<!--quoteo(post=1614892:date=Mar 16 2007, 08:30 AM:name=Wyzcrak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak @ Mar 16 2007, 08:30 AM) [snapback]1614892[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "Many of you" have poor memories (but, then, it's been a long time ago for many of you). You were playing on TGNS on October 4th, 2006 when you earned (we don't just "give" them out) yours. If any of you has any questions about those bans, our ban appeal policies are well documented in our Rules forums. Regardless, no banning has ever occurred on TGNS due to any affiliation with any NS clan. Each banned is earned, not given. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Brought to you by the same crew that banned a Dystopia Mapper from his own map because "he did not play the right way"
Hilarious stuff man, we get a kick about that all the time on the dys vent.
<!--quoteo(post=1614893:date=Mar 16 2007, 04:51 AM:name=Dogg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dogg @ Mar 16 2007, 04:51 AM) [snapback]1614893[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've suggested this before. I'm what you would consider a noob pubber. I like it when they ban guys that go 100-2 because the server ends up more fun in the end. That means less rage quits, less complaining, and more "gg" after games.
I thought the NSA Veteran server was friggen wonderful because it kept the hardcore players out of pub games. They tend to respond to everything with "get skill. noob" but why not just have them go play with other skilled players instead owning causal pubbers?
btw being killed instantaneously over and over again does not make you want to get better, it makes you want to stack marines or quit until the offender has left the server. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find this post interesting, so thank you for your comment.
As I've said before, we need to look at the internal problem of NS and that lies between the larger skill gap between players, or the pub vs. clan argument.
We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance.
The game needs to deal with rapid amounts of skill levels. I sure don't like getting owned game after game and I certainly don't like being the one the pulls the team. What I want are games that have similarly skilled teams to offer the closest and perhaps longest games. But we can't change the players, only the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1615563:date=Mar 19 2007, 02:20 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 19 2007, 02:20 AM) [snapback]1615563[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Please kick the noobs from the games please, they mess everything up because they're too bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1615563:date=Mar 19 2007, 05:20 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 19 2007, 05:20 AM) [snapback]1615563[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I find this post interesting, so thank you for your comment.
As I've said before, we need to look at the internal problem of NS and that lies between the larger skill gap between players, or the pub vs. clan argument.
We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance.
The game needs to deal with rapid amounts of skill levels. I sure don't like getting owned game after game and I certainly don't like being the one the pulls the team. What I want are games that have similarly skilled teams to offer the closest and perhaps longest games. But we can't change the players, only the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or the existing players that have been playing for such a long time can take a look at their own inefficiencies as players, but this is the less likely of scenarios. Why blame yourself when you can blame others.
Anyways, if you can't handle the heat I say ban the competitive players. At least that one player can admit that he does not like getting beat all the time (psst play on the team with the clanners) though its kinda pathetic that the game balance is revolved around a precious few players that fully understand the game. It just goes to show how fragile this game is.
But I guess my question is to the casual community is, "If you don't play to win, why do you care if you lose?"
I think everyone needs to understand something. When you do all you can to help people improve, point out their mistakes, even give some of them private lessons, at some point you're going to get fed up with their idiocy, give up trying to help them, and make comments like "get skill. noob". I myself have made comments like this. It comes about when you're spent so much time trying to help other people, that you've forgotten to help yourself.
It used to be that when you owned someone on a pub, instead of saying "bullish" and in some form calling you a hacker, they'd ask you how you did what you did. And you'd tell them. And what do you think happened? THEY'D IMPROVE. I guess those times are gone. Now all I see are hackusations, calls of bullish, and rage quitting.
Yes my clan and I stack on pubs. But have you ever wondered why we do it? We don't do it to pound pubbers, though that is fun. We don't do it to make pubbers rage. We do it because we've noticed an abundance of competitive smurfers on the other team. Those are the people we want to pound into the ground and make rage quit. The people who are always on the same team together and always seem to win. If some pubbers take some of the crossfire, then so be it.
Banning the people who are better than you isn't going to make you any better. Playing with them is the best way to improve. Now I know what you're going to say, "I can't improve when I'm in the spawn queue the whole game." Well, how about when you're dead, you look for the person on your team you think is the best, and you watch them play? That's how we all got good in the first place. We didn't just say "NS, hmm, I think I'll download that and pwn some nublets", we all started out nubs and worked our way up.
