And I still think an armor boost is a bad idea. It makes more sense to speed up skulks only slightly.
But what I keep TRYING to say which Rapier7 and others aren't listening to is that it's the MARINE'S MOVEMENT which is the issue. When a skulk has closed the distance and is on a marine his chances of survival are nearly nil without a fair amount of armor and a quickshot with the shotgun. He shouldn't be able to hop like a rabbit around the entire map and bounce like a basketball when bitten by a skulk.
By the way, whomever told me about the conical attack of skulks means it's hard to hit up close and easier a slight bit away, thank you. I can now take down marines much easier than I used to.
Heal Spray works the same way, by the way. Its got a huge cone, so if your ever a gorge and 2 wounded aliens come up to you together, back off a few steps and aim between them and you can heal both at the same time. Of course, the wounded aliens will try to foil your plans by each trying to get in front of the other so they can be healed first. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1613310:date=Mar 10 2007, 12:56 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Mar 10 2007, 12:56 PM) [snapback]1613310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Of course, the wounded aliens will try to foil your plans by each trying to get in front of the other so they can be healed first. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, so true <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
Buffing skulks this much is a terrible idea which would ruin the early game balance(and thus, the whole balance) of 3.2. If you successfully pull of an ambush and still aren't able to kill a marine then I don't know what to tell you; you need to get better. Even supposing they have armor 1, 3 bites take place in what, one second? It's virtually impossible for a marine to take aim and kill you at point blank range in that time. If he can do that and you can't land 3 bites consecutively, then he's way better than you, simple as that.
<!--quoteo(post=1613208:date=Mar 10 2007, 03:18 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 10 2007, 03:18 AM) [snapback]1613208[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But what I keep TRYING to say which Rapier7 and others aren't listening to is that it's the MARINE'S MOVEMENT which is the issue. When a skulk has closed the distance and is on a marine his chances of survival are nearly nil without a fair amount of armor and a quickshot with the shotgun. He shouldn't be able to hop like a rabbit around the entire map and bounce like a basketball when bitten by a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A while back, in 2.0 beta I think, the knockback on bite was removed for one build. It was put back the very next patch because it basically guaranteed that marines were dead as soon as a skulk reached their feet, and was completely overpowered. Adjusting your bites to compensate for knockback and marine dodging is just part of the skill of aliens. There's no way for an LA to escape melee range before he dies unless the skulk misses or gets confused.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
It was a bit more recent than that Zek, but yea 100% removing knockback was hilarious, having marines close together was a skulk buffet. Removing crazy air knockback helped a lot (watch some 2.0 competitive demos for what I'm talking about if you don't know already), but skulks still have a definite advantage close up. The changes that need to occur are in resources, not unit balance at this point.
i have terrible accuracy with my skulk bites and i can still easily tare up a marine team as a skulk, skulking is all about positioning and teamwork, distractions are key to getting kills
<!--quoteo(post=1613326:date=Mar 10 2007, 07:45 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Mar 10 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]1613326[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Buffing skulks this much is a terrible idea which would ruin the early game balance(and thus, the whole balance) of 3.2. If you successfully pull of an ambush and still aren't able to kill a marine then I don't know what to tell you; you need to get better. Even supposing they have armor 1, 3 bites take place in what, one second? It's virtually impossible for a marine to take aim and kill you at point blank range in that time. If he can do that and you can't land 3 bites consecutively, then he's way better than you, simple as that. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I forgot the ROF, but I've calculated it before. 3 bites takes a few times longer than an lmg emptying 9 bullets. So if both the skulk and the marine was Godlike, the skulk could ambush all the long and still get owned every time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1613347:date=Mar 10 2007, 09:20 PM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Mar 10 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1613347[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It was a bit more recent than that Zek, but yea 100% removing knockback was hilarious, having marines close together was a skulk buffet. Removing crazy air knockback helped a lot (watch some 2.0 competitive demos for what I'm talking about if you don't know already), but skulks still have a definite advantage close up. The changes that need to occur are in resources, not unit balance at this point. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I liked the old knock-back system, apart from what you just mentioned. For all of you that don't remember it; marines would always get pushed to the skulk's left when he got bitten, which meant it was easier to land three bites in a row, especially while bhoping.
