I'd like to thank Puzl for his kind words with regard to Tactical Gamer Natural Selection. So... umm... "Thank you, Puzl." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<soapbox> The solution to bad/racist/egotistical attitudes is not the mute function, as new players a) don't have those players muted, and b) might be led to think that NS is a game that can be played without communication.
Real life or the internet, it's got no place. The application and function of respect may be different between the two, but not by much. Anonymity doesn't excuse the behavior; it only means that those who care about others having a positive experience need to be all the more diligent about the maintenance of the communities to which they belong. </soapbox>
<!--quoteo(post=1586286:date=Dec 9 2006, 01:43 PM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Dec 9 2006, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1586286[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> While my actions aren't what we should be looking at here (the point is that these bigotry and racism exists and people will say it irregardless of there being a Jew or a homosexual or an African American player in the server at the time; this hatred runs rampant in the players of NS and I think that is a problem) my point in saying that I'm Jewish to these comments is to tell people to stop talking. Most people do in fact be quiet after I tell them to stop, some even say they're sorry. Many of the people who say these comments (I'm guessing) aren't really anti-semetic, but say them because they heard them elsewhere. I hae a problem with people saying things like "you jew" and "I got jewed" and whatnot. When someone says it, I ask them to stop. In this specific situation, the person was an adament anti-semite, who upon viewing my condump, threw up a vote asking the server if it was alright to burn the Jews. My wonderful condump goes on to reveal that 4 people did in fact vote yes.
Tell me, irregardless of my actions, when a new player comes into this server and sees this, what do you think he thinks? He found a bad server? Or that the game is bad, considering that there really are only 4 American 3.2 servers that people play on? This is the point I'm trying to make. He's going to quit the game because of ######bags, like you suggest. Why is the population of NS dying? There's your answer.
Making sweeping broud generalizations doesn't do anything for you. I'd view that people who cry I GOT JEWED whenever a nub kills them, or HANG THAT BLACK PERSON, or BEAT THE QUEER are in fact the real racists, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. What I say is showing what new person would see, not what the true character of these people are. Yes, words can get competetive juices flowing. Like, "you suck!" or "I'm gonna kick the living ish out of you!". I've played competetively, and we all know how mcuh fun it is to beat arrogant jerkoffs who "have it coming".
But calling people homosexuals, and n-bombs, and Jews does something different. When you say something to someone to try to "get in the competetive spirit", you say it to piss em off, and to make you a "higher being" in your own view. But to call someone one of these names is to imply that it's a bad thing to be it! Saying "you queer" implies that there is a problem with being homosexual, and subtle comments like this can have a lot of effect on one's subconsious; association with homosexuals and insults? Is that good for homosexuals? I can hardly say so. The same goes for someone calling another person an n-bomb, or Jewish. It implies it's a bad thing, and this is more racism than whatever generalization you're trying to make above. Instilling that being African American or Jewish or homosexual is bad in someone's mind creates racists. It sure as hell doesn't get rid of em. I'm getting the strong impression that you didn't read my first post, or some of the following posts. There are a lot of NS players who play NS because they got sick of dealing with the jerkoffs in CS. NS used to provide an alternative to gaming with a-holes. Now though, it doesn't provide an alternative; it's the same dull CS community, and this drives people to not want to play the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand how that could offend you, but very few people who actually say "lol i got jewed lol" are actually racist towards jews. I was there when you said you were a jew and the admins/other players were making jew jokes. You honestly think when the admin put up the vote "should jews be burned" and when 4 people voted yes, they actually mean it? They were just kidding with you, so don't take it too seriously. Don't take anything you hear on the internet too seriously, because a lot of things people say are just tongue-in-cheek satires. Learn to laugh at stuff, even yourself, you know?
<!--quoteo(post=1586320:date=Dec 9 2006, 09:18 PM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Dec 9 2006, 09:18 PM) [snapback]1586320[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My experience has generally been that people will quiet down when asked to stop, even if I'm not an admin. Had his comment first been to burn the jews, I would just replied SUYF, but his fist comment was labeling someone a Jew, which I find that is typically done by people who aren't anti-semetic, just talkative. I guess our experiences differ, so w/e.
Personally I've seen a few new players once or twice, but rarely do I see them again.
That is a good point though about the players not being truly discouraged by one player in one server. And if it were just one server, it wouldn't really be a problem. But it isn't one server or one player; it's multiple players. It's a general attitude that many people hold, and trying to avoid it can become tedious and repetetive. Looking at 3.2, there are really only four American servers that I see populated typically; having a problem in one server is quite a big deal as that's 25% of all available servers for a player to play on (assuming he won't play on Euro servers, and assuming it's an American player). If it were only a select few individuals who did this, it wouldn't be so much a problem. But the whole jerkoff "culture" is in nearly every server, and is very dissuading to new players as to whether or not they want to play. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1586449:date=Dec 9 2006, 09:02 PM:name=Pokerface)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pokerface @ Dec 9 2006, 09:02 PM) [snapback]1586449[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'd like to thank Puzl for his kind words with regard to Tactical Gamer Natural Selection. So... umm... "Thank you, Puzl." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<soapbox> The solution to bad/racist/egotistical attitudes is not the mute function, as new players a) don't have those players muted, and b) might be led to think that NS is a game that can be played without communication.
Real life or the internet, it's got no place. The application and function of respect may be different between the two, but not by much. Anonymity doesn't excuse the behavior; it only means that those who care about others having a positive experience need to be all the more diligent about the maintenance of the communities to which they belong. </soapbox> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that it excuses the behavior, I just said the person on the other end is most likely going to want someone to get offended which is why they say it to begin with. Muting that individual takes away any social attention, negative or otherwise out of the equation, and prevents the individual from hearing further insults of whatever nature from that player. If the racist player does not receive the attention he or she craves, then that player will most likely go elsewhere to get their thrills.
Don't give them the satisfaction by showing them you are offended, just mute them and continue to play your game.
Don't argue with them or try to reason, just ignore them.
Ignoring one or two players that are disrupting the game is hardly an interruption of communication, if anything it will free up the voice comm for more effective means of communication.
Bob, had he followed it up with "I'm just playing" or something to that effect, I guess I could see where you're coming from, but in response to me saying I'm Jewish, he said BURN FATMAN, and then did the vote on burning the Jews. Antisemetic or not, there was no clear intention of joking around. I don't want to get into this issue too much here as it really isn't what this post is aobut; I was using the incident as an example.
And SUYF is apparently the censor of a not-so-nice term meaning be quiet.
Ever thought of that they guy who you claim to be 'jew-hater' (of sorts), most likely didnt even believe that you were a jew. Theres a high propability that he was just messing with you for laughs. Heck even i giggled when i read about the vote you got 'subjected' of.
As for the 'You're not forced to play this game' comment my precious QUAKE NERD gave. What i meant was, i do still care to play this game, cause i like it, but i have no other option than to play on the server i still despise (for many different reason might i add). There just isn't any other choice, therefor i'm <b><i><u>forced</u></i></b> to play on the server in question.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1586290:date=Dec 9 2006, 07:51 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reeke @ Dec 9 2006, 07:51 PM) [snapback]1586290[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Agree 100% with fatman and puzl here.