If you're just afraid to try and improve yourselves, then by all means ban everyone that's good that comes to your server. After all, what fun is it when you just die over and over? But you'll miss that feeling, that time, 1 out of 100, when you actually kill the best player on the other team. Isn't that just the best feeling in the world?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1615614:date=Mar 19 2007, 06:04 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Mar 19 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]1615614[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ...when you actually kill the best player on the other team. Isn't that just <b>the best feeling in the world?</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, not really.
When we d3stroy nL in the ENSL league I will certainly feel more powerful than ever before. Also it will be the best feeling in the whole world. Muwhahahaha
Well competative vs casual is an ongoing debate in any game
1. Some people are just never going to reach those top skill levels and they know it. You don't want to step into the ring with Muhammad Ali after taking one boxing class. That's what we're doing here. Some kind of ranking/server segmentation would be nice so you've got a place where you don't get constantly served. You can get better without necessarily playing against the top players. Remember I'm speaking from what I feel is the viewpoint of the masses. Truth is, you have to feel the burn to get stronger. Truth is, a small minority of players care enough about getting strong to endure the burn.
2. Another problem is in this game you don't just lose a round, you get to slowly lose more and more for the next 20 minutes. That turns alot of people off and its why they'd rather go play combat or anything else. In a <b>normal</b> RTS game, you just QUIT when you know you're going to lose. You could be doing laundry, eating... any number of things instead of being someone's fodder. Hence, ragequit.
The first thing is a problem of the players/servers, which cannot necessarily be fixed. In an ideal world everyone would be competitive and simply give props to good players. In the real world its better to sit in readyroom stacking rines than to join aliens and get slaughtered.
The second thing is a problem of the game (needs a forfeit vote to save everyone's time. F4 doesn't cut it because you have to leave your team just to cast your vote)
Geez... I shouldn't have read through this topic, because it makes me want to say one thing:
<u>It's not worth it.</u>
NS is a game. It's something you go home to play after 8 hours at a job that's likely to be repetitive, boring, and stressful. That people can get angered over bans or ragequit games, I find absolutely ridiculous. That "nubs" can create enough frustration in you that you can only reply with "get skill. noob," I find absolutely ridiculous. That there are still hard feelings about bans that occurred weeks or months ago, I find absolutely ridiculous. That people are attacking NS developers for balance changes, I find absolutely ridiculous.
Why play a game if it gives you drama, on the forums or in the game? Why play a game if it gives you gray hairs? I don't need to pay $40 for more drama. If I wanted drama and stress, I've got my mental health or my family.
Both veterans and newer players need to calm down on pubs. New players can't help being new players and making mistakes that you may consider really stupid, and veteran players are too used to playing their best to be able to accommodate you. We need to mutually respect each other for who we are. Veterans should be helping newer players get better as much as possible, and newer players should be patient if they end up dying all the time.
If someone bans you, so what? Put up a petition, if you can, and go play on another server. Other servers are no longer enjoyable? Well, maybe it's time to stop playing NS then. If you have to ragequit from a game, then ragequitting from NS and possibly all other multiplayer computer games may be in order too. Then again, I'm probably preaching to the choir here. If you get killed all the time, so what? As others have said, spectating allows you to learn from others. And if that's getting frustrating, maybe it's time to stop playing the game. Why waste your time with something that only makes you angrier?
Oh yes, and don't argue over teamspeak. Please. There was a discussion about piracy a few days ago that was getting heated, and I asked them to drop it. I don't care whether piracy is right or wrong. We're here to play a game, not hear people throw verbal vitriol at each other.
If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level." instead of an insulting "Wallhacking/Speedhacking/Aimbotting."
I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.
<u>I still believe that the worst addition/holdover to cooperative multiplayer first-person shooters was the scoreboard.</u>
If I could implement a server-side mod that "disabled" the scoreboard (doesn't display score, kills, or death, and arranges players in a random order), I would immediately run a server with that feature. Sadly, I don't have the time to investigate whether or not this can be done.
This is probably mostly what I have to say as an NS newbie (because I've only pubbed) who's been playing since NS1.0. OK, enough rambling from me for now. Go out there, play your best game, have fun, and don't get personal.