<!--quoteo(post=1613493:date=Mar 11 2007, 07:26 AM:name=XCan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(XCan @ Mar 11 2007, 07:26 AM) [snapback]1613493[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I forgot the ROF, but I've calculated it before. 3 bites takes a few times longer than an lmg emptying 9 bullets. So if both the skulk and the marine was Godlike, the skulk could ambush all the long and still get owned every time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they would use carapace, the marines would probably be throughly spored, parasited and there would be more skulks than marines so. skulks are not supposed to be equal to a marine.
How would there be more skulks than marines? The teams should be equal in size. If anything, there would be more marines than skulks, considering alien players would go gorge, lerk, fade, or onos. And, on a 1 on 1 basis, why shouldn't a skulk be equal to a vanilla marine? When numbers scale up (2 or 3 marines in a room), the balance gets tipped into the marines' side which should encourage teamwork.
The fact that I can ambush and still get killed so easily is what aggravates me. The fact that a skulk is barely faster than a marine and many times can't get into a position to ambush is what aggravates me. The fact that 10 bullets (to 7 bullets) shot out of a 50 round clip that fires at over 15 RPS aggravates me.
Adjusting resflow basically means admitting that yes, skulks are weak as hell and not fun to play, so we gotta give everybody more res to the point where everybody can go higher lifeforms!
The way the game is played now, <b>the majority of the alien team will be a skulk at any given time</b>. In competitive play, you'll probably see two fades, a lerk, a gorge, and 2 skulks, but that's 6 players. Sure, if 1/3 of a 10-12 player were fades, I wouldn't be complaining as much, but map size makes that prohibitively expensive. Make them stronger! I don't care how you do it, just make them stronger!
In any case, the biggest hint that the Kharaa are not fun to play is that everybody always complains about marine stack, and not about an alien stack. If you can explain why you'll see that there is something fundamentally <b>wrong</b> about the alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=1613514:date=Mar 11 2007, 04:37 PM:name=vms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vms @ Mar 11 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]1613514[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> they would use carapace, the marines would probably be throughly spored, parasited and there would be more skulks than marines so. skulks are not supposed to be equal to a marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was refering to vanilla vs vanilla, or a slightly upped marine vs upped skulk. I thought that was trivial to assume.
And what do you mean with "there would be more skulks than marines so."? My post states skulk vs marine, not a horde of bouncing papercritters vs marine.
Alright, since you asked, here's some time-value numbers for the skulk-ambushes-marine scenario.
At armor0, you can para-bite-bite in approximately 0.5 seconds At armor1, you can land 3 bites in approximately 0.9 seconds
Assuming Weapons0, since A1 nearly always comes before W1, it takes 10 LMG bullets to down a skulk, at approximately 16 rounds per second = 0.62 seconds. However! Marines that hit with 90% - 100% of their bullets are extremely rare even at competitive levels. You can generally assume that a decent shot will hit with about 50%, and a bad shot closer to 25%. So lets double that--20 LMG bullets = 1.25 seconds
Now factor in that the marine starts out facing the wrong way and has to do a 180 before he can even see the skulk. That doesn't take very long for a good player, maybe 2 tenths of a second, but still we're up to 1.45 seconds to kill a skulk, compared with .5 to .9 seconds to kill a marine. (.2 secs is being very generous, its probably closer to .5)
Net result? That skulk should win <b>every time</b>, unless one of these things changes the balance: --You miss a few bites, making it take longer to kill the marine. --Theres a second marine following the one that got ambushed, and he shoots you as well. --The marine has a shotgun, allowing him to kill you in 1 shot if hes lucky.
As the ambushing skulk, you can personally solve most of these problems. --Aim better --Don't bite the first marine, wait for him to pass and bite the second marine. Alternately, in a group, use some of the marines as cover against the fire from other marines. --Against a shotty you need a little bit of luck, but if you assume a marine bit in the back will do a quick 180, don't be directly behind him! Only make the first bite from behind, then the second from the side, and the third from the front, so after he does his 180 turn he's still facing the wrong way.
<b>Rapier7</b> one marine doesn't equal one skulk because marines have to expand a lot more than aliens have to to be able to tech at the same rate. ~2 marine RTs are needed for every alien RT for the marines to be able to tech-up (marines need res to get meds, aliens get healed for free etc).
Furthermore, marines are the ones pushing for territory and aliens the ones defending most of the time, hence it would be rediculous if a skulk was equal to one marine when pushing for territory. However, skulks are great at dealing damage and holding positions by ambushing.
