurai, you bring in a game who's scripting capabilites supposedly outperforms that of the HL engine. Why? We're not talking about Tribes here. If it is able to handle scripting better than HL and your opinions on scripts are based on the scripting in Tribes then it really has no place here. The scripting that is able to be done by HL is very simplistic. It can get complex, but only in relation to the HL engine, but in reality, compared to other forms of programming it is of a very simplistic nature.
I'm amazed that every time I attempt to defend scripting that the first part of every retort is something to the regards of "Wow! Don't get too defensive!" or "Steady now. Don't get hostile for me expressing my opinions." Please. That's such a stupid thing to say... not to mention hypocritical. You openly attack something that I support and do not expect a defense that is more than half hearted? If you do not want a firey response to your posts then cease posting your opinions and start posting facts. Until then any offense that you hear in these posts may be there, but it could just as easily be your expectation of such types of posts that gives you a preconceived tone of them.
So let me say it again... Scripts are tools. They exist to make life easier. Nothing more. Nothing less. If a player's skill was not there, then no matter how many script (s)he has, (s)he will still get pwned by someone more skillfull, whether that person has scripts or not.
Well, to all the nay-sayers, I wrote a simple alias and bind that accomplishes what I claimed in about five minutes. If a developer wants a copy of it, email me as I don't access these boards much. I'm not posting it due to the llamas that would use it, I just want things like this fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin--mndeg+Nov 25 2002, 01:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mndeg @ Nov 25 2002, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you find it hard to press 3 then 1?ouch, stick to consoles<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You find it NECESSARY to press 3 then 1, instead of just having to press 3? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, I'd love to have a script like coil described. 1 button for each attack would be very nice. I've tried making a script to do this but it never works completely right (ie: it doesn't work if you hold the button down, the first time you press the button it only switches but doesn't attack, etc.)
Comments
Because HL was my favorite game before the jumping-bean-tau-nade-missile launching chumps surfaced and made people think weapon binds and switch scripts were a good thing...
YES not all scripts are bad, but nuclear power isnt bad ither, and we all know where that went.
omg somebody call 911 !!!!
IF they wanted to get rid of scripting, it's really easy to do: remove the commands "exec" and "alias". Boom. Scripting, for all intents and purposes, goes down the drain. Why didn't they do that? Because it's *part of the game*.
If scripts cost money, or were hard to make, I'd say that they gave an unfair advantage. But due to the fact that one can learn to script pretty well in about an hour, and can download a script in about three seconds, I think that they are perfectly legitimate and should be used.
-Rabid, who made his own commander script, Q-switch script, building script...
And if you cannot handle someone disagreeing with you then do not post, because I will defend my position on any subject until the day I die. I have no problems with using most scripts, but that does not mean I use them. I actually use very few scripts because I can do just about anything a script can do for me. The only script I use for NS is a commander script that makes it easier to command, improving the RTS type feel to commanding.
Anyways...
.... I like waffles.
I think the reason people don't like scripts is because they the slightest little script actually gives people an advantage. Which they really don't it just makes things a little easier for people. Lots of people think scripts can actually change game properties, which is to me complete blasphemy to whoever coded the mod in the first place. If a script could change properties, well I'm gonna go make a script so that I have invinciblity/invisibility/noclip/unlimittedammo/and a jetpacked onos. All at once so eat that! It will be my 1337 script and you will all ph34r me! PH34R!
oh.. and I like waffles too.
Oh my........
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh my........
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, the funny thing is that this is a few people's actual stance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It <i>was</i> included from day 1, or even way <b>before</b> day one if you want to get technical: Scripting really only relies on two things: edittable config files, and access to the console. Both were available since Half-Life came out, and actually comes from the Quake engine on which the Half-Life engine is based. HL did <i>not</i> have betas, and even if you're referring to CS scipting was still an option since day one there too. Weapon binds were available since Day one; why do you think weapon_9mm even exists as a command, if what you say is true? Scripts existed <i>long</i> before Half-Life even came out; they originated (to the best of my knowledge) in Quake1.
