<!--quoteo(post=1634700:date=Jun 19 2007, 09:58 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 19 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]1634700[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> And DiscoZombie, the US has more flaws than anyone can list, but if you think it's anywhere close to being the worst first-world country as far as censorship goes, you're way off-target. I live in the United States, and I can go on any forum I want and say
<b>if I were able to kill George Bush, ###### Cheney, and the Supreme Court in an explosion, Pelosi would become president and be able to appoint a whole new Supreme Court and that would be <i>awesome</i></b>
and nothing bad is going to happen to me. I could probably show up outside the White House screaming it and they'd just send a security guard to shoo me away. If I wrote it on a sign I might be detained for a day or something, I dunno how that works, but I'm not going to disappear (unless I look Arab in which case I get to find out what Guantanamo's like). It's going to be a long, long time before the US ever tells adults that they cannot play a video game no matter what.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too want to know what first world country would do something bad to you for saying something like that. In fact, I think the US is the only one that *would*. People were having the FBI show up at their doorstep just for saying they don't like the president for a while after 9/11. If one of us tipped them off that you just said this on an intarweb forum, they'd probably still investigate you today. I don't think the government in Britain would think twice if you said "TONY BLAIR MUST DIE!"
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
edited June 2007
I went to youtube and watched a video showing the different kill methods in manhunt 1. I nearly ruptured from laughter. The *HMHMMH!!MHMH!!MHM!* from the plastic bagged guy, and the protagonist just punching away at the poor fella, then after a couple of kneecaps and punches to the head WHILE he is suffocating, he gets his neck twisted 180.
Ish funny to me. Mostly because I am unable to relate it to reality.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
A quick note:
The game is not banned YET.
There is still an apeals process where rockstar can work through. the last game that was hit with this (Carmagedon) got it reversed in the appeals.
As for the note on censorship: I can't stand it. I really am shocked that it is possible to flat out ban the sale of a video game or any other media that doesn't include anytihng real (this is my way of still condeming the concept of snuff films or pedophillia). I am all for raitings (And I personaly think Man Hunt 1 should have had an AO raiting my self), and lettign people (parents) know just wth is in a game. But flat out banning the sale of it makes me rather sad.
The only reason its banned is because is because some kid murdered his brother with a screw driver and told the court that he was copying a scene out of the first game. I dont think it recieved that much coverage as everyone agreed it was the parents fault for buying the kids and 18 rated game when they were clearly to young.
lets not forget that the first game was banned in Australia, i wonder if the same will happen with the sequal?
But in all fairness the first game sucked. People only bought it because the "ultra violence" was more of a gimmic trying to push boundaries, but no one really cares anymore.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634831:date=Jun 20 2007, 02:15 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 20 2007, 02:15 PM) [snapback]1634831[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So I'm a little confused on the law in the UK. If someone was to obtain the game in one manner or another, and they were caught playing it, what would happen? Is just the sale of the game banned? But playing it is ok?
BTW this thread should not be about US versus UK. Censorship is censorship. You can say you don't agree with the US's view on what should be censored, but we're talking about the UK here. It seems like even if a thread has something to do with a problem with another country, someone has to bring the US in anyway. Grow up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I understand it (I'm a brit), the UK's highest rating is 18 (18 is the top age in the UK, driving, smoking, porn, drinking, voting etc... not 21 like in some places). If it's too bad for that rating, it doesn't get rated. And unlike America where the ERSB (or whatever it is, I think it's the ERSB) can give a game or a film an "unrated" thing and the game can still be sold (by shops that'll carry it), an unrated game/film can't be sold in the UK. It's 18 or not at all. So it's probably just for sale. If you can import it or whatever, I doubt anyone will care.
Plus like Thansal said, they can still appeal and the ban will probably be overturned. Carmageddon was the last game to be "banned" in the UK (ten years ago). They appealed, and it was released (albeit with green blood rather than red). Something similar will probably happen with Manhunt 2. The BBFC probably just wants to be seen as doing something to combat the "moral decay" or whatever of games, since Manhunt was the center of the largest "anti-gaming" thing we've had in the UK since I can remember (a kid's death, which was officially explained as a robbery gone bad, was blamed on Manhunt).