I've had a few friends put off NS simply because of the general (Unnecessary) elitist attitudes coming from many players. It's as if talking down to other players, what other players think of them, and trying to sound as intelligent as possible (even if they haven’t got a clue) is more important than actually having fun in a game.
Just a quick recent example, on a server I won’t mention, someone started the "get skillz kthx" rant at me because.... i was using spores as a lerk in the end game. Did nothing but rant when i got a kill, even threatened to ban me from the server. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's only natural for a player to react when he sees something he perceives as unfair. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, quite the opposite actually, but you have to look at why he would initiate said behavior. Something is detracting from his fun and he feels he has to do something. Whether or not the response of "whining" is a good one is of course up for debate -- more often than not it will result in the exact opposite of what the "whiner" wants to achieve.
This is partially directed to you, but mostly directed to the ongoing debate in this thread:
All in all there's a distinct lack of thick skin among many people in this community and there's a lot of "oh no my feelings are hurt" going around without it necessarily being justified. Yes there is racism, yes there is poor humor and yes there's a lot of unjust treatment going around. What people need to realize is that what they perceive as "the right thing" isn't necessarily "the right thing" for everyone else and sooner or later you are going to have to put up with things you disagree with. In addition, all person to person communication is inherently flawed and the Internet makes it worse as all communication is without the facial mimic and body language that usually helps us understand and put statements into context. What you interpret as the meaning of something, is very often flawed, or even completely incorrect. Something you perceive as offensive will in many cases not be intended to be offensive.
This is a bit of a ramble but what I'm trying to say is this: A. Lighten up, don't take everything to heart -- learn to ignore some of the things you don't like. B. Try to see things from the opposite perspective and try to realize that everyone doesn't go by the same rules -- which that's a good thing.
In many ways the Internet is the last vestige of true freedom in the world and multiplayer games is part of that freedom.
Edit: Wow this is a jumble, sorry. Hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say.
<!--quoteo(post=1586456:date=Dec 10 2006, 02:43 AM:name=Exploder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Exploder @ Dec 10 2006, 02:43 AM) [snapback]1586456[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What's SUYF, if you would be so kind to answer? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It means Shut Up Your Face, but sometimes it has been attributed to "Shut Up your Cigarette" (in UK slang)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS Becoming More and More, Like Team Fortress Classic? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting replies here and some of them have been pretty much what I have thought (kudos to Fatman), so I thought to say my piece before going to back to other stuff.
I first joined Natural Selection when v1.03 was out and v1.04 was still coming, after reading about it from one of our local magazines, called "Mikrobitti." Knew right away from the first sentence that NS was a game for me, since I was deadly bored to Counter-Strike and Team-Fortress Classic, which were good games in good company, but terrible on Internet. At that time, frag'em'ups weren't yet such a plague as today and, being a newbie, I did find them entertaining for a while.
So the version changes, v1.04 comes out, and I'm happier than ever to play such a unique game as Natural Selection. "Beats the hell out from Counter-Strike and any FPS for that matter", I thought. The community was friendly, you had time to calculate your moves, and the mechanics gave room for mistakes and adventuring (something I personally loved). I also loved to be a commander, since I had for a long while fancied of playing with other people through a FPS/RTS hybrid. Lost my first match, of course, but the second time ended to a win even though, now that I think of it, I was terrible. And the team-mates congrulated me, which felt good too. Marines didn't win that often back then and every victory tasted sweet.
By the time v2.0 came out, the community had grown and there were many new and old players gaming. Finding servers was a bit difficult due of WON and many had already been eagerly anticipating for v2.0, me included, since the jetpack rushes had become quite a nuisance. It was the best strat for marines, so naturally it was used the most. NS 2.0 fixed this problem and that alone made it a worthwhile update. It also made sensory chambers much more useful, initially, but later on this was toned down much like the efficiency of jetpacks. Another big thing was the broken dependancy of acquiring two hives for fades, which solved the stale-mate situations where marines rushed to lock-down two hives and waited until they had all the upgrades. Aliens were hard-pressed to break those situations, since they had only skulks, lerks, and gorges.
Of course, back then offence chambers were much more useful than today and lerks could shoot spikes. Nothing like gorge-rushing the base, setting up OCs, and watching how marines crapped their pants while screaming for sieges. It was a solid chance if the commander forgot to place the sieges in the first place. Or the more cumbersome option: three lerks spiking down turret factories and then rushing down the phase gate. Cursed at those a few times as a commander, especially when no marine wanted to build a secondary TF and knowing how inaccurate the turrets were. On the other hand, skulks had low armor, so carapace was basically a mandatory upgrade.
So v2.0 solved this. As a result, the game became more fluid and unpredictable, which was a good thing. Unfortunately, the following patches (upto v2.04 if I remember correctly) continued a certain line begun by v2.0, stated in the update-log: the effor to move NS into a more death-matchy direction and action-packed rounds. The skills were toned down, the structures weakened, prices lowered, building speed increased, and in general the matches no longer lasted as long as previously. Exactly how the dev.team wanted, since this made the it easier to attract people, who knew only Counter-Strike and Team-Fortress, into the game. They also introduced Combat, if I remember correctly, which I found rather boring. It was the kind of stuff I wanted to avoid in the first place, when I joined NS.
It took a long, long while before the next update came, despite all the complaining and discussing on these forums. People wanted to see changes in the problem-areas of the game-mechanics, but the dev.team was as mysterious as ever. Later on they did appoint a PR manager, who now entertains himself among the Intelligent Design -game-project, but since he could do nothing to the code, nothing happened. During this time I begun to notice the degeneration of the community, with friendly people stepping out and new, more CS'ish stepping in. After all, while we, the vets, had been waiting for improvements, the game had become a "fast-paced action-shooter", like stated in the first, official advertising description on Steam. It was soon changed to what it is today, but told pretty clearly what the authors wanted the game to be.
"If you don't like it, why don't you just leave then?" became a pretty common saying both on these boards and in-game. I believe many of us vets did exactly that: left, since the game was no longer what we had come to play. I did that too, despite trying to play it for a while every now and then. The atmosphere was simply gone and nothing seems to suit me anymore. I used to love being the gorge of the team, saving the day when marines had acquired everything else and I was the only one left alive. And vice versa: when I was the only heavy left to keep the marine start safe against the approaching aliens. HA with a HMG was, after all, a serious threat even alone, much like onos was. Or I could go into the scouting mode, as a marine, since there was no such thing as "Scent of Fear." Aliens could walk straight past you and never know you had been there before the PG was up. None of this is possible today. Not in the sense it used to be, since the maps had a stronger territorial feel. Lone marine could not hope to survive long once the aliens knew you were there and building a PG took time.
