ByekaName changed from Freak83TorontoJoin Date: 2003-03-13Member: 14484Members, Constellation
I put this into the FAQ thread under cheating:
- Anonymus contact is not allowed. This includes using a forum name other than the one you are playing the game with, a fake IRC nick, or contacting players through emails or instant messengers with any name other than your own. This rule is only in effect post TWG XI.
If anyone has any objections please speak up but I do feel it's fair and seeing a number of others agree throughout this thread. The game can easily be played with the names you signed up with. If a host wishes to alter this rule specifically for their own game that's fine as long as the state it clearly in their game description.
This effectively makes it harder for humans to make contact with others (anonymous guardian email, etc), and possibly harder for wolves to pull off a fake something.
At the end, it is good. This should reduce the human advantage, and perhaps we will see some wolves win in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=1612581:date=Mar 8 2007, 03:05 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Mar 8 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]1612581[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> BTW, Iggy, if you are actually still around, I want to talk to you about your strategies (as they make no sense to me) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about them didn't make sense? Were you just talking about my vigi strategy or something else?
I don't have IRC like you guys so I feel like I missed a lot of stuff. But imo, the humans won because of luck and cheating.
1) Even though it couldn't be fully trusted, the psychic chickened out and set up a random account and verified info that lead to a setup of a network.
2) Ths fake account posted on the thread. We have a rule that any account that isn't signed up cannot post in the game thread. That's a ban from the game and maybe the next automatically. (freak83 addressed this, I know, but I'm emphasizing it that having fake anything ruins the game)
3) Lucky seer with a lucky revealing. Had the seer gone to a wolf, you may have had your first wolf win here.
4) inactive wolf.... very rare indeed.
I didn't pay much attention to the game past that but that's what I can say.
At least I know why no one was vigi killing XD.
A game with 19 players is too much IMO. you're always going to have the 3-5 players who are really active all the time but not much more than that. Plus it's hard to keep track of all who play. 12-16 is best. If you go higher, you get long games that people lose interest in.
If you want people to PM you, then why are they emailing you? I know freak83 had people email him, but there isn't any reason it has to work like that. I would think either method would work just fine.
To be honest, during the game i didn't see anything wrong with the fake account. It's easy to do, and the wolves could have created one themselves. I had no idea that it was against the rules, and neither did Micro. After reading this thread though i can see why it should be banned for future game, just to stop the wolves from flooding the thread with fake accounts. However, giving Micro a ban on that back of that game would be completely out of order.
In regards to the game, i think that the wolves lost because they weren't good enough, simple as. You make your own luck in the world, and we didn't get the rough of the green for the entire game. I appreciate that having an inactive as a wolf was a big disadvantage, but there was a period of time where the seer had been offed, Thansal had been killed and i was open to a wolfing. The game could have been turned on its head right there, but the wolves didn't do anything and we slowly built ourselves back up. They went underground but left damning evidence from the last few days of voting, which made it easy for us in all honesty. We managed to create a game-winning early network on the back of one man (Aldaris) and a load of trust (seems that people are far too trusting in TWG), surely that option was open to the wolves?
That's probably a bit harsh on the wolves, but i completely refute the idea that we won because of 'luck and cheating'. As i said, there were times where the game was on a knife edge but the wolves didn't take advantage of that. On the point of the psychic, there was absolutely nothing stopping the wolves from taking the offensive against him. By ignoring him they simply validated his reports and gave themselves a huge problem. By late game we had fake logs and everything set up should the psychic need to be supported but it never even came to that, which really shocked me.
I want to apologise to Gwahir as well, sorry m8 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> When i was talking to you about that trust thing, i was actually being 100% honest with you. I wanted to try out something different to spice up the game, take a chance and all that. But the next minute i found myself in contact with the seer and faced with the likelihood of you being a wolf, so i had to go back on it. Sorry again, it wasn't my intention to trick you.