While I can't honestly say I care about Manhunt 2 (since I always thought the first game was fairly boring, just a way to be pointlessly gory for no reason), I am worried that if the ban stands, it'll be a *lot* easier for other pressure groups to get various other things banned. The GTA series springs to mind, for example.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1634862:date=Jun 21 2007, 02:59 AM:name=Mr_JeburtO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr_JeburtO @ Jun 21 2007, 02:59 AM) [snapback]1634862[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Llets not forget that the first game was banned in Australia, i wonder if the same will happen with the sequal? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Given we don't have a R18+ rating, which is what the game deserves. Most likely.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634921:date=Jun 20 2007, 04:35 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mouse @ Jun 20 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]1634921[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Given we don't have a R18+ rating, which is what the game deserves. Most likely. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, basicly the same thing as with the UK....
Seems kinda silly to me. The concept that there is fictional material that is to dangerous in anyone's hands.....
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
Well, violent games do make users more aggressive, even though only the mentally ill would copy any extreme violence from a game.
I don't agree on outright banning the most violent games though. I think it is primarily the responsibility of parents to make sure kids aren't overexposed at to young a age.
And more good news for them! The game is basically banned worldwide now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> (sarcasm)
Nintendo and Sony <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172830.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0" target="_blank">don't allow </a> 3rd party games rated AO to be released. Looks like it's going to need some work done before it comes out.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Normally I would put a lot of thought into a post but this story is pure bull. I paid money for my damn Wii, and I am the one who decides what gets played on it. ME. Sony and Nintendo who are you to police what we play on our systems? What is next? Sony builds chips into their DVD players to prevent playback of any movies they don't think people should watch? Up yours Sony and up yours Nintendo. Today, is a sad day for gamers. This decision is one of the most misguided I have ever heard of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^^^^
thats from a guy who posted thru compys link, it sums up my thoughts nicely.
[edit] it's just because video games are interactive, and having you act out a fake killing is a ton worse than watching a fake killing... [/edit]
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1634925:date=Jun 21 2007, 02:42 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jun 21 2007, 02:42 AM) [snapback]1634925[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Seems kinda silly to me. The concept that there is fictional material that is to dangerous in anyone's hands..... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well let me introduce you to that concept, as certain fictional materials can do considerably harm. An early example would be Goethe's novel Werther which led to 2 000 lives lost in 19th century Europe.
<!--quoteo(post=1634950:date=Jun 20 2007, 03:46 PM:name=Kassinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kassinger @ Jun 20 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1634950[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well let me introduce you to that concept, as certain fictional materials can do considerably harm. An early example would be Goethe's novel Werther which led to 2 000 lives lost in 19th century Europe. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"The Sorrows of Young Werther was Goethe's first major success, turning him from an unknown into a celebrated author practically overnight. Napoleon Bonaparte considered it one of the great works of European literature, thinking so highly of it that as a youth, he wrote a soliloquy in Goethe's style, and that as an adult carried Werther with him on most of his campaigns. It also started the phenomenon known as the "Werther-Fieber" ("Werther Fever"): Young men throughout Europe began to dress in the clothing described for Werther in the novel. It also led to some of the first known examples of copycat suicide; supposedly more than 2,000 readers committed suicide."
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634956:date=Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1634956[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was 1774. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Late 18th century and early 19th century then.
<!--quoteo(post=1634956:date=Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1634956[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe people just sucked back then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, your explanation sucks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
HELL YEAH! THEY NEED TO BAN THIS SICK FILTH! IT'LL MAKE KIDS KILL PEOPLE AND STUFF!!!
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to watch 'Hostel' and 'saw' which are both perfectly harmless and legitimate forms of entertainment that need no censoring or banning :p
<i>Warning: Post may contain traces of sarcasm</i>
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
Well you know Gem, ever since the NES I've been crushing turtles and stabbing land-dwelling octopuses. I should stab the octopussies that are Sony and Nintendo.
Seriously, the Manhunt games aren't <i>needed.</i> They've been created for the sole purpose of getting banned, basically. Rockstar, basically, wants to get their craps and giggles from this and piss off a few lawyers so more people will buy GTA4.
Plus, really, I'm scared that a kid might get their hands on the game. If some of the animations freak <i>me</i> out, I'd bet it's worse for a kid.
Anyhow, *Puts on the flame retardant suit.* I expect to get flamed, since most of the people who are for free speech like to flame those who have an opinion differing from theirs.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1635081:date=Jun 21 2007, 02:14 PM:name=cshank4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4 @ Jun 21 2007, 02:14 PM) [snapback]1635081[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Meh, I'm for banning the game. Seriously, the Manhunt games aren't <i>needed.</i> They've been created for the sole purpose of getting banned, basically. Rockstar, basically, wants to get their craps and giggles from this and piss off a few lawyers so more people will buy GTA4.
