Do The New Patches Make It Too Hard As A Marine?
Drizzt
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4128Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The title says it all.</div> Okay, I like patches as much as anyone else, but last Sunday(11-24-02), I must have played thirty games as a Marine, and in every single one, we lost. And it's not just the server. Every three matches or so, I switched. Here's a list of the scenarios:
1. Game starts. Five seconds later, we're being rushed by the entire Kharaa team, while we only have one spawn portal up. Oops, we're all dead! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. Game starts. We get a little base up and running. Then, all of a sudden, we're attacked by a Fade. He shoots several rockets, and retreats to a giant room FILLED with offense and defense chambers, where after being healed, he then rushes back to repeat the scenario. Even more deadly with multiple Fades. How do they get the hives so quickly? <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
3. Game is going excellently. We have a large base, and control one of the hive locations. Then, Fades come in and do the basic premise of the second scenario. We lose the hive point, and ten seconds later, our base is being rushed by an entire TEAM of Onos. We can hold them off for a while, but the Kharaa have us boxed in using the rooms filled with chambers technique. No way to escape and set up a little emergency base. We're screwed. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those three scenarios happened over and over. I eventually decided to quit, not because of how long I had been playing, but because I was sick of the Kharaa always winning. I think that the Natural Selection team should come out with a new patch that beefs up the marines, and that makes the Fade and Onos MUCH harder to get. What do you think?
1. Game starts. Five seconds later, we're being rushed by the entire Kharaa team, while we only have one spawn portal up. Oops, we're all dead! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. Game starts. We get a little base up and running. Then, all of a sudden, we're attacked by a Fade. He shoots several rockets, and retreats to a giant room FILLED with offense and defense chambers, where after being healed, he then rushes back to repeat the scenario. Even more deadly with multiple Fades. How do they get the hives so quickly? <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
3. Game is going excellently. We have a large base, and control one of the hive locations. Then, Fades come in and do the basic premise of the second scenario. We lose the hive point, and ten seconds later, our base is being rushed by an entire TEAM of Onos. We can hold them off for a while, but the Kharaa have us boxed in using the rooms filled with chambers technique. No way to escape and set up a little emergency base. We're screwed. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those three scenarios happened over and over. I eventually decided to quit, not because of how long I had been playing, but because I was sick of the Kharaa always winning. I think that the Natural Selection team should come out with a new patch that beefs up the marines, and that makes the Fade and Onos MUCH harder to get. What do you think?
Comments
It is possible to win as marines, IF the marines are half competent, and IF the commander know what's he's doing, then it's not hard to kick the alien's **obscenity**.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) don't have the entire team building, have a few posted as sentrys ready to gun down incoming skulks
2) siege turret the *beep*er
2) 2 hives already and you don't hold one of thiers? odd
2) 2 hives and you havn't expanded at all?
3) DONT BUNKER DOWN!!!!!!!!!
3) this aint real life (where bunkering in is a good thing)
3) build a phase gate between the hive at the marine spawn
3) STRATEGIC TURRET PLACWEMENT (not farming)
basic strats:
1) expand, alot
2) phase gates, with the use of these everything that is connected by them is part of your base
3) siege turrets, its how you kill hives
4) build orders, for those of you who play RTS you will understand the concept, there needs to be a good build order, folow it
ummm yah, I have been in pleanty of games that have gone both ways (true mroe alien victories, but that is b/c marines don't work well to gether, and crappy commies)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this is not a weapons mod<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there are pistol variations (weapons up grades)
as for flame thrower, it is a possibilitie if Flay can get a true volumetric flame thrower working (and it will be fn amazing to look at b/c of the particel engine)
By pistol variations I mean like a 20 round version of the regular one, or a more powerful one with less ammo, etc
Whoa, it's already too much like <i>Aliens</i>... a flamethrower would put it over the line..
As for your little base getting Wall of Lamed... why didn't you expand more? Never EVER let the Kharaa box you into your own base. Example: On eclipse, try and take the Triad and Station Access West points, build some turrets there, then you only have to worry about Station Access East which is really a big long choke point. So what if the Fades keep rushing in and out of the hallway if you can contain them and drop a welder for someone to repair splash damage?
As for Onos rushes the second they get the third hive... IMHO the Onos needs some serious reworking, but that's just me. They should be limited in number or made more difficult to get.
All of that said, I still think the game is pretty well-balanced. Playing 3 or 4 games every night I usually see Wins split about 50/50 between the teams.
Find some way to "tether" players to their respective spawnrooms for a set amount of time. Make the excuse that the Kharaa hive needs to establish its presence in the area or something, and that the Marines need to fortify the position. Unless players are complete retards they would get a decent base up and running before a rush could hit them.
but yes, Electro gets it, the skulk rush is a simple thing to stop, it just takes some 1/2 decent marines (something we seem to be missing alot of)
As a marine dont be scared to die, if they have fades n your got your heavy armour n hmg get up close to a corner then jump the fade n run the **obscenity** down. The hmg does sweet **obscenity** all at range and they can just run back to defense chambers.. you have to kill them outright, which means jumping the poor sod with a hmg at point blank n watching him try to flee futilely.