Ninja edit: Here's the post that i had typed up for Micro for use should be have needed support for his anonymous psychic. In the end he didn't need it, but i thought that i'd post it anyway as it might make interesting reading for Aldaris and Thansal, considering that the fake log is supposed to be between those two.
Hiya,
If you're reading this then that means that i've been killed during the night. Possibly by the vigi but most likely by the wolves. I hope now that you believe me when i say that i'm a human (or was one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) with something important to say. I'd like to come into the open about my involvement with the psychic.
As quite a few of you already know, Thansal, myself and Aldaris were all pretty close. We shared a hell of a lot of information - suspicions on possible wolves and roles, etc. Before Thansal died though, he had an extremely interesting conversation with Aldaris. After Thansal died Aldaris sent me this log to see what i thought about it, the same log which is attached below. The log confirms that Thansal was in fact contacted by the psychic. I'll pen down a few choice quotes from said log here:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><Thans|Zelda> I am also in contact with the psychic, btw <Thans|Zelda> and they confirmed 4 wolves alive <Thans|Zelda> yup <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<Aldaris> 3rd wolf down will prove anything between the 3 of us <Aldaris> er, 2nd <Aldaris> that really will be a huge relief <Thans|Zelda> yup <Aldaris> what are the chances you'll tell me and muffinman who the psychic is after tonight? <Thans|Zelda> probably good <Thans|Zelda> but i wil lhave to talk it over with them
<Thans|Zelda> ok ive just sent the psychic a pm <Aldaris> oh? <Thans|Zelda> if i die, and someone contacts you with the phrase 'XYZ' then its the psychic <Aldaris> very smart <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> mind if i tell muffinman this as well? <Thans|Zelda> go for it, im pretty sure hes human tbh <Aldaris> end of the day, good luck<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right after that conversation Thansal died, followed by Aldaris 24 hours later.
Eventually, after i'd made my public appeal to the psychic, he came to me. At first anonymously, but after i sent a chunk of that log (minus the 'XYZ' bit, and a few other little parts), he came to me with his real name. And sure enough, he quoted the "XYZ" phrase. He also provided logs with Thansal, proving to me that the two were definitely in genuine contact with each other. I can confirm that this is the same psychic who posted on the forum the other day and has been sending us regular updates via pm.
Considering all this, and also the fact that no one else has come out yet, i feel that there is an extremely strong case of him being the legitimate psychic and i think that we should go with his information.
We're onto a roll here fella's, we've brought it down to two wolves, we're in contact with the psychic and by tracking the previous votes we can get a pretty good idea of who the wolves are. So all i ask is that you follow this through to the end and finish the game off. The wolves are on their last legs here, let us press home that advantage and not gift them with a way back into the game by fighting among ourselves.
Thanks, and good luck. TMM
nb. Had to change the format of the log to get it to attach [font="Arial"][/font]
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To be honest, during the game i didn't see anything wrong with the fake account. It's easy to do, and the wolves could have created one themselves. I had no idea that it was against the rules, and neither did Micro. After reading this thread though i can see why it should be banned for future game, just to stop the wolves from flooding the thread with fake accounts. However, giving Micro a ban on that back of that game would be completely out of order. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely agree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I appreciate that having an inactive as a wolf was a big disadvantage, but there was a period of time where the seer had been offed, Thansal had been killed and i was open to a wolfing. The game could have been turned on its head right there, but the wolves didn't do anything and we slowly built ourselves back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> During this period that you describe, lolfighter and I were dead, Ana had been acting very wolfish, and Chakuu became inactive. That left Gwahir to be very much on the offensive with no support. Also, it wasn't reasonable to try wolfing you at that point anyway, because you should have been guarded that night. I suppose we could have realized that we needed to be aggressive when lolfighter died, but there wasn't any reason to expect another one of us to be seered.
All I can say is, whoever the wolves are, please start the game off with a fake seer (of course, whichever wolf tries it will be the real seer the following game, and that's when the werewolves will really have a chance).