- Cool Mint / Middle Finger of Death / My Mother is a Fish / Degenerative
<!--quoteo(post=1615698:date=Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM:name=Qcvar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Qcvar @ Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]1615698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS is a game. It's something you go home to play after 8 hours at a job that's likely to be repetitive, boring, and stressful. That people can get angered over bans or ragequit games, I find absolutely ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> most ns pubbers are kids who play with the computer their parents bought them
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why play a game if it gives you drama, on the forums or in the game? Why play a game if it gives you gray hairs? I don't need to pay $40 for more drama. If I wanted drama and stress, I've got my mental health or my family.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the dramaqueens are people with no social lives (except ben, but he's special).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is possibly the most disgusting and primitive reaction an admin could possibly have to such a situation. its one of the worst insults you can say to someone who has spent literally years playing this game on public servers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ns clans arent that competetive... unless theyre made up of immature idiots. and the scoreboard means nothing
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most ns pubbers are kids who play with the computer their parents bought them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Dang, I guess many kids here drive cars! And are married! And your statement proves amazing things!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the dramaqueens are people with no social lives (except ben, but he's special).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Says the person who forums to critique these people.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is possibly the most disgusting and primitive reaction an admin could possibly have to such a situation. its one of the worst insults you can say to someone who has spent literally years playing this game on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Man, doing an action that maintains the skill balance of a game as disgusting? OMG FLAYRA HIRE THIS MAN!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns clans arent that competetive... unless theyre made up of immature idiots. and the scoreboard means nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Words of gold.
<!--quoteo(post=1615711:date=Mar 20 2007, 12:54 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 20 2007, 12:54 AM) [snapback]1615711[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IM SMOODCROOZN HUR HUR <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1615711:date=Mar 20 2007, 12:54 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 20 2007, 12:54 AM) [snapback]1615711[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IM SMOODCROOZN HUR HUR <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1615713:date=Mar 20 2007, 01:05 AM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ Mar 20 2007, 01:05 AM) [snapback]1615713[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Who gave you permission to post? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1615698:date=Mar 19 2007, 11:29 PM:name=Qcvar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Qcvar @ Mar 19 2007, 11:29 PM) [snapback]1615698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level." instead of an insulting "Wallhacking/Speedhacking/Aimbotting."
I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.
<u>I still believe that the worst addition/holdover to cooperative multiplayer first-person shooters was the scoreboard.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Why should we be kicked because we're better players? I can't possibly think of an excuse for this. That's like kicking Michael Jordan off the court because he was better than everyone else.
2. You obviously haven't even played in a competitive clan. I've been in the clan I'm in for a few months now. What I've gotten from it was the 100's of scrims and pugs I've been in where its a bunch of competent players, playing a good game. There isn't any pressure to play, because no one really cares about the team record.
3. I don't think I've seen anyone who plays to get to the top of the scoreboard.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. You obviously haven't even played in a competitive clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having not seen the competitive NS clan scene at all, I stand corrected, and I now see that I am probably the least qualified to comment on that in that case. I will be more careful in the future when I comment on that. I mainly wanted to get out that "competitive" makes me think that there's pressure from other clan members to do well and to not let them down. As for the scoreboard, I'm not saying that getting to the top of the scoreboard is the goal. I'm just saying that the fact that it's there creates pressure. It might not be pressure to be at the top, it could be pressure to not be at the bottom and get chewed on by other players.
I see that there's a bit of animosity between people here, so just forget I said anything. I was going to post more, but I don't want to stir the pot anymore. Apologies if I offended anyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1615719:date=Mar 20 2007, 01:41 AM:name=DuoGodOfDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 20 2007, 01:41 AM) [snapback]1615719[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The competitive league can be very very stressful when you want to win badly. I think it is hilarious and enjoy every minute of it.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1615698:date=Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM:name=Qcvar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Qcvar @ Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]1615698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I could implement a server-side mod that "disabled" the scoreboard (doesn't display score, kills, or death, and arranges players in a random order), I would immediately run a server with that feature. Sadly, I don't have the time to investigate whether or not this can be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We disabled the scoreboard on TG for a while (or considered it in the admin forums -- I can't remember which). It's easy to (mostly) do with a plugin.
But get this. Even after you remove the "I'm so awesome" incentive for having that information in the game, the TEAM really does need it. That's what we discovered.