Back in the days of QTF, users had to download or create <i>everything</i> themselves; there were no defaults. This created a lot of use of scripts, colored models, and so on, which was no problem; everyone had equal access to it, and equal knowledge since you had to know something to even play. Then later games came around, including Half-life, and made it extremely easy to start out by giving players defaults. This gave birth to the unbelievably silly argument that using nondefault scripts, models, etc is cheating. I have yet to hear any sort of <i>real</i> defense of this position; it's always backed by a simple "you have it and I don't know how" position.
Please do not post unless you actually <i>know</i> what you're talking about. We're not getting defensive, we're just correcting your gross errors. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
"The pistol has been protected precisely because of such scripts; one of the playtesters had a script that would fire a pistol faster than an HMG - imagine having a 10-bullet HMG from the very start of the game!!! It was instant death to any skulk. You have to manually click for each bullet fired." - Coil (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12450&hl=pistol+speed' target='_blank'>click here for the thread</a>)
LTT: you are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
LTT: you are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether he's wrong or not does not matter. It is not the fault of scripting if such an exploit exists. Its really no one's fault, its just something that should be fixed IF it exists. Saying scripting is bad because of such a thing is just rediculous though. No reasoning behind it at all. It's like saying lets ban cars because there are accidents.
I call it "finger gymnastics". It’s the dexterity, accuracy and coordination in using a keyboard. Its a skill that comes from playing games like First Person Shooters. Some players are naturally talented and more still, are <i>learned</i> pro's. The ability to manage the keyboard and perform multi-combinations of key presses is talent and those players who are capable of performing them should not have the recognition of their ability blunted or diluted by the presence of "anyone being able to merely script the function automatically". Its like having Pole Vaulting in the Olympics and saying <i>"Well, although some Olympians can, the average one <u>can't</u> exceed this certain height so let's instead use spring loaded poles to ensure everyone can".</i> It's Pole Vaulting, and either you can or you can't. You'd look pretty silly standing out there saying <i>"You see I <b>could</b> use the pole you provided me, but I'd prefer to use this spring loaded one I modified as it's just easier to use."</i>
As for the argument that "scripts can be good and unrelated to actual game play ability" is also a fallacy, one that steers the focus off the topic. The point is not, "Yes some scripts contain functions that are harmless" for YES, that's true. However the POINT is "The scripts that are NOT meant to purely adjust your net_rate or see your ping". Although YOU might not have any use for such a need and would never think of having to bind combinations of action keys together, there are those who feel they need too. Here in, lyes my point. If you need too, that's fine. I won't crusade to have you banished from the realm for it so long as you stop rationalizing it and actually <u>acknowledge</u> your need by calling a spade, <i>a spade</i>.
Perhaps Natural Selection should institute its own version of the "Scarlet Letter" by marking the players who've loaded custom cfg's or called upon additional console commands outside the ones typically found in a basic Config.cfg. At least that way it would all be out on the table and players could judge for themselves about where your personal talent for Natural Selection lyes.
Just a thought.
Spamurai.
I would also love to see a subattack option for the marines too. A big kick attack that can be used at any time even while firing just like back in duke3d. when weapon upgrades are available, give the marines a boot upgrade too like put a blade or electrical charge in it too heheheh.
I challenge anyone to find a script for NS that is both directly harmful, and does not take advantage of a bug or exploit. I.E. something like the pistol-HMG script that was fixed long ago (not, however, harmful like fast weapon switching, which is debateable in its harm. Something direct). You don't even need to supply an actual script, just an idea of something that could be scripted that would be harmful. I for one can't think of anything.
(hmm, now that I wrote that, I realize that posting something like that could be bad. Oh well, I'm not gonna delete it, I'm too lazy and it's too late at night <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Since scripting (the automation of features that could be controlled manually by the player) is <i>obviously</i> a substitute for pure, virginal skill, let's eliminate all instances of it:
- Instead of pressing a button to reload, you should have to hit a button to bring your gun to the "reload position", and then manually click and drag all the components of the gun to perform a proper reload. This should take at least six movements.