Ah, sorry lost. Didn't realise that Chakuu was inactive so early in the game, so fair enough <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'd agree on the fake seer though. Has it even been tried before in ns twg?
<!--quoteo(post=1613476:date=Mar 11 2007, 10:15 AM:name=im_lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Mar 11 2007, 10:15 AM) [snapback]1613476[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I completely agree. Also, it wasn't reasonable to try wolfing you at that point anyway, because you should have been guarded that night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Should is the key word. I don't really know what doomchica was doing, but I noticed that whoever was the guardian, wasn't guarding the obvious vocal targets, that were asking for guardian cover. Just random people. Could have gone for TMM quite easily, but we'll never really know, because EMp had to choose the night TMM was wolfed.
<!--quoteo(post=1613478:date=Mar 11 2007, 02:26 AM:name=TheMuffinMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheMuffinMan @ Mar 11 2007, 02:26 AM) [snapback]1613478[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ah, sorry lost. Didn't realise that Chakuu was inactive so early in the game, so fair enough <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'd agree on the fake seer though. Has it even been tried before in ns twg? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was tried in Theslan's first game but that game was canceled before it ended due to only players with roles getting PMs.
So, whoever posted first in the thread had a high chance of having a role, so wolves had an advantage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should is the key word. I don't really know what doomchica was doing, but I noticed that whoever was the guardian, wasn't guarding the obvious vocal targets, that were asking for guardian cover. Just random people. Could have gone for TMM quite easily, but we'll never really know, because EMp had to choose the night TMM was wolfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were two times the guardian guard was just random due to EMPDemon not receiving a PM, so it's a possible that Doomchica wasn't really active at all and didn't catch up with all the posts and stuff.
For future references. We don't allow humans to get PMs because they are used to prove humanity among non-role players. (unless it says 'human')
For example: one game the host slipped up and put in every human PM. "you are a human!!"
Then the popular question was, how many !'s were in your PM? And it was used as a dodge to sharing the PM info because it described the PM and didn't give away any of its contents.
Similar things have been done with multiple roles and such. You may rule it differently here but we allow describing your PM but not blatent C/P type stuff.
So IMO it's very common for humans to not get a PM.
I would consider it a rule violation to ask about the role PMs at all. Asking what someone's role is is fine, but discussing anything about the PM that might be used to verify roles should not be. /me goes to check rules thread Apparently that isn't explicitly stated. I think it should be. Any other input before it does/does not go into the rules?
believe me, you're gonna want to add something about not sharing anything that involves the host's PM. If you get a creative host, the game will be exploited.
Look at the first line in the cheating section for rules.
- Showing a player a TWG PM to confirm humanity.
I see that as showing any host TWG PM for any roles. Though, like im_lost said, it needs to be explicit. I do recall one time with im_lost's game that the detective found the psychopath and posted the result of im_lost's PM to him that he had found the psychopath.... so there needs to be an explicit rule that host PM should not be used in the game to convince other players what they receive.
Comments
- Anonymus contact is not allowed. This includes using a forum name other than the one you are playing the game with, a fake IRC nick, or contacting players through emails or instant messengers with any name other than your own. This rule is only in effect post TWG XI.
If anyone has any objections please speak up but I do feel it's fair and seeing a number of others agree throughout this thread. The game can easily be played with the names you signed up with. If a host wishes to alter this rule specifically for their own game that's fine as long as the state it clearly in their game description.
At the end, it is good. This should reduce the human advantage, and perhaps we will see some wolves win in the future.
BTW, Iggy, if you are actually still around, I want to talk to you about your strategies (as they make no sense to me)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about them didn't make sense? Were you just talking about my vigi strategy or something else?
I don't have IRC like you guys so I feel like I missed a lot of stuff. But imo, the humans won because of luck and cheating.
1) Even though it couldn't be fully trusted, the psychic chickened out and set up a random account and verified info that lead to a setup of a network.
