Shotguns - Are They Worth The Price?
KaMiKaZe1
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I think so.</div> If you don't like stories, you can skip the first paragraph.
I was playing a game last night as commander in a small game on NS_Eclipse. I had 2 marines at my disposal against 4 aliens. Although I had no set build order or anything to work by, I had a basic goal of taking Eclipse Command and securing 2 resource nodes within 10 minutes of game start, a feat which my marines deemed risky, as they would be seperated. I start off with the basic 2 Infantry Portal, Armory, Turret Factory, and 3 Sentry Turrets. I sent both of my marines to the Station Access Alpha and we secured those resources, and then I brought them back to base and dropped them some Shotguns and Welders. I explained in detail exactly what I expected and what there job would be, and then sent them on their way. Marine #1 went to Eclipse Command and started a Resource Tower, then a Turret Factory, then 2 turrets. He fought off roughly 10 skulk attacks before he was finished those, and he didnt die once. Marine #2 was sent to the Horseshoe, where he constructed a Resource Tower, a Turret Factory, and 2 Sentry Turrets. This marine was lucky, being attacked only once or twice, and fighting them both off with a single Shotgun blast. As resources become available, I drop 3 more turrets at each of my outposts, and then Phase Gates. I order my men back to main base to construct more turrets and a phase gate, because my command console was nearly taken out. I had to drop a shotgun and welder outside my chair then hop out and kill the Skulks. I got them to build an Observatory and Arms Lab, and then I began upgrading my Armory. I sent both my soldiers out to the Maintenance hive site, where they found an alien Resource Tower, a Gorge, and a constructing Hive. I ordered my men to take down the Resource Tower and th Gorge. After they completed their orders, I decided that the smartest thing would be to build a Phase Gate in a corner and get them to build it, and then attack the Hive. Upon completion of the Phase Gate, the attack on the hive began. I noticed that the harassment on my outposts died off, and warned my marines to watch Motion Sensing for Incoming Skulks. After unleashing about 2 Shotgun clips each upon the Hive, the Skulks and a Lerk made a nice rush at my poor men, and chomped them down with only one casualty. I dropped 2 Shotguns at the main base, and when they were both respawned I sent them back to the Maintenance through my unseen Phase Gate. Obviously the aliens were surprised when 2 Shotgun-toting marines attacked them from behind, and finished off the Hive. We decided that we would just Siege Cannon the Computer Core, and so we secured an area just athrough the wall form the Computer Core. The aliens got wise to our plan, and attempted to organize some attacks, but all were repelled without much effort. We set up a Phase Gate and then an Advanced Turret Factory, not even bothering with Sentry Turrets this time. We sieged out there final Hive, without any casualties. Keep in mind I have missed some un-important evenss in this round, and possibly some important ones, but I am trying to remember off the top of my sleep-deprived head. I think I have basically got it all just the way it happened.
In this 40 minute game, my marines each died once. I treated these marines like kings, I dropped ammo and health on them whenever they engaged in battle, not so much as to be wasteful though. Although I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember there names, they know who they are.
Anyways, the point of me posting this was just to get some input, do you think that Shotguns are worth the 20 resources? Not just in small games like this one, but in general. I think that this win was directly caused by the marines skilled use of the Shotgun. I have commanded these same Marines on different occasions, and I have seen them take down groups of Fades with their exceptional use of Jetpacks and Shotguns, so I knew heading into this game that they would be able to tear down skulks with Shotties. However I was not prepared for the utter rape that ensued. These Skulks were not just beat back, they were blown away. My men rarely got a bite on them, and when they did they promptly walked over one of my dropped Medpacks and finished the job. Anyways, just tell me, do you think Shotguns are worth there price when put into the proper hands? For me, Shotguns will always be the weapon of choice, because they are powerful, low cost, and efficient as heck in the right hands. If you are going to argue that they suck at long range, just remember: that's what the Pistol is for.