So yes, Natural Selection has become a lot more like TFC. The structures have been moved into a supportive role, easily countered and not really worth the resources after the mandatory, and all the alien-classes feel kinda bland. Nothing to get a grab of and shine in, since onos is killed almost as easily as a lerk. Gorging isn't fun either, since you don't really have enough resources to make a career of it. As a marine, commanding is simply too hectic, since everything has to be done right within the first five minutes and the team-members are, more often than not, hostile towards new attempts and slower planning. Would be better if the comm was just a AI-controlled machine with the standard routines for every map.
I don't believe Natural Selection I will ever be made playable again, not without the dev.team taking itself from the scrub of its neck and making a solid plan of what they want NS to be. Then, most importantly, acting now and not tomorrow. I believe this would be easy too, since most of the work has already done and only the mechanics need to be re-designed from scratch and with clear policies. Quoting an example from a project-plan of my own:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->• The game is strongly team-based. All changes in the rules have to strenghten team-work over indivitualism. Solo-play is discouraged in general. • Structures and upgrades are more important than a single player to ensure they are used. Every structure has a counter-structure. • Every action has a counter-action. Hence every benefit can always be nullified by a right counter-benefit. • Benefits are relative and their effectiviness increases linearly, but are never random. Randomness translates as unreliability to the players. • Every benefit, skill, upgrade, and structure grants a clear effect that can be identified by all players. • Simplicity is preferred over complexity even at the expense of eye-candy and features. The technology of the game has to be transparent. • Fun over realism, but keeping both in a right balance. The entertainment of the player is the priority. • Single click principle. Power-users should be able to use every feature after a single click, including joining and leaving a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I wanted to say, so thank you for reading. I have been designing my own game for a while, so I have a fair idea of what it takes to get all the things right. 100 page project-plan might not be enough for that. I used to play under nicks of Tails, Wirhe, and (current) Bulletplay before quitting. Hopefully Natural Selection II will be good again, since I have tried many other alternatives and only NS has thus far provided.
<!--quoteo(post=1586290:date=Dec 9 2006, 01:51 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reeke @ Dec 9 2006, 01:51 PM) [snapback]1586290[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just a quick recent example, on a server I won’t mention, someone started the "get skillz kthx" rant at me because.... i was using spores as a lerk in the end game. Did nothing but rant when i got a kill, even threatened to ban me from the server. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please.
<!--quoteo(post=1586681:date=Dec 10 2006, 08:10 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Dec 10 2006, 08:10 PM) [snapback]1586681[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You may be forced to a server but not to play the game.
The fact that you are subjecting yourself for unneccesary harsh treatment for the sake of playing seems like a problem to me.
If you can't find a server within the community that holds similar ideals that you have, I recommend finding a new game with a community that does. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the point really, in my case it's back to WoW. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1587002:date=Dec 11 2006, 01:52 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 11 2006, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1587002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem there with the NS community, arrogance. Sporing the hell out of things, spawn camping are two very good examples of tactics which are considered lame and crap and all that but you know what; they work. They work, they're viable and not considered illegal quite simply people who complain about this just don't like losing. Go around the spore or in actual fact learn to kill the lerk quicker, get upgrades, weapons or what not and use what you consider 'skills' to eliminate the lerk sporer or camper or whatever rather than whining because you are losing.
<!--quoteo(post=1585347:date=Dec 7 2006, 01:55 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 7 2006, 01:55 PM) [snapback]1585347[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro--> Guys, if you have negative criticism of a server community then take it to that server community. It is not permitted to use these forums to air your grievances with an NS server community.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please dont allow positive publicity then, it only contradicts the experiences of those who have been removed. Some with good reason and some without. It should be expected to see both sides of any topic wether it be about servers/communities or Game Balance.
IE like your statments about TG, mine and others (clan scene related and not) experiences with them have been easily outragous and none of it has to do with failing to follow the rules. Needless to say I'm banned but not going to touch that subject because negative critisim isnt allowed.
<!--quoteo(post=1586281:date=Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]1586281[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The other problem is the intense negativity that comes out of the NS clan scene. The 'NSISDEAD' stuff that comes out of people is puzzling. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I, like you was puzzled at the statements but when I realized that ESF>NS on steam stats and there was no one to play/scrim against on a regular basis I couldn't help but agree. It wasnt the clan scene that caused this decline so blame cannot be passed to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1587002:date=Dec 11 2006, 08:52 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 11 2006, 08:52 AM) [snapback]1587002[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see no problem with lerk spores at the end game. I don't see how its less fun for the aliens either. If the lerk has that much of a significant impact at your late game, I recommend that you sir learn how to play. Never complain when you are winning, it just makes you seem unsatisfiable. The unsatisifiable are often ignored simply because regardless of outcome, the reaction is the same.
I also agree with Emanon, if postitive things can be promoted, then people with different opinions should be able to voice them as well in an appropriate manner. If you hear all but good things, then you will be disappointed when you see the ugly side of things. If you are conditioned to the good and the bad you will have an easier time accepting what a particular community has to offer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also agree with Emanon, if postitive things can be promoted, then people with different opinions should be able to voice them as well in an appropriate manner. If you hear all but good things, then you will be disappointed when you see the ugly side of things. If you are conditioned to the good and the bad you will have an easier time accepting what a particular community has to offer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I love living in my plastic little bubble where all the world seems like such a loveable place <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Humans are naturally good people! Nothing you can say will make me change my mind! *runs away and hides in a corner in the fetal position*
The reason I left CS and all shooters for a while, was because I was sick of the formula. It would always be one or two guys on top of the score sheet round after round after round.
I joined NS because I thought it would put strategy first over physical twitch skill.
I had fun during the old days of 1.04. At first, I didn't notice or care that we would always go D-M-S. I was too into focusing on aiming at fast aliens or skulk dodging. Then it came to me as what's the difference between this and CS? It's still the same 1 and 2 guys on the score boards racking 95% of the kills, while the others build the chambers and support them.
The changes came and sensory was tried first... But then it was shot down later on because celerity became the new thing. As far as I could tell, the game was balanced on celerity lifeforms, since an onos without celerity is very vulnerable.
Well...
What I would wish is that I could beat skilled twitch skilled players due to strategy. You know, allowing the not so good player win in Starcraft because he went air, while the other guy went zerglings. Countering the counter to your counter. But strategy in NS doesn't seem to revolve like that: Sensory chamber, upgrade MT, place obs, done. Nothing aliens can respond to.
I believe the changes in 3.2 were due to the very few skilled players determining results for the alien team in 3.1. Weakening the fade showed just how much the game depended on it.
I'd like aiming to be easier in order to reduce the effeciency of skilled players and help the not-so-good players to bring scores closer together. I'd like marines to be more than just aiming as well.
As for the servers... I like bigger ones, because at least I can munch on not-so-good marines, to get to a lifeform to take out the skilled marines.
I played with my friend on a combat server and his sn was Jack Bauer. Then he gets banned because some other guy was named Jack Bauer who was hacking a day earlier.
I see a few big ns servers get full all the time, while dozens of combat servers appear as well.
I feel NS is too focused on speed and twitch reactions and that scares off newer players who expect to be decent their first couple times. I think the perfect model of NS should be the onos. It's powerful when you do smart things with him: force a beacon, kill rts, etc. The learning curve is fairly simple as well.