2) Ths fake account posted on the thread. We have a rule that any account that isn't signed up cannot post in the game thread. That's a ban from the game and maybe the next automatically. (freak83 addressed this, I know, but I'm emphasizing it that having fake anything ruins the game)
3) Lucky seer with a lucky revealing. Had the seer gone to a wolf, you may have had your first wolf win here.
4) inactive wolf.... very rare indeed.
I didn't pay much attention to the game past that but that's what I can say.
At least I know why no one was vigi killing XD.
A game with 19 players is too much IMO. you're always going to have the 3-5 players who are really active all the time but not much more than that. Plus it's hard to keep track of all who play. 12-16 is best. If you go higher, you get long games that people lose interest in.
EDIT: btw, I won this game XD.
Just to make sure I don't lose it, please PM me at the same time so I somehow don't accidently lose it (doubt it, but you never know)
Once again, the e-mail to send it to is EMPDemon at Gmail dot com.
In regards to the game, i think that the wolves lost because they weren't good enough, simple as. You make your own luck in the world, and we didn't get the rough of the green for the entire game. I appreciate that having an inactive as a wolf was a big disadvantage, but there was a period of time where the seer had been offed, Thansal had been killed and i was open to a wolfing. The game could have been turned on its head right there, but the wolves didn't do anything and we slowly built ourselves back up. They went underground but left damning evidence from the last few days of voting, which made it easy for us in all honesty. We managed to create a game-winning early network on the back of one man (Aldaris) and a load of trust (seems that people are far too trusting in TWG), surely that option was open to the wolves?
That's probably a bit harsh on the wolves, but i completely refute the idea that we won because of 'luck and cheating'. As i said, there were times where the game was on a knife edge but the wolves didn't take advantage of that. On the point of the psychic, there was absolutely nothing stopping the wolves from taking the offensive against him. By ignoring him they simply validated his reports and gave themselves a huge problem. By late game we had fake logs and everything set up should the psychic need to be supported but it never even came to that, which really shocked me.
I want to apologise to Gwahir as well, sorry m8 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> When i was talking to you about that trust thing, i was actually being 100% honest with you. I wanted to try out something different to spice up the game, take a chance and all that. But the next minute i found myself in contact with the seer and faced with the likelihood of you being a wolf, so i had to go back on it. Sorry again, it wasn't my intention to trick you.
Hiya,
If you're reading this then that means that i've been killed during the night. Possibly by the vigi but most likely by the wolves. I hope now that you believe me when i say that i'm a human (or was one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) with something important to say. I'd like to come into the open about my involvement with the psychic.
As quite a few of you already know, Thansal, myself and Aldaris were all pretty close. We shared a hell of a lot of information - suspicions on possible wolves and roles, etc. Before Thansal died though, he had an extremely interesting conversation with Aldaris. After Thansal died Aldaris sent me this log to see what i thought about it, the same log which is attached below. The log confirms that Thansal was in fact contacted by the psychic. I'll pen down a few choice quotes from said log here:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><Thans|Zelda> I am also in contact with the psychic, btw
<Thans|Zelda> and they confirmed 4 wolves alive
<Thans|Zelda> yup <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<Aldaris> 3rd wolf down will prove anything between the 3 of us
<Aldaris> er, 2nd
<Aldaris> that really will be a huge relief
<Thans|Zelda> yup
<Aldaris> what are the chances you'll tell me and muffinman who the psychic is after tonight?
<Thans|Zelda> probably good
<Thans|Zelda> but i wil lhave to talk it over with them
<Thans|Zelda> ok ive just sent the psychic a pm
<Aldaris> oh?
<Thans|Zelda> if i die, and someone contacts you with the phrase 'XYZ' then its the psychic
<Aldaris> very smart <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> mind if i tell muffinman this as well?
<Thans|Zelda> go for it, im pretty sure hes human tbh
<Aldaris> end of the day, good luck<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right after that conversation Thansal died, followed by Aldaris 24 hours later.