Plus, really, I'm scared that a kid might get their hands on the game. If some of the animations freak <i>me</i> out, I'd bet it's worse for a kid. Anyhow, *Puts on the flame retardant suit.* I expect to get flamed, since most of the people who are for free speech like to flame those who have an opinion differing from theirs. Gg, guys. Gg. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The counter argument to actualy limited free speach (limiting some one's rights before they infring on another's) is knowing where to stop.
So long as you do not infringe on someone elses 'inalianable rights' (Life, liberty, persuit of happienes), then your rights (free speach in this case) shall not be limited.
Sure, this lets alot of crap through the filter (Hate speach, letting people publish horribly stupid things, and crapptastic games). However it doesn't block ANYTHING that should not be. It is also a very simple, very deffined line that it is clear when some one steps over it.
However if we alow for certain things we find objectionable to be banned then we no longer have a clear line.
Sure, I think manhunt is rather silly, and serves no real purpose. HOWEVER, if we ban Manhunt because it is horribly gruesum, what about movies that are like that? I like Saw, I will probably like Hostel when I get around to renting it, I love Ichi the Killer. And all of those are considerably more gruseum then anything in Manhunt simply beacuse they look real.
A poem by attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (lots of controversy over it, yada yada, go read Wiki) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we can go with Voltaire (again, not actualy him, some one else, just attributed to him): <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagre with alot of thigns protected under the right to free speach (Racists are a good start), but I do not belive that we can pick and choose who has a right to say what.
(btw, perfectly rational discussion style argument with out flaming you you silly poopy head <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
<!--quoteo(post=1634820:date=Jun 20 2007, 08:00 AM:name=Starchy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Starchy @ Jun 20 2007, 08:00 AM) [snapback]1634820[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people wish to kill each other after playing this game, let them....I believe it's called Natural Selection? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1635025:date=Jun 21 2007, 02:40 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Jun 21 2007, 02:40 PM) [snapback]1635025[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> HELL YEAH! THEY NEED TO BAN THIS SICK FILTH! IT'LL MAKE KIDS KILL PEOPLE AND STUFF!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, even though violence in the media doesn't directly influence somebody to kill, it does desensitize them and may encourage violence to a smaller degree.
Just because somebody is desensitized doesn't mean they will make a choice to commit violence. Freewill and desensitization are not necessarily linked together at all.
That's like saying hey I like cheese and thereby I'm a nymhomaniac.
~edit~
Tycho, I can support free speech and not support things I don't agree with. Does that make me normal? Yes. Does that mean I'm not defending free speech? No. To say they are mutually exclusive is unfair and would mean that there is nobody who supports free speech. You are thinking of things in the boolean when in fact they are "shades of gray".
It's funny that so many people get so hot under the collar about things like this. I can definitely see a point in restricting sales of the game, to try and prevent it from getting to children/starting mayhem.
Although, they COULD release Manhunt 2 on PC and Sony or Nintendo wouldn't be able to say anything. Sony and Nintendo don't want this sort of thing to reflect on themselves, and PS3 and Wii are their machines, so I think it would be pretty weird if they <i>couldn't</i> select what got sold.
And so far as I know, Wal-Mart and Best Buy and etc. also don't stock porn. But I'm pretty sure that if there were more AO games and whatnot and the demand for them, certain adult-only shops would start carrying them.
My point is that the government is not banning it; a series of private organizations are trying to restrict it. And there's alternatives to Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, Wal-Mart and EB if Rockstar really wants the game to be released as it is. It won't be convenient to get, but that's fine.
Comments
And DiscoZombie, the US has more flaws than anyone can list, but if you think it's anywhere close to being the worst first-world country as far as censorship goes, you're way off-target. I live in the United States, and I can go on any forum I want and say
<b>if I were able to kill George Bush, ###### Cheney, and the Supreme Court in an explosion, Pelosi would become president and be able to appoint a whole new Supreme Court and that would be <i>awesome</i></b>
and nothing bad is going to happen to me. I could probably show up outside the White House screaming it and they'd just send a security guard to shoo me away. If I wrote it on a sign I might be detained for a day or something, I dunno how that works, but I'm not going to disappear (unless I look Arab in which case I get to find out what Guantanamo's like). It's going to be a long, long time before the US ever tells adults that they cannot play a video game no matter what.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too want to know what first world country would do something bad to you for saying something like that. In fact, I think the US is the only one that *would*. People were having the FBI show up at their doorstep just for saying they don't like the president for a while after 9/11. If one of us tipped them off that you just said this on an intarweb forum, they'd probably still investigate you today. I don't think the government in Britain would think twice if you said "TONY BLAIR MUST DIE!"