Look at the Wii. It's paving ground with new gamers because of its simplicity. I feel NS is heading down the path of the PS3 with more and more buttons, better graphics, but doing nothing to bring new crowds to join. That's why I support any decision to make the game easier for newer players.
Another thing I'd like to mention is atmosphere.
You need to ditch it. What I mean is put it for second, while keeping gameplay first. Starcraft has a campaign mode, but it stays in singleplayer, it doesn't enter battle.net. In the same way, that movie with NS was fun to watch, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's a disaster.
So if it's a choice between making a room incredibly dark or lit, choose the option that benefits playing, not because of some atmosphere. Starcraft works because atmospheric music doesn't effect gameplay, nor does the color of the units matter. But music in NS is annoying when you want to hear footsteps, or when a room is near pitch-black, just because the mapper wanted the "mood" of it.
Well catering NS now to new players is kind of a moot point, as the population only really exists in the minds of some people.
The HL1 engine is dead save CS and DoD, if those games didn't exist there would be less than 1000 players using that engine.
Catering the game right now to a population that does not exist will only make people who spent the time learning the game and that were loyal during the 15 months or so the forums were down, more likely upset.
Im posting in regards to the OldF servers as they've been mentioned a few times in this thread.
I would encourage anyone interested in NS Classic (by default, co_ can be voted) with no game altering plugins other than /stuck installed. A few rules though, respect everyone at all time, no swearing/cursing, no racist language and no exploiting maps. General level of play is high-pub to low clan (we have a mixed bunch of regulars) and the servers run 16 slots with 4 hidden reserve.
pj.oldf.net FF_0 ; BS_0 (currently still 3.1, server op is dealing with real life atm) ls.oldf.net FF_1 ; BS_0 (3.2)
Both servers are located on the west coast of North America.
Admin is done via HLSW and ingame, and any problems that are not caught can be addressed on the forums (oldf.net).
also, Hello to those regulars that posted here already <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
(I know there is a rule about advertising, but I am trying to help people find our community if it sounds like somewhere they would like to stay due to the cries for a decent game. As goes with all servers and communities, they are not for everyone, but I hope those interested will stop by. Mods, if I have violated a rule, feel free to edit/delete this post)
<!--quoteo(post=1587327:date=Dec 11 2006, 11:28 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Dec 11 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]1587327[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The reason I left CS and all shooters for a while, was because I was sick of the formula. It would always be one or two guys on top of the score sheet round after round after round.
I joined NS because I thought it would put strategy first over physical twitch skill.
I had fun during the old days of 1.04. At first, I didn't notice or care that we would always go D-M-S. I was too into focusing on aiming at fast aliens or skulk dodging. Then it came to me as what's the difference between this and CS? It's still the same 1 and 2 guys on the score boards racking 95% of the kills, while the others build the chambers and support them.
The changes came and sensory was tried first... But then it was shot down later on because celerity became the new thing. As far as I could tell, the game was balanced on celerity lifeforms, since an onos without celerity is very vulnerable.
Well...
What I would wish is that I could beat skilled twitch skilled players due to strategy. You know, allowing the not so good player win in Starcraft because he went air, while the other guy went zerglings. Countering the counter to your counter. But strategy in NS doesn't seem to revolve like that: Sensory chamber, upgrade MT, place obs, done. Nothing aliens can respond to.
I believe the changes in 3.2 were due to the very few skilled players determining results for the alien team in 3.1. Weakening the fade showed just how much the game depended on it.
I'd like aiming to be easier in order to reduce the effeciency of skilled players and help the not-so-good players to bring scores closer together. I'd like marines to be more than just aiming as well.
As for the servers... I like bigger ones, because at least I can munch on not-so-good marines, to get to a lifeform to take out the skilled marines.
I played with my friend on a combat server and his sn was Jack Bauer. Then he gets banned because some other guy was named Jack Bauer who was hacking a day earlier.
I see a few big ns servers get full all the time, while dozens of combat servers appear as well.
I feel NS is too focused on speed and twitch reactions and that scares off newer players who expect to be decent their first couple times. I think the perfect model of NS should be the onos. It's powerful when you do smart things with him: force a beacon, kill rts, etc. The learning curve is fairly simple as well.
Look at the Wii. It's paving ground with new gamers because of its simplicity. I feel NS is heading down the path of the PS3 with more and more buttons, better graphics, but doing nothing to bring new crowds to join. That's why I support any decision to make the game easier for newer players.
Another thing I'd like to mention is atmosphere.
You need to ditch it. What I mean is put it for second, while keeping gameplay first. Starcraft has a campaign mode, but it stays in singleplayer, it doesn't enter battle.net. In the same way, that movie with NS was fun to watch, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's a disaster.
So if it's a choice between making a room incredibly dark or lit, choose the option that benefits playing, not because of some atmosphere. Starcraft works because atmospheric music doesn't effect gameplay, nor does the color of the units matter. But music in NS is annoying when you want to hear footsteps, or when a room is near pitch-black, just because the mapper wanted the "mood" of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to be an ###### but there will always be "That guy with a ton of kills" up top of any game you play. I used to think like that and say to myself, "Damn, NS caters to clanners. This is so unfair. I wish they'd nerf them and make everything more even." I learned eventually no matter what devs do, if they even went as far as to remove both teams, just give people knives with maps that are just big white rooms. There'll always be one guy that's better than you that will probably top the scoreboard. Sometimes the guy spends a lot of time to learn how to be better, sometimes he's just naturally good but no matter what gets nerfed or changed, the guys that are still on top of the scoreboards are the ones that chose to deal with the changes and still be the best.
Well, some of the changes, such as having a better, more informative map and a cloak meter are direction in the right way. Also, nerfing the fade and lerk, WHILE it did make it even harder for new players to play them, at least it made pros killable.
But that's mainly for the alien team of course.
Marine learning curve will always be if you can aim at the moving target fast enough. That's because marines have the same functions, meaning there is no reliance on others; just another gun to fire at the target, aka CS.
And the hardcore community that's trained their skills? How fun will NS if we don't have any servers? I've been here since the 1.04 days and back then, when the fade had no blink, it was just, if not more fun, oh and the population of NS was higher as well.
Why do you think that making a game harder to play mean it's more fun? Would taking out the trash be more fun if we had to dodge bullets?
Is it a crime for me to want a game where teamwork prevails over individual skills? Or are we just playing CS in space?
It does not matter what is changed, competitive players (as a whole) will always remain dominant in the game. They are the ones to adjust and find the new querks in the game.
I for one make use of rambos, as they can be very efficent killers. Let the other guys cap the nodes faster and spread the marine dominance through the map.
Is that not working like a team?
If your definition of working like a team is that every member of the team is contributing equally to the victory of the game, that is simply not true.
If your definition of teamwork is that people HAVE to stay in groups of twos and threes and stay so close together like they are making up for the intimacy that they didn't experience at a young age, then you are being maladaptive.