As for you getting annihilated when ambushing, you're either: <ul><li>Going for the first marine when they are in groups</li><li>Too early/too late</li><li>Unable to aim your bites</li></ul> Or you're just using all obvious well-known ambush spots. Ambushing marines in tight corners or coming in from behind works wonders. You might also want to try silence. I can't see why this wouldn't work for you since it seems to work for everyone else.
Also, skulks aren't supposed to stand a chance versus HMGs (and versus SGs only in groups if you play smart). <b>So stop engaging them alone and then blaming the game when you get vaporized.</b>
Please take this critizism into consideration and try to incorporate it into your style of playing instead of running to the ns forums crying about how you get owned as a skulk.
To be honest, the thing I hate the most about the skulk is getting pistol-whipped. The pistol is a sidearm, yet whenever a marine knows that a skulk is going to pop out of a vent, he's getting out his pistol to slay the skulk the moment his head pops out. And it's even worse when you can do it from across a room. With a pistol, you can just blast away a skulk, and even if he suspects a marine to be waiting, he's going to be lucky to have 20hp left, while still being in the vent and having to retreat. It reminds me of leap-kills in 1.0x, leap was never meant to be a killer weapon, but they allowed near-instant marine kills. Same with pistols: they should be used when the primary weapon is empty, not to punish a skulk that happened to stay put for half a second.
<!--quoteo(post=1613556:date=Mar 11 2007, 07:35 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cereal_KillR @ Mar 11 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]1613556[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To be honest, the thing I hate the most about the skulk is getting pistol-whipped. The pistol is a sidearm, yet whenever a marine knows that a skulk is going to pop out of a vent, he's getting out his pistol to slay the skulk the moment his head pops out. And it's even worse when you can do it from across a room. With a pistol, you can just blast away a skulk, and even if he suspects a marine to be waiting, he's going to be lucky to have 20hp left, while still being in the vent and having to retreat. It reminds me of leap-kills in 1.0x, leap was never meant to be a killer weapon, but they allowed near-instant marine kills. Same with pistols: they should be used when the primary weapon is empty, not to punish a skulk that happened to stay put for half a second. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your argument fails because the pistol isn't supposed to be a side-arm but rather an alternative to the LMG. Nem0 said so himself last year or so.
Yes well that doesn't mean things can't change. Devs have said that marines will never have blood sprites, that RFK wasn't in the game's philosophy, and that aliens won't get a one-shot kill attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1613566:date=Mar 11 2007, 11:09 AM:name=coris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(coris @ Mar 11 2007, 11:09 AM) [snapback]1613566[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Your argument fails because the pistol isn't supposed to be a side-arm but rather an alternative to the LMG. Nem0 said so himself last year or so. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How arbitrary.
We make threads like these to obviously question the design of the game. If we were to follow your philosophy, why would any threads be made? Flayra: BECAUSE I SAID SO Us: SORRY MASTER.
And Rapier, don't listen to the elitist people who always use the same horse-beaten argument, "IT'S OBVIOUSLY YOUR FAULT THAT YOU MUST NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY AS SKULK". They write pages of assumption, when the argument again boils down to, "YOU NEED TO BE GOOD LIKE ME HAHA".
In the same way they assume you have no knowledge of the skulk (despite NS being released for how many years?), let's assume they are talking penguins. I guess there's no possible way for a decent player to be questioning balance. Yep, questioning balance obviously must mean the poster must suck at the game. OMG ASSUMING THINGS IS FUN!
<b>SmoodCroozn</b> I like how you totally evade all my previous points because you can't answer them. Well done.
Am I (and all the other people) elitist because I claim the skulk isn't underpowered? Just because you think I'm elitist that <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html" target="_blank">doesn't make me wrong.</a>. Now if I'm as wrong as you claim I am then please counter my arguments instead of throwing around groundless accusations. I suggest you <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/ensl_season6/&file=07-02-20_ltdm_vs_nl_hltv_32b2.rar" target="_blank">download</a> <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/ensl_season6/&file=07-03-04_nl_vs_reflect_hltv_32.rar" target="_blank">some</a> <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/nsnc_season7/&file=07-01-23_flatline_vs_nl_hltv_32b2.rar" target="_blank">demos</a> and see how other people are getting kills with the skulk. Perhaps you'll learn something.
PS: at the time Nem0 made that statement he was development lead for NS since Flayra had started to work on other projects (probably ZoS and planning NS2).
[demo hosting courtesy of <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/" target="_blank">The nineLegends' demo vault</a>.]