You need to be able to calculate, based on how many kills ("how much RFK") the other team has gotten, how quickly they're going to tech. You need to know how well your team is performing (beyond finances/RFK) and adjust strategy on the fly. You need to know who the other team's powerhouse is, so you can maybe plan around shutting her down. You need to know who YOUR team's powerhouse is, which is sometimes most easily determined with hard numbers.
Yes, you could ("I could") argue that this information can be maintained without it being displayed on the screen (memory, etc), but do consider this additional team-based (not me-based) sacrifice you're making if you remove the scoreboard.
We did, and we still have the scoreboard today (our NS is about as stock as they come), despite being known as one of the most team-based gameplay environments in pub NS today.
<!--quoteo(post=1615698:date=Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM:name=Qcvar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Qcvar @ Mar 19 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]1615698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Geez... I shouldn't have read through this topic, because it makes me want to say one thing:
<u>It's not worth it.</u>
... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, why bother patching the game. Leave it at 1.0 and if you don't like it, GTFO! /sarcasm
I post here from work so I got plenty of time on my hands. Plus I've created/designed other games so I find the topic of game balance interesting. Yeah you gotta sort through the drama, but some good ideas are out there.
<!--quoteo(post=1615711:date=Mar 19 2007, 05:54 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 19 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]1615711[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Man, doing an action that maintains the skill balance of a game as disgusting? OMG FLAYRA HIRE THIS MAN! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your idea of "skill balance" is to make the game so that everybody is equally bad.
Unless my boss wants this reopened, I think we've all said enough.
I'd like to sum up a few thoughts I've had reading this.
For many players, servers are based on communities first. You're blind if you can't see the social impact on yourself and others being part of an online community, especially as we move into newer communication technologies. These players either feel that these communities, and their rules, enhance the gameplay or they see something more then the game and enjoy the interactions with people.
For other players, the core gameplay is what keeps them at their PC... understandable and should be expected. I personally think they are missing out, but that's the way it is. I have to accept that kind of player and hope that they can either conform to my gameplay style or find a server that suits them. I don't avoid them but they aren't always happy with how I play the game.
Take from this thread what you will, but I don't think much has been accomplished. There is always going to be something to blame: admins, rules, communities, the game itself... but it's the same tune that's been sung for every game from the beginnings to the ends. I hope you find your niche or make your own, but I'm not sure you're going to find many people to play with without making compromises. In the end we are all people and that is often forgotten behind a keyboard and mouse.
Maybe that's a little too serious, or maybe that goes places you're not comfortable with regarding a thread about NS servers. I'm not trying to get all up in my own ###### here and I don't promise I haven't. I'll get off my soap box now.
Comments
"Many of you" have poor memories (but, then, it's been a long time ago for many of you). You were playing on TGNS on October 4th, 2006 when you earned (we don't just "give" them out) yours. If any of you has any questions about those bans, our ban appeal policies are well documented in our Rules forums. Regardless, no banning has ever occurred on TGNS due to any affiliation with any NS clan. Each banned is earned, not given.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brought to you by the same crew that banned a Dystopia Mapper from his own map because "he did not play the right way"
Hilarious stuff man, we get a kick about that all the time on the dys vent.
I've suggested this before. I'm what you would consider a noob pubber. I like it when they ban guys that go 100-2 because the server ends up more fun in the end. That means less rage quits, less complaining, and more "gg" after games.
I thought the NSA Veteran server was friggen wonderful because it kept the hardcore players out of pub games. They tend to respond to everything with "get skill. noob" but why not just have them go play with other skilled players instead owning causal pubbers?
btw being killed instantaneously over and over again does not make you want to get better, it makes you want to stack marines or quit until the offender has left the server.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find this post interesting, so thank you for your comment.
As I've said before, we need to look at the internal problem of NS and that lies between the larger skill gap between players, or the pub vs. clan argument.
We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance.
The game needs to deal with rapid amounts of skill levels. I sure don't like getting owned game after game and I certainly don't like being the one the pulls the team. What I want are games that have similarly skilled teams to offer the closest and perhaps longest games. But we can't change the players, only the game.
We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Please kick the noobs from the games please, they mess everything up because they're too bad.
I find this post interesting, so thank you for your comment.