Early on you can out spawn aliens with enough spawn points, so who cares if you die and lose your lmg and no armour *shock* knife em if your out of ammo dont sit in a corner calling for you commander to rescue you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Wow, that turned into a full-fledged strategy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(edit) Heh, There were 2 posts when I started writing this.
its all been said, so ill keep things brief
and try to stray from what has been said.
well basically, judging from what you said Drizzt your team(s) couldnt had been too competant, and any good commander would have known how best to expand, upgrade weapons, armour, get new stuff, trash hives, the lot ;d
generally, public servers have a very poor level of play for marines, commanders are generally on thier first few commands, or they are just not yet skilled, usually you have the odd few people who wont follow orders, etc. I only know two single UK servers that usually have competant commanders, and they are passworded (although always full). In them about half the games ive played marines have won, now I've only recently begun playing on these two servers a lot but so far its been good <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
hmm what a load of crap ive just typed.
If aliens get 3 hives marines deserve to lose.
1 HMG clip will kill ANYTHING other then MAYBE an Onos. No way no how a Fade could take an entire clip from a HMG at close range. You will have to send me a demo before I believe it.
I mean seriously you must have some VERY bad aim (It was lag right? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), I can't count how many times Ive been taken out by a HMG before I can even get 3 Acid Rockets off.
Skulk Rushes:
I've seen this defended against many times, most of the reason it succeeds is because everyone is spread out in the open while in their base. I find if Marines make a little firing line or gather round their CC or something and watch both entrances, its very easy to fend off a Skulk Rush.
marines can take any foe if their commander just knows what hes doing.
some commanders forget things like
* armour and weapon upgrades
* motion tracking (essential)
* phase gates + lightly turreted bases are better than turret farmed bases
* skulks and sometimes fades can hide behind turret factories and bite them to death if not placed properly.
* it is essential to secure a hive ASAP, and to not stop at that, to try and advance, securing every location you take with turrets and phase gates and maybe sieges if it helps along the way.
* other stuff ;d
and you mention 4 skulks taking 7 marines, well you marines were obviously either not observant enough or just had bad aim, and the skulks were probably quite good munchers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (although they dont have to be if the marines are bad enough).
a group of 4 highly skilled aliens will take a team of 8 newbies just because the game is an RTS, any advantage in technology is always huge.
Onos are NOT too powerful, neither are fades.
if an fade and/or onos is attacking a base, the commander should signal to other players of this attack and allow them to phase gate in with thier HMGs, HAs, and GLs, (if its just fades you are facing then this might not be possible, but two marines persuing a fade (round corners) with no fear of dying can take a fade, even if not at first try)
3 HMG people defending a base against a lone onos will shread an onos before it can kill a single turret or person often.
Grenades are bugged, and will be fixed in 1.03. Next, someone commented about putting an HMG clip into a fade and it didn't die. That means the person was thinking they were shooting a fade, and in fact were shooting the wall, or something... because I've killed hundreds of fades (I play too much), often as a light marine (usually with an HMG). The trick is to not attack alone, and to always be agressive. You'll notice that fades attack and run, right? Well, if you attack, and keep the pressure, the fades will die, and die fast.
Next, motion tracking breaks alot now, for some reason. When that works 100%, the marines will be alot less weak. They'll know where ALL moving aliens are at all times. Last night it actually worked once, and holy did it help alot. Couple the blue circles with the sounds, and you know what's coming at you, where they are, when to start shooting.
Ravlen
1 HMG clip will kill ANYTHING other then MAYBE an Onos. No way no how a Fade could take an entire clip from a HMG at close range. You will have to send me a demo before I believe it.
I mean seriously you must have some VERY bad aim (It was lag right? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), I can't count how many times Ive been taken out by a HMG before I can even get 3 Acid Rockets off.
Skulk Rushes:
I've seen this defended against many times, most of the reason it succeeds is because everyone is spread out in the open while in their base. I find if Marines make a little firing line or gather round their CC or something and watch both entrances, its very easy to fend off a Skulk Rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you have Carapace level 3 when you got attacked by a HMG?
A fade can survive 3-4 seconds under HMG fire before dying. That's a lot yes. But if there's 2 HMG => 1.5-2 seconds to save your fade's **obscenity** is really short.
Let the team FIX the bugs first and THEN they'll start balancing the game.
Patience. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I was just wondering something, what will the next alien strategy be when marines get used to how to shoot at us. It doesnt take long to kill a skulk with a lmg or a pistol, so when the marines can aim well what can we (as aliens) do? Some maps have hardly any hiding places for skulks so we can't ambush.
Hmmm....Better check out the appropriate place for Kharra strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They were coming in like marines, though. The Skulks would just swarm in, an endless stream, since they had so many players and could get back quickly. The Marines need to have the turrets cheaper again, and should get some wide range weapons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines get on top of the big rush by the aliens and with the huge amount of players you won't see the aliens for a while because it takes AGES to spawn back in with a large amount of players on the team waiting to spawn as the aliens can only spawn in one at a time.
Unless you watch many games with people of the same skill I don't think its proper to make a decision of whether its balanced though.
LoL, in v 1.02 i've seen pretty much nothing but marine ownage on any map with more than 14 players
If they had rooms filled with D chambers you should have gotten seiges up. They would constantly blast the rooms, they might not kill anything (due to the bug + many chambers) but they will make the whole area inaccessable to the aliens.