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
A skulk fails in a pub game with good marines. There are no demos that can show otherwise. The skulk fails in the hands of a pubber period. That is all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A skulk fails in a pub game with good marines. There are no demos that can show otherwise. The skulk fails in the hands of a pubber period. That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything fails in the hands of a pubber against a good player, mainly because of the skill difference, If a marine can pistol whip you to death before you react or realise what he is about to do that's because there's an obvious skill difference not that the pistol is over-powered or skulks are underpowered. People like Smooden need to realise this game is balanced for equal skill against equal skill, not because a good player keeps killing a worse player.
Now not defending the elitist nature of clanners, but they do have a few things going for them in balance arguements.
1. They play in teams against teams of equal skill (most of the time). 2. They play 6v6 which is how NS is balanced. 3. Most have sat down a learnt how to use every lifeform/ability to it's maximum potential.
So don't just dismiss their comments as elitist behaviour, because most of them do actually know what they're talking about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
This game is not balanced for equal skill competition. This game is balanced (and this is questionable) for equal skill competition in a 6v6 environment. I'm not saying that the skulk can't be put to good use in good hands. I'm saying that it becomes close to impossible on larger servers, where most pubbers dwell.
<!--quoteo(post=1613540:date=Mar 11 2007, 05:58 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Mar 11 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]1613540[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Alright, since you asked, here's some time-value numbers for the skulk-ambushes-marine scenario.
At armor0, you can para-bite-bite in approximately 0.5 seconds At armor1, you can land 3 bites in approximately 0.9 seconds <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved). LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though)
<!--quoteo(post=1613640:date=Mar 12 2007, 12:35 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 12 2007, 12:35 AM) [snapback]1613640[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> This game is not balanced for equal skill competition. This game is balanced (and this is questionable) for equal skill competition in a 6v6 environment. I'm not saying that the skulk can't be put to good use in good hands. I'm saying that it becomes close to impossible on larger servers, where most pubbers dwell. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The other issue with larger servers is that good skulks are few and far between, so one good skulk won't really make a huge difference for your team.
The other problem with larger servers is that good skulks often end up having to drop the hive because nobody else will get res in time.
<!--quoteo(post=1613657:date=Mar 11 2007, 08:32 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 11 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]1613657[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved). LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't rely on balance.txt, since as you've noticed yourself, those numbers bear little resemblence to reality. I got my numbers by sitting down with a stopwatch and timing large numbers of bites or LMG bullets.
Anyway, my bite cooldown number is very close to yours (about .42 secs), but remember that the first bite is instantaneous. The time we are measuring starts AFTER the first bite, so .4 secs for the second, .8 for the third, and I threw in a 1/10th of a second for the animation on bite #1.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1613657:date=Mar 11 2007, 09:32 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 11 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]1613657[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved). LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> LMG attacks every 6 frames at 100 fps; that's 100/6 ~= 16.7 attacks per second.
The bite timings are also correct: the parasite fires instantly (remember the first attack always fires instantly), it takes .1 seconds to draw bitegun, the first bite fires instantly, and each subsequent bite takes .4 seconds.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how you totally evade all my previous points because you can't answer them. Well done.
Am I (and all the other people) elitist because I claim the skulk isn't underpowered? Just because you think I'm elitist that <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html" target="_blank">doesn't make me wrong.</a>. Now if I'm as wrong as you claim I am then please counter my arguments instead of throwing around groundless accusations. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what I've learned is that you completely miss the point. The point is that because Rapier happens to question the balance of skulk, people such as yourself assume there is something wrong with his skill level. That kind of reasoning makes it impossible to argue with you. Therefore you are a penguin. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> PS: at the time Nem0 made that statement he was development lead for NS since Flayra had started to work on other projects (probably ZoS and planning NS2).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you know that Peter Moore said that the 360 would be entirely backwards compatible. Oh wait! Statements can be reversed! And the world lives on!
Lagg, do me a favor. Click refresh server list and tell me what you see. Tell me how many of these "balanced" games there really are.
The fact is when you join a game, it will never be balanced. There's going to be those 50-5 score dudes, then those 5-20 guys. We have to accept that player skill will never be the same. The only route that can be taken to matchup people with similar skills is the one Halo 2 or Warcraft 3 took - rank people and match them accordingly. But that kind of technology doesn't exist in HL.
OR
We can accept differences and alter the game to make up for this problem. My example is chess. No matter how good you are at reflexes, all that is needed is to pick up and drop a piece. Making the game as less reflex intensive, the more marginal your players will be. So what's the difference between a pro and a noob? Simply that the pro knows what to do.