- Instead of the commands "+forward", "+back", "+moveleft", and "+moveright", let's implement eight new buttons for the movements of individual legs. The buttons would move an individual leg right, left, forwards, or backwards. This, of course, would take the "training wheels" we so despise away from those newbs who just hit a button to walk around. For shame!
- Instead of hitting the "use" key to construct buildings, players should have to assemble the components themselves! This will let the true skills and "finger gymnastics" of gamers be recognized and praised for what they are. The player will click and drag the little bits of the structure into place, then select his welder and, with a necessary precision, finalize the components in place.
Alleluia! The future is here, and it's <i>grossly overcomplicated</i>. Thanks Spamurai!
Since scripting (the automation of features that could be controlled manually by the player) is <i>obviously</i> a substitute for pure, virginal skill, let's eliminate all instances of it:
- Instead of pressing a button to reload, you should have to hit a button to bring your gun to the "reload position", and then manually click and drag all the components of the gun to perform a proper reload. This should take at least six movements.
- Instead of the commands "+forward", "+back", "+moveleft", and "+moveright", let's implement eight new buttons for the movements of individual legs. The buttons would move an individual leg right, left, forwards, or backwards. This, of course, would take the "training wheels" we so despise away from those newbs who just hit a button to walk around. For shame!
- Instead of hitting your "use" key to construct buildings, players should have to assemble the components themselves! This will let the true skills and "finger gymnastics" of gamers be recognized and praised for what they are. The player will click and drag the little bits of the structure into place, then select his welder and, with a necessary precision, finalize the components in place.
Alleluia! The future is here, and it's <i>grossly overcomplicated</i>. Thanks Spamurai!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a debate, sarcasm is the first defense of the "unarmed".
Bind your mousewheel to +attack. Trust me, you can spin that little wheel more than ten clicks a second easy...
And as for 6 motions to reload the gun...go play WW2 Online. Three buttons to fire the gun.
Thanks again, Spamurai!
As for the argument that "scripts can be good and unrelated to actual game play ability" is also a fallacy, one that steers the focus off the topic. The point is not, "Yes some scripts contain functions that are harmless" for YES, that's true. However the POINT is "The scripts that are NOT meant to purely adjust your net_rate or see your ping". Although YOU might not have any use for such a need and would never think of having to bind combinations of action keys together, there are those who feel they need too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, please do not talk about things which you have no knowedge of. You obviously have no knowledge of scripting. Scripts do not exist that play the game <i>for</i> you. Scripts do not exist that make things so much blatantly easier as to actually validate your analogy. They are merely <i>timesavers.</i> Here's a couple examples:
I could easily put together a script for gorge, for example, that would switch to spit (weapon #1) and begin attacking as long as I held the button, and stop attacking and return to my previous weapon. What this does is allow me to attack marines with spit using a single button rather than selecting the weapon I want and then attacking. Could I do this without a script? Absolutely. Could I do this without a script just as quickly? Of course. All it is is a simple keypress that makes my life a little easier; nothing more.
Another little script I actually do use for gorge is a key that I simply press once to start building (+use) and press again to stop. Saves a lot of finger cramps and so on. I eagerly await the day that somebody can explain to me how this is in any way cheating, <i>without</i> causing me to burst into mocking laughter. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is not possible to create a script that in any way plays the game <i>for</i> you, or enhances your abilities in any meaningful way. You cannot create aimbots or the like through scripting, which is what I suspect you think is going on. Please learn about your subject before you open your mouth. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
TR <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some scripts that are used that are completely harmless:
<ul>
<li>Spy Script
<li>Quick Switch
<li>Engineer Build Script
<li>Server Rcon Script
<li>Reload Scripts
<li>Nade Tap Scripts
<li>DetPack Set Scripts
</ul>
There are actually more, but I just woke up and cant think of any more atm.