I nearly ruptured from laughter. The *HMHMMH!!MHMH!!MHM!* from the plastic bagged guy, and the protagonist just punching away at the poor fella, then after a couple of kneecaps and punches to the head WHILE he is suffocating, he gets his neck twisted 180.
Ish funny to me.
Mostly because I am unable to relate it to reality.
also; lol @ decapitation + monkey.
The game is not banned YET.
There is still an apeals process where rockstar can work through. the last game that was hit with this (Carmagedon) got it reversed in the appeals.
As for the note on censorship:
I can't stand it. I really am shocked that it is possible to flat out ban the sale of a video game or any other media that doesn't include anytihng real (this is my way of still condeming the concept of snuff films or pedophillia). I am all for raitings (And I personaly think Man Hunt 1 should have had an AO raiting my self), and lettign people (parents) know just wth is in a game. But flat out banning the sale of it makes me rather sad.
Oh well.
lets not forget that the first game was banned in Australia, i wonder if the same will happen with the sequal?
But in all fairness the first game sucked. People only bought it because the "ultra violence" was more of a gimmic trying to push boundaries, but no one really cares anymore.
So I'm a little confused on the law in the UK. If someone was to obtain the game in one manner or another, and they were caught playing it, what would happen? Is just the sale of the game banned? But playing it is ok?
BTW this thread should not be about US versus UK. Censorship is censorship. You can say you don't agree with the US's view on what should be censored, but we're talking about the UK here. It seems like even if a thread has something to do with a problem with another country, someone has to bring the US in anyway. Grow up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I understand it (I'm a brit), the UK's highest rating is 18 (18 is the top age in the UK, driving, smoking, porn, drinking, voting etc... not 21 like in some places). If it's too bad for that rating, it doesn't get rated. And unlike America where the ERSB (or whatever it is, I think it's the ERSB) can give a game or a film an "unrated" thing and the game can still be sold (by shops that'll carry it), an unrated game/film can't be sold in the UK. It's 18 or not at all.
So it's probably just for sale. If you can import it or whatever, I doubt anyone will care.
Plus like Thansal said, they can still appeal and the ban will probably be overturned. Carmageddon was the last game to be "banned" in the UK (ten years ago). They appealed, and it was released (albeit with green blood rather than red). Something similar will probably happen with Manhunt 2. The BBFC probably just wants to be seen as doing something to combat the "moral decay" or whatever of games, since Manhunt was the center of the largest "anti-gaming" thing we've had in the UK since I can remember (a kid's death, which was officially explained as a robbery gone bad, was blamed on Manhunt).
While I can't honestly say I care about Manhunt 2 (since I always thought the first game was fairly boring, just a way to be pointlessly gory for no reason), I am worried that if the ban stands, it'll be a *lot* easier for other pressure groups to get various other things banned. The GTA series springs to mind, for example.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given we don't have a R18+ rating, which is what the game deserves. Most likely.
Given we don't have a R18+ rating, which is what the game deserves. Most likely.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, basicly the same thing as with the UK....
Seems kinda silly to me. The concept that there is fictional material that is to dangerous in anyone's hands.....
I don't agree on outright banning the most violent games though. I think it is primarily the responsibility of parents to make sure kids aren't overexposed at to young a age.
Nintendo and Sony <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172830.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0" target="_blank">don't allow </a> 3rd party games rated AO to be released. Looks like it's going to need some work done before it comes out.
^^^^^
thats from a guy who posted thru compys link, it sums up my thoughts nicely.
[edit]
it's just because video games are interactive, and having you act out a fake killing is a ton worse than watching a fake killing...
[/edit]
Seems kinda silly to me. The concept that there is fictional material that is to dangerous in anyone's hands.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well let me introduce you to that concept, as certain fictional materials can do considerably harm. An early example would be Goethe's novel Werther which led to 2 000 lives lost in 19th century Europe.
Well let me introduce you to that concept, as certain fictional materials can do considerably harm. An early example would be Goethe's novel Werther which led to 2 000 lives lost in 19th century Europe.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How?