As I've said before, we need to look at the internal problem of NS and that lies between the larger skill gap between players, or the pub vs. clan argument.
We don't have a skill-matching system. Nor do we have a handicap system either. The only option is to change the game to be easier, or in this archaic example, simply kick the players causing the most disturbance to balance.
The game needs to deal with rapid amounts of skill levels. I sure don't like getting owned game after game and I certainly don't like being the one the pulls the team. What I want are games that have similarly skilled teams to offer the closest and perhaps longest games. But we can't change the players, only the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or the existing players that have been playing for such a long time can take a look at their own inefficiencies as players, but this is the less likely of scenarios. Why blame yourself when you can blame others.
Anyways, if you can't handle the heat I say ban the competitive players. At least that one player can admit that he does not like getting beat all the time (psst play on the team with the clanners) though its kinda pathetic that the game balance is revolved around a precious few players that fully understand the game. It just goes to show how fragile this game is.
But I guess my question is to the casual community is, "If you don't play to win, why do you care if you lose?"
It used to be that when you owned someone on a pub, instead of saying "bullish" and in some form calling you a hacker, they'd ask you how you did what you did. And you'd tell them. And what do you think happened? THEY'D IMPROVE. I guess those times are gone. Now all I see are hackusations, calls of bullish, and rage quitting.
Yes my clan and I stack on pubs. But have you ever wondered why we do it? We don't do it to pound pubbers, though that is fun. We don't do it to make pubbers rage. We do it because we've noticed an abundance of competitive smurfers on the other team. Those are the people we want to pound into the ground and make rage quit. The people who are always on the same team together and always seem to win. If some pubbers take some of the crossfire, then so be it.
Banning the people who are better than you isn't going to make you any better. Playing with them is the best way to improve. Now I know what you're going to say, "I can't improve when I'm in the spawn queue the whole game." Well, how about when you're dead, you look for the person on your team you think is the best, and you watch them play? That's how we all got good in the first place. We didn't just say "NS, hmm, I think I'll download that and pwn some nublets", we all started out nubs and worked our way up.
If you're just afraid to try and improve yourselves, then by all means ban everyone that's good that comes to your server. After all, what fun is it when you just die over and over? But you'll miss that feeling, that time, 1 out of 100, when you actually kill the best player on the other team. Isn't that just the best feeling in the world?
...when you actually kill the best player on the other team. Isn't that just <b>the best feeling in the world?</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, not really.
1. Some people are just never going to reach those top skill levels and they know it. You don't want to step into the ring with Muhammad Ali after taking one boxing class. That's what we're doing here. Some kind of ranking/server segmentation would be nice so you've got a place where you don't get constantly served. You can get better without necessarily playing against the top players. Remember I'm speaking from what I feel is the viewpoint of the masses. Truth is, you have to feel the burn to get stronger. Truth is, a small minority of players care enough about getting strong to endure the burn.
2. Another problem is in this game you don't just lose a round, you get to slowly lose more and more for the next 20 minutes. That turns alot of people off and its why they'd rather go play combat or anything else. In a <b>normal</b> RTS game, you just QUIT when you know you're going to lose. You could be doing laundry, eating... any number of things instead of being someone's fodder. Hence, ragequit.
The first thing is a problem of the players/servers, which cannot necessarily be fixed. In an ideal world everyone would be competitive and simply give props to good players. In the real world its better to sit in readyroom stacking rines than to join aliens and get slaughtered.
The second thing is a problem of the game (needs a forfeit vote to save everyone's time. F4 doesn't cut it because you have to leave your team just to cast your vote)
<u>It's not worth it.</u>
NS is a game. It's something you go home to play after 8 hours at a job that's likely to be repetitive, boring, and stressful. That people can get angered over bans or ragequit games, I find absolutely ridiculous. That "nubs" can create enough frustration in you that you can only reply with "get skill. noob," I find absolutely ridiculous. That there are still hard feelings about bans that occurred weeks or months ago, I find absolutely ridiculous. That people are attacking NS developers for balance changes, I find absolutely ridiculous.
Why play a game if it gives you drama, on the forums or in the game? Why play a game if it gives you gray hairs? I don't need to pay $40 for more drama. If I wanted drama and stress, I've got my mental health or my family.