Perhaps you won't see much of a difference in a K/D score if NS were this way. But what will happen is that people won't be looked upon as if they can do a task or not, but how many tasks they can do. A fade won't be about how good at moving, but rather what he offers his team. Similarly, you don't look at a marine in starcraft and worry about his aim. You look at how capable he is against lurkers (very low).
So how do you think this would be implemented into the game? When a marine and a skulk encounter they both get a logical puzzle to solve and the one that solves it first kills the other one? How would that make for a fun game?
Could you at least post concrete critique instead of vague visions (of how you think NS should be) so we can argue around that? How would NS look if you were to design it? Since you seem to despise everything about the gameplay mechanics in this game I have no clue why you're playing it in the first place.
I see lots of balanced pub-games. The team that wins is the one that play the res-game right. That team is often the team with the best player(s) because good/experienced players seem to know the game mechanics better than newbies and knows what needs to be done. How is that wrong?
<!--quoteo(post=1613686:date=Mar 11 2007, 11:07 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 11 2007, 11:07 PM) [snapback]1613686[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We can accept differences and alter the game to make up for this problem. My example is chess. No matter how good you are at reflexes, all that is needed is to pick up and drop a piece. Making the game as less reflex intensive, the more marginal your players will be. So what's the difference between a pro and a noob? Simply that the pro knows what to do.
Perhaps you won't see much of a difference in a K/D score if NS were this way. But what will happen is that people won't be looked upon as if they can do a task or not, but how many tasks they can do. A fade won't be about how good at moving, but rather what he offers his team. Similarly, you don't look at a marine in starcraft and worry about his aim. You look at how capable he is against lurkers (very low).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what happens if youre too fat to run or jump when youre playing basketball? you either work out or dont play except against people who are also too fat to run or jump. you dont whine about how basketball is unbalanced and limits people who are too fat.
so what happens if youre too bad to stay alive in ns? you either practice or only play against people who are as bad as you. stop trying to make this game into something its not meant to be only because you are somehow restricted. if you have a physical disability then i'm sorry but most of us dont have one, and most of us can practice our hand-eye coordination and become better at the game. not only at understanding it but also at the "twitch" skills. there is no "talent" in computer games because no-one is born with a mouse in their hand, so to speak.
Comments
But what I keep TRYING to say which Rapier7 and others aren't listening to is that it's the MARINE'S MOVEMENT which is the issue. When a skulk has closed the distance and is on a marine his chances of survival are nearly nil without a fair amount of armor and a quickshot with the shotgun. He shouldn't be able to hop like a rabbit around the entire map and bounce like a basketball when bitten by a skulk.
By the way, whomever told me about the conical attack of skulks means it's hard to hit up close and easier a slight bit away, thank you. I can now take down marines much easier than I used to.
Of course, the wounded aliens will try to foil your plans by each trying to get in front of the other so they can be healed first. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
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Haha, so true <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1613208:date=Mar 10 2007, 03:18 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 10 2007, 03:18 AM) [snapback]1613208[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But what I keep TRYING to say which Rapier7 and others aren't listening to is that it's the MARINE'S MOVEMENT which is the issue. When a skulk has closed the distance and is on a marine his chances of survival are nearly nil without a fair amount of armor and a quickshot with the shotgun. He shouldn't be able to hop like a rabbit around the entire map and bounce like a basketball when bitten by a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A while back, in 2.0 beta I think, the knockback on bite was removed for one build. It was put back the very next patch because it basically guaranteed that marines were dead as soon as a skulk reached their feet, and was completely overpowered. Adjusting your bites to compensate for knockback and marine dodging is just part of the skill of aliens. There's no way for an LA to escape melee range before he dies unless the skulk misses or gets confused.
Buffing skulks this much is a terrible idea which would ruin the early game balance(and thus, the whole balance) of 3.2. If you successfully pull of an ambush and still aren't able to kill a marine then I don't know what to tell you; you need to get better. Even supposing they have armor 1, 3 bites take place in what, one second? It's virtually impossible for a marine to take aim and kill you at point blank range in that time. If he can do that and you can't land 3 bites consecutively, then he's way better than you, simple as that.