Eventually, after i'd made my public appeal to the psychic, he came to me. At first anonymously, but after i sent a chunk of that log (minus the 'XYZ' bit, and a few other little parts), he came to me with his real name. And sure enough, he quoted the "XYZ" phrase. He also provided logs with Thansal, proving to me that the two were definitely in genuine contact with each other. I can confirm that this is the same psychic who posted on the forum the other day and has been sending us regular updates via pm.
Considering all this, and also the fact that no one else has come out yet, i feel that there is an extremely strong case of him being the legitimate psychic and i think that we should go with his information.
We're onto a roll here fella's, we've brought it down to two wolves, we're in contact with the psychic and by tracking the previous votes we can get a pretty good idea of who the wolves are. So all i ask is that you follow this through to the end and finish the game off. The wolves are on their last legs here, let us press home that advantage and not gift them with a way back into the game by fighting among ourselves.
Thanks, and good luck. TMM
nb. Had to change the format of the log to get it to attach
[font="Arial"][/font]
I completely agree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I appreciate that having an inactive as a wolf was a big disadvantage, but there was a period of time where the seer had been offed, Thansal had been killed and i was open to a wolfing. The game could have been turned on its head right there, but the wolves didn't do anything and we slowly built ourselves back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
During this period that you describe, lolfighter and I were dead, Ana had been acting very wolfish, and Chakuu became inactive. That left Gwahir to be very much on the offensive with no support. Also, it wasn't reasonable to try wolfing you at that point anyway, because you should have been guarded that night. I suppose we could have realized that we needed to be aggressive when lolfighter died, but there wasn't any reason to expect another one of us to be seered.
All I can say is, whoever the wolves are, please start the game off with a fake seer (of course, whichever wolf tries it will be the real seer the following game, and that's when the werewolves will really have a chance).
I'd agree on the fake seer though. Has it even been tried before in ns twg?
I completely agree.
Also, it wasn't reasonable to try wolfing you at that point anyway, because you should have been guarded that night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should is the key word. I don't really know what doomchica was doing, but I noticed that whoever was the guardian, wasn't guarding the obvious vocal targets, that were asking for guardian cover. Just random people. Could have gone for TMM quite easily, but we'll never really know, because EMp had to choose the night TMM was wolfed.
Ah, sorry lost. Didn't realise that Chakuu was inactive so early in the game, so fair enough <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'd agree on the fake seer though. Has it even been tried before in ns twg?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was tried in Theslan's first game but that game was canceled before it ended due to only players with roles getting PMs.
So, whoever posted first in the thread had a high chance of having a role, so wolves had an advantage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should is the key word. I don't really know what doomchica was doing, but I noticed that whoever was the guardian, wasn't guarding the obvious vocal targets, that were asking for guardian cover. Just random people. Could have gone for TMM quite easily, but we'll never really know, because EMp had to choose the night TMM was wolfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were two times the guardian guard was just random due to EMPDemon not receiving a PM, so it's a possible that Doomchica wasn't really active at all and didn't catch up with all the posts and stuff.
For example: one game the host slipped up and put in every human PM. "you are a human!!"
Then the popular question was, how many !'s were in your PM? And it was used as a dodge to sharing the PM info because it described the PM and didn't give away any of its contents.
Similar things have been done with multiple roles and such. You may rule it differently here but we allow describing your PM but not blatent C/P type stuff.
So IMO it's very common for humans to not get a PM.
/me goes to check rules thread
Apparently that isn't explicitly stated. I think it should be. Any other input before it does/does not go into the rules?
- Showing a player a TWG PM to confirm humanity.
I see that as showing any host TWG PM for any roles. Though, like im_lost said, it needs to be explicit. I do recall one time with im_lost's game that the detective found the psychopath and posted the result of im_lost's PM to him that he had found the psychopath.... so there needs to be an explicit rule that host PM should not be used in the game to convince other players what they receive.