Teamwork is about having different roles to the team. Some roles are more important than others, some players have more responsibility than others. Utilizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses is they key to any game. Teamwork may or maynot contribute to that.
You can have all the teamwork in the world but if the players aren't skilled enough, its not gonna make a damn bit of difference.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1589391:date=Dec 16 2006, 07:56 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Dec 16 2006, 07:56 PM) [snapback]1589391[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... If your definition of teamwork is that people HAVE to stay in groups of twos and threes and stay so close together like they are making up for the intimacy that they didn't experience at a young age, then you are being maladaptive.
Teamwork is about having different roles to the team. Some roles are more important than others, some players have more responsibility than others. Utilizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses is they key to any game. Teamwork may or maynot contribute to that. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100% agree.
The funny thing is, a few server admins pretend to emphasize teamwork by forcing voice and using plugins which force the players to stick together rather more than less. You'll get a warning from this plugin, if you "rambo" too much which can even result in a tempban,...pathetic.
i just wana say the part of teamwork that people ALWAYS forget is that you can't just be with another person, you have to work with said person. the skulk in pubs who always gives away my spot around a corner by going to that exact same spot while marines are watching him go there gives me a good enough reason to pretty much never go alien on pub servers
The problem, I think, with counting rambos toward teamwork is that ramboing is significantly more effective than it used to be. In that sense, you could say that CS has great teamwork.
Comments
<soapbox>
The solution to bad/racist/egotistical attitudes is not the mute function, as new players a) don't have those players muted, and b) might be led to think that NS is a game that can be played without communication.
Real life or the internet, it's got no place. The application and function of respect may be different between the two, but not by much. Anonymity doesn't excuse the behavior; it only means that those who care about others having a positive experience need to be all the more diligent about the maintenance of the communities to which they belong.
</soapbox>
While my actions aren't what we should be looking at here (the point is that these bigotry and racism exists and people will say it irregardless of there being a Jew or a homosexual or an African American player in the server at the time; this hatred runs rampant in the players of NS and I think that is a problem) my point in saying that I'm Jewish to these comments is to tell people to stop talking. Most people do in fact be quiet after I tell them to stop, some even say they're sorry. Many of the people who say these comments (I'm guessing) aren't really anti-semetic, but say them because they heard them elsewhere. I hae a problem with people saying things like "you jew" and "I got jewed" and whatnot. When someone says it, I ask them to stop. In this specific situation, the person was an adament anti-semite, who upon viewing my condump, threw up a vote asking the server if it was alright to burn the Jews. My wonderful condump goes on to reveal that 4 people did in fact vote yes.
Tell me, irregardless of my actions, when a new player comes into this server and sees this, what do you think he thinks? He found a bad server? Or that the game is bad, considering that there really are only 4 American 3.2 servers that people play on?
This is the point I'm trying to make. He's going to quit the game because of ######bags, like you suggest. Why is the population of NS dying? There's your answer.
Making sweeping broud generalizations doesn't do anything for you. I'd view that people who cry I GOT JEWED whenever a nub kills them, or HANG THAT BLACK PERSON, or BEAT THE QUEER are in fact the real racists, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. What I say is showing what new person would see, not what the true character of these people are.
Yes, words can get competetive juices flowing. Like, "you suck!" or "I'm gonna kick the living ish out of you!". I've played competetively, and we all know how mcuh fun it is to beat arrogant jerkoffs who "have it coming".
But calling people homosexuals, and n-bombs, and Jews does something different. When you say something to someone to try to "get in the competetive spirit", you say it to piss em off, and to make you a "higher being" in your own view. But to call someone one of these names is to imply that it's a bad thing to be it! Saying "you queer" implies that there is a problem with being homosexual, and subtle comments like this can have a lot of effect on one's subconsious; association with homosexuals and insults? Is that good for homosexuals? I can hardly say so. The same goes for someone calling another person an n-bomb, or Jewish. It implies it's a bad thing, and this is more racism than whatever generalization you're trying to make above. Instilling that being African American or Jewish or homosexual is bad in someone's mind creates racists. It sure as hell doesn't get rid of em.
I'm getting the strong impression that you didn't read my first post, or some of the following posts. There are a lot of NS players who play NS because they got sick of dealing with the jerkoffs in CS. NS used to provide an alternative to gaming with a-holes. Now though, it doesn't provide an alternative; it's the same dull CS community, and this drives people to not want to play the game.
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I understand how that could offend you, but very few people who actually say "lol i got jewed lol" are actually racist towards jews. I was there when you said you were a jew and the admins/other players were making jew jokes. You honestly think when the admin put up the vote "should jews be burned" and when 4 people voted yes, they actually mean it? They were just kidding with you, so don't take it too seriously. Don't take anything you hear on the internet too seriously, because a lot of things people say are just tongue-in-cheek satires. Learn to laugh at stuff, even yourself, you know?
My experience has generally been that people will quiet down when asked to stop, even if I'm not an admin. Had his comment first been to burn the jews, I would just replied SUYF, but his fist comment was labeling someone a Jew, which I find that is typically done by people who aren't anti-semetic, just talkative. I guess our experiences differ, so w/e.
Personally I've seen a few new players once or twice, but rarely do I see them again.
That is a good point though about the players not being truly discouraged by one player in one server. And if it were just one server, it wouldn't really be a problem. But it isn't one server or one player; it's multiple players. It's a general attitude that many people hold, and trying to avoid it can become tedious and repetetive. Looking at 3.2, there are really only four American servers that I see populated typically; having a problem in one server is quite a big deal as that's 25% of all available servers for a player to play on (assuming he won't play on Euro servers, and assuming it's an American player). If it were only a select few individuals who did this, it wouldn't be so much a problem. But the whole jerkoff "culture" is in nearly every server, and is very dissuading to new players as to whether or not they want to play.
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What's SUYF, if you would be so kind to answer?
I'd like to thank Puzl for his kind words with regard to Tactical Gamer Natural Selection. So... umm... "Thank you, Puzl." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<soapbox>
The solution to bad/racist/egotistical attitudes is not the mute function, as new players a) don't have those players muted, and b) might be led to think that NS is a game that can be played without communication.
Real life or the internet, it's got no place. The application and function of respect may be different between the two, but not by much. Anonymity doesn't excuse the behavior; it only means that those who care about others having a positive experience need to be all the more diligent about the maintenance of the communities to which they belong.
</soapbox>
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I never said that it excuses the behavior, I just said the person on the other end is most likely going to want someone to get offended which is why they say it to begin with. Muting that individual takes away any social attention, negative or otherwise out of the equation, and prevents the individual from hearing further insults of whatever nature from that player. If the racist player does not receive the attention he or she craves, then that player will most likely go elsewhere to get their thrills.
Don't give them the satisfaction by showing them you are offended, just mute them and continue to play your game.
Don't argue with them or try to reason, just ignore them.
Ignoring one or two players that are disrupting the game is hardly an interruption of communication, if anything it will free up the voice comm for more effective means of communication.
And SUYF is apparently the censor of a not-so-nice term meaning be quiet.