Scripts do not easily replace skill. There are only a couple that I know of (at least for TFC) that could be considered to replace skill (e.g. rocket jump scripts), but the vast majority are just timesavers and very benign. To say that scripting is a set of training wheels is really an exageration you have tried to shove down people's throats. The idea that someone who does not know how to perform certain skills would have scripts is somewhat absurd. There are (questionable) rocket jump scripts in TFC, but I would like you to find one player who uses a variation of them and cannot rocketjump without the script. You would not be able to. Any new guy can learn to RJ in a matter of minutes, and over time would be able to refine and master the technique.
You're never playing against scripts... you're always playing against the player, for it is the player who must decide how to use the "weapons" in his "arsenol". The vast majority of scripts are tools. There to make certain things easier.
Get off your self-induced high horse. If you have to question whether someone is playing with scripts or not then you need to improve your skills. I've never once worried about whether someone is using scripts or not. Its a mute point. If they do not have skill to back those scripts up... then I'll pwn them easily.
However, lets set some misconceptions and misdirected assumptions aside. Paladynes "assumption" of my knowledge of HL's console (or lack thereof) is incorrect. I actually have a very good understanding and knowledge of working with HL's console. I know what can and can not be done. I am also able distinguish between a true "Cheat", "Hack" and "Exploit" from a simple script. You are not a cheater if you can't work your keyboard and seem in need of some scripted assistance. Also, I have lived, played and throughly enjoy being in a community that is the most script functional of any game I've known. No Othell, it is not TFC or anything HL at all. It is Tribes and if you haven’t been around this game then you have no idea because HL's console pales in comparison. I've played along side some the best people to play Tribes with and they are the reason I enjoyed Tribes 1 Competition as much as I did. Most of whom I knew to be running all kinds of scripts, but I still sought after and was thankful for being able to enjoy the game alongside them. Perhaps it is hard for you to grasp this, but I honestly hold no malice towards any of you who acknowledge using scripts of whatever type, though I don't know if many of you would shake Spamurai's hand after a GG because of this thread now.
I'm sorry if some of you take offence to the idea of a "handicap" in needing to bind several actions to trigger automatically at a single keypress rather then pressing keys individually. However, lets get something straight, I never stated or meant to imply that one could press a button "and the game would play itself" as several of you seem to infer. Yet, I do consider it one of the skills of being a good gamer in being able to manage your controller, in this case the keyboard. Some of you seem to be unable to grasp this concept which is making my point muddled in communication. The term "Training Wheels" may have been harsh and somewhat inaccurate, but the point was that "Your Hand Cramps Up" because you can't push the buttons as fast as you'd like too sometimes. This risk of "fumbling" the keyboard by accidently mistiming or mispressing a button in a sequence of an awkward moment is the "physical" element in Player-Vrs-Player of being able to execute as much as the "Mental" of wanting to execute. While you stress that you are not using scripts to do anything impossible when done manually, you seem to miss the point that you are scripting a function to avoid any possibility of failing to perform it on demand. In your efforts to champion the cause for scripting by demonizing the over complexity of things some of you overlook the physical ability of being able to skillfully bound from wall to wall with leap, switch to the bitegun and attack before returning to Leap and successfully retreating as a physical skill (more so then simply just wanting to do so). If you are unable to perform the "gymnastics" of pressing all the needed buttons in sequence like some players can, you shouldn't be surprised if some players will not honor you for using a script to do it in the same way they regard those who have the physical talent. That goes for an action of any type, even if it doesn’t appear as "dangerous" as a leaping Skulk. Some of you seem fit to "exaggerate" this simple thought into the desire for clearly silly and unintended will to have to "push 3 buttons to fire the gun" or "hand type all the actions manually into the console". I assure you, this is not the case.
If you think or want to use a script, that's your call, but don't go placing me on the imaginary "High Horse" because I won't mail you a Certificate of Achievement for something you use a script to do. Trust me, Scripts and players who insist on using them do not dictate my "fun" in this, or any game. So whether or not I play against an "Othell" or "Paladyne" using Scripts in Natural Selection or the scriptless "Chronic Warrior's" of Tribes 1, I'll still ensure I'm having fun or else I'll be certain to find a new game. However, my point this stands, there is a true reason for the use of a script and that reason should be acknowledged for what it is.