Both veterans and newer players need to calm down on pubs. New players can't help being new players and making mistakes that you may consider really stupid, and veteran players are too used to playing their best to be able to accommodate you. We need to mutually respect each other for who we are. Veterans should be helping newer players get better as much as possible, and newer players should be patient if they end up dying all the time.
If someone bans you, so what? Put up a petition, if you can, and go play on another server. Other servers are no longer enjoyable? Well, maybe it's time to stop playing NS then.
If you have to ragequit from a game, then ragequitting from NS and possibly all other multiplayer computer games may be in order too. Then again, I'm probably preaching to the choir here.
If you get killed all the time, so what? As others have said, spectating allows you to learn from others. And if that's getting frustrating, maybe it's time to stop playing the game. Why waste your time with something that only makes you angrier?
Oh yes, and don't argue over teamspeak. Please. There was a discussion about piracy a few days ago that was getting heated, and I asked them to drop it. I don't care whether piracy is right or wrong. We're here to play a game, not hear people throw verbal vitriol at each other.
If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level." instead of an insulting "Wallhacking/Speedhacking/Aimbotting."
I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.
<u>I still believe that the worst addition/holdover to cooperative multiplayer first-person shooters was the scoreboard.</u>
If I could implement a server-side mod that "disabled" the scoreboard (doesn't display score, kills, or death, and arranges players in a random order), I would immediately run a server with that feature. Sadly, I don't have the time to investigate whether or not this can be done.
This is probably mostly what I have to say as an NS newbie (because I've only pubbed) who's been playing since NS1.0. OK, enough rambling from me for now. Go out there, play your best game, have fun, and don't get personal.
- Cool Mint / Middle Finger of Death / My Mother is a Fish / Degenerative
NS is a game. It's something you go home to play after 8 hours at a job that's likely to be repetitive, boring, and stressful. That people can get angered over bans or ragequit games, I find absolutely ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
most ns pubbers are kids who play with the computer their parents bought them
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why play a game if it gives you drama, on the forums or in the game? Why play a game if it gives you gray hairs? I don't need to pay $40 for more drama. If I wanted drama and stress, I've got my mental health or my family.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the dramaqueens are people with no social lives (except ben, but he's special).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is possibly the most disgusting and primitive reaction an admin could possibly have to such a situation. its one of the worst insults you can say to someone who has spent literally years playing this game on public servers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns clans arent that competetive... unless theyre made up of immature idiots. and the scoreboard means nothing
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the dramaqueens are people with no social lives (except ben, but he's special).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Says the person who forums to critique these people.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is possibly the most disgusting and primitive reaction an admin could possibly have to such a situation. its one of the worst insults you can say to someone who has spent literally years playing this game on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Man, doing an action that maintains the skill balance of a game as disgusting? OMG FLAYRA HIRE THIS MAN!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns clans arent that competetive... unless theyre made up of immature idiots. and the scoreboard means nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Words of gold.
IM SMOODCROOZN HUR HUR
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Who gave you permission to post?
IM SMOODCROOZN HUR HUR
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<!--quoteo(post=1615713:date=Mar 20 2007, 01:05 AM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ Mar 20 2007, 01:05 AM) [snapback]1615713[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Who gave you permission to post?
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<!--quoteo(post=1615698:date=Mar 19 2007, 11:29 PM:name=Qcvar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Qcvar @ Mar 19 2007, 11:29 PM) [snapback]1615698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If an admin feels like a player or team is creating an imbalance, regardless of whether or not hacking is happening, instead of kicking or banning, the admin should just ask the player to change teams or leave the server. If it's really <i>really</i> necessary, then the kick or the ban should have a reason along the lines of, "We're sorry, but this server is currently under your skill level." instead of an insulting "Wallhacking/Speedhacking/Aimbotting."
I don't like competitive clans because competition breeds animosity and drama. There's pressure on everyone to perform, and the scoreboard is king. Personal problems can develop among clans and within clans if someone makes a mistake, for example. Making clans that just play for the hell of it, I feel, is the only appropriate way to form a clan.
<u>I still believe that the worst addition/holdover to cooperative multiplayer first-person shooters was the scoreboard.</u>
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1. Why should we be kicked because we're better players? I can't possibly think of an excuse for this. That's like kicking Michael Jordan off the court because he was better than everyone else.