As for the 'You're not forced to play this game' comment my precious QUAKE NERD gave. What i meant was, i do still care to play this game, cause i like it, but i have no other option than to play on the server i still despise (for many different reason might i add). There just isn't any other choice, therefor i'm <b><i><u>forced</u></i></b> to play on the server in question.
The fact that you are subjecting yourself for unneccesary harsh treatment for the sake of playing seems like a problem to me.
If you can't find a server within the community that holds similar ideals that you have, I recommend finding a new game with a community that does.
Agree 100% with fatman and puzl here.
I've had a few friends put off NS simply because of the general (Unnecessary) elitist attitudes coming from many players. It's as if talking down to other players, what other players think of them, and trying to sound as intelligent as possible (even if they haven’t got a clue) is more important than actually having fun in a game.
Just a quick recent example, on a server I won’t mention, someone started the "get skillz kthx" rant at me because.... i was using spores as a lerk in the end game. Did nothing but rant when i got a kill, even threatened to ban me from the server.
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It's only natural for a player to react when he sees something he perceives as unfair. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, quite the opposite actually, but you have to look at why he would initiate said behavior. Something is detracting from his fun and he feels he has to do something. Whether or not the response of "whining" is a good one is of course up for debate -- more often than not it will result in the exact opposite of what the "whiner" wants to achieve.
This is partially directed to you, but mostly directed to the ongoing debate in this thread:
All in all there's a distinct lack of thick skin among many people in this community and there's a lot of "oh no my feelings are hurt" going around without it necessarily being justified. Yes there is racism, yes there is poor humor and yes there's a lot of unjust treatment going around. What people need to realize is that what they perceive as "the right thing" isn't necessarily "the right thing" for everyone else and sooner or later you are going to have to put up with things you disagree with. In addition, all person to person communication is inherently flawed and the Internet makes it worse as all communication is without the facial mimic and body language that usually helps us understand and put statements into context. What you interpret as the meaning of something, is very often flawed, or even completely incorrect. Something you perceive as offensive will in many cases not be intended to be offensive.
This is a bit of a ramble but what I'm trying to say is this:
A. Lighten up, don't take everything to heart -- learn to ignore some of the things you don't like.
B. Try to see things from the opposite perspective and try to realize that everyone doesn't go by the same rules -- which that's a good thing.
In many ways the Internet is the last vestige of true freedom in the world and multiplayer games is part of that freedom.
Edit: Wow this is a jumble, sorry. Hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say.
What's SUYF, if you would be so kind to answer?
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It means Shut Up Your Face, but sometimes it has been attributed to "Shut Up your Cigarette" (in UK slang)
Interesting replies here and some of them have been pretty much what I have thought (kudos to Fatman), so I thought to say my piece before going to back to other stuff.
I first joined Natural Selection when v1.03 was out and v1.04 was still coming, after reading about it from one of our local magazines, called "Mikrobitti." Knew right away from the first sentence that NS was a game for me, since I was deadly bored to Counter-Strike and Team-Fortress Classic, which were good games in good company, but terrible on Internet. At that time, frag'em'ups weren't yet such a plague as today and, being a newbie, I did find them entertaining for a while.
So the version changes, v1.04 comes out, and I'm happier than ever to play such a unique game as Natural Selection.
"Beats the hell out from Counter-Strike and any FPS for that matter", I thought. The community was friendly, you had time to calculate your moves, and the mechanics gave room for mistakes and adventuring (something I personally loved). I also loved to be a commander, since I had for a long while fancied of playing with other people through a FPS/RTS hybrid. Lost my first match, of course, but the second time ended to a win even though, now that I think of it, I was terrible. And the team-mates congrulated me, which felt good too. Marines didn't win that often back then and every victory tasted sweet.
By the time v2.0 came out, the community had grown and there were many new and old players gaming. Finding servers was a bit difficult due of WON and many had already been eagerly anticipating for v2.0, me included, since the jetpack rushes had become quite a nuisance. It was the best strat for marines, so naturally it was used the most. NS 2.0 fixed this problem and that alone made it a worthwhile update. It also made sensory chambers much more useful, initially, but later on this was toned down much like the efficiency of jetpacks. Another big thing was the broken dependancy of acquiring two hives for fades, which solved the stale-mate situations where marines rushed to lock-down two hives and waited until they had all the upgrades. Aliens were hard-pressed to break those situations, since they had only skulks, lerks, and gorges.
Of course, back then offence chambers were much more useful than today and lerks could shoot spikes. Nothing like gorge-rushing the base, setting up OCs, and watching how marines crapped their pants while screaming for sieges. It was a solid chance if the commander forgot to place the sieges in the first place. Or the more cumbersome option: three lerks spiking down turret factories and then rushing down the phase gate. Cursed at those a few times as a commander, especially when no marine wanted to build a secondary TF and knowing how inaccurate the turrets were. On the other hand, skulks had low armor, so carapace was basically a mandatory upgrade.
So v2.0 solved this. As a result, the game became more fluid and unpredictable, which was a good thing. Unfortunately, the following patches (upto v2.04 if I remember correctly) continued a certain line begun by v2.0, stated in the update-log: the effor to move NS into a more death-matchy direction and action-packed rounds. The skills were toned down, the structures weakened, prices lowered, building speed increased, and in general the matches no longer lasted as long as previously. Exactly how the dev.team wanted, since this made the it easier to attract people, who knew only Counter-Strike and Team-Fortress, into the game. They also introduced Combat, if I remember correctly, which I found rather boring. It was the kind of stuff I wanted to avoid in the first place, when I joined NS.
It took a long, long while before the next update came, despite all the complaining and discussing on these forums. People wanted to see changes in the problem-areas of the game-mechanics, but the dev.team was as mysterious as ever. Later on they did appoint a PR manager, who now entertains himself among the Intelligent Design -game-project, but since he could do nothing to the code, nothing happened. During this time I begun to notice the degeneration of the community, with friendly people stepping out and new, more CS'ish stepping in. After all, while we, the vets, had been waiting for improvements, the game had become a "fast-paced action-shooter", like stated in the first, official advertising description on Steam. It was soon changed to what it is today, but told pretty clearly what the authors wanted the game to be.
"If you don't like it, why don't you just leave then?" became a pretty common saying both on these boards and in-game. I believe many of us vets did exactly that: left, since the game was no longer what we had come to play. I did that too, despite trying to play it for a while every now and then. The atmosphere was simply gone and nothing seems to suit me anymore. I used to love being the gorge of the team, saving the day when marines had acquired everything else and I was the only one left alive. And vice versa: when I was the only heavy left to keep the marine start safe against the approaching aliens. HA with a HMG was, after all, a serious threat even alone, much like onos was. Or I could go into the scouting mode, as a marine, since there was no such thing as "Scent of Fear." Aliens could walk straight past you and never know you had been there before the PG was up. None of this is possible today. Not in the sense it used to be, since the maps had a stronger territorial feel. Lone marine could not hope to survive long once the aliens knew you were there and building a PG took time.