How?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straight from Wikipdia:
"The Sorrows of Young Werther was Goethe's first major success, turning him from an unknown into a celebrated author practically overnight. Napoleon Bonaparte considered it one of the great works of European literature, thinking so highly of it that as a youth, he wrote a soliloquy in Goethe's style, and that as an adult carried Werther with him on most of his campaigns. It also started the phenomenon known as the "Werther-Fieber" ("Werther Fever"): Young men throughout Europe began to dress in the clothing described for Werther in the novel. It also led to some of the first known examples of copycat suicide; supposedly more than 2,000 readers committed suicide."
It was 1774. Maybe people just sucked back then.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Late 18th century and early 19th century then.
<!--quoteo(post=1634956:date=Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Jun 21 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1634956[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe people just sucked back then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, your explanation sucks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
No, your explanation sucks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO U!
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to watch 'Hostel' and 'saw' which are both perfectly harmless and legitimate forms of entertainment that need no censoring or banning :p
<i>Warning: Post may contain traces of sarcasm</i>
Seriously, the Manhunt games aren't <i>needed.</i> They've been created for the sole purpose of getting banned, basically. Rockstar, basically, wants to get their craps and giggles from this and piss off a few lawyers so more people will buy GTA4.
Plus, really, I'm scared that a kid might get their hands on the game. If some of the animations freak <i>me</i> out, I'd bet it's worse for a kid.
Anyhow, *Puts on the flame retardant suit.* I expect to get flamed, since most of the people who are for free speech like to flame those who have an opinion differing from theirs.
Gg, guys. Gg.
Meh, I'm for banning the game.
Seriously, the Manhunt games aren't <i>needed.</i> They've been created for the sole purpose of getting banned, basically. Rockstar, basically, wants to get their craps and giggles from this and piss off a few lawyers so more people will buy GTA4.
Plus, really, I'm scared that a kid might get their hands on the game. If some of the animations freak <i>me</i> out, I'd bet it's worse for a kid.
Anyhow, *Puts on the flame retardant suit.* I expect to get flamed, since most of the people who are for free speech like to flame those who have an opinion differing from theirs.
Gg, guys. Gg.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The counter argument to actualy limited free speach (limiting some one's rights before they infring on another's) is knowing where to stop.
So long as you do not infringe on someone elses 'inalianable rights' (Life, liberty, persuit of happienes), then your rights (free speach in this case) shall not be limited.
Sure, this lets alot of crap through the filter (Hate speach, letting people publish horribly stupid things, and crapptastic games). However it doesn't block ANYTHING that should not be. It is also a very simple, very deffined line that it is clear when some one steps over it.
However if we alow for certain things we find objectionable to be banned then we no longer have a clear line.
Sure, I think manhunt is rather silly, and serves no real purpose. HOWEVER, if we ban Manhunt because it is horribly gruesum, what about movies that are like that? I like Saw, I will probably like Hostel when I get around to renting it, I love Ichi the Killer. And all of those are considerably more gruseum then anything in Manhunt simply beacuse they look real.
A poem by attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (lots of controversy over it, yada yada, go read Wiki)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we can go with Voltaire (again, not actualy him, some one else, just attributed to him):
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagre with alot of thigns protected under the right to free speach (Racists are a good start), but I do not belive that we can pick and choose who has a right to say what.
(btw, perfectly rational discussion style argument with out flaming you you silly poopy head <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
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Say I've never heard of that game! Is it hawt?
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
HELL YEAH! THEY NEED TO BAN THIS SICK FILTH! IT'LL MAKE KIDS KILL PEOPLE AND STUFF!!!
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Well, even though violence in the media doesn't directly influence somebody to kill, it does desensitize them and may encourage violence to a smaller degree.
That's like saying hey I like cheese and thereby I'm a nymhomaniac.
~edit~
Tycho, I can support free speech and not support things I don't agree with. Does that make me normal? Yes. Does that mean I'm not defending free speech? No. To say they are mutually exclusive is unfair and would mean that there is nobody who supports free speech. You are thinking of things in the boolean when in fact they are "shades of gray".
Although, they COULD release Manhunt 2 on PC and Sony or Nintendo wouldn't be able to say anything. Sony and Nintendo don't want this sort of thing to reflect on themselves, and PS3 and Wii are their machines, so I think it would be pretty weird if they <i>couldn't</i> select what got sold.
And so far as I know, Wal-Mart and Best Buy and etc. also don't stock porn. But I'm pretty sure that if there were more AO games and whatnot and the demand for them, certain adult-only shops would start carrying them.
My point is that the government is not banning it; a series of private organizations are trying to restrict it. And there's alternatives to Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, Wal-Mart and EB if Rockstar really wants the game to be released as it is. It won't be convenient to get, but that's fine.