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I forgot the ROF, but I've calculated it before. 3 bites takes a few times longer than an lmg emptying 9 bullets. So if both the skulk and the marine was Godlike, the skulk could ambush all the long and still get owned every time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
It was a bit more recent than that Zek, but yea 100% removing knockback was hilarious, having marines close together was a skulk buffet. Removing crazy air knockback helped a lot (watch some 2.0 competitive demos for what I'm talking about if you don't know already), but skulks still have a definite advantage close up. The changes that need to occur are in resources, not unit balance at this point.
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I liked the old knock-back system, apart from what you just mentioned. For all of you that don't remember it; marines would always get pushed to the skulk's left when he got bitten, which meant it was easier to land three bites in a row, especially while bhoping.
I forgot the ROF, but I've calculated it before. 3 bites takes a few times longer than an lmg emptying 9 bullets. So if both the skulk and the marine was Godlike, the skulk could ambush all the long and still get owned every time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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they would use carapace, the marines would probably be throughly spored, parasited and there would be more skulks than marines so.
skulks are not supposed to be equal to a marine.
The fact that I can ambush and still get killed so easily is what aggravates me. The fact that a skulk is barely faster than a marine and many times can't get into a position to ambush is what aggravates me. The fact that 10 bullets (to 7 bullets) shot out of a 50 round clip that fires at over 15 RPS aggravates me.
Adjusting resflow basically means admitting that yes, skulks are weak as hell and not fun to play, so we gotta give everybody more res to the point where everybody can go higher lifeforms!
The way the game is played now, <b>the majority of the alien team will be a skulk at any given time</b>. In competitive play, you'll probably see two fades, a lerk, a gorge, and 2 skulks, but that's 6 players. Sure, if 1/3 of a 10-12 player were fades, I wouldn't be complaining as much, but map size makes that prohibitively expensive. Make them stronger! I don't care how you do it, just make them stronger!
In any case, the biggest hint that the Kharaa are not fun to play is that everybody always complains about marine stack, and not about an alien stack. If you can explain why you'll see that there is something fundamentally <b>wrong</b> about the alien team.
they would use carapace, the marines would probably be throughly spored, parasited and there would be more skulks than marines so.
skulks are not supposed to be equal to a marine.
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I was refering to vanilla vs vanilla, or a slightly upped marine vs upped skulk. I thought that was trivial to assume.
And what do you mean with "there would be more skulks than marines so."? My post states skulk vs marine, not a horde of bouncing papercritters vs marine.
At armor0, you can para-bite-bite in approximately 0.5 seconds
At armor1, you can land 3 bites in approximately 0.9 seconds
Assuming Weapons0, since A1 nearly always comes before W1, it takes 10 LMG bullets to down a skulk, at approximately 16 rounds per second = 0.62 seconds. However! Marines that hit with 90% - 100% of their bullets are extremely rare even at competitive levels. You can generally assume that a decent shot will hit with about 50%, and a bad shot closer to 25%. So lets double that--20 LMG bullets = 1.25 seconds
Now factor in that the marine starts out facing the wrong way and has to do a 180 before he can even see the skulk. That doesn't take very long for a good player, maybe 2 tenths of a second, but still we're up to 1.45 seconds to kill a skulk, compared with .5 to .9 seconds to kill a marine. (.2 secs is being very generous, its probably closer to .5)
Net result? That skulk should win <b>every time</b>, unless one of these things changes the balance:
--You miss a few bites, making it take longer to kill the marine.
--Theres a second marine following the one that got ambushed, and he shoots you as well.
--The marine has a shotgun, allowing him to kill you in 1 shot if hes lucky.
As the ambushing skulk, you can personally solve most of these problems.
--Aim better
--Don't bite the first marine, wait for him to pass and bite the second marine. Alternately, in a group, use some of the marines as cover against the fire from other marines.
--Against a shotty you need a little bit of luck, but if you assume a marine bit in the back will do a quick 180, don't be directly behind him! Only make the first bite from behind, then the second from the side, and the third from the front, so after he does his 180 turn he's still facing the wrong way.
Furthermore, marines are the ones pushing for territory and aliens the ones defending most of the time, hence it would be rediculous if a skulk was equal to one marine when pushing for territory. However, skulks are great at dealing damage and holding positions by ambushing.
As for you getting annihilated when ambushing, you're either:
<ul><li>Going for the first marine when they are in groups</li><li>Too early/too late</li><li>Unable to aim your bites</li></ul>
Or you're just using all obvious well-known ambush spots. Ambushing marines in tight corners or coming in from behind works wonders. You might also want to try silence. I can't see why this wouldn't work for you since it seems to work for everyone else.