So yes, Natural Selection has become a lot more like TFC. The structures have been moved into a supportive role, easily countered and not really worth the resources after the mandatory, and all the alien-classes feel kinda bland. Nothing to get a grab of and shine in, since onos is killed almost as easily as a lerk. Gorging isn't fun either, since you don't really have enough resources to make a career of it. As a marine, commanding is simply too hectic, since everything has to be done right within the first five minutes and the team-members are, more often than not, hostile towards new attempts and slower planning. Would be better if the comm was just a AI-controlled machine with the standard routines for every map.
I don't believe Natural Selection I will ever be made playable again, not without the dev.team taking itself from the scrub of its neck and making a solid plan of what they want NS to be. Then, most importantly, acting now and not tomorrow. I believe this would be easy too, since most of the work has already done and only the mechanics need to be re-designed from scratch and with clear policies. Quoting an example from a project-plan of my own:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->• The game is strongly team-based. All changes in the rules have to strenghten team-work over indivitualism. Solo-play is discouraged in general.
• Structures and upgrades are more important than a single player to ensure they are used. Every structure has a counter-structure.
• Every action has a counter-action. Hence every benefit can always be nullified by a right counter-benefit.
• Benefits are relative and their effectiviness increases linearly, but are never random. Randomness translates as unreliability to the players.
• Every benefit, skill, upgrade, and structure grants a clear effect that can be identified by all players.
• Simplicity is preferred over complexity even at the expense of eye-candy and features. The technology of the game has to be transparent.
• Fun over realism, but keeping both in a right balance. The entertainment of the player is the priority.
• Single click principle. Power-users should be able to use every feature after a single click, including joining and leaving a game.
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This is what I wanted to say, so thank you for reading. I have been designing my own game for a while, so I have a fair idea of what it takes to get all the things right. 100 page project-plan might not be enough for that. I used to play under nicks of Tails, Wirhe, and (current) Bulletplay before quitting. Hopefully Natural Selection II will be good again, since I have tried many other alternatives and only NS has thus far provided.
Just a quick recent example, on a server I won’t mention, someone started the "get skillz kthx" rant at me because.... i was using spores as a lerk in the end game. Did nothing but rant when i got a kill, even threatened to ban me from the server.
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if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please.
You may be forced to a server but not to play the game.
The fact that you are subjecting yourself for unneccesary harsh treatment for the sake of playing seems like a problem to me.
If you can't find a server within the community that holds similar ideals that you have, I recommend finding a new game with a community that does.
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That's the point really, in my case it's back to WoW. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please.
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That's the problem there with the NS community, arrogance. Sporing the hell out of things, spawn camping are two very good examples of tactics which are considered lame and crap and all that but you know what; they work. They work, they're viable and not considered illegal quite simply people who complain about this just don't like losing. Go around the spore or in actual fact learn to kill the lerk quicker, get upgrades, weapons or what not and use what you consider 'skills' to eliminate the lerk sporer or camper or whatever rather than whining because you are losing.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro--> Guys, if you have negative criticism of a server community then take it to that server community. It is not permitted to use these forums to air your grievances with an NS server community.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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Please dont allow positive publicity then, it only contradicts the experiences of those who have been removed. Some with good reason and some without. It should be expected to see both sides of any topic wether it be about servers/communities or Game Balance.
IE like your statments about TG, mine and others (clan scene related and not) experiences with them have been easily outragous and none of it has to do with failing to follow the rules. Needless to say I'm banned but not going to touch that subject because negative critisim isnt allowed.
<!--quoteo(post=1586281:date=Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]1586281[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The other problem is the intense negativity that comes out of the NS clan scene. The 'NSISDEAD' stuff that comes out of people is puzzling. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I, like you was puzzled at the statements but when I realized that ESF>NS on steam stats and there was no one to play/scrim against on a regular basis I couldn't help but agree. It wasnt the clan scene that caused this decline so blame cannot be passed to them.
Garry's Mod 538 327 34.089 million
Natural Selection 424 181 17.161 million
You can add Garry's Mod to the list now Emanon.
if you had a clue youd know that its really annoying to have some moron sporing the hell out of everything while youre trying to siege the last hive. its not fun for the marines, and its definitely not fun for the aliens. except for that one guy who just had to go mst lerk at the last minute. learn to play please.
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I see no problem with lerk spores at the end game. I don't see how its less fun for the aliens either. If the lerk has that much of a significant impact at your late game, I recommend that you sir learn how to play. Never complain when you are winning, it just makes you seem unsatisfiable. The unsatisifiable are often ignored simply because regardless of outcome, the reaction is the same.
I also agree with Emanon, if postitive things can be promoted, then people with different opinions should be able to voice them as well in an appropriate manner. If you hear all but good things, then you will be disappointed when you see the ugly side of things. If you are conditioned to the good and the bad you will have an easier time accepting what a particular community has to offer.
But I love living in my plastic little bubble where all the world seems like such a loveable place <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Humans are naturally good people! Nothing you can say will make me change my mind! *runs away and hides in a corner in the fetal position*
I joined NS because I thought it would put strategy first over physical twitch skill.
I had fun during the old days of 1.04. At first, I didn't notice or care that we would always go D-M-S. I was too into focusing on aiming at fast aliens or skulk dodging. Then it came to me as what's the difference between this and CS? It's still the same 1 and 2 guys on the score boards racking 95% of the kills, while the others build the chambers and support them.
The changes came and sensory was tried first... But then it was shot down later on because celerity became the new thing. As far as I could tell, the game was balanced on celerity lifeforms, since an onos without celerity is very vulnerable.
Well...
What I would wish is that I could beat skilled twitch skilled players due to strategy. You know, allowing the not so good player win in Starcraft because he went air, while the other guy went zerglings. Countering the counter to your counter. But strategy in NS doesn't seem to revolve like that: Sensory chamber, upgrade MT, place obs, done. Nothing aliens can respond to.
I believe the changes in 3.2 were due to the very few skilled players determining results for the alien team in 3.1. Weakening the fade showed just how much the game depended on it.
I'd like aiming to be easier in order to reduce the effeciency of skilled players and help the not-so-good players to bring scores closer together. I'd like marines to be more than just aiming as well.
As for the servers... I like bigger ones, because at least I can munch on not-so-good marines, to get to a lifeform to take out the skilled marines.
I played with my friend on a combat server and his sn was Jack Bauer. Then he gets banned because some other guy was named Jack Bauer who was hacking a day earlier.
I see a few big ns servers get full all the time, while dozens of combat servers appear as well.
I feel NS is too focused on speed and twitch reactions and that scares off newer players who expect to be decent their first couple times. I think the perfect model of NS should be the onos. It's powerful when you do smart things with him: force a beacon, kill rts, etc. The learning curve is fairly simple as well.
Look at the Wii. It's paving ground with new gamers because of its simplicity. I feel NS is heading down the path of the PS3 with more and more buttons, better graphics, but doing nothing to bring new crowds to join. That's why I support any decision to make the game easier for newer players.
Another thing I'd like to mention is atmosphere.