I was playing a game last night as commander in a small game on NS_Eclipse. I had 2 marines at my disposal against 4 aliens. Although I had no set build order or anything to work by, I had a basic goal of taking Eclipse Command and securing 2 resource nodes within 10 minutes of game start, a feat which my marines deemed risky, as they would be seperated. I start off with the basic 2 Infantry Portal, Armory, Turret Factory, and 3 Sentry Turrets. I sent both of my marines to the Station Access Alpha and we secured those resources, and then I brought them back to base and dropped them some Shotguns and Welders. I explained in detail exactly what I expected and what there job would be, and then sent them on their way. Marine #1 went to Eclipse Command and started a Resource Tower, then a Turret Factory, then 2 turrets. He fought off roughly 10 skulk attacks before he was finished those, and he didnt die once. Marine #2 was sent to the Horseshoe, where he constructed a Resource Tower, a Turret Factory, and 2 Sentry Turrets. This marine was lucky, being attacked only once or twice, and fighting them both off with a single Shotgun blast. As resources become available, I drop 3 more turrets at each of my outposts, and then Phase Gates. I order my men back to main base to construct more turrets and a phase gate, because my command console was nearly taken out. I had to drop a shotgun and welder outside my chair then hop out and kill the Skulks. I got them to build an Observatory and Arms Lab, and then I began upgrading my Armory. I sent both my soldiers out to the Maintenance hive site, where they found an alien Resource Tower, a Gorge, and a constructing Hive. I ordered my men to take down the Resource Tower and th Gorge. After they completed their orders, I decided that the smartest thing would be to build a Phase Gate in a corner and get them to build it, and then attack the Hive. Upon completion of the Phase Gate, the attack on the hive began. I noticed that the harassment on my outposts died off, and warned my marines to watch Motion Sensing for Incoming Skulks. After unleashing about 2 Shotgun clips each upon the Hive, the Skulks and a Lerk made a nice rush at my poor men, and chomped them down with only one casualty. I dropped 2 Shotguns at the main base, and when they were both respawned I sent them back to the Maintenance through my unseen Phase Gate. Obviously the aliens were surprised when 2 Shotgun-toting marines attacked them from behind, and finished off the Hive. We decided that we would just Siege Cannon the Computer Core, and so we secured an area just athrough the wall form the Computer Core. The aliens got wise to our plan, and attempted to organize some attacks, but all were repelled without much effort. We set up a Phase Gate and then an Advanced Turret Factory, not even bothering with Sentry Turrets this time. We sieged out there final Hive, without any casualties. Keep in mind I have missed some un-important evenss in this round, and possibly some important ones, but I am trying to remember off the top of my sleep-deprived head. I think I have basically got it all just the way it happened.
In this 40 minute game, my marines each died once. I treated these marines like kings, I dropped ammo and health on them whenever they engaged in battle, not so much as to be wasteful though. Although I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember there names, they know who they are.
Anyways, the point of me posting this was just to get some input, do you think that Shotguns are worth the 20 resources? Not just in small games like this one, but in general. I think that this win was directly caused by the marines skilled use of the Shotgun. I have commanded these same Marines on different occasions, and I have seen them take down groups of Fades with their exceptional use of Jetpacks and Shotguns, so I knew heading into this game that they would be able to tear down skulks with Shotties. However I was not prepared for the utter rape that ensued. These Skulks were not just beat back, they were blown away. My men rarely got a bite on them, and when they did they promptly walked over one of my dropped Medpacks and finished the job. Anyways, just tell me, do you think Shotguns are worth there price when put into the proper hands? For me, Shotguns will always be the weapon of choice, because they are powerful, low cost, and efficient as heck in the right hands. If you are going to argue that they suck at long range, just remember: that's what the Pistol is for.
Comments
I'm all for reducing their cost to 15rp though.
I once held bast's marine spawn with it for 6 minutes as the start of the game, with teh entire alien team coming after us.
I love the shotgun. Especially in a mixed fireteam.
Turret: Sits there, gets killed by any single alien who knows how to circlestrafe, it takes 5 of them to kill a single Fade, and if he is smart he will run away. Once the tfac, a big weakly armored building, dies, all the turrets become little more than skulk food. Even if a Marine is surrounded by turrets, a good Skulk player can run in, eat him, and run away before the turrets get a lock on him.
Shotgun: Kills skulks and lerks in one hit no matter if they have upgrades. Kills fades in 2-5 hits depending on their and your upgrade level. Can even hurt the big bad Onos. A shotgun/jetpack player has nothing to fear from skulks, lerks, and onos; only a fade can actually threaten him. One shotgunner in a group of LMGers makes the whole group immune to melee-attackers.
I think the difference is clear.
Definately my weapon of choice.
Ak.
I'd take the Shotgun over the HMG or GL, close combat is where I excel.
Portal
Armory
Give 1 guy a shotgun - there's all the base defense you need
That's all they build in their main until they secure a hive, then they build an Observatory, Phase Gates, and Arms Lab.
No Factory in their main base at all.
Shotgun vs HMG, which is better?
Speed of killing [Shotgun]
Damage [Fairly equivalent]
ROF [HMG]
Reload time [HMG]
Range [HMG]
Cost [Shotgun by a smidgen]
Disregarding any differences in player skill, you should be able to kill things much faster with a shotgun at close range than with an HMG at close range. Even though both guns do comparable damage (lots), it takes more time to dish that damage out using an HMG. Since people are often getting rushed by aliens trying bite/slash them, this benifit usually gets amplified during an acutal game.
The shotgun does have it's disadvantages when compared to the HMG though. For one, it has a slower rate of fire, which means, each miss is that much more costly. The reload time is also very long, I'm pretty sure it's longer than the HMG, but I'm not sure by how much.
The HMG is better for providing cover fire as well. If you need to pin some aliens down, the HMG will do the job better than the shotgun, due to its larger ammo capacity, better ROF and range.