Also, skulks aren't supposed to stand a chance versus HMGs (and versus SGs only in groups if you play smart). <b>So stop engaging them alone and then blaming the game when you get vaporized.</b>
Please take this critizism into consideration and try to incorporate it into your style of playing instead of running to the ns forums crying about how you get owned as a skulk.
It reminds me of leap-kills in 1.0x, leap was never meant to be a killer weapon, but they allowed near-instant marine kills. Same with pistols: they should be used when the primary weapon is empty, not to punish a skulk that happened to stay put for half a second.
To be honest, the thing I hate the most about the skulk is getting pistol-whipped. The pistol is a sidearm, yet whenever a marine knows that a skulk is going to pop out of a vent, he's getting out his pistol to slay the skulk the moment his head pops out. And it's even worse when you can do it from across a room. With a pistol, you can just blast away a skulk, and even if he suspects a marine to be waiting, he's going to be lucky to have 20hp left, while still being in the vent and having to retreat.
It reminds me of leap-kills in 1.0x, leap was never meant to be a killer weapon, but they allowed near-instant marine kills. Same with pistols: they should be used when the primary weapon is empty, not to punish a skulk that happened to stay put for half a second.
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Your argument fails because the pistol isn't supposed to be a side-arm but rather an alternative to the LMG. Nem0 said so himself last year or so.
Your argument fails because the pistol isn't supposed to be a side-arm but rather an alternative to the LMG. Nem0 said so himself last year or so.
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We make threads like these to obviously question the design of the game. If we were to follow your philosophy, why would any threads be made? Flayra: BECAUSE I SAID SO Us: SORRY MASTER.
And Rapier, don't listen to the elitist people who always use the same horse-beaten argument, "IT'S OBVIOUSLY YOUR FAULT THAT YOU MUST NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY AS SKULK". They write pages of assumption, when the argument again boils down to, "YOU NEED TO BE GOOD LIKE ME HAHA".
In the same way they assume you have no knowledge of the skulk (despite NS being released for how many years?), let's assume they are talking penguins. I guess there's no possible way for a decent player to be questioning balance. Yep, questioning balance obviously must mean the poster must suck at the game. OMG ASSUMING THINGS IS FUN!
Am I (and all the other people) elitist because I claim the skulk isn't underpowered? Just because you think I'm elitist that <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html" target="_blank">doesn't make me wrong.</a>. Now if I'm as wrong as you claim I am then please counter my arguments instead of throwing around groundless accusations. I suggest you <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/ensl_season6/&file=07-02-20_ltdm_vs_nl_hltv_32b2.rar" target="_blank">download</a> <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/ensl_season6/&file=07-03-04_nl_vs_reflect_hltv_32.rar" target="_blank">some</a> <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/nsnc_season7/&file=07-01-23_flatline_vs_nl_hltv_32b2.rar" target="_blank">demos</a> and see how other people are getting kills with the skulk. Perhaps you'll learn something.
PS: at the time Nem0 made that statement he was development lead for NS since Flayra had started to work on other projects (probably ZoS and planning NS2).
[demo hosting courtesy of <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Natural%20Selection/demos/" target="_blank">The nineLegends' demo vault</a>.]
Everything fails in the hands of a pubber against a good player, mainly because of the skill difference, If a marine can pistol whip you to death before you react or realise what he is about to do that's because there's an obvious skill difference not that the pistol is over-powered or skulks are underpowered. People like Smooden need to realise this game is balanced for equal skill against equal skill, not because a good player keeps killing a worse player.
Now not defending the elitist nature of clanners, but they do have a few things going for them in balance arguements.
1. They play in teams against teams of equal skill (most of the time).
2. They play 6v6 which is how NS is balanced.
3. Most have sat down a learnt how to use every lifeform/ability to it's maximum potential.
So don't just dismiss their comments as elitist behaviour, because most of them do actually know what they're talking about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Alright, since you asked, here's some time-value numbers for the skulk-ambushes-marine scenario.
At armor0, you can para-bite-bite in approximately 0.5 seconds
At armor1, you can land 3 bites in approximately 0.9 seconds
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I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved).
LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though)
This game is not balanced for equal skill competition. This game is balanced (and this is questionable) for equal skill competition in a 6v6 environment. I'm not saying that the skulk can't be put to good use in good hands. I'm saying that it becomes close to impossible on larger servers, where most pubbers dwell.