You need to ditch it. What I mean is put it for second, while keeping gameplay first. Starcraft has a campaign mode, but it stays in singleplayer, it doesn't enter battle.net. In the same way, that movie with NS was fun to watch, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's a disaster.
So if it's a choice between making a room incredibly dark or lit, choose the option that benefits playing, not because of some atmosphere. Starcraft works because atmospheric music doesn't effect gameplay, nor does the color of the units matter. But music in NS is annoying when you want to hear footsteps, or when a room is near pitch-black, just because the mapper wanted the "mood" of it.
The HL1 engine is dead save CS and DoD, if those games didn't exist there would be less than 1000 players using that engine.
Catering the game right now to a population that does not exist will only make people who spent the time learning the game and that were loyal during the 15 months or so the forums were down, more likely upset.
Which community would you cater to?
Im posting in regards to the OldF servers as they've been mentioned a few times in this thread.
I would encourage anyone interested in NS Classic (by default, co_ can be voted) with no game altering plugins other than /stuck installed. A few rules though, respect everyone at all time, no swearing/cursing, no racist language and no exploiting maps. General level of play is high-pub to low clan (we have a mixed bunch of regulars) and the servers run 16 slots with 4 hidden reserve.
pj.oldf.net FF_0 ; BS_0 (currently still 3.1, server op is dealing with real life atm)
ls.oldf.net FF_1 ; BS_0 (3.2)
Both servers are located on the west coast of North America.
Admin is done via HLSW and ingame, and any problems that are not caught can be addressed on the forums (oldf.net).
also, Hello to those regulars that posted here already <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
(I know there is a rule about advertising, but I am trying to help people find our community if it sounds like somewhere they would like to stay due to the cries for a decent game. As goes with all servers and communities, they are not for everyone, but I hope those interested will stop by. Mods, if I have violated a rule, feel free to edit/delete this post)
The reason I left CS and all shooters for a while, was because I was sick of the formula. It would always be one or two guys on top of the score sheet round after round after round.
I joined NS because I thought it would put strategy first over physical twitch skill.
I had fun during the old days of 1.04. At first, I didn't notice or care that we would always go D-M-S. I was too into focusing on aiming at fast aliens or skulk dodging. Then it came to me as what's the difference between this and CS? It's still the same 1 and 2 guys on the score boards racking 95% of the kills, while the others build the chambers and support them.
The changes came and sensory was tried first... But then it was shot down later on because celerity became the new thing. As far as I could tell, the game was balanced on celerity lifeforms, since an onos without celerity is very vulnerable.
Well...
What I would wish is that I could beat skilled twitch skilled players due to strategy. You know, allowing the not so good player win in Starcraft because he went air, while the other guy went zerglings. Countering the counter to your counter. But strategy in NS doesn't seem to revolve like that: Sensory chamber, upgrade MT, place obs, done. Nothing aliens can respond to.
I believe the changes in 3.2 were due to the very few skilled players determining results for the alien team in 3.1. Weakening the fade showed just how much the game depended on it.
I'd like aiming to be easier in order to reduce the effeciency of skilled players and help the not-so-good players to bring scores closer together. I'd like marines to be more than just aiming as well.
As for the servers... I like bigger ones, because at least I can munch on not-so-good marines, to get to a lifeform to take out the skilled marines.
I played with my friend on a combat server and his sn was Jack Bauer. Then he gets banned because some other guy was named Jack Bauer who was hacking a day earlier.
I see a few big ns servers get full all the time, while dozens of combat servers appear as well.
I feel NS is too focused on speed and twitch reactions and that scares off newer players who expect to be decent their first couple times. I think the perfect model of NS should be the onos. It's powerful when you do smart things with him: force a beacon, kill rts, etc. The learning curve is fairly simple as well.
Look at the Wii. It's paving ground with new gamers because of its simplicity. I feel NS is heading down the path of the PS3 with more and more buttons, better graphics, but doing nothing to bring new crowds to join. That's why I support any decision to make the game easier for newer players.
Another thing I'd like to mention is atmosphere.
You need to ditch it. What I mean is put it for second, while keeping gameplay first. Starcraft has a campaign mode, but it stays in singleplayer, it doesn't enter battle.net. In the same way, that movie with NS was fun to watch, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's a disaster.
So if it's a choice between making a room incredibly dark or lit, choose the option that benefits playing, not because of some atmosphere. Starcraft works because atmospheric music doesn't effect gameplay, nor does the color of the units matter. But music in NS is annoying when you want to hear footsteps, or when a room is near pitch-black, just because the mapper wanted the "mood" of it.
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Not to be an ###### but there will always be "That guy with a ton of kills" up top of any game you play. I used to think like that and say to myself, "Damn, NS caters to clanners. This is so unfair. I wish they'd nerf them and make everything more even." I learned eventually no matter what devs do, if they even went as far as to remove both teams, just give people knives with maps that are just big white rooms. There'll always be one guy that's better than you that will probably top the scoreboard. Sometimes the guy spends a lot of time to learn how to be better, sometimes he's just naturally good but no matter what gets nerfed or changed, the guys that are still on top of the scoreboards are the ones that chose to deal with the changes and still be the best.
But that's mainly for the alien team of course.
Marine learning curve will always be if you can aim at the moving target fast enough. That's because marines have the same functions, meaning there is no reliance on others; just another gun to fire at the target, aka CS.
And the hardcore community that's trained their skills? How fun will NS if we don't have any servers? I've been here since the 1.04 days and back then, when the fade had no blink, it was just, if not more fun, oh and the population of NS was higher as well.
Why do you think that making a game harder to play mean it's more fun? Would taking out the trash be more fun if we had to dodge bullets?
Is it a crime for me to want a game where teamwork prevails over individual skills? Or are we just playing CS in space?
I for one make use of rambos, as they can be very efficent killers. Let the other guys cap the nodes faster and spread the marine dominance through the map.
Is that not working like a team?
If your definition of working like a team is that every member of the team is contributing equally to the victory of the game, that is simply not true.
If your definition of teamwork is that people HAVE to stay in groups of twos and threes and stay so close together like they are making up for the intimacy that they didn't experience at a young age, then you are being maladaptive.
Teamwork is about having different roles to the team. Some roles are more important than others, some players have more responsibility than others. Utilizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses is they key to any game. Teamwork may or maynot contribute to that.
You can have all the teamwork in the world but if the players aren't skilled enough, its not gonna make a damn bit of difference.
...
If your definition of teamwork is that people HAVE to stay in groups of twos and threes and stay so close together like they are making up for the intimacy that they didn't experience at a young age, then you are being maladaptive.
Teamwork is about having different roles to the team. Some roles are more important than others, some players have more responsibility than others. Utilizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses is they key to any game. Teamwork may or maynot contribute to that.
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100% agree.
The funny thing is, a few server admins pretend to emphasize teamwork by forcing voice and using plugins which force the players to stick together rather more than less.
You'll get a warning from this plugin, if you "rambo" too much which can even result in a tempban,...pathetic.