2. You obviously haven't even played in a competitive clan. I've been in the clan I'm in for a few months now. What I've gotten from it was the 100's of scrims and pugs I've been in where its a bunch of competent players, playing a good game. There isn't any pressure to play, because no one really cares about the team record.
3. I don't think I've seen anyone who plays to get to the top of the scoreboard.
Having not seen the competitive NS clan scene at all, I stand corrected, and I now see that I am probably the least qualified to comment on that in that case. I will be more careful in the future when I comment on that. I mainly wanted to get out that "competitive" makes me think that there's pressure from other clan members to do well and to not let them down. As for the scoreboard, I'm not saying that getting to the top of the scoreboard is the goal. I'm just saying that the fact that it's there creates pressure. It might not be pressure to be at the top, it could be pressure to not be at the bottom and get chewed on by other players.
I see that there's a bit of animosity between people here, so just forget I said anything. I was going to post more, but I don't want to stir the pot anymore. Apologies if I offended anyone.
<a href="http://media.putfile.com/Mines-for-Deimos-plax" target="_blank">http://media.putfile.com/Mines-for-Deimos-plax</a>
The competitive league can be very very stressful when you want to win badly. I think it is hilarious and enjoy every minute of it.
<a href="http://media.putfile.com/Mines-for-Deimos-plax" target="_blank">http://media.putfile.com/Mines-for-Deimos-plax</a>
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That is an accurate representation.
We disabled the scoreboard on TG for a while (or considered it in the admin forums -- I can't remember which). It's easy to (mostly) do with a plugin.
But get this. Even after you remove the "I'm so awesome" incentive for having that information in the game, the TEAM really does need it. That's what we discovered.
You need to be able to calculate, based on how many kills ("how much RFK") the other team has gotten, how quickly they're going to tech. You need to know how well your team is performing (beyond finances/RFK) and adjust strategy on the fly. You need to know who the other team's powerhouse is, so you can maybe plan around shutting her down. You need to know who YOUR team's powerhouse is, which is sometimes most easily determined with hard numbers.
Yes, you could ("I could") argue that this information can be maintained without it being displayed on the screen (memory, etc), but do consider this additional team-based (not me-based) sacrifice you're making if you remove the scoreboard.
We did, and we still have the scoreboard today (our NS is about as stock as they come), despite being known as one of the most team-based gameplay environments in pub NS today.
edit:
All I remember is that [FAT]'s Accidental Bowel Movement server had the bestest admin staff 3v4r!!!
!!Team-Fun's Allergic Reaction!!! was good too.
The rest of the servers had bad admins.
NS2 where are you?!?!?
Geez... I shouldn't have read through this topic, because it makes me want to say one thing:
<u>It's not worth it.</u>
...
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Yeah, why bother patching the game. Leave it at 1.0 and if you don't like it, GTFO! /sarcasm
I post here from work so I got plenty of time on my hands. Plus I've created/designed other games so I find the topic of game balance interesting. Yeah you gotta sort through the drama, but some good ideas are out there.
Man, doing an action that maintains the skill balance of a game as disgusting? OMG FLAYRA HIRE THIS MAN!
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Your idea of "skill balance" is to make the game so that everybody is equally bad.
I'd like to sum up a few thoughts I've had reading this.
For many players, servers are based on communities first. You're blind if you can't see the social impact on yourself and others being part of an online community, especially as we move into newer communication technologies. These players either feel that these communities, and their rules, enhance the gameplay or they see something more then the game and enjoy the interactions with people.
For other players, the core gameplay is what keeps them at their PC... understandable and should be expected. I personally think they are missing out, but that's the way it is. I have to accept that kind of player and hope that they can either conform to my gameplay style or find a server that suits them. I don't avoid them but they aren't always happy with how I play the game.
Take from this thread what you will, but I don't think much has been accomplished. There is always going to be something to blame: admins, rules, communities, the game itself... but it's the same tune that's been sung for every game from the beginnings to the ends. I hope you find your niche or make your own, but I'm not sure you're going to find many people to play with without making compromises. In the end we are all people and that is often forgotten behind a keyboard and mouse.
Maybe that's a little too serious, or maybe that goes places you're not comfortable with regarding a thread about NS servers. I'm not trying to get all up in my own ###### here and I don't promise I haven't. I'll get off my soap box now.