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The other issue with larger servers is that good skulks are few and far between, so one good skulk won't really make a huge difference for your team.
The other problem with larger servers is that good skulks often end up having to drop the hive because nobody else will get res in time.
I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved).
LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though)
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I don't rely on balance.txt, since as you've noticed yourself, those numbers bear little resemblence to reality. I got my numbers by sitting down with a stopwatch and timing large numbers of bites or LMG bullets.
Anyway, my bite cooldown number is very close to yours (about .42 secs), but remember that the first bite is instantaneous. The time we are measuring starts AFTER the first bite, so .4 secs for the second, .8 for the third, and I threw in a 1/10th of a second for the animation on bite #1.
I think your numbers are off. Cooldown for the bite is 0.4 seconds. (look in balance.txt, it says .8, but those numbers need to be halved).
LMG RoF is 20 bullets a second. (im only about 95% sure on this one though)
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LMG attacks every 6 frames at 100 fps; that's 100/6 ~= 16.7 attacks per second.
The bite timings are also correct: the parasite fires instantly (remember the first attack always fires instantly), it takes .1 seconds to draw bitegun, the first bite fires instantly, and each subsequent bite takes .4 seconds.
Edit: bah, 4 minutes late
Am I (and all the other people) elitist because I claim the skulk isn't underpowered? Just because you think I'm elitist that <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html" target="_blank">doesn't make me wrong.</a>. Now if I'm as wrong as you claim I am then please counter my arguments instead of throwing around groundless accusations. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what I've learned is that you completely miss the point. The point is that because Rapier happens to question the balance of skulk, people such as yourself assume there is something wrong with his skill level. That kind of reasoning makes it impossible to argue with you. Therefore you are a penguin.
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Well, you know that Peter Moore said that the 360 would be entirely backwards compatible. Oh wait! Statements can be reversed! And the world lives on!
Lagg, do me a favor. Click refresh server list and tell me what you see. Tell me how many of these "balanced" games there really are.
The fact is when you join a game, it will never be balanced. There's going to be those 50-5 score dudes, then those 5-20 guys. We have to accept that player skill will never be the same. The only route that can be taken to matchup people with similar skills is the one Halo 2 or Warcraft 3 took - rank people and match them accordingly. But that kind of technology doesn't exist in HL.
OR
We can accept differences and alter the game to make up for this problem. My example is chess. No matter how good you are at reflexes, all that is needed is to pick up and drop a piece. Making the game as less reflex intensive, the more marginal your players will be. So what's the difference between a pro and a noob? Simply that the pro knows what to do.
Perhaps you won't see much of a difference in a K/D score if NS were this way. But what will happen is that people won't be looked upon as if they can do a task or not, but how many tasks they can do. A fade won't be about how good at moving, but rather what he offers his team. Similarly, you don't look at a marine in starcraft and worry about his aim. You look at how capable he is against lurkers (very low).
Could you at least post concrete critique instead of vague visions (of how you think NS should be) so we can argue around that? How would NS look if you were to design it? Since you seem to despise everything about the gameplay mechanics in this game I have no clue why you're playing it in the first place.
I see lots of balanced pub-games. The team that wins is the one that play the res-game right. That team is often the team with the best player(s) because good/experienced players seem to know the game mechanics better than newbies and knows what needs to be done. How is that wrong?
We can accept differences and alter the game to make up for this problem. My example is chess. No matter how good you are at reflexes, all that is needed is to pick up and drop a piece. Making the game as less reflex intensive, the more marginal your players will be. So what's the difference between a pro and a noob? Simply that the pro knows what to do.
Perhaps you won't see much of a difference in a K/D score if NS were this way. But what will happen is that people won't be looked upon as if they can do a task or not, but how many tasks they can do. A fade won't be about how good at moving, but rather what he offers his team. Similarly, you don't look at a marine in starcraft and worry about his aim. You look at how capable he is against lurkers (very low).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what happens if youre too fat to run or jump when youre playing basketball? you either work out or dont play except against people who are also too fat to run or jump. you dont whine about how basketball is unbalanced and limits people who are too fat.
so what happens if youre too bad to stay alive in ns? you either practice or only play against people who are as bad as you. stop trying to make this game into something its not meant to be only because you are somehow restricted. if you have a physical disability then i'm sorry but most of us dont have one, and most of us can practice our hand-eye coordination and become better at the game. not only at understanding it but also at the "twitch" skills. there is no "talent" in computer games because no-one is born with a mouse in their hand, so to speak.