Consider this analogy: Many people found the original xbox controller to be ungainely. Namely, it was too big, and some of the buttons were hard to reach easily, specifically the white and black buttons. Controller manufacturers released alternate controllers for the xbox. Some were smaller, the buttons were easier to reach, and they were generally easier to use. Neither microsoft nor game developers had a problem with easier-to-use controllers.
Now, say someone with the clumsy controller was to play against someone with an easy to use controller. The person with the clumsy controller isn't able to perform certain techniques as easily or quickly as the person with the easy to use controller.
So what's the Spamuri solution to this problem? Would you:
A: Outlaw any controller other than the original, and force people to play with a stupid controller.
B: Automatically identify any people using "illegitimate" controllers and segregate them from people using "legitimate" controllers
or C: BE REASONABLE and let people use whatever controller they want.
Now, I don't see any difference between this analogy, and what you're saying. Sure, I could have a frequently used function mapped to the opposite side of the keyboard, but should I have to? If I want a function to be easily accesible, do I have an unfair advantage over people that use stupid control schemes?
And as for you greypaws (this also applies to you spamuri), and your statement that hud_fastswitch is illegitamate...wow...simply amazing, I hope for societies sake that they keep you locked up tightly in that insane asylum that you're in. Think about it for a second, what was the reason valve even had those slots to begin with? Because in the original halflife there were multiple weapons in each slot. Would valve have put in a slot system if there was only 1 weapon in each slot, like NS, CS, TFC and many other mods? OF COURSE NOT, it would be simply RETARDED. Why should you be forced to press two buttons when only ONE function is being performed?
Also Spamuri, I find it very ironic that you bring up the subject of the scarlet letter. In the scarlet letter, Hester Pryne was unjustly condemned and punished for an act that wasn't wrong in the first place. You want to do the same thing for people who like a convienent control scheme.
And you can't say that you're indifferent and merely showing your opinion while at the same time condemning those who are arguing against you as being defensive and having a guilty conscience.
If irony is the first defense of the weak, then morality is the first offense of the ignorant.
Now there are exploits than can be done with scripts unfortunately. Just ask Eric at Valve what's the newest scripting exploit and he'll tell you to go ask the TFC community. After the last CPL event a new exploit was shown to him and he made a comment along the lines of "Why does the TFC community always have to find these exploits?" The simple reason is because we like things to be easier. We use scripts because they tend to speed up game play. Making it more enjoyable all around, but they do not in any way shape form or fashion detract from gameplay. Except maybe those up on their high horses who consider themselves too "pure" to use scripts.
Spamurai, you bring in a game who's scripting capabilites supposedly outperforms that of the HL engine. Why? We're not talking about Tribes here. If it is able to handle scripting better than HL and your opinions on scripts are based on the scripting in Tribes then it really has no place here. The scripting that is able to be done by HL is very simplistic. It can get complex, but only in relation to the HL engine, but in reality, compared to other forms of programming it is of a very simplistic nature.
I'm amazed that every time I attempt to defend scripting that the first part of every retort is something to the regards of "Wow! Don't get too defensive!" or "Steady now. Don't get hostile for me expressing my opinions." Please. That's such a stupid thing to say... not to mention hypocritical. You openly attack something that I support and do not expect a defense that is more than half hearted? If you do not want a firey response to your posts then cease posting your opinions and start posting facts. Until then any offense that you hear in these posts may be there, but it could just as easily be your expectation of such types of posts that gives you a preconceived tone of them.
So let me say it again... Scripts are tools. They exist to make life easier. Nothing more. Nothing less. If a player's skill was not there, then no matter how many script (s)he has, (s)he will still get pwned by someone more skillfull, whether that person has scripts or not.
You find it NECESSARY to press 3 then 1, instead of just having to press 3? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've tried making a script to do this but it never works completely right (ie: it doesn't work if you hold the button down, the first time you press the button it only switches but doesn't attack, etc.)
Could anyone help me out with this?