As a marine I like both, as a commander it depends.
my fancy table got butchered...
with shotty, if a skulk is charging at you, you need to wait until hes close to fire, or else you wont kill anything. The marine combat advantage vs skulks is range. Why give up your range advantage for a *chance* at a one-hit kill close range? Same with fades, only its even riskier because they have slash, and getting off 3-5 good shots while hes blinking and slashing is tough. You get close to a fade, he blinks behind you and uses acid rocket, and at that range your shotgun couldn't hit a hive.
Look at the pistol, its got 10 shots, all perfectly accurate, and they do like 21dmg each shot, and you can unload a clip in about the time it takes to fire a shotgun and **obscenity** it again. thats 210 damage. better than shotgun, and free. When I use a shotty, I find there is very little I kill that I could not have done with LMG/pistol. If that fade is going to be in your sights long enough to hit him 4 times with shotgun, you'll have more than enough time to put a clip in him, and you don't have to be at melee range.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> with a LMG can be equal to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> with a Shotgun can equal to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that the key factor in deciding to invest in shotguns is wheter your marines can shoot or not.
A great way to determine if they'll put the gun to good use, or just lose it, is to tell people that want shoties to show you a couple of pistol kills. If they can hit with the pistol, chances are that they'll hit with the shotie. This may seem cold, but a good shooter will get the weapon every time, and the team will be better off as a whole.
If your team has good aim, lmg is just as good. if they have bad aim, shotgun sucks, lmg is still free.
Early game, it really is not worth the RS. late game, might as well spend 5 more rs and give them the ability for range with hmg, not the mention you don't need to have perfect aim with 150 bullets to a clip.
Basically, I have not run into a single situation where I think to myself "I wish I had a shotgun for this" because neither my lmg nor my hmg was doing the job well enough.
1) resources are tight thoughtout the game, at the very beginning maybe even the first 20 mins or more they are extremely tight. Its hard to justify dropping 20 rp on a shotgun that may or may not help.
2) If you drop one, everyone is going to want one. If I do drop a shotgun, which I will sometimes do, I drop it in a group of marines and give them all same waypoints and Stress that they follow the guy with the shotgun if they want it.
3) Sure shotties rock, they rock even better with a few marines wielding them in a group. Its just hard to justify the resource points. 20 resource points could = armor or weapons upgrade which everyone gets. Later in the game I love dropping the jetpack/shottie combos or even Ha/shottie combos
just my 2 cents
Texas Ranger
I've seen a few games where the 20 is better spent on a shottie than anything else. Once the portal and armory come up, one guy gets a shotgun. There's your full base defense for the entire game. One great player with a shotgun took out or detered more than a factory and who knows how many turrets could have.
You said it yourself:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One great player with a shotgun took out or detered more than a factory and who knows how many turrets could have<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One GREAT player can. Not all are skilled with the weapon though.
For 20 res my marines get a gun that makes them kings of a NS-DM.
For 0 res my marines get a pea shooter that at least HURTS buildings.
All aliens dead = you still dont win
All buildings dead = you win
The shotgun puts out the hurt here and now both tactically and strategically. If your troops are getting hemmed into base and you desperately need to break out before the kharaa grab even more res points, then one or two might be justified. But in normal situations, its silly to slap all the aliens around, get to an off chamber near the hive and have all your marines switch to knives and try to cut it down...
And even when i am a grunt i'd rather have my LMG because heck, i can spit more accurately and further than the shotgun pellets. And of course it takes roughly 3 shotgun bursts to kill a gorge, which is silly.
suiciding 3/3 lmgers on attacks is stil my fav method of attacking <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Try coupling it with a jetpack sometime - you'll be surprised.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For 0 res my marines get a pea shooter that at least HURTS buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying a shotgun doesn't hurt buildings? It wrecks em! I mean, if you're already planning on going in and trying to knife the thing, why not put a shotgun to it instead? It *only* does about 140 more damage than a knife does, and you don't have to be right next to something to attack it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All aliens dead = you still dont win<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but you delay them. Delay = time to work on buildings. Might as well force them to respawn and come get you again while you go to work on their buildings?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even when i am a grunt i'd rather have my LMG because heck, i can spit more accurately and further than the shotgun pellets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You use a pistol for long-range attacks. It's more accurate than an LMG and can put the hurt on anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And of course it takes roughly 3 shotgun bursts to kill a gorge, which is silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure you were hitting it? Gorges, Skulks, and Lerks with full health die with one close-range shot.
shotgun sucks. or atleast not nearly worth the resources. king of NS-DM is LMG.
what if you look at it this way: the only way marines survive early game is by NOT being skulk food. You don't be skulk food by making sure there is range between you and him, and he can't jump out at you. shotgun can't hit range, leaving you with ONLY your pistol for range.
It just takes a bit of practice, some good aiming, and a bit of luck to make defense with shotgun work, so long as youve got **obscenity** of skulks who will constantly keep rushing you to try kill you (like I had)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
u shoot a skulk with a shotgun when its 2 foot away and yeh its the same dammage but when there a fair bit